Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[Bazkip]

There was some discussion on Reddit about giving Ganon better shield damage and imo that'd be a pretty good idea, as the OP says opponents wouldn't be able to just shieldgrab nearly everything and it'd also give Warlock Puch more use.

 

[WINK ;)]

There was some discussion on Reddit about giving Ganon better shield damage and imo that'd be a pretty good idea, as the OP says opponents wouldn't be able to just shieldgrab nearly everything and it'd also give Warlock Puch more use.

That would be a perfect way to buff him without just giving him more damage. :D That's awesome.

 

[net1234]

ganon does have issues dealing with projectiles but the character is basically a wall, he has the ability to pin them to the edge and punish any projectiles. I think maybe a slightly faster jumpsquat might be good but i think ganon is a solid midtier. everyone makes mistake and ganon can kill off any of them with a read or two. downthrow back air is guaranteed on like 90% of the cast and kills at absurd percents. and warlock punch is ****ing awesome if they take it away ill cry it feels so good to land. idk i know ganon could use some buffs but cmon guys the only thing holding him back it the person with the controller, just read harder and stomp better and always ask yourself "what would bizzaro flame do?"

 

[Maniclysane]

Ganon gets around shields with grabs and side-bs though, plus if you space uairs and fairs well enough you can hit a shield and they can't grab you out of it all the time. Trick them into their shield and side-b them. Only thing I would change about Ganon is maybe make his jab a little bigger for a better keep options.

Plus ftilt is safe on shield like, 90% of the time.

 

[Player -0]

Ganon gets around shields with grabs and side-bs though, plus if you space uairs and fairs well enough you can hit a shield and they can't grab you out of it all the time. Trick them into their shield and side-b them. Only thing I would change about Ganon is maybe make his jab a little bigger for a better keep options.

Plus ftilt is safe on shield like, 90% of the time.

If you get someone into shield and you try to Side B them, 90% of the time they can grab you out of the Side B. Side B is SOOO slow to start up anyway.

 

[CORY]

i think it's less being grabbed out of side b and more roll behind or dodge into punish that's the problem. but that ends up being more of a predctability factor. ideally, you hardly use side b in neutral, saving it for either a random surprise burst or (primarily) a mixup option when you have them scared, inside the shield.

i think it's about... 17-20 frames startup? iirc, that's right around normal reaction time, but not extremely far in, so you can use it in a pressure situation without being reacted to very easily (since the only reactions they could take to beat it, feasibly, would be roll behind or dodge...).

 

[Bazkip]

i think it's less being grabbed out of side b and more roll behind or dodge into punish that's the problem. but that ends up being more of a predctability factor. ideally, you hardly use side b in neutral, saving it for either a random surprise burst or (primarily) a mixup option when you have them scared, inside the shield.

i think it's about... 17-20 frames startup? iirc, that's right around normal reaction time, but not extremely far in, so you can use it in a pressure situation without being reacted to very easily (since the only reactions they could take to beat it, feasibly, would be roll behind or dodge...).

Grab box becomes active starting on frame 16, so 15 frames of startup.

 

[CORY]

thanks! i'm burnt out from math hw, so i haven't felt like properly researching things ><

 

[robosteven]

cmon guys the only thing holding him back it the person with the controller, just read harder and stomp better and always ask yourself "what would bizzaro flame do?"

I dunno, against some characters Ganon has to make some OUSTANDING reads at all times. :/

 

[Player -0]

Ganon makes such an obvious animation and is pretty slow while doing. It's really inconsistent outside of combos. As in it shouldn't work.

 

[robosteven]

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE BETTER GRAB RANGE ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

 

[CORY]

yes, which is why you don't use it in neutral. it's reactable there, even if just barely.

as a mixup when you have momentum, though, it's not feasibly reactable, since you're already right on them (or you're taking a read on a tech or anticipating their roll oos).

 

[robosteven]

Reacting on roll or tech roll is my main use for that move. It works wonders following up a roll on a platform, too.

...I'm realizing just now that I don't do that last thing I said nearly enough. Aerial side-b into someone on a platform is so good.

 

[iNoobtacular]

I think Ganon deserves a better grab range.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Ganon makes such an obvious animation and is pretty slow while doing.

You can make it look different by Flame Choking in the opposite direction then reversing it towards your enemy (and, in my opinion, it looks quicker if you do this).

 

[leekslap]

I think Ganon has awesome strenghts but his weaknesses mitigate them so much. He has a great grab game( at least I've heard he does but all I do is down throw), but his pathetic grab range doesn't let him access it. Why have godlike normals when the weakest of projectiles can stop your approach. You have unrivaled punishes and yet you too are punished hard. Why have such good range when it's not always disjointed. Why- OK, you get the idea. Basically focus on patching his holes rather than polishing his strengths. That means a longer grab, light armor on a few of his moves, and whatever a baby deems forth an anemone. Farts should be more common among dishwashers so movies can dance like a prepositional phrase. I cloned my homework to feed my dog light cereal. Heavy nightmares cause water donkeys.

 

[Bazkip]

Did you have a stroke

 

[GeZ]

I was wondering what baz meant and then I saw it. Holy jesus.

 

[leekslap]

Did you have a stroke

LOL

I was practing my randomness. Hey even though this barely has something to do with Ganon, what's the difference between Pit and Dark Pit in the new game? I really want to get my hands on Doctor Mario and I bet Marth Mains or Awakening fans will feel right at home with Lucina but who the hell cares about Dark Pit. Friggin Pichu has more value than Pitto and that's saying somethin. New clones in general feel less valuable than in previous games. I thought Sakurai was really hitting hard on clones or making them more unique and yet Tink, Ganon, and Lucina are clones despite having material to work with. Lucina's main difference from Marth is that her sword is just a plain hitbox rather than having a sweetspot and I believe she is floatier. Dr Mario is like a love letter to Mario mains who want a viable Mario by making him just a bit more technical, stronger yet slower, and he has little changes here and there to help him get his spot. Dark Pit is a joke. I haven't seen any differences at all and not making him more like Brawl Pit was a lost opportunity. I hope the game can be mod-able so he can be replaced by Mewtwo, which is another big lost opportunity. Even though I love Ridley and Dixie Kong would have made a nice addition, Mewtwo is the biggest character who didn't get added.

 

[Electric Tuba]

LOL

I was practing my randomness. Hey even though this barely has something to do with Ganon, what's the difference between Pit and Dark Pit in the new game? I really want to get my hands on Doctor Mario and I bet Marth Mains or Awakening fans will feel right at home with Lucina but who the hell cares about Dark Pit. Friggin Pichu has more value than Pitto and that's saying somethin. New clones in general feel less valuable than in previous games. I thought Sakurai was really hitting hard on clones or making them more unique and yet Tink, Ganon, and Lucina are clones despite having material to work with. Lucina's main difference from Marth is that her sword is just a plain hitbox rather than having a sweetspot and I believe she is floatier. Dr Mario is like a love letter to Mario mains who want a viable Mario by making him just a bit more technical, stronger yet slower, and he has little changes here and there to help him get his spot. Dark Pit is a joke. I haven't seen any differences at all and not making him more like Brawl Pit was a lost opportunity. I hope the game can be mod-able so he can be replaced by Mewtwo, which is another big lost opportunity. Even though I love Ridley and Dixie Kong would have made a nice addition, Mewtwo is the biggest character who didn't get added.

So by barely something to do with Ganon, you mean nothing to do with Ganon

 

[standardtoaster]

Don't use gigantic images. Anything about Smash 4 belongs in the Smash 4 boards, not here.

 

[batistabus]

Idea - Projectile Armor (Neutral B)

Ganon charges his dark magic, and then is granted limited immunity from projectiles for a set (short) amount of time. While this move is active, Ganon is surrounded by a sinister (but subdued) aura. Projectiles can damage him, but do not do knock-back. If it is not possible to program immunity from projectiles exclusively, then this move would grant him light armor. The attack needs to be charged fully to be activated (like Lucas' neutral b). Pressing b while this ability is active would have no effect.

Nerfs to Compensate

Since this would be a very powerful and unique ability, along with general changes we expect to see in 3.5 overall, Ganon would need to be toned down in certain ways.

>Up-b start-up time reverted to Melee, but the rest of the move remains the same.
>Down-b reverted to Melee except for ledge-cancel
>F-tilt slightly nerfed in knock-back

Why this?

I play Ganondorf in Melee; not because he's amazing or anything, but because he's really fun. His movement options and reads are very satisfying, and while he has some limitations as a character, being creative and persistent with him is one of his greatest appeals in my opinion. He is a character of trade-offs, which gives him a really fun design.

Ganondorf struggles quite a bit in certain PM match-ups, and the general consensus in the community is that he is relatively under-powered. I am personally of the opinion that most characters in PM are actually over-powered compared to where I would like to see them, but it's easier (or rather, more realistic) to say "buff Ganon" than "nerf everyone". While there are certain characters (not to be named) with ridiculous combos, recoveries, and gimping abilities, Ganon also struggles quite a bit with projectiles. There are a lot more characters with viable (spammable) projectiles in PM, and since Ganon is so large and slow, he has an especially difficult time navigating around them.

This new move would allow Ganon to mitigate the effects of projectiles on him without severely changing his play-style. Giving Ganon a projectile would very much impact how he would be played, and buffing the strength on his specials and normals would make him insanely strong to a polarizing degree. Without my suggested (or just general) nerfs, I believe Ganon would be much too powerful, or at the very least, not require the same degree of thoughtfulness when playing.

Thoughts?

 

[net1234]

Idea - Projectile Armor (Neutral B)

Ganon charges his dark magic, and then is granted limited immunity from projectiles for a set (short) amount of time. While this move is active, Ganon is surrounded by a sinister (but subdued) aura. Projectiles can damage him, but do not do knock-back. If it is not possible to program immunity from projectiles exclusively, then this move would grant him light armor. The attack needs to be charged fully to be activated (like Lucas' neutral b). Pressing b while this ability is active would have no effect.

Nerfs to Compensate

Since this would be a very powerful and unique ability, along with general changes we expect to see in 3.5 overall, Ganon would need to be toned down in certain ways.

>Up-b start-up time reverted to Melee, but the rest of the move remains the same.
>Down-b reverted to Melee except for ledge-cancel
>F-tilt slightly nerfed in knock-back

Why this?

I play Ganondorf in Melee; not because he's amazing or anything, but because he's really fun. His movement options and reads are very satisfying, and while he has some limitations as a character, being creative and persistent with him is one of his greatest appeals in my opinion. He is a character of trade-offs, which gives him a really fun design.

Ganondorf struggles quite a bit in certain PM match-ups, and the general consensus in the community is that he is relatively under-powered. I am personally of the opinion that most characters in PM are actually over-powered compared to where I would like to see them, but it's easier (or rather, more realistic) to say "buff Ganon" than "nerf everyone". While there are certain characters (not to be named) with ridiculous combos, recoveries, and gimping abilities, Ganon also struggles quite a bit with projectiles. There are a lot more characters with viable (spammable) projectiles in PM, and since Ganon is so large and slow, he has an especially difficult time navigating around them.

This new move would allow Ganon to mitigate the effects of projectiles on him without severely changing his play-style. Giving Ganon a projectile would very much impact how he would be played, and buffing the strength on his specials and normals would make him insanely strong to a polarizing degree. Without my suggested (or just general) nerfs, I believe Ganon would be much too powerful, or at the very least, not require the same degree of thoughtfulness when playing.

Thoughts?

dont you dare take away my ******** good wiz kick. thats my favorite tech chase option/killmove/approach/combofinisher/etc

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ganon would be worse off with these changes

 

[ShadowGanon]

Ganon would be worse off with these changes

^ This guy. I like this guy.

 

[Brozinski]

I feel like Ganondorf is already in a good place. He has a great character design, one of the best there is in PM. The game around him (and a few other characters that aren't quite good enough) is just too good and could use toning down. Just buffing him would be kinda cheap.

 

[net1234]

I feel like Ganondorf is already in a good place. He has a great character design, one of the best there is in PM. The game around him (and a few other characters that aren't quite good enough) is just too good and could use toning down. Just buffing him would be kinda cheap.

i feel like he's still worse than fox tho and fox is like the perfect character model

 

[CORY]

not really ;x he's super noncommittal, with his speed, laser, and shine. getting a hit on him isn't a guaranteed ko, nor is getting him offstage. his tech options are still quite good (they're at least par for course, as opposed to bad, like falcon's); and his recovery, especially if he has access to the double jump, has a good amount of mixups that many characters have to commit to one option to edgeguard properly, while allowing the others back.

in terms of melee positioning, marth, falcon, or peach would probably be better goals to aim for. ganon's close, just because of his sheer power and damage capability. but, he loses to projectiles really easily and faster characters (especially with projectiles) can just straight up camp him out and make him have to commit hard to any approaches, while he really doesn't have a way to deal with them effectively.

not commenting on bati's post, because i honestly didn't read it. if dev build ganon that i played about 5 months ago now is still in the pipeline, then that might just be all we need. if not, i still trust pmdt to make a good decision in regards to preserving ganon's playstyle while making him that touch better that he needs, while also not overbuffing him into a stupid monster.

 

[net1234]

not really ;x he's super noncommittal, with his speed, laser, and shine. getting a hit on him isn't a guaranteed ko, nor is getting him offstage. his tech options are still quite good (they're at least par for course, as opposed to bad, like falcon's); and his recovery, especially if he has access to the double jump, has a good amount of mixups that many characters have to commit to one option to edgeguard properly, while allowing the others back.

in terms of melee positioning, marth, falcon, or peach would probably be better goals to aim for. ganon's close, just because of his sheer power and damage capability. but, he loses to projectiles really easily and faster characters (especially with projectiles) can just straight up camp him out and make him have to commit hard to any approaches, while he really doesn't have a way to deal with them effectively.

not commenting on bati's post, because i honestly didn't read it. if dev build ganon that i played about 5 months ago now is still in the pipeline, then that might just be all we need. if not, i still trust pmdt to make a good decision in regards to preserving ganon's playstyle while making him that touch better that he needs, while also not overbuffing him into a stupid monster.

dude falcon sucks nuts dont lie to urself pm cudnt set the bar that low. since they buffed marth and nerfed sheik i guess that range is where they want their characters.

 

[CORY]

actually, yeah, i'm still stuck in falcon hype mode >< even though he doesn't even look good in smash4, he still brings hype so i had that in my head : /

but i still stand by fox being not a good bar, either. that's what 2.1(i think... i forget the versions for the nuttiest characters..) lucario and ike would be like, along with the 2.6 ivy and that one sonic that could jump out of every spin, and thus, literally had no commitments. the only one out of those that was actually literally busted was sonic, since he could react to you trying to punish his approach choices (or to you reacting to his punishing your approaches >.>). the others were super good, but were technically beatable, just really really stupid (ivy's still kinda dumb, but i have no idea if/what changes are happening with her).

 

[teluoborg]

Ivy had a fast shine like hitbox on her air neutral B charging. Coupled with the fact that you could land cancel the charging animation it made her combo game way better than it is right now.

Right now, if I had to buff Ganon I would buff his defensive game, not his neutral game.

Look at it like this : give Ganon a good neutral game and he becomes something lik Link or the spacies, that get to spam some low risk high reward moves (Link's rang and Zair are very ood examples of that). But if you let his neutral game as is and give him better defensive options you keep his dynamic mindgame-oriented approach style but you don't get punished as hard if you guess wrong.

So yeah, I'd rather have some combo breaker or anti juggle move (wizkick is not an anti juggle move, not with these hitboxes) rather than some poke moves or some projectile reflector/absorber.

TL;DR : let Ganon keep his bad neutral game so that he's forced to approach and create pressure, but make him a little bit less sandbaggy so that he can afford to take risks.

 

[| Kailex |]

Grab range pls

 

[TTTTTsd]

The problem with grab range is a very delicate balance of....

well, D-Throw chaingrab is ridiculous as is. I guess a SMALL buff would be cool but that's thin ice.

 

[CORY]

hello, pit and mario dthrows (especially pit).

with grabs that can't be attacked under.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ganon's usually goes on until kill percent and it's more reliable than Mario's even. Can't attest for Pit, but it's still thin ice given every other thing Ganon can do after with his immense kill power. I'm not going to say you can't increase it a bit, but there's definitely a fine line that should be looked at with it.

 

[CORY]

mario's dthrow is a reliable setup to fair finisher, at kill percent. either that, or a bair (if you can set it up to face inside the stage, bair isn't as frightening, very much giving that point). facing offstage, the bair gimps stupid well.

pit's dthrow has the same deal. on a lot of the cast it leads into sweetspot upb, which kills, or a juggle into upb. or fair/arrow juggles offstage to kill.

and these are much more mobile characters who can set up for landing their grabs much much better, with both their speed and their projectile games.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Eh, I suppose. But I still don't think the grab range should be increased any further than like, maybe Mario's?

 

[CORY]

it's mostly just annoying that ganon can space his own jab against another ganon, and be safe from his grab.

but actually, it's mostly that you can mario dash attack ganon's shield, and he can't grab you, you're too low. there are other attacks that can do this (i ain't even mad about low ducks, just low attacks that are completely and utterly safe against ganon due to slow jump, slow hitboxes below him, and no low grab range), but that's just the one i have to deal with the most, amongst my main playgroup.

 

[teluoborg]

Grab range pls

Horizontal grab range : meh, don't care
Vertical grab range : YES PLS

I'm still all for the quality of life changes that are in the OP btw, some lag has to go and some hitboxes have to come.

 

[Bazkip]

The problem with grab range is a very delicate balance of....

well, D-Throw chaingrab is ridiculous as is. I guess a SMALL buff would be cool but that's thin ice.

Ganon's usually goes on until kill percent and it's more reliable than Mario's even. Can't attest for Pit, but it's still thin ice given every other thing Ganon can do after with his immense kill power. I'm not going to say you can't increase it a bit, but there's definitely a fine line that should be looked at with it.

Easy, nerf chaingrab buff grab range.
I don't think anyone would be opposed to that.

Chaingrabs are dumb anyways.