Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[CORY]

i was having fun with dthrow chain on link until he got right next to a platform, but then doing dair-dair-aerial (or if high damage, fair). it's also fun, knowing that they think they're free then BAM! 40+ damage.

i think i managed the dair-dair-aerial once, but that's all that was needed >: D

 

[teluoborg]

I like it when people decide to DI d-throw so that they're off-stage, then I go for a surprise dair and seal the deal real early. Afterward, most people will just avoid DI-ing off-stage entirely, which means more d-throws!

It's a wonderful life we live.

A thing I like to do when people DI Dthrow offstage is just stand there, like I'm asking "oh you want to go offstage ?" then simply Ftilt them.

 

[Spralwers]

During Dthrow chains I like to SH aerial wiz kick to get the downward hit and the ground bounce, and then regrab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poWtERXY_fk#t=3035

Also, for people who are struggling to be consistent with Ganons wavelands, I highly recommend waveland camping during friendlies/tournament matches, especially against players that try to camp you out.

 

[GeZ]

I actually got the idea from when I was helping critique that set for Gallo on skype. Though I'm talking about using the two hits and the bounce at lower percents so the regrab is more feasible without having to line up the aerial wiz kick so you only hit the ground pound. Still, good recognition.

Also also, yes. Practice wavelanding in friendlies. Get familiar with it in a competitive(ish) setting. And read Scubasteve's thingy and watch the clip to see/ understand what good wavelands look like/ are.

 

[MACKU]

Also also, yes. Practice wavelanding in friendlies. Get familiar with it in a competitive(ish) setting. And read Scubasteve's thingy and watch the clip to see/ understand what good wavelands look like/ are.

Could you point me in the direction of whatever Scubasteve waveland guide/tutorial/clip you're referring to?

 

[GeZ]

Could you point me in the direction of whatever Scubasteve waveland guide/tutorial/clip you're referring to?

The words "Workin' on it" are a link. It's hard to tell with my text color but just click it.

Workin' on it

The reason that your wavelands aren't as long is probably because you're angling your airdodge slightly downward. With Ganon, you can waveland with completely horizontal airdodges much more easily than you can with most other characters. His wavelands are easier to hit if you double jump as well. Wavelands on platforms are usually easier because it's easier to get perfect wavelands when you're coming through the platform from below, while ones on the ground are harder because you have to time it better. That's about everything I can think of.

 

[| Kailex |]

Its ridiculously easy to waveland with ganondorf

 

[GeZ]

Its ridiculously easy to waveland with ganondorf

Doing it perfectly is a little tighter, so I thought it would be helpful to outline how it should look, to gauge yourself against. I've been able to waveland his stuff for a while, but I just recently got to buttershoes status.

 

[| Kailex |]

Yeah, I meant the perfect wavelands.

 

[Spralwers]

It's easy if you opt to always do it out of double jump. But it gets tricky when you're mixing it up with regular jumps, back jumps, and double back jumps. Also mixing it with fast falls can be tricky too. I'm trying to be able to consistently perfect waveland off of any jump. Also platforms can have different timings on different stages. Dreamland is different than PS2 and battlefield for instance.

 

[CORY]

yeah, dreamland is notably higher than the other 2 while ps2 is a bit lower than bf. mistiming them means you just airdodged for nothing and might eat a punish : /

on the topic of wavelands, though: i've been practicing some sh-bair-waveland and i kind of know the situations to use it in, practically. but, sh-uair-wland is harder to do properly and i'm not sure what situations i would want to do it in. any input?

 

[| Kailex |]

I remember 1 situation where I u-throwed fox (he di-ed in front), went for a short-hop u-air, wavelanded forward, regrab, d-throw to f-smash.

 

[GeZ]

yeah, dreamland is notably higher than the other 2 while ps2 is a bit lower than bf. mistiming them means you just airdodged for nothing and might eat a punish : /

on the topic of wavelands, though: i've been practicing some sh-bair-waveland and i kind of know the situations to use it in, practically. but, sh-uair-wland is harder to do properly and i'm not sure what situations i would want to do it in. any input?

I feel like sh Uair WL is for gluing combo pieces together that Ganon normally couldn't reach. I know I've managed some Falcon esque Uair > Uair > Fair magic that way.

 

[CORY]

hrmm... ok, i can see these things being awesome... i'll work on that once i get more comfortable with general wlands and bair-wland.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

I'm pretty much at that same point. Though, I tend to not SH uair much in general. I play a really defensive bair game, so the wavelands help a lot for mixup in that regard. But with U-air, I can see it in the combo game as Gez was stating, but do you guys use much shuair in neutral?

 

[GeZ]

I use SH Uair WL and SH Bair WL in the neutral as alternatives to the Arty Vortex, just to make it more unpredictable. But outside of that SH Uair is less a tool for the neutral game and more a tool for comboing/ defending.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

Wasn't really thinking about it, but when you said "defensively" it got me thinking. you could probably get some decent mileage with it as an OoS option, yea?

 

[teluoborg]

I use Uair all the time, even when I could Fair or something more punitive.
That's the sequels from playing Brawl Falcon I guess.

With that said yes, Uair is very good since it's fast and hits everywhere. It also has a decent advantage on shield if performed low, like late Uair to Jab is a pretty safe blockstring.

 

[CORY]

I'm pretty much at that same point. Though, I tend to not SH uair much in general. I play a really defensive bair game, so the wavelands help a lot for mixup in that regard. But with U-air, I can see it in the combo game as Gez was stating, but do you guys use much shuair in neutral?

i like using shuair as a quickish antiair and sh-late(almost landing)uair to catch people off guard on approaches. sh-late uair is actually stronger than i expect most of the time, too : o

otherwise, it's mostly just combo extension, i think; like, dthrow-uair-uair-etc...

 

[| Kailex |]

U-air is good to get out of combos

 

[Electric Tuba]

First off, extended forward smash is called stutter-stepping, so a stutter stepped fsmash. It's pretty common in brawl and you can get even more distance on it (in brawl, I'll check PM when I get home).

All versions of flame choke can be teched pretty easily, unfortunately.. My brother gets it about 99% of the time on aerial and grounded alike.

 

[GeZ]

First off, extended forward smash is called stutter-stepping, so a stutter stepped fsmash. It's pretty common in brawl and you can get even more distance on it (in brawl, I'll check PM when I get home).

All versions of flame choke can be teched pretty easily, unfortunately.. My brother gets it about 99% of the time on aerial and grounded alike.

You can usually jab before they hit the ground off of the aerial one as the initial bounce isn't techable.

 

[Electric Tuba]

You can usually jab before they hit the ground off of the aerial one as the initial bounce isn't techable.

Maybe I've been mis-timing it, then. I'll try that out as well

 

[CORY]

many characters can di away from you to avoid the jab, iirc. i think only the fattest of the fat can't avoid it?

 

[GeZ]

Is there anything to be done to counter that DI'ing? Some other followup?

Edit: While practicing Ganons sh Bair and sh Uair WL in the lab I started futzing about with sh Bair > dj > Bair/ Uair > WL
and sh Bair > dj > Dair.
Anybody have anything else with this tech? It's a little thing but I like the difference of movement from his other conventions.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Is there anything to be done to counter that DI'ing? Some other followup?

Down tilt should be able to poke them. You can also just let them hit the ground and go for a tech read. I do that a bunch on platforms. http://www.twitch.tv/austinpm/b/546401173?t=3h51m42s

 

[GeZ]

I get how it would help on platforms, I was just wondering if there was an alternative to hard reads on the ground. Thanksies.

 

[Electric Tuba]

On the note of fsmash, you can flick forward then back on the control stick and then fsmash with c-stick to get the max distance, quite a bit more than just flicking back then forward on the c-stick.
I think this has to do with pivots in combination with stutterstepping, but I'm not 100% certain (it was a brawl thing).

 

[MACKU]

On the note of fsmash, you can flick forward then back on the control stick and then fsmash with c-stick to get the max distance, quite a bit more than just flicking back then forward on the c-stick.
I think this has to do with pivots in combination with stutterstepping, but I'm not 100% certain (it was a brawl thing).

I've been seeing a few people around the forum talk about this lately. Anyone have a video that shows how to do this/the difference in distance?

 

[Electric Tuba]

I've been seeing a few people around the forum talk about this lately. Anyone have a video that shows how to do this/the difference in distance?

There are videos of brawl, and it's very similar, but I'm not sure about a pm video. Maybe I'll make one in a bit (though I don't have a great camera... )

 

[Scuba Steve]

There are videos of brawl, and it's very similar, but I'm not sure about a pm video. Maybe I'll make one in a bit (though I don't have a great camera... )

It doesn't matter too much around here. I posted a video from my phone's camera and it was still well received lol

 

[Electric Tuba]

Here's a video of the different smashes. Phone camera is all I have, lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ot-lbV4QFs

Technical difficulty goes up as you go down the list, but nothing is really very difficult.

1. Standard f-smash. simple enough.

2. Stutterstep fsmash: slightly more distance by canceling a dash startup into a smash (I think).

3. Pivot fsmash: LOTS of extra distance, just make sure to input the two movements very close together. It's pretty tight.

4. Stutterstep pivot smash: LOOOTS of distance, basically a quick dash dance into fsmash. To get the max distance here, you need to dash as long as possible while still being able to do a dash dance. I mess it up the first time and get just a little distance, but the next two go quite far.

Not sure if it's any faster than wavedashing or wavelanding into a smash, but if you're going to do a grounded fsmash the extra distance (especially on 3 and 4) can really help.

 

[Spralwers]

I want to clarify that against fast fallers, like spacies, hitting with utilt when they're standing behind you is guaranteed to land into the actual stomp starting at around 40% or so. I didn't test how far this works, but I've done it even at around 80%. It works fairly well against the semi FFs like Diddy also. You probably won't get to use it often vs Falco, but you'll get lots of opportunities to use that against Fox and probably Wolf. You can also use it when theyre airbone behind you, like if you're standing near the middle of battlefield, and they come down behind you from one of the platforms.

It can be CCed. But the opportunities you'll get to use utilt generally come from punishing close quarters approaches, so it's not something you'll have to worry about.

 

[CORY]

does it still connect both hits if they di behind you?

 

[GeZ]

Just posting this up in case anyone doesn't know that you can jab while crouching. You just hold the control stick down diagonal away and press A and you'll stand jab and then go back to crouching.

 

[| Kailex |]

^ this is ridiculously good, dont know why i didnt mention it before, found out about it last year (however i dont use it much). Its somewhat from brawl, and is useful for characters with multi-jabs. How to do it in brawl, for example ike, jab once or twice, then crouch and get up directly and jab again. It can be still used effectively with multi-jab characters, but never used it for ganondorf.

 

[GeZ]

It's just handy for jabbing out of crouch, since jab is faster than Dtilt, but it's definitely more for characters with multi hit jabs.

 

[CORY]

yeah, ganon and zard love cc-jab.

 

[Spralwers]

does it still connect both hits if they di behind you?

Yes. It *might* be possible to avoid with TAS SDI on reaction, but that's not going to happen. The move comes out way too quick with too little initial hitlag to have theoretically effective enough SDI on reaction. If you have a friend handy, do attempt to go to training mode, set the Fox damage to be 50% and see if you can SDI/DI out of it. I tried it out with a player of KDJs caliber and he couldn't escape, so that's why I have high (but not perfect) confidence.

 

[CORY]

sweet. you did testing and that's actually what i was curious about : o need to be more cognizant of when i can/need to utilt now...