Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[Nguz95]

I figured since there was not a current thread about Ganon's metagame as it currently stands, I would make one. I want this thread to be dedicated to expanding Ganon's meta and finding new, innovative ways to use the tools the PMBR has already given us, so please, refrain from suggestion possible character improvements.

I would like to start with punishing opponents from your shield. When someone makes contact with your shield, what do you rely on? Some characters, like Mario and Olimar, have many moves that go underneath ganon's shield grab. Also, most of Ganon's areials are a little slow to punish characters with low commitment moves (Sonic/Sheik, etc).

I think Ganon mains need to identify ways of dealing with different character archetypes, as his moveset doesn't cover every opponent's option intuitively. For short characters, I find that wd jab/ftilt is effective. For low commitment characters, I find that nair oos has the best chance of hitting them. Honestly, I find that keeping them away from my shield is more effective, as they can capitalize on my lack of mobility if they aren't committing.

Thoughts?

 

[ShadowGanon]

I would like to start with punishing opponents from your shield. When someone makes contact with your shield, what do you rely on? Some characters, like Mario and Olimar, have many moves that go underneath ganon's shield grab. Also, most of Ganon's areials are a little slow to punish characters with low commitment moves.

Short hop dair. It's instinctive for me to do this because of the way I played Ganon in Brawl.

 

[Yanoss1313]

wait, there's isn't another thread that's already called "Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !" ?

 

[teluoborg]

Nah yanoss the meta thread is for discussing Ganon as a character and where he stands in the game, so it's a bit different from what Nguz is doing here.
So yeah Nguz you might wanna a change the title to something like "Gameplay discussion" so that people don't get mixed up.


What I use OOS : Uair, Nair, Dair and up B. Up B is a nice alternative to Ganon's bad grab range, but you have to be 100% sure you'll hit with it.
I'm also trying to get WD OOS consistent so that I can WD Jab or Ftilt to punish at a very long range, or retreat when I'm being pressured without having to roll.

 

[Nguz95]

That's fair. i'll change the title. I think each of Ganon's aerials punish different moves oos. Diar is the slowest, and therefore can only punish the laggiest of moves. Most dash attacks and smashes fall into this category. Bair is more useful when the opponent is behind you, but it is his most reliable aerial. I've been experimenting with nair, but it seems I need to get the timing right so I get the hitbox out fast. Uair might be the best option. It could be similar to the way axe uses pikachu's uair out of shield.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

Critique my Dorf plox.
I can see I was dropping edgeguards like a mofo that match, and i always go into "double jump b-air mode" when im uncomfortable. its one of my worst ganon habits that carried over from melee, honestly i was missing everything especially those first 3 stocks... .
i'll make it a point to learn dacus and the G-vortex (i refuse to call it the arty vortex)
dont watch the rest of the video where i perform the worst lucario gameplay EVER

 

[teluoborg]

You gotta learn to L cancel those Dairs son.

 

[Nguz95]

Props for bringing that first game back man. That's hard to do.
In terms of criticism, I think you should reconsider the way you interact with your opponent. A lot of Ganon's approach options are not safe, so it's easy to get yourself in trouble by whiffing an aerial or missing a Flame Choke. On a technical level, shffling your aerials more will make nearly all your approaches safer. I saw you use your full hop almost exclusively, which I don't advise. Ganon has an excellent shffl game, so you should be taking advantage of it more. That's not to say you shouldn't be full hopping, as part of Ganon's bait game relies on full hop aerials, but you should definitely shffl a lot more.

On a strategic level, I think you initiated the conflict too often. I saw you approach far more than I saw DK approaching. You used dash attack, fair, wizard's foot, and flame choke when the DK was stationary. Depending on the situation, the DK either dodged your approach, grabbed you, or hit you right out of the air. What's important to note is that He was the one who responded to your actions, not the other way around. He took advantage of the times you left yourself open, not the other way around. Ganon is characterized by his punish game, not his approach. He is at his best when he forces the opponent to act in a predictable way. I would recommend you watch your opponent very carefully, look for an opening (a whiffed aerial, a dash attack, etc.), and capitalize on his mistake.

Here's a match between Arty and Rat.

Often, instead of trying to force a hit on Rat, Arty would wait for Wolf to approach, and then punish him with a jab, ftilt, or an aerial. He would bait Wolf's approaches with fast-fall nairs, bairs, and platform drops instead of outright approaching Rat. It's a subtle difference, but it kept Arty from over-extending himself and letting Wolf punish him.

Anyway, great match. It was really exciting, and you showed a lot of resolve after a poor start.

 

[Nguz95]

Sorry to double post, but I think this is worth noting. If you short hop, do a uair right away, and land, you land in either the IASA frames or the autocancel frames of the move. That means you can follow up immediately with a jab or an ftilt or a grab. I've found myself getting grabs before my opponents in they shield the uair. If this is already common knowledge, then forgive me.

 

[teluoborg]

All aerials autocancel from a short hop except Fair.
And Nair can be SHFF autocanceled (aka SHFFAC). It's very good because the second hit of the Nair comes out right before you touch the ground so it gives a pretty good advantage on shield, or even for zoning.

I haven't tried it since but in 2.5 you could SH Bair and waveland.

 

[Yanoss1313]

All aerials autocancel from a short hop except Fair.
And Nair can be SHFF autocanceled (aka SHFFAC). It's very good because the second hit of the Nair comes out right before you touch the ground so it gives a pretty good advantage on shield, or even for zoning.

I haven't tried it since but in 2.5 you could SH Bair and waveland.

i'm pretty sure "SHFFAC" works for Bair too, but the timing's a bit weird.

 

[Nguz95]

The ac nair is the one arty uses a lot. It's pretty nice

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

wise words.

hai sensei

 

[Yanoss1313]

I just had a thought regarding auto-canceling Nair, i feel like it might be possible to combo into a DACUS from it at some percents... the inputs are a bit strict when combing the two techniques though... Hmm, i need to test this. AWAYYY!

 

[Nguz95]

that actually sounds amazing. It would be super fast, and you could cover a ton of area just by using it. I need to try that out too.

 

[bandi]

I just had a thought regarding auto-canceling Nair, i feel like it might be possible to combo into a DACUS from it at some percents... the inputs are a bit strict when combing the two techniques though... Hmm, i need to test this. AWAYYY!

Does it work?

Whilst I'm here : How do you do the stomp after ledge grabing and jumping upwards? I saw someone pull it off in a video (don't know which exactly).

 

[Nguz95]

Are you talking about doing the stomp at ground level, or are you referring to doing the stomp immediately after jumping over the edge?
If it's the former, you need to press the c-stick away from the edge, jump immediately (works best with tap jump) and smash the c-stick down. Make sure not to fastfall it. The timing is pretty strict, so practice it a little. If you're really fast, you can drop off the edge by pressing down on the control stick instead of using the c-stick.

If it's the latter, just press x or y while on the edge and jam the c-stick down. This timing is not strict, so don't worry about it too much.
Edit: I am currently incompetent at dacus, so I can't comment on your previous question. I'm sorry.

 

[bandi]

Just turned on the Wii for the sake of trying : lol, was that easy :D, thank you for your advice !


Edit: This wasn't worth a double post, but I don't know if this is really usable in tournament play : when the enemy is near the edge and you're holding onto the edge as ganon, you may jump and execute an aerial flame choke. If succesful, immediately follow up with a down smash. The opponent should be sent up flying away from the stage. Now, if you're fast enough perform a Dair. Only works at low percentages; Ganon must be facing the center of the stage.

 

[Nguz95]

Just turned on the Wii for the sake of trying : lol, was that easy :D, thank you for your advice !


Edit: This wasn't worth a double post, but I don't know if this is really usable in tournament play : when the enemy is near the edge and you're holding onto the edge as ganon, you may jump and execute an aerial flame choke. If succesful, immediately follow up with a down smash. The opponent should be sent up flying away from the stage. Now, if you're fast enough perform a Dair. Only works at low percentages; Ganon must be facing the center of the stage.

Your edit is actually a very important mixup. I would recommend finishing with Wiz Kick instead, as connecting with both hits of dsmash is not as likely as hitting the kick. On floaties, the best finish (at mid%) is utilt, as it has very substantial knockback. Also, edgeguarding with Ganon is often more about dropzone fairs and short hop bairs than it is about dair. Dair is at its best when you use the hitboxes to punish a predictable recovery. Tethers and recoveries like cfal's fit into this category.

 

[bandi]

Your edit is actually a very important mixup. I would recommend finishing with Wiz Kick instead, as connecting with both hits of dsmash is not as likely as hitting the kick. On floaties, the best finish (at mid%) is utilt, as it has very substantial knockback. Also, edgeguarding with Ganon is often more about dropzone fairs and short hop bairs than it is about dair. Dair is at its best when you use the hitboxes to punish a predictable recovery. Tethers and recoveries like cfal's fit into this category.

I often use Wiz Kick as an edge guarding tool. But Wiz Kick wouldn't work with this mixup, because the kicks send them up high, jumping across them and finishing with Dair often works for me. If they're not high enough I often finish the combo with Wiz Kick/Bair/Fair. Although I would recommend using Fair because the range is magnificent and you can control the trajectory of Ganondorf with a timed fastfall.

Edit: Should've mentioned that this technique works at low-mid percentages depending on the character type. Against floaties I'd advise using Bair. Against Zelda it's a lil' bit tricky because this matchup is quite difficult for Ganondorf.
E.g.: Dthrow => Bair doesn't work always, because Zelda will often counter with either Bair/Fair or Nayru's love. What I do in those situations is Uair followed by a Fair/Bair depending on the DI by Zelda. Well, I digress at that point.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

What are Ganon's best stages?

I feel like Green Hill Zone might be good, but I'm not sure. It's small enough to keep the pressure on, and the blast zones are decent (not too big, not too small). It's mostly open, so chain grabs are a go, but the platform also lets you do some wave landing junk.

Any thoughts?

 

[CORY]

i personally like yoshi's story melee, though that's really high/high reward ;x i also kind of like wario ware, since it's easy to kill there, as well.

though, i'm not good at counterpicking, yet. i think i mostly just don't like big stages that allow a lot of mobility for people. i'd rather keep them close and fight **** out like a real man warlock.

 

[teluoborg]

It depends on the matchup imo.
When I don't want the opponent to be running around then small stages like YS, WW, FoD and GH are very good.
When I'm playing against someone that has better range and disjoint (like a swordie or Ivysaur) I'm more comfortable on bigger stages like PS2 or FD.

some weird stuff will happen on FoD when the side platforms are low, I recommend you try side B.

 

[CORY]

i just personally dislike fod. i hate those platforms when they do the awkward "low, but not quite gone" thing, since it just screws up so much in the way of aerials, attempted edgeguards, and trying to cover options when the opponent's on the edge. : /

like, i dislike it no matter what character i am.

 

[Nguz95]

Lylat is secretly a great Ganon stage. The platforms are low enough that you can do whatever you want, and the slopes on the edges make it harder to get tethered or projectile camped. Also, everyone hates the stage, so you can win pretty easily with just the surprise factor.

 

[Yanoss1313]

i know it's a boring pick, but i'm all about Battlefield. Platforms are the perfect height to wave-land all over them, allows to to cover huge areas.

 

[Nguz95]

Those are my thoughts exactly. The only thing that keeps me from going battlefield more is how familiar everyone else is with it.

 

[bandi]

Yesterday I was at my first tourney ever and it was just pure awesomeness. It was very insightful and I figured Ganondorf out as character, well somehow. I played against one of the best Falco's in Vienna (Melee). While I'm not the best player (far from it, to be honest) I've got a good understanding of the "basics".
He 3 stocked me in our first match and I couldn't believe what was happening. My body wasn't ready, contrary to Reggie. Due to the fact that he hadn't much been playing P:M I 2 or 3 stocked him with Ganon. After I explained to him what Ganondorf is capable of (told him all there was), I hardly was able to even take 1 stock from him.

I'm not in here for the salt, but Ganon gets ***** of projectiles. Furthermore i'm stressing out that I'm not a well versed Ganon player, as mentioned above I'm "good" but not really "that" good!
The MU isn't really in Ganons favour because every approach gets abborted by Falco's lasers. It's quite difficult to get something going, even with the foot. When I get him he's done for, but that doesn't happen all too often.
Any advice, suggestion or should I just get over it that Ganon is low-tier and main Giga-Bowser? :D

ps.: The last bit is a joke, just in case flame is inc =) .

 

[CORY]

well, as you said, you were outplayed : p if someone's that much better than you, it's hard to do anything without getting way better first : p

but, with falco, yeah, lasers shut you down. you need to find out how he likes to laser and goad him into a pattern, then get over/around it and hit him into a tech/offstage situation. if you can force a tech, you have a good chance to get another 50 damage (maybe a kill or at least offstage) with a solid read (so, say you hit a fair at 0%, falco techs midstage and you read it: run up, dair-fair or dair-dair-read his tech option into a wizkick, etc...).

if you can actually close the distance on your terms it gets much simpler. smaller platformed stages help with this, so bf, yoshi's melee, ps2 (kinda...), smashville (to an extent), etc... use wavelands on the platforms to help move quicker and be less predictable.

just remember that you really only need one good hit on a spacie to set up a kill. you might need to eat a few misses getting used to how they tech and react, but that one solid hit and read can usually net you a kill.

 

[bandi]

He uses Falco's lasers extensively as approaching tool, leaving me no time to think let alone react. They're all well spaced/used and he's playing very smart. However powershielding would be an option but always succeding with it is a difficult feat.

 

[foxygrandpa]

He uses Falco's lasers extensively as approaching tool, leaving me no time to think let alone react. They're all well spaced/used and he's playing very smart. However powershielding would be an option but always succeding with it is a difficult feat.

you should try to play in platform courses like battlefield, ganons platform movement is super easy and helpful for approaching and maneuvering around projectiles.

 

[Yanoss1313]

you should try to play in platform courses like battlefield, ganons platform movement is super easy and helpful for approaching and maneuvering around projectiles.

lol, you beat me to it

 

[bandi]

CORY beat you both to it, noobs :-P!

I'm trying to learn new tech with Ganon. I'm almost getting the hang on Shield Dropping and instead of WDing backwards, WL backwards+the Foot should be very effective.

Playing against better players forced me to improvise and think about new combos. E.g.: after an arbitrary number of Dthrows, instead of Bair/Fair/Uair using the aerial flame chocke would be a better option because the possibility of him recovering from only Dthrow+Bair is higher than Dthrow+Aerial Flame Choke+ etc... Ya'll probably get what I mean. It ensures not only a tech chase but also higher percentage which Ganon can punish with WizzFoot.

Same thing with stomping. It's quite situational but if Ganon manages to stomp the enemy 1-2 times in a row (and if bad DI'ed) one could also use the Flame Choke followed up by an Utilt for example (other follow-ups are entirely possible). Of course the enemy has to be airborne otherwise this doesn't work (and Spacies if they tech aerial flame choke).

There's quite a few more things I practiced but didn't get the oppurtunity to test it on real players. I'll share the information as soon as I get to test them out, until then why don't you all eat a Wiener Schnitzel?

 

[Nguz95]

Every Ganon match is decided by punishes. Your punish game should be the main thing you practice, as getting the most mileage out of each hit is crucial to a character that can't engage in neutral whenever he wants. make sure that you're maximizing damage output while also giving you a chance to get an easy read on your opponent. That means abusing platforms, juggling, tech chasing with wiz kick/flame choke, edgeguarding, etc. When you play, you should always be looking for the best way to convert a hit into a stock.

 

[The_Altrox]

So I've only played PM with a few people thus far, but I'm going to a big tourney soon (mostly for fun and experience, but I'm very casual). Still, I hear a lot about the punish game. I get what that means, but when I watch Ganons play, I can't always discern the difference between a punish and just general play. It looks like standard battling to me. Is this the sort of thing that just requires time and practice with more people?

 

[Nguz95]

A punish is just when the opponent acts in a predictable way and you hit him because you saw/knew how he would act.

Kage's matches with Mattdotzeb are an excellent example of this, as every time Ganon manages to get his opponent off stage, he takes a stock. When MDZ falls on a platform, and Kage is below him, Kage covers all his tech options with a uair or a fair. When MDZ rolls, and Kage reads it, he hits him out of the roll with fiar or bair. Every time Kage puts MDZ in a bad situation and capitalizes is a punish. Kage is incredibly good at converting those single hits into stocks. His edgeguarding is superb, and we should all try to implement his stragegies into our games.

 

[bandi]

I can't get enough of that video. The reaction of the commentators always makes me smirk at the end .

 

[Yanoss1313]

A punish is just when the opponent acts in a predictable way and you hit him because you saw/knew how he would act.

Kage's matches with Mattdotzeb are an excellent example of this, as every time Ganon manages to get his opponent off stage, he takes a stock. When MDZ falls on a platform, and Kage is below him, Kage covers all his tech options with a uair or a fair. When MDZ rolls, and Kage reads it, he hits him out of the roll with fiar or bair. Every time Kage puts MDZ in a bad situation and capitalizes is a punish. Kage is incredibly good at converting those single hits into stocks. His edgeguarding is superb, and we should all try to implement his stragegies into our games.

i remember watching that live, was SOOOO hyped.

 

[Spooky Skook]

I'm glad someone could clarify the whole punish thing. Hearing casters say punish every three seconds made me think it was just some kind of sentence enhancer .


Kind of new to smash in general, was hoping someone could give me the general opinion of ganon's utilt. Is it only good as a finisher? I want to try to use it more outside of following up a flamechoke, but I find the second hit comes out way too slow and the first hit has such a weird hitbox.

 

[CORY]

honestly i don't use it much. it's a lot of fun, but it's still awkward. i mostly just use it on the hardest of reads because it can kill at, like, 70.

the best thing going for it is that you have invincibility on your attacking leg as it comes down. next time i get to free play with people i'll try to just spam the **** out of it, but i don't like it as much as his other tilts.