Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[| Kailex |]

Not you, gez and others that played 3.5 ganon

 

[CORY]

you're just dumb and need to not be afraid of change.

i also last got to see the dev build, like, 5 months ago, so i don't know what changes have occurred. he still played like ganon, he hit hard and looked awesome. he was just REDACTED

 

[Electric Tuba]

. he was just REDACTED

God dammit cory

 

[net1234]

it looks like they buffed ganons dtilt in 3.5, which is freaking awesome that move is gonna **** so hard, combo extensions for days.

 

[ShadowGanon]

it looks like they buffed ganons dtilt in 3.5, which is freaking awesome that move is gonna **** so hard, combo extensions for days.

Where did you get this information?

 

[net1234]

Where did you get this information?

pm art tuesdays final. yooo so 3.5 did they just take things we said on this board verbatim?

 

[robosteven]

Float looks dumb, reflector looks fine.

Fingers crossed for Ganon not becoming the new Mewtwo.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Float looks dumb, reflector looks fine.

Fingers crossed for Ganon not becoming the new Mewtwo.

Do not worry, my friend. Ganon's new float doesn't give him the ability to float cancel aerials (or so I've heard) and he can't teleport.

 

[_Chrome]

Float looks dumb, reflector looks fine.

Fingers crossed for Ganon not becoming the new Mewtwo.

His float mechanic seems to not be overpowered at all. Apparently he is affected by gravity, and has little control over its movement. I haven't actually tried it yet, but that's what I've seen some of the beta testers post, who said that it doesn't last long either. He can only use it once per airtime, and must land onstage (not the ledge) to regain his float. He can only jump or use aerials out of float, and it is activated by holding or double tapping the B button.

 

[ShadowGanon]

His float mechanic seems to not be overpowered at all. Apparently he is affected by gravity, and has little control over its movement. I haven't actually tried it yet, but that's what I've seen some of the beta testers post, who said that it doesn't last long either. He can only use it once per airtime, and must land onstage (not the ledge) to regain his float. He can only jump or use aerials out of float, and it is activated by holding or double tapping the B button.

I don't mean to be nit picky, but I'm pretty sure that you activate it by simply pressing B once in the air. You use the reflect/slap by holding B or double tapping it.

 

[_Chrome]

I don't mean to be nit picky, but I'm pretty sure that you activate it by simply pressing B once in the air. You use the reflect/slap by holding B or double tapping it.

Okay, I must have forgotten, I have a concussion right now so I'm not all together. Thanks for correcting me!

 

[Electric Tuba]

Feel better. See a doctor or whatever you're supposed to do for concussions.

 

[Mywhy]

Do you guys have any ideas on the float techniques? Tourney tomorrow and I need to capitalize on our character having some good tools in his arsenal now.

 

[CORY]

read over the posts in the social thread talking about it. i don't feel like retyping all of the stuff from there again right now, but there're some ideas (and experiences) there.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

REVIVING THE THREAD! (also I was told to put this here)

(Disclaimer: LONG POST! I'm gonna be suggesting even further changes to Ganondorf for possible future updates. Please don't judge my suggestions to harshly (especially if you didn't try it in action). I'm just brain storming and figured my fellow Manondorf mains would be the best place to throw my ideas off of. Also this is in no way not appreciating all the hard work that has already been done for Ganondorf. But alas the Demon King's heart only wants more and more and more...
*All credit for the unique animations goes to Ashingda)

I'm a big fan of both Smash Ganon and Zelda Ganon, and after seeing all the awesome "closer to canon" moves Ganon got in 3.5 it only got me more hyped for maybe even more stuff like it in future updates.

I'm a big animation fan. By that I mean I love cool looking animations in smash games (or any game) and Ganondorf having more unique animations has always been a nit-pick of mine for obvious reasons.

Now It's pretty evident that Ganon would remain with his Hand to Hand empowered by magic moveset, so I'm gonna be suggesting things with that design in mind (although I will always hold out hope for 3-4 sword moves being implemented by using down taunt, like Samus with Ice Beam taunt. Even with the sword taunt attack);

1: Grab range - yeah I know, I'm a broken record over here. deal with it . Don't know about you all but I would trade a better grab range with an even more drastic increase in KBG on down throw in a heart beat. Here is an example of a better grab range for Ganon in action (please ignore everything else) I personally used that mod and even with 3.0 KBG on down throw it wasn't anything outrageous. @ 1:13

Spoiler

2: Get Up attack -"who the hell cares about a get up attack animation?"... well I do ok? . Here is a cool example in the form of the OoT ground punch! @1:36

Spoiler

3: Up smash - everyone seems to like the current Up smash, well believe it or not it can be even better! It's probably gonna be a hassle to install 3.02 again just to test this out for your selves, but if you thought using DACUS with the current Up smash was fun you have no idea what fun is until you try this Up smash uppercut for your self! More horizontal range and a better hit box above Ganon's head makes this a great DACUS and a great follow up after aerial Flame Choke, it hits low! @ 0:35

Spoiler

Here is also a GIF

Spoiler

4: Down Smash - why was this move not changed already? I never liked it neither aesthetically nor mechanically. Here is a better version of the current (kind-of) Up tilt stomp as Down smash! Not only is this a great Smash in general but for edge guarding it works very similarly to Roy's Flare Blade on the bottom (the actual stomp) of the attack. @ 0:37(video above)

5: Up tilt - since we (theoretically) have the stomp for Down smash how about a conventional Up tilt for some juggles? everyone likes juggles! @ 0:13(video above)

- Now were going into what I think would think to be the more.... gasp... "radical" changes

6: Nair - I like Nair much more in 3.5 mechanically but the cloned animation from C. Falcon still irks the living hell out of me... how about something in the vein of this? (Hit box and animation could be made to match current Nair) @ 0:16 and 4:08 (video above) Or maybe make the animation of current Nair a little more unique and have some magic effects to it. I do like the move I don't want it changed too much. Unless...you really want to go evil Wizard with it! check out @ 2:06. Works similar to Mew2's Nair and looks bad***!

7: Up Special - how about a teleport? Com'on you know you want it... don't play coy with me, I know what you really want!
You can't fool me!!! Obviously acting out of teleport is a big no-no (see Mewtwo v3.02) But this would work without it. Also since (theoretically) the grab range was buffed keeping the old Up-B out of shield might be over kill on the whole grab department... right? idk... maybe? @ 1:59

Spoiler

Well that's all I got. I would love to hear from you guys if this stuff is actually viable for tourney play or not. Or maybe I'm just completely delusional and this stuff would never work. Also any PMDT member roaming on this boards please feel free to let me know if I should not hope for any of these types of things to happen, it would save me a lot of unneeded expectations in the long run. Thanks for reading!


Also here are some comment already made regarding my post form the Social thread:

Spoiler

Man, I thought the crazy suggestions would stop once 3.5 hit. Don't we already have three threads for that jank? Just shove it there.

Anywho, I'mma make a new video and match-up thread. Let's get active and conquer 3.5, mmkay?

Hey! Not nice
are my suggestions really that "crazy"/"janky" anyway? most of them seem pretty reasonable maybe some even down right appropriate to me? Hey at the end of it all I just want our main man to be even cooler/better.

Ha, I didn't mean to come across as mean, sorry.

But we do have threads for that, and just about every suggestion we've had in each of those threads, including my own, are jank filled messes that are unlikely to ever be actually implemented anyway.

Then again, we got a ****ing hover, so anything's possible.

It's all good I was just playing around with the "not nice" thing (sarcasm is hard to do on the internet).

And yeah the hover/reflector is what made me so excited for even more changes. I mean we all knew Ganon was gonna be buffed but a ****ing hover/reflector!!!!! If someone was to suggest that prior to 3.5 they would be laughed at! So my head was just swarming with all these different moves I've used in the Triforce mod and thought to my self... why not? We did get something I would never thought we will get... EVER!

And some of the suggestions I made are pretty tame... Grab, Get up attack animation, more unique animation plus magic for Nair. Some are more drastic like Up Smash and Down smash/Uptilt but those aren't anywhere near the "hover/reflector level" just yet.
I would put the teleport and the "evil Wizard" Nair at that level, those could change Ganon's play style in a similar way to the way the hover/reflector did. But to an even lesser extent I think...

@ _Ganondorf_ "If someone was to suggest that prior to 3.5 they would be laughed at"
Yes, actually it happened and we did laugh at him, look at the "rumor has it" thread.

Ifyou want to keep on talking about the triforce mod and other moveset suggestions you should go revive the meta thread instead of starting a new one because this forum is already a mess with all the 3.5 hype currently unrolling.

Just seeing how we're discussing the changes in 3 different threads makes my OCD hurt.

LETS DISCUSS!

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

man... i've seen so many ganons float at the absolute worst time and get punished hard for it.
All apart of learning process

 

[_Ganondorf_]

man... i've seen so many ganons float at the absolute worst time and get punished hard for it.
All apart of learning process

Yeah it's not the safest in Nuetral, we still need to be smart and judge when we can bait and/or punish with it.

 

[Yanoss1313]

man... i've seen so many ganons float at the absolute worst time and get punished hard for it.
All apart of learning process

yeah, i never know when to do it in neutral... I generally have been using it only for Edge-guarding, recovery and tech-reading when they've been popped onto a platform.

 

[Electric Tuba]

You can use it to bait out moves and sort of approach, but you have to space it well so that you aren't punished.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Hey guys I'm I the only one not liking the "new" Uptilt?

Seems a lot harder to use it now that it doesn't "capture" or "guides" the opponent from the top hit to the bottom hit anymore... Also Ganon doesn't move forward anymore.
The move was situational at best in 3.02 so why the weird nerf?

Also the old animation was MUCH better!
If you guys didn't get the chance to. Look closely at it; when Ganon hits the ground with the foot he looks so disproportionate. He looks like he almost "shrunk" in size. His groin area looks all messed up (there's a joke in here lol) and his arms/elbows bend so far back they actually clip extremely badly with his back. And also his chest and neck look like he just broke....

@Shell and PMDT please fix Uptilt it functions wonky now and looks even worse.

Don't remember if I mentioned this before on these threads but if you guys can please also have the air dodge animation match the grounded ones. 1- it's still a cloned animation. 2- it just looks off now that the other dodges are all wizardy and stuff.

Also-
More subtle animation suggestions:

Nair - give it the "Bair treatment" for the animation + darkness trails for both kick (similar to Fair's trail)

Up air- ^ same as Nair.

Up Smash -add darkness effect like in Fsmash for both kicks. (I also think this move can use more disjoint above and horizontally, maybe the darkness effect can serve that?)

Up B the grab and the release: both are still cloned animations give them the "Bair treatment". (Also a pronounced darkness effect on the hand swipe at the end of the up b would be nice aesthetically)

Grab and pummle attack: again both are cloned animations still. I would suggest having Ganon grab with his left hand (since trying to grab with the back arm just looks wrong!) and than punch the opponent with his right hand and electricity effect would be used for every time the pummle connects.

Down smash - give it the "Bair treatment" + have it have a similar electric effect as Dair. (I would say scrap the move completely and give a new smash in the form of the OoT ground punch. But even somthing like this would make me jump for joy)

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

I'm about to post my rant that I had when my friend told me Ganon's new buffs were: A reflector, and being able to fly.

I was mad at the time, but after playing him now. I like the reflector, and yes the float is cool. But we really could have done without it. I'm just agitated that they gave him a gimmick instead of just fine tuning him. That's like adding a spoiler to your car that needs an engine check. I'm still playing P:M I'm just annoyed.

oops, the pictures aren't rendering...just right click and press open in new tab.

 

[GeZ]

I'm about to post my rant that I had when my friend told me Ganon's new buffs were: A reflector, and being able to fly.

I was mad at the time, but after playing him now. I like the reflector, and yes the float is cool. But we really could have done without it. I'm just agitated that they gave him a gimmick instead of just fine tuning him. That's like adding a spoiler to your car that needs an engine check. I'm still playing P:M I'm just annoyed.

They're really simple additions that add a lot of depth. It's an example of good elegance of game design. I don't see it as a gimmick at all, considering that stupid use of either will lose you freaking stocks.

 

[Scuba Steve]

It feels so nice to reflect lasers back at Falcos and see them experience just how annoying it is to get lasered

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Oh the reflector is cool! I just don't like my character being during into a gimmick.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I don't follow how having a reflector is suddenly gimmicky. Tons of characters have reflectors, it's not really a novel concept

 

[Yanoss1313]

I don't follow how having a reflector is suddenly gimmicky. Tons of characters have reflectors, it's not really a novel concept

i thought he was talking about the float... which is admittedly a little gimmicky, but... lets face it... it's both sexy and canonical.

 

[teluoborg]

But we really could have done without it. I'm just agitated that they gave him a gimmick instead of just fine tuning him. That's like adding a pair of functional wings to your car that needs an engine check. I'm still playing P:M I'm just annoyed.

Fixed.

Yes it's a gimmick, but a gimmick that helps Ganon in as many ways as he needed. And side B is a bigger gimmick anyway.

@ _Ganondorf_ I don't like the new Utilt animation either, but I'm not sure if it's less reliable now. It needs more testing.

 

[CORY]

i did a little testing with a person last weekend and you just straight up cannot pull them into the stomp from behind. it launches very far behind you, so even if they di straight towards you or something wonky, they still just end up kinda above you while you finish your 20some odd frame attack.

like, i wouldn't be mad, except if you hit the rear hit, there's a good chance you can be punished, it seems. either relink them, move that hit further forward (so it doesn't hit behind so far), or just give it more knockback so it's safer on hit.

otherwise, i think it's either slightly better or neutral from changes (it does feel like it actually steps further forward, but the damage/kb feel the same on the stomp). you also still have invuln on the stomping leg during the actual stomp. i've stomped down on bobombs in training and not been hit. that's a very important aspect that they kept.

 

[GeZ]

The invuln I think is one of the more important parts of Utilt. I've crushed Marth in the neutral with a good read and an Utilt.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I love the new animation for up-tilt, but the move is practically unusable now. Honestly, it was pretty busted before on fast fallers and fatties. Poor DI on one dash attack meant certain death for Spacies and Falcon and that was pretty dumb to be fair. Still though, it's real bad now.

Edit: Wait, what's this about invuln now?

 

[CORY]

when you stomp, the stomping leg actually has invuln on it for the duration. you should be able to see it in debug. i'm going to go check right now, in fact.

edit: either the hitboxes just go RIGHT over the invuln coloring of the leg, or i'm missing some input. but, you can test it in training by making some bobombs and then just stomping them at near max range. you kinda just go through the explosion, no ****s given.

re-edit: damn, it looks like i was just stomping into the tip of the hitbox. i know there was invuln in 3.0 era and there was no change for utilt outside of the animation, so either i just can't see it, it was changed and they forgot to note it, or it was changed accidentally. i guess we'll have to wait and see for more testing.

 

[Electric Tuba]

You can definitely get the double hit on up tilt on Fox, at least in some situations/with some DI. It worked a few times during matches last night, I didn't do any testing so I don't know if it's DI dependent, but it is Possible.

 

[CORY]

what i noticed was if they're above/in front of you, the stomp still brings them in, but behind just says "**** your ****!" and they fly away. were they positioned directly behind you on the ground? or were they in the air (even directly behind you)?

 

[Scuba Steve]

I've used the new uptilt a couple new times and I like it so far. I had just gotten a bunch of stomps off of some tech reads, choke slammed a guy into the ground, and turn around uptilted him to finish him off. I meant for it only to cover him teching behind me, but it actually covered the no tech option too and pulled him from behind me straight into the strong hit. **** was cash

 

[Yanoss1313]

I've used the new uptilt a couple new times and I like it so far. I had just gotten a bunch of stomps off of some tech reads, choke slammed a guy into the ground, and turn around uptilted him to finish him off. I meant for it only to cover him teching behind me, but it actually covered the no tech option too and pulled him from behind me straight into the strong hit. **** was cash

The first thing i noticed about U-tilt (aside from the slower speed) is that it now has a shoulder hitbox on the second hit, it was very satisfying to see my playing partner try to hop over the footbox for a punish only to be headbutted into the stratosphere. =D

 

[Ace55]

Uptilt seems to be able to combo if they're in front of you and they DI away (char and % dependent off course). Which is pretty nifty imo because for pretty much anything else that would be correct combo DI.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I was messing around with edge-kicking (aerial wiz kick) and found that, if you edge-kick the edge of the stage (not a platform), you can waveland back onto the stage right after without jumping. I don't know how useful it'd be, but it'd make it so you could put out a taunt right after spiking someone's recovery for extra disrespect.

 

[Purple Stuff]

I was messing around with edge-kicking (aerial wiz kick) and found that, if you edge-kick the edge of the stage (not a platform), you can waveland back onto the stage right after without jumping. I don't know how useful it'd be, but it'd make it so you could put out a taunt right after spiking someone's recovery for extra disrespect.

Nice. Could've sworn that I've tried that before but thought it didn't work. Must of been doing it wrong. Need to get it down though. Getting tired of instant side-b's after wiz foot. Need a new way to style after the edge-cancel.

 

[GeZ]

So have any of you guys used, RAR Bair > Double Jump > Dair to punish attempted shield grab? It's pretty fun.

 

[| Kailex |]

didn't try that out, i usually go for a flame choke after that