Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[MasterBlu]

I want to clarify that against fast fallers, like spacies, hitting with utilt when they're standing behind you is guaranteed to land into the actual stomp starting at around 40% or so. I didn't test how far this works, but I've done it even at around 80%. It works fairly well against the semi FFs like Diddy also. You probably won't get to use it often vs Falco, but you'll get lots of opportunities to use that against Fox and probably Wolf. You can also use it when theyre airbone behind you, like if you're standing near the middle of battlefield, and they come down behind you from one of the platforms.

It can be CCed. But the opportunities you'll get to use utilt generally come from punishing close quarters approaches, so it's not something you'll have to worry about.

Hey, additionally I would like to add that while it is not guaranteed it is extremely hard to DI out of Ganon U-throw - U-tilt for spacies up to about 40-50 percent and is even hard for characters like Roy as well. Do this next to the edge facing away from the stage and this will easily net you some kills on fast fallers at about 50-60% after damage from the u-tilt. I tested this on CPUs in training mode as well as having a brother handy. Works best on stages like Dracula's Castle and Green Hill Zone where the up throw won't have them land on a platform during normal circumstance. Otherwise, this must be performed from the center of the stage at which point, they will most likely live but it does leave room for follow ups. That is my 2 cents. Let me know what you guys think and if there is anything that can be done to actually guarantee this.

 

[teluoborg]

Must try all this new stuff. Thanks bros.

 

[MACKU]

i was having fun with dthrow chain on link until he got right next to a platform, but then doing dair-dair-aerial (or if high damage, fair). it's also fun, knowing that they think they're free then BAM! 40+ damage.

i think i managed the dair-dair-aerial once, but that's all that was needed >: D

Dribbling people like a B-ball with dairs is so satisfying.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I was practicing various tech yesterday, and at one point was trying to perfect waveland off of battlefield's platforms, throw out a bair, then waveland again. Has anyone else experimented with this or similar stuff?

I've also gotten dacus to about 80% accuracy, it's so fun to do :D

 

[Spralwers]

A cool little trick you can do to: keep your stock lead if you have one, even out a situation where you are at the same stock as your opponent and have high damage but they have little damage, or to end the match if you both are at last stock, is to stomp someone near the edge at low-mid percents, then go for the aerial side B off the stage. On stages like battlefield or dreamland with platforms close enough to the ledge, you can tech chase someone onto the platform and go for this set up.

 

[Electric Tuba]

A cool little trick you can do to: keep your stock lead if you have one, even out a situation where you are at the same stock as your opponent and have high damage but they have little damage, or to end the match if you both are at last stock, is to stomp someone near the edge at low-mid percents, then go for the aerial side B off the stage. On stages like battlefield or dreamland with platforms close enough to the ledge, you can tech chase someone onto the platform and go for this set up.

Seconded. If you get the distance right and are close enough to the ground you can also guarantee survival if you miss somehow.

Another set up that isn't 100% guaranteed is flame choke > jab (>ftilt) > ganoncide. Doesn't work on all characters and can be teched, but it can work at 0% (if they don't tech).

 

[Evan Hite]

I'm looking to pick up ganondorf at some point but I do not understand how you can maintain a stock lead, often times out of shield I'd go for Dair but it would get easily punished about 60% of the time which is quote high! I'm not sure what I can punish with and the startup on most of his airs are very slow. It would be great if I can get some insight on what his playstyle even is.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I'm looking to pick up ganondorf at some point but I do not understand how you can maintain a stock lead, often times out of shield I'd go for Dair but it would get easily punished about 60% of the time which is quote high! I'm not sure what I can punish with and the startup on most of his airs are very slow. It would be great if I can get some insight on what his playstyle even is.

Ganondorf is a punisher. You punish your opponents mistakes and IF you approach, do it with caution.

Dair has a pretty long start up, you're right; if you want to OoS an aerial try nair or upair. They are much faster than dair and are good GTFO moves. If they are very close or above you you can also Up-B OoS.

Fair is an excellent punish move that has a deceptively large range. Retreating bairs can also be extremely helpful, and if you know they'll whiff a move just aerial flame choke>followup of choice

 

[Evan Hite]

Ganondorf is a punisher. You punish your opponents mistakes and IF you approach, do it with caution.

Dair has a pretty long start up, you're right; if you want to OoS an aerial try nair or upair. They are much faster than dair and are good GTFO moves. If they are very close or above you you can also Up-B OoS.

Fair is an excellent punish move that has a deceptively large range. Retreating bairs can also be extremely helpful, and if you know they'll whiff a move just aerial flame choke>followup of choice

Ah, ok see i wasn't quite sure if i should actually play the whiff game or the aggressive game. thanks for clearing that up for me. also thank you for clearing up my oos options, i'll probably most likely follow up with a nair if not uair. however is up-b Oos reliable? it seems like if you whiff it you'll end up getting punished hard. thanks so much for your insight to an aspiring ganon player who needs somewhere to start. i may eventually have questions in the future if you're ok with that.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Ah, ok see i wasn't quite sure if i should actually play the whiff game or the aggressive game. thanks for clearing that up for me. also thank you for clearing up my oos options, i'll probably most likely follow up with a nair if not uair. however is up-b Oos reliable? it seems like if you whiff it you'll end up getting punished hard. thanks so much for your insight to an aspiring ganon player who needs somewhere to start. i may eventually have questions in the future if you're ok with that.

With the Ganon we have now, you have to be pretty careful if you want to be aggressive. On fast characters like fox, basically anything we don't space well can be punished :/
Up-b will work sometimes, but I would almost always go for a nair or upair instead.

No problem, I'll answer what I can. Make sure to post to these forums though, there are a lot of really helpful and nice guys who are a lot better than me here

 

[Evan Hite]

With the Ganon we have now, you have to be pretty careful if you want to be aggressive. On fast characters like fox, basically anything we don't space well can be punished :/
Up-b will work sometimes, but I would almost always go for a nair or upair instead.

No problem, I'll answer what I can. Make sure to post to these forums though, there are a lot of really helpful and nice guys who are a lot better than me here

Cool thanks buddy

 

[Scuba Steve]

Get good at wavelanding.

 

[CORY]

^ yep.

especially get good at bair-waveland. even if ganon doesn't want to rush down hard, you still need to maintain a proper distance. the most common ways are to auto cancel your nair into jab/ftilt/grab and then mix that up with rar-bair-waveland (either away or toward).

 

[Scuba Steve]

Oh yeah, get good at autocancels too. Ganon is slow. Wavelands and autocancels are how you can make him faster.

 

[steelguttey]

so the Olimar Matchup Thread is doing ganon this week. come on over and tell us how bad our character is

 

[Electric Tuba]

I don't think I've ever played an Olimar main

 

[CORY]

same. i've had a couple games against him, but no one that was close to my skill level, really (they were either way better or had a side olimar that was being practiced up).

 

[Purple Stuff]

So I'm trying to figure this out. Not sure if it has been discovered yet, haven't seen it mentioned.

Now this might be know already but if you fall through certain platforms and immediately hit down b you end up with the landing animating of aerial wizard foot. essentially something like an instantaneous ground stomp (not dair). I've found it too be really useful using it out of a shield drop over uair after shield drop because it keeps you on the platform, it pops the opponent up and sets you up for a better combo game (jab into fair for instance).

Now what might not be know is that you can get the same effect hanging off of stages. The only stages I've tried so far are pokemon stadium 2 and smashville. I'd imagine it works with other stages as well. What happens is you get the instantaneous ground stomp, it slides you off the stage and even re-grabs the stage sometimes. it's happens fast enough that I think you still have invincibility throughout the whole thing up until the stage re-grab.

But I can't figure out what is going on. I can't do it consistently. The movement is a double jump from the edge onto the stage into a down-b. Done all in a quick motion. I guess the timing is just really strict. Maybe someone else can figure it out.

Middle of writing post edit: OK, actually I think I figured it out. Surprisingly, you can actually do it anywhere you want as long as there's ground under your feet. To do it on stage, you have to double jump to curl yourself into a ball, fast fast (might not have to), and time down-b to just before you touch the ground or right when you touch the ground. Not sure which. When you do it right, you get the ending animation to aerial wizard foot like I mentioned before. Seems like an option to use out of an empty jump. I think you might even be able to shield stab with it.

Sorry if this has already been posted about.

 

[| Kailex |]

Ive tried a lot of similar stuff when I used to play brawl, but I cant really remember anythibg about the second part of your post, have to try it out myself soon to know.

 

[Purple Stuff]

Here's a video demonstration of what it looks like:

I don't quite have the timing down just yet, so have a little patience with the footage (it's not long though). I do it twice off the edge of the stage, then once at the center. I found that it can also be done while jumping up towards a platform, but the timing is harder to get right.

 

[Electric Tuba]

It looks a lot like "quake" that showed up in Brawl. If it is the same, it's essentially useless, at the range that's required you basically always have a better option. Is it any different than jumping and immediately using down-b? I don't know if that carried over to PM.

The ledge canceling quirk, though, is really interesting. If you can execute that consistently it might be a useful ledge option/mixup.

 

[Scuba Steve]

You should try it out with somebody standing near the ledge and see if it hits them with the little quake that makes them pop up. It looks like it could be completely invincible if done correctly.

 

[GeZ]

Isn't this just really tightened timing for EcAWK?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Isn't this just really tightened timing for EcAWK?

That's what it seems like, but I didn't know EcAWK could work facing either direction relative to the ledge.

 

[Scuba Steve]

It doesn't, that's why this is weird

 

[GeZ]

So if you're facing the stage and do this on a ledge, you slide off? Or what?

 

[Electric Tuba]

So if you're facing the stage and do this on a ledge, you slide off? Or what?

That's what was happening in the video he posted. It looks like there's a much smaller space that this works on, though.

 

[GeZ]

It could be cool stall tech, but I don't see the application if you go right back to grabbing the ledge right after you're doing. Maybe just for use when turning it away from the ledge so you can get the quake > autocancel Bair > full combo afterwards?

Edit: though the perfect version with the slam without the first sfx is really pimp.

 

[Fortune]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. When Ganon does a grounded b-reversal side-b, does it look like he moves across the stage slightly faster and ends up a bit further away from the starting point? It looks that way to me.

 

[teluoborg]

Daaaaaaaaaaaamn son that's some pretty nice thing you found there. The ledge part looks really interesting since it's way faster then regular air to ground wizkick and it puts you back to safety.

I'll try that tomorrow.

 

[GeZ]

Making a tiny video showing distances for this new thing. I haven't been able to get it to not grab the ledge except for once, but I'll try to get that too and include it. So, something will be posted here within the hour.

 

[Purple Stuff]

Is it any different than jumping and immediately using down-b? I don't know if that carried over to PM.

I would say very different. For me at least. Jumping and hitting down-b as fast as I can still brings out the start-up animation of air wizard foot. You aim to avoid that with this technique. You're just looking for that instant slam.

You should try it out with somebody standing near the ledge and see if it hits them with the little quake that makes them pop up. It looks like it could be completely invincible if done correctly.

It pops them up. The range leaves a little to be desired. But it definitely feels viable. About the range though, you can actually extend it a bit by spacing yourself further in when jumping on stage from the ledge. More on this in a bit.

Isn't this just really tightened timing for EcAWK?

No, I don't believe so. EcAWK, no matter how fast, involves using the downwards motion of the beginning animation to clip an edge. This tech that I'm writing about aims to completely bypass that animation. That's the benefit; No start-up lag. Instant hit. An edge isn't even required. You can do this in the middle of the stage if you wanted. Anywhere really.

So if you're facing the stage and do this on a ledge, you slide off? Or what?

Not sure. Haven't really tried it while standing at an edge. Just tried it from hanging off an edge.

It could be cool stall tech, but I don't see the application if you go right back to grabbing the ledge right after you're doing. Maybe just for use when turning it away from the ledge so you can get the quake > autocancel Bair > full combo afterwards?

Edit: though the perfect version with the slam without the first sfx is really pimp.

You don't have to go right back to grabbing the ledge actually. You can influence whether you go back to ledge grabbing or not by spacing the jump coming in from the ledge deeper towards the stage. You ledge jump in far enough, and you will stay on the stage after bringing the tech out. You even give it more range by spacing it in further. It'll all come down to how skillful you get with it.

And their really isn't a perfect version. You are either successful or not. If you seen any purple, then you triggered the beginning animation and messed up.

Either way, it's something that requires some more thought to get more benefit from. For instance, I just realized something while writing all this. The same way you can wave land out of certain moves, you can down-b out of certain moves. And if you can down-b out of certain moves, then you can do this quicker variation and slam the ground out of certain moves.

What happens when you mix an up air with this tech? Maybe something like I recorded here:

Or maybe not. It can be entirely different. This is where you can get creative I guess. ( I also demonstrate using the tech while jumping up towards a platform in the video. I whiff it here and there but watch until the end. I get lucky and link jumps on the platform so I get a hit off of him with it. See what you can expect.)

 

[GeZ]

There. Sorry for quality, but a little demonstration of distances from the ledge.

 

[teluoborg]

Dat montage tho.

@ P Purple Stuff even though that looks hard to pull off it really seems practical, especially since it could easily shield stab tall characters and lead to Fair at higher percents.

 

[GeZ]

Either way, it's something that requires some more thought to get more benefit from. For instance, I just realized something while writing all this. The same way you can wave land out of certain moves, you can down-b out of certain moves. And if you can down-b out of certain moves, then you can do this quicker variation and slam the ground out of certain moves.

Is there a specific timing for getting that pound in after the Uair? It was sick but I can't manage it. Also, since the pound is strictly on the ground, wouldn't combos involving it always be techable?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Is there a specific timing for getting that pound in after the Uair? It was sick but I can't manage it. Also, since the pound is strictly on the ground, wouldn't combos involving it always be techable?

Is the hitbox only the ground?
I wish I had access to debug mode or something...

 

[GeZ]

Is the hitbox only the ground?
I wish I had access to debug mode or something...

I don't but I'm pretty sure the pound part of Ganons Aerial Warlock Kick doesn't rise above at all. I could be wrong but I'm fairly confident.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I don't think being able to use wizard's foot after an upair would be all that useful, just by virtue of the move having a large amount of startup frames

Edit: The hitbox on aerial wizard foot is also butt

 

[whoknowswhat]

Is Dair even worth using other than the occasional choke tech chase and Dthrow combo? I get so much more value from Fair.

GeZ, is that Joe Pass I hear?

 

[GeZ]

Is Dair even worth using other than the occasional choke tech chase and Dthrow combo? I get so much more value from Fair.

GeZ, is that Joe Pass I hear?

For the purple stuff shimmy vid? I wanted to use a version of "You Must Believe in Spring" because it's such a beautiful song so I dug for one that would be existent without being intrusive. I didn't search by artist unfortunately so I'm not sure.