Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[teluoborg]

I find it cool that so many people have so many suggestions for Ganon but I'm at the same time dissapointed by how disorganized it is. So I made this thread :

THE GANON META THREAD​

Simply put it should have three uses :
-discuss how we see Ganon as a character, his strenghts, weaknesses and his place in the metagame
-suggest changes to make him better fit his role or improve his quality of life.
-crazy ideas that would make him awesome.


3.02 Ganon players wish list :

Tweaks :
-Lower the hitbox on grab, or alternatively give grounded up B a faster hitbox
-Reduce the cooldown on his spotdodge
-Reduce the cooldown after successfully connecting an up B
-Reduce the landing lag on both up B and aerial side B
-Make it so that Ganon doesn't lose his second jump if he gets hit out of his side B and up B
-Have a hitbox cover his foot during aerial down B

Bigger changes :
-Make Utilt a 2 input move, like Snake's Ftilt
-Put some armor frames somewhere (dash attack ?)
-Take away the down B jump renewal and make side B not go helpless instead
-Change Fthrow and Bthrow trajectories to allow follow ups/rethink his grab game
-A NEW NEUTRAL B

Proposition for neutral B so far :
-Projectile reflector/deflector
-Super armor with or without a counter mechanic
-SF4 focus attack-like warlock punch
-Make the punch be chargeable like Marth or storable like DK
-Custom projectile

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Okay, here's my analysis.

Ganondorf as a Character

Strengths: Powerful, good range, great edge guard, good aerial game, Flame Choke (good for mixing up approaches, chasing, and comboing)

Weaknesses: Poor mobility, predictable recovery, useless Neutral-B

Place in the Metagame: Low-Mid Tier. I believe Ganondorf is viable, but it's undeniable that he is on the lower end of the spectrum. Ganondorf punishes mistakes hard, but is generally forced to play the opponent's game and wait for them to make a mistake. Ganondorf is especially punishing if the opponent is off-stage, but this is kind of counterbalanced by how abysmal Ganon himself can handle being off-stage. He has more recovery mix-ups than in Melee, but he still remains amazingly easy to edge guard. Overall, Ganon has a few great strengths and even more glaring weaknesses.

Room for Improvement

Neutral-B: The obvious one. This move is essentially only useful if there is a broken shield or a sleeping Jigglypuff. Even in those situations, a fully charged Smash attack or even an up-tilt will generally get the job done. My personal opinion is that the move should be scrapped entirely. If it was given super armor, it could find some small use in edge guarding, but Ganon already has plenty of options in that department.

My hope would be a projectile, just because that would give him options and be cool, but problems with articles, if my understanding is correct, would make it difficult/impossible to implement.

Either way, just about anything would be better than what he has now.

Recovery: I like the suggestion to give Ganon less lag when he successfully grabs off of Up-B, but I feel being able to jump out of it would be too much. Same for jumping out of side-B, but that seems slightly more reasonable.

I would like to see his Side-B snap to the edge more quickly. It's silly to see Ganon smear his face against the wall and then get punished for trying to mix-up the recovery. Mainly though, it just looks silly.

Armor: I oppose the idea of strapping super armor onto Ganondorf. For one, it is a feature that should be used sparingly and only when it makes sense. Bowser needs it, and he's a spiky armored behemoth. Squirtle goes into his shell and gets it, which makes enough sense.

Adding armor onto any of Ganon's existing moves, in my mind, wouldn't make a lot of sense. At the very least no move comes to mind that looks like Ganon enters a protected stance. Secondly, spacing is a big part of Ganon's game, and I fear that armor undermines that. That's more of a personal opinion, but that's my take.

Crazy Ideas: Replace Neutral-B with: A projectile of some sort, dark energy wave thing from before boss battle of OoT, or really just about anything.

Explosion of dark energy on bair to differentiate the attack from Falcon and more fully detail the disjointed hitbox.

Keep the fair animation the same.

New dair animation would be fine, but not the Brawl one.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

my thoughts exactly on the armor, i just think it makes people and their strategies (overtime) careless, reckless, uninventive ,and lazy. to an extent, why have good spacing/techskill/matchup knowledge/ when you can throw out attacks what cant be easily punished... is how people would probably think with armor on their main. and yea his WP is cool but kinda useless as is, turnaround and all. i kinda wish it could be charged and stored, like dk's neutral b, with dark smoke/ magic coming off ganons single hand once charged, and relatively quick to throw out. but if ganon is hit out of any of his specials (as they all involve dark magic) he would lose the charge keeping it fair and balanced
just my thoughts on it

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I don't mind the armor on Bowser, he desperately needed it. Ganon does not.

I don't think Ganon would have to be able to lose the charge for it to be balanced, Donkey's move does comparable damage to a WP, is fast, has good range, and he can combo into it. That said, I'm not a huge fan of the idea just because it's so derivative of Donkey's move. I'd prefer something more unique.

It would be kind of neat if it gave a static boost to his attacks if he had a charge, then losing it would make more sense. Some kind of mix of Lucas's Offense Up and the Donkey Punch.

A static boost might be ridiculous just because Ganon's already really powerful, so maybe instead it could be like Offense Up and it would disappear if he missed an aerial attack, but it would make aerial attacks more powerful, with the charge staying around if he lands aerial hits. All the while storing a faster WP.

Ha, still pretty derivative, and possibly broken as all hell, but I'm liking the idea.

Edit: Oh, and when Ganon has a charge and hits the ground with Fair, he creates an explosion like at the beginning of the OoT boss battle! Broken?

 

[| Kailex |]

Hmmm, maybe we could use something like lucas' offense up... Instead of powerd up smashes, maybe new/improved specials? A little float after using up b to improve his recovery (from oot) and it covers him up with dark energy or electricity + a bit of armor so that it wont be useless. Thoughts?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

It seems like a move similar to Offense Up wouldn't make much sense as a tool for improving recovery. A charge of any kind feels very offensive, and I feel like it should be used for bringing the pain, but if it made Wiz Kick and Flame Choke better I'd appreciate it.

In my mind though, a move like that makes the most sense just boosting attack power in some fashion. I like the idea of aerials in particular just because that's Ganon's bread-and-butter, at least the way I play the guy.

Another thought I had, which I posted in the social thread just now but should probably highlight here, is for aerial Wiz Kick.

It occurred to me just how nice it would be to be able to control the facing (left or right) of the kick in the air. That way when you're knocked far backwards you still have a chance to recover. In addition, it might be just a little more useful on stage because of that extra bit of control.

 

[| Kailex |]

Yeah that sounds nice, I die a lot facing backwards

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Shamelessly stolen suggestion from Khlx in the social thread: Press "A" during Flame Choke to use the (possibly) new trajectory shown here: http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/470268333 (Footage at 01:48:00).

I would prefer that Flame Choke keep its current trajectory, as the new angle looks a little boring and requires less reading of your opponent, and will also be less useful against floaty characters or anybody with a fast/high priority aerial attack to counter the attack after choke.

Choice would be nice though. I'm sure the new angle is incredibly useful at times as well, but nothing really beats the Flame Choke we have now.

 

[foxygrandpa]

If anyones ever played smash64, if you used falcon punch and held up, it would give you a slight recovery boost.
Maybe if neutral b only could be chargeable, depending on how long you held b, it could have slightly more use.
It would be like charging a smash attack, so no matter what time you let go of the button, ganon would still have to do the attack. The more it was charged, the more knockback and power. Kind of like marths neutral b.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I like the idea of a stored charge (like Donkey Punch) better than a charge and release (like Shield Breaker) simply because it would give Ganon something to do against camping, and has the possibility of forcing the opponent to approach.

Ganondorf is all about reading the opponent and punishing mistakes, but as a result you're generally forced to play your opponent's game. This oftentimes leads to having to clumsily brute force your way in against characters with projectiles. A stored charge gives Ganon some broader influence over his opponent that he lacks at the moment.

That said, ANYTHING would be better than the current WP.

Edit: One more thought: I said that I'd want the aerial side-B to snap to ledges instantly, but I realized that that might conflict with quick, rising-off-the-ledge chokes, which is just awesome. If it could snap a little faster, but not remove that as an option, I'd be satisfied.

 

[teluoborg]

Nah man, you can already sweetspot that side B, you just have to aim right.

About warlock punch, if anything had to be changed I'd prefer a charge and release like shield breaker to a stored charge.
The reason to this is quite simple : a stored charge means that the full strenght charged punch will come out a lot faster, so it'll have to be tuned down in strenght in order for Ganon to not have a Dthrow to punch kill on everyone at 40%.

On the other hand, having a chargeable punch will give you the choice between a fast and weak version or a strong and slow one.

Also about super armor as a defensive mechanic I think it'd be great if Ganon had some on the starting frames of aerial down B, before the hitbox comes out.
Because one of the problems I encounter with Ganon is that once I'm in the air there's nothing I can do except pray that the opponent misses a juggle. His aerials are so slow that people don't even have to combo you to keep you in the air.
So yeah just a little bit of armor frames on down B, so that the opponent will have to either combo you for real, or he'll have to stay vigilante about not getting faceplanted into the ground.

 

[| Kailex |]

Im really into the charged warlock punch, I can already imagine a lot of combos using it, if it was as fast as i think it should

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Nah man, you can already sweetspot that side B, you just have to aim right.

I think you misunderstand me about the whole side-B thing. I just want Ganon to spend less time rubbing his face into the stage if I do an aerial Flame Choke close to the ledge. It just looks silly.

About warlock punch, if anything had to be changed I'd prefer a charge and release like shield breaker to a stored charge.
The reason to this is quite simple : a stored charge means that the full strenght charged punch will come out a lot faster, so it'll have to be tuned down in strenght in order for Ganon to not have a Dthrow to punch kill on everyone at 40%.

On the other hand, having a chargeable punch will give you the choice between a fast and weak version or a strong and slow one.

I can see the concern there, charge and release would be more combo friendly without requiring the move to be toned down. Having a stored Warlock Punch of the current power would lead to crazy kills and too many reliable ways to get there. Charge and release is probably better.

Also about super armor as a defensive mechanic I think it'd be great if Ganon had some on the starting frames of aerial down B, before the hitbox comes out.
Because one of the problems I encounter with Ganon is that once I'm in the air there's nothing I can do except pray that the opponent misses a juggle. His aerials are so slow that people don't even have to combo you to keep you in the air.
So yeah just a little bit of armor frames on down B, so that the opponent will have to either combo you for real, or he'll have to stay vigilante about not getting faceplanted into the ground.

I could get behind having some armor at the beginning of the aerial Wiz Kick. Ganon coils up there and enters a somewhat guarded position so it makes enough sense, and it would give us something to deal with being juggled forever. In addition, it wouldn't undermine spacing in playing Ganon properly. I feel like this is the one place I could see armor working out.


Edit: What if, as you released a charged WP, you could also hold a direction to change the move?

A neutral-release would, of course, be the normal punch.

A side-release would be a quick lunge that was weaker than the normal punch and had quite a bit of endlag to balance out the speed. This would cause the move to be easily punishable and would require smart use.

I would picture an up-release as something along the lines of Mewtwo's up-smash but more of a dark explosion somewhat similar to Zelda's up-air.

A down-release would be an electric ground pound encompassing a wide area similar in effect to Wario's/Charizard's down-smash.

This is probably too many options to give one move, but it just sounds so incredibly cool.

 

[teluoborg]

The idea seems awesome, but it looks like way too much work for the animators to ever seem possible. Tho I'd love to see Ganon release an upward punch, it would be glorious.

And about the side B to the ledge thing, do you want it to grab the ledge during the starting animation ?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Not during the starting animation, just a little sooner before the animation ends. My only problem with it is that Ganon spends just a little too much time waiting to grab the ledge for my liking.

If they let him grab the ledge a little sooner, he could avoid punishment, he could be prepared to edge guard again sooner after going deep for an attack off-stage, and he would just look less silly when you mix-up your recovery with the side-B.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

im fully aware of WP's ability to kill most if not all characters at under 100%, which is why i suggested that he lose the charge if he gets hit out of any of his special attacks, and that the charge itself take awhile to complete, which would help with balancing. now i do down throw to jab alot, and im not suggesting that it come out that fast, or as fast as dk's. im suggesting it come out fast enough to be VIABLE, even as a techchase/jab reset option other than his flame choke what we've all seen people using 3 or 4 times in a row. especially since the move can be turned around for added options/mindgames. or is a full power WP coming out as fast/slow as ganons f-smash too broken to imagine??

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I don't know if it'd be broken. I'm having trouble picturing the exact speed and power that a stored charge WP would need to not be broken.

Maybe the ability to lose the charge, in addition to a long charge itself, would balance it out on its own. I just don't know. What exactly would the conditions be for making Ganon lose the charge?

Either way, regardless of charge and release or stored charge, the move needs a put a glowing Triforce on Ganon's fist as he charges/when he has a charged WP.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

the power, range, and turnaround option i think should remain the same for the move. the speed is the issue that needs to be debated as well as the method of charge and release/ stored charge. the move should come out slow enough for you to react to with shielding, rolling, or spot dodging, but not slow enough to be worthless. im debating for the stored charge because well, i want to be able to implement the punch into the ending of combos, as well as punish landing lag off recoveries, or tech errors. i think the conditions for losing the charge as i said earlier should be him getting hit or grabbed out of any of his specials like the lag on grounded wiz kick or, by an attack or projectile as they all involve dark magic and it makes a healthy amount of sense. of course when he dies he loses the charge and can only hold one at a time (duh). and yea his triofrce should glow when he has one, or just have mewtwo's smoky palm i dont care which.
and maybe ganon should have a projectile, or a sword who knows? he does use a sword/projectile in pretty much every zelda game right?

 

[lukifer]

Regarding up-B, I think the biggest problem it has right now is the huge landing lag if you land on the stage with it, which pretty much forces you to always try and sweetspot the edge. If you do land on the stage with it and fail to ledge-cancel off of platform, your opponent nearly has a full second to punish. In contrast, other heavy characters like DK and Bowser have landing lag of a few frames at most on their recoveries.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Regarding up-B, I think the biggest problem it has right now is the huge landing lag if you land on the stage with it, which pretty much forces you to always try and sweetspot the edge. If you do land on the stage with it and fail to ledge-cancel off of platform, your opponent nearly has a full second to punish. In contrast, other heavy characters like DK and Bowser have landing lag of a few frames at most on their recoveries.

Actually, that's a good point, fixing the on stage lag would certainly help the whole predictability issue a bit.

 

[Player -0]

What if we (Smash Community) were to shamelessly steal Street Fighter's idea of a super armor charge attack that's not super slow?

Also another idea would be to change it so if you were to tap B again while Ganon is "charging" warlock punch then instead of throwing out a punch he would do a sort of jump (Like in OoT after you chop him up and he starts floating again) and do decent knockback. It would be kind of like Lucas's B after you've charged it. This would be good because it would force people to punish the start up frames and not the endlag of the move. This would also be a decent mixup option from starting a warlock punch.

Personally I like my second idea.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

The second idea is pretty cool.

I like the idea of a high jump out of the WP just because it could also give Ganon even more options in edgeguarding. Just pop up real high and punch a fool.

I don't really know if he NEEDS it, but it is cool nonetheless.

 

[Player -0]

The second idea is pretty cool.

I like the idea of a high jump out of the WP just because it could also give Ganon even more options in edgeguarding. Just pop up real high and punch a fool.

I don't really know if he NEEDS it, but it is cool nonetheless.

Just like, about the length of a Full Hop, and instead of throwing out a punch he does the part at the end of his Up Taunt where he flexes out while rising and it has a decent hitbox and knockback around Ganon. Of course there would be a dark visual indicator. This would have decent endlag but Ganon would be able to move before he touches the ground (he slowly floats back down after "flexing").

 

[Yanoss1313]

What if we (Smash Community) were to shamelessly steal Street Fighter's idea of a super armor charge attack that's not super slow?

Also another idea would be to change it so if you were to tap B again while Ganon is "charging" warlock punch then instead of throwing out a punch he would do a sort of jump (Like in OoT after you chop him up and he starts floating again) and do decent knockback. It would be kind of like Lucas's B after you've charged it. This would be good because it would force people to punish the start up frames and not the endlag of the move. This would also be a decent mixup option from starting a warlock punch.

Personally I like my second idea.

yeah, that acualy sounds pretty cool, i thought i had for the Warloch punch was more lame.
i was just thinking they coul make i behave like Ike's volcano.... i like your idea better

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Just like, about the length of a Full Hop, and instead of throwing out a punch he does the part at the end of his Up Taunt where he flexes out while rising and it has a decent hitbox and knockback around Ganon. Of course there would be a dark visual indicator. This would have decent endlag but Ganon would be able to move before he touches the ground (he slowly floats back down after "flexing").

I didn't mean the jump would end in a punch. I was picturing the ability to use any aerial attack out of the end of it. Specifically, I was thinking of the fair (hence, the punch).

Also, a full hop is really short for Ganon. I want to reach for the skies.

 

[Player -0]

I didn't mean the jump would end in a punch. I was picturing the ability to use any aerial attack out of the end of it. Specifically, I was thinking of the fair (hence, the punch).

Also, a full hop is really short for Ganon. I want to reach for the skies.

I was thinking a Full Hop for my idea so you could actually hit with it XD

If you were to be able to any any aerial out of it then a super jump would be an interesting idea (Thinking superman).

The drawbacks for using my idea instead of a normal warlock punch (you could still use each interchangeably through the use of an A or B button)
- Less range forward
- Less Powerful
- Can't Turn? (It has hitboxes all around Ganon so....)
- Less shield stun and shield damage
- Easier for an opponent to punish (depends) because the opponent can stand about a Marth's jab away and just charge a smash

Advantages:
- Less endlag
- Can Wavedash or DJ out of it (because Ganon gets out of the endlag in the air)
- Pushes shielding opponents farther
- Opponent can't just stand there and shield as effectively
- Mixups ftw
- Would send opponents at a horizontal and slightly up angle (in my mind that's how I'm seeing it in my mind anyway) instead of directly towards the upper corners of the blastzones. This would set up for an edgeguard situation.

So you would:
- Use Warlock Punch as more powerful shield breaker (yeah, they should buff Warlock Punch's shield damage and junk)
- Use Warlock hops (pro name I know) for less punishable option (overall)
____________________
Those are just my overall ideas what it would be used for and how it works. I agree that a buff to Warlock Punch should be made somehow, a different mechanic or option out of it is what Ganon players want (that's what I'm hearing anyway).
Falcon can use Falcon Punch because he can reverse it with more utility because of his run speed and his wall jump, and his moveset isn't composed "solely" of powerful moves like Ganon's is.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Warlock Punch is horrible. Useless, even.

I don't think it would need to be nerfed even if a new option or two was stapled onto it.

 

[| Kailex |]

These ideas look great

#FreePMSocial

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

The PMBR should use all of these ideas.

I want a stored charge punch that you can also release whenever into four different directions and is also a projectile. Also, you can jump out of it.

Oh, and it has super armor and powers up all of your aerials, smashes, and specials while you have a charge.

 

[Player -0]

The PMBR should use all of these ideas.

I want a stored charge punch that you can also release whenever into four different directions and is also a projectile. Also, you can jump out of it.

Oh, and it has super armor and powers up all of your aerials, smashes, and specials while you have a charge.

That sounds really OP

 

[| Kailex |]

I really think that we should get a brawl- mode in pm, it would help both teams by working together...

#FreePMSocial

 

[Player -0]

I really think that we should get a brawl- mode in pm, it would help both teams by working together...

#FreePMSocial

Someone will probably make a conversion mod that integrates both of them

 

[foxygrandpa]

the warlock punch should not be stored like donkey kongs. It would take away the individuality of the punch, and would be kind of overpowered. It should be like the shield breaker, but the punch should still be relatively slow, because it's still ganondorf and he does not need a fast attack like marth. He's a pretty solid character as it is, and the idea wouldnt change much of his current gameplay. I like that he's a good character that doesnt revolve around mobility or cheap grabs.

 

[| Kailex |]

speaking of wich, our dorfs' grabs are pretty short ranged

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

speaking of wich, our dorfs' grabs are pretty short ranged

Ha, it's pretty pitiful. Probably for the best given how great d-throw is though.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah there are so much follow ups for Dthrow I feel it's fair that the grab range is so short. It's a guaranteed kill on most of the cast, and you can even 0-death some characters so it's only normal for it to have a weakness.

And then again, Ganon has more grab range than Mario so it's not that bad.


Also I really like P-0's idea of making Warlock punch similar to a SF4 focus attack, the characteristics would be like :
-punch goes out when you release B, the longer you hold the harder it hits
-has super armor for one hit only, or some kind of heavy armor
-when you reach full charge the punch releases automatically and it breaks shields
-OR the punch itself could stun the opponent on place rather than send him flying, like ZSS' taser. The longer you charge, the longer the stun obviously.

So obviously the power of the punch would have to be tuned down, but I think it would be very interesting since it gives him an option that is both offensive and defensive while still having obvious strenghts and weaknesses.

Thoughts ?

 

[Yanoss1313]

Yeah there are so much follow ups for Dthrow I feel it's fair that the grab range is so short. It's a guaranteed kill on most of the cast, and you can even 0-death some characters so it's only normal for it to have a weakness.

And then again, Ganon has more grab range than Mario so it's not that bad.


Also I really like P-0's idea of making Warlock punch similar to a SF4 focus attack, the characteristics would be like :
-punch goes out when you release B, the longer you hold the harder it hits
-has super armor for one hit only, or some kind of heavy armor
-when you reach full charge the punch releases automatically and it breaks shields
-OR the punch itself could stun the opponent on place rather than send him flying, like ZSS' taser. The longer you charge, the longer the stun obviously.

So obviously the power of the punch would have to be tuned down, but I think it would be very interesting since it gives him an option that is both offensive and defensive while still having obvious strenghts and weaknesses.

Thoughts ?

that sounds pretty fantastic to me... I'd really love to see it happen, You listening PMBR? We've decided what we want!!!!!

also i think one of the tuning points though should be that it's minimum charge time should be at-least as slow as or like a little slower than his Fsmash, so he can't like, throw one at all willy nilly.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I thought I'd randomly pop up to say I wholeheartedly promote changing warlock punch in some way. Perhaps his maximum holdable charge is still not maximum charge? I mean that he could charge maybe up to 2/3rds of the startup and power for a quick hit, but instead of releasing immediately he can further charge the move and/or spin in circles for mind games. Throwing out a few turnarounds for mindgames and then just cancelling to hold the charge could be sort of fun.
Maybe the darkness waves could be brought in somehow, as a little protective burst during startup or cooldown (probably cooldown, in my opinion). Maybe I'm just making a dumb aesthetics argument, but if I can't have a projectile, I'd like Ganondorf's energy ball attack to be with us in spirit; during the charge, the energy rays that gather in his fist could be more exaggerated as a nod to the charging animation from OoT. I'm all for it being more punishing on shields, as well.

These next ideas might be a little less rational, but I'll put them forth anyways:
Now, I might be overstepping, but are there any other attacks that would be acceptable to change? I'd single out Nair, Utilt, and Usmash as decent candidates. Maybe dash attack and Fsmash because they have good substitutes, but they're fitting enough already, so eh.
I know not everyone is always up for decloning for decloning's sake, or even decloning in general, but I would personally find it quite nice if some moves were slightly modified to capture the whole Ganon personality from the games just a little better.

-Utilt could be a move with similar functionality, but using the trident instead. I was thinking he could spin the trident around as he raises it up (probably wouldn't have a hitbox, but it could) and slash/stab down with it. I'm thinking something like Phantom Ganon's animation from OoT when he shoots an energy ball. Wouldn't change in functionality, and the disjoint could give it a little more versatility as a (hopefullly not excessive) buff. An alternate version could use a sword, and an alternate of that alternate could be the sword slashing upwards, but now I'm getting into a weird rework of the move.
-Usmash could be the first kick followed by an upwards stab with the trident or one of those swords he seems to be seen with every now and again. Could be a slash, too, in the parallel plane for a sweeping hitbox (see above for why that could be undesirable), or perpendicular plane for the same effective hitbox, I'm impartial in this case. Again, disjoint, and it might make the hitbox less awkward, since it doesn't work out of a run quite like Falcon's does in my experience.
-Not sure about nair

I think these would be interesting, but I could see some issues with pulling out weapons for a single move looking a little awkward in animation. Unless he summons his weapons in a burst of dark flames. Sort of like that little Beast Ganon he hides in his cape. Granted, an awful lot of this could be construed as meaningless effort. I do think these little details would potentially be quite awesome without changing too much.

Liked the sound of the landing hitbox on fair, by the way, that would be cool if it were worked in somehow.

I'm a little new to be accurately pointing out the difference between Melee and P:M Ganon metagame, but if I were to make pure gameplay suggestions and/or observations, I'd say some sort of defensive fix would be the best thing. For someone who relies so much on aerials Ganon can not be caught in the air, because then his range advantage is moot because he lacks aerial mobility outside of his poor second jump, and his best counterattack options for dealing with pressure, his grab and jab, are unavailable. He's almost like Luigi in that sense, but without the Nair. If Ganon's Upair or Nair could shake him out of careless combos a little better he'd be better off defensively, I'm just unsure about how much, and whether this would be a good design choice in general. Flame Choke really helps with a lot of the offensive problems I had in Melee, and I find that it meshes with Ganondorf's style of brutal punishes off of prediction quite well.

 

[DrinkingFood]

How about we just let him use his sword in his warlock punch, so rather than being a useful move like many wish it were, it retains it's property of being primarily for style points, but gains a bunch of range like vBrawl marths nB while gaining a lot more in terms of character personality design.

 

[| Kailex |]

Down taunt switches to sword mode