Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[ViewtifulHoe242]

ganondorf...with a sword mode.
whoa, where'd my pants go?

 

[Player -0]

Down taunt switches to sword mode

Would be interesting, but it should be his Neutral B if they did sword mode at all. Using taunts to switch forms would be OP.

How about we just let him use his sword in his warlock punch, so rather than being a useful move like many wish it were, it retains it's property of being primarily for style points, but gains a bunch of range like vBrawl marths nB while gaining a lot more in terms of character personality design.

That would be an interesting idea.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

How about we just let him use his sword in his warlock punch, so rather than being a useful move like many wish it were, it retains it's property of being primarily for style points, but gains a bunch of range like vBrawl marths nB while gaining a lot more in terms of character personality design.

I wouldn't mind this at all, actually, but I doubt having monstrous range will leave the use at simply style - if it retains the turnarounds. I'm specifically thinking about covering pretty much all tech options if you can just predict that a tech is going to happen early enough. Granted, he won't be able to start early enough off of Flame Choke or Dair, but he could just start before they hit the ground and spin around until he could choose direction on reaction. Does Dthrow have enough stun to force a tech situation like this on some characters? Anyways, I could be wrong about the speed of the move, too, and this could be impossible.

It would still be a shame to lose the punch, though, since that's sort of what Ganondorf actually kills things with in the games, but a sword would be a simple solution that could potentially work very well.

Edit: Maybe the punch could simply have a disjoint blast with a lot of range, but less power than the hand itself? (still plenty powerful of course) Adds range, makes it a little more "warlock" but just as much "punch."

 

[Yanoss1313]

or... OR... now here me out here.... OOORR.... we could give him a big old Kamehameha attack!!??!? *shrugs* i got nothin...

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Ha, you people are crazy.

Sword mode? Come on, that's insane.

As for using the sword for his Neutral-B, I think it would be a jarring for him to use the sword for one move. It's already crazy weird for the taunt, I mean, where does he even hide that thing?

 

[Player -0]

Ha, you people are crazy.

Sword mode? Come on, that's insane.

As for using the sword for his Neutral-B, I think it would be a jarring for him to use the sword for one move. It's already crazy weird for the taunt, I mean, where does he even hide that thing?

In his pan- *cough*?

Manliness.

or... OR... now here me out her.... OOORR.... we could give him a bog old Kamehameha attack!!??!? *shrugs* i got nothin...

I could completely imagine Ganon charging that up, just got the best mental image ever.

 

[SSS]

I feel like I've seen Ganondorf PSAs that have projectiles. I most definitely have. If Brawl Vault scrubs that primarily make overpowered god psas can do it, why can't P:M?

Also does Ganondorf in Project M have his stab wound from Twilight Princess? Because if he doesn't he definitely should.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I feel like I've seen Ganondorf PSAs that have projectiles. I most definitely have. If Brawl Vault scrubs that primarily make overpowered god psas can do it, why can't P:M?

Projectile over neutral-B would be absolutely fantastic. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I'll go ahead and say it again.

I want a slow-moving projectile that can give Ganon some control over the stage and help him force a certain approach angle. I'm picturing something along the lines of Lucario's super Aura Sphere, but having that ability on command would be pretty silly.

Also, just to bank on my OoT nostalgia, I want it to be able to be reflected by any physical attack so we can play Ganon Tennis like in the LoZ games. Maybe that would balance it out on it's own, I don't know, but I would absolutely love it.

 

[Player -0]

Projectile over neutral-B would be absolutely fantastic. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I'll go ahead and say it again.

I want a slow-moving projectile that can give Ganon some control over the stage and help him force a certain approach angle. I'm picturing something along the lines of Lucario's super Aura Sphere, but having that ability on command would be pretty silly.

Also, just to bank on my OoT nostalgia, I want it to be able to be reflected by any physical attack so we can play Ganon Tennis like in the LoZ games. Maybe that would balance it out on it's own, I don't know, but I would absolutely love it.

._.;

Link Vs. Ganon Tennis Match -

Serving: Ganon!

Link: **** (reflects with F-Tilt)

Ganon: MADNESS? THIS IS SPARTA! (Sparta Kick)

Link: (Goes flying off stage)

Sounds interesting, not sure if I like how different it'll change Ganon as a character though.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I don't know how much it would actually change Ganon as a character. I would see it more as giving him an extra option, but I'm sure whomever is in charge of making these decisions has a better idea on how this idea would pan out than I would.

Either way, WP has to go. It's terrible.

 

[Veishi336]

Ive been thinking about this forever but.........um how about that electric ball as his neutral B from OOT? Here is the vid. Go to 2:12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yh1g9B_eBY

 

[Player -0]

I don't know how much it would actually change Ganon as a character. I would see it more as giving him an extra option, but I'm sure whomever is in charge of making these decisions has a better idea on how this idea would pan out than I would.

Either way, WP has to go. It's terrible.

If Ganon could do that he could do some pretty dumb stuff (probably) with making the other person react and dodge/block/reflect the ball while Ganon could punish their reaction, grab them in their shield, or just do his Down-B to reflect + Hit opponent. It would change Ganon from how he plays, something less polarizing would be good.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I don't think we could fully know how these scenarios would play out without having the actual details of the moved planned out aside from "slow and able to be reflected."

You could very well be right, but I believe that if the move was implemented correctly it could fit right into Ganon's current style.

Whatever they do...

WP has to go. It's terrible.

 

[esoterics]

Down taunt switches to sword mode

Press B during d-Tilt for warlock slash!

In all seriousness though, I'd like to see the WP become Jump Cancelable. It would make it not-as punishable and it would also give more options (JCUS, grab, WD, etc.).

If that's too ridiculous though, we could make it eat projectiles. Gannon is hit by a projectile while charging the WP, just let him absorb the damage, stop the attack, and recover some health. It'd help against zoners.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I'd think the endlag would be too punishable to effectively deal with zoners. If a projectile isn't feasible I'd ask for a protective darkness wave during the last half of charge up and/or during endlag.



I would say having it reflectable on hit might be a bad idea. It would have to ignore projectiles, unless you want to get camped even harder, and Ganondorf would be at a pretty inherent disadvantage when trying to reflect it in the air because all his aerials are fairly commital and at close range he could have it reflected right back without a chance to react. The only really unpunishable reflector move he'd have would be jab. That's not to say I'm completely opposed. Hypothetically, would it be able to be hit at an angle, and would the speed increase upon reflection?
It would be awesome if you could throw it, and play a little game of self tennis with it. Throw, dtilt, stomp it down onto your unsuspecting enemy. That would be extremely difficult to implement, but hey, I'd enjoy it. Or you could throw it and WD -> Sparta Kick it for a little more speed. That could actually make for an interesting projectile, now that I think about it.

If it isn't reflectable, I just think a zoning projectile is going to get a few too many free punishes. Throw one at an opponent, and they're forced to roll, shield, or go airborne where they're extremely likely to eat an upair or something. It is hypothetical, so it wouldn't hurt to try it, I guess.

Of course, a safer choice would be a chargeable, moderate speed attack projectile. You could use it creatively to punish a reaction, but it could also be used as a surprise long range KO tool on an opponent who like to dance outside just your range. It just wouldn't be too free with either of them.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah while we're talking about our wildest dreams, why wouldn't Ganon get his Nayru's love alternative.
Like he crosses his arms and surrounds himself with dark energy, dismissing any incoming projectile for a short while and having a fast, short range, shine like hitbox.
Of course you could jump cancel it if it connected.

The important part would be that projectile wouldn't be reflected, just deflected.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Yeah while we're talking about our wildest dreams, why wouldn't Ganon get his Nayru's love alternative.
Like he crosses his arms and surrounds himself with dark energy, dismissing any incoming projectile for a short while and having a fast, short range, shine like hitbox.
Of course you could jump cancel it if it connected.

The important part would be that projectile wouldn't be reflected, just deflected.

well now you're talking! :o

lol, but seriously now, warlock punch has got to go.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

You're really going to take out Ganon's signature move? I do not think the Warlock Punch is beyond saving, have you ever thought of a system similar to Lucario's aura charge? What if landing successful special attacks lead to a readily stored Warlock Punch? You wouldn't be able to freely charge and store a Warlock Punch, but instead be rewarded with a flashy finish for bringing the pain. This would also greatly limit the use of Warlock Punch and would put a greater emphasis on "every hit counts". This also leaves room to tamper with the use of Ganon's normal neutral b move as well.

However the biggest problem with Ganon I see is his inability to effectively control the stage and losing his upper hand quite quickly. This especially goes for his lack of a projectile and poor overall mobility, he is a sitting duck.. As much as I'd love to see a projectile on Ganon it just doesn't seem fitting, and I'm not too fond of changing his traditional playstyle. So I came up with a solution. What if his neutral a jab could reflect projectiles? Here is the link to Ganon's hitbox and frame data: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorf-hitboxes-and-frame-data.340214/

As you can see this attack starts at frame 3 and ends at frame 5, that's a 3 frame opening as opposed to perfect shielding frame 1. This would make it much easier for Ganon to punish reckless projectile spamming while also keeping his distance, that way your not always playing your opponents game. Of course I don't know how I feel about reflecting heavy projectile like aura sphere or Samus's charge shot, perhaps there should be a limit. But most of those can be charged up and stored, so it's your own fault for recklessly releasing them in the first place. Then there's always the problem of individuality, competing with things like Mario's cape, spacies reflectors, and Mewtwo's side b. On a side note it also looks surprisingly fitting on this move.

 

[| Kailex |]

It would feel better if his f-tilt reflected too; and a stored warlock punch is great, it would com out in half a second, landing it after a neat combo

 

[KeyOfTruth]

It would feel better if his f-tilt reflected too; and a stored warlock punch is great, it would com out in half a second, landing it after a neat combo

Ganon's f-tilt already has properties that collide and cancel with projectiles. The reason I came up with the idea of his jab reflecting projectiles was because I didn't feel safe relying on this option because of the fact it's slower and Ganon's leg is a hurtbox unlike a sword. If Ganon's jab were to reflect projectiles I would feel much safer just with that little bit of control, to deny my opponent his right to force me to shield or jump. We all know how slow and short Ganon's jump is.

Plus it would give Ganon's jab attack a new meaning besides the your too close get off me. I mean what else is it good for? Ganon's f-tilt is already useful enough.

 

[Yurya]

Something I noticed:

Flame Choke OP.
This move grabs from a distance has good followups and reliably suicides.
One of the best moves in the game may be over-centralizing along with his down throw chain grabs.

Suggestion:
Change Flame Choke to a reflective backhand like a short ranged Mario's cape. Helps with projectiles, recovery and depending on KB could be a combo starter.
Keep awesomeness of Flamechoke making it new Down Throw removing chain grab but retaining other followups.
Increase height of double jump for improved recovery and edge-guarding/finishing.
Warlock Punch could of course improve but I don't see good direction at the moment; adding a projectile going to work (on Ganondorf yes, but not Falcon-clone 'dorf).

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

^ Boo this man!

Boooooooo!!!!

To put it in a more civil manner, Flame Choke isn't OP. Ganon is a slow monster who needs a way to get at his enemies. It has more than enough end lag to punish hard, and a missed Ganoncide is, well, suicide. It's not centralizing either. If you aren't smart with it you will be punished. Hard.

Also, never even think of changing Dthrow ever. It's pretty much Ganon's best move.

 

[| Kailex |]

I love ganondorf the way he currently is, only improvement would be "charged up warlock punch"; all other ideas will go to the brawl- special mode that will never ever happen

 

[KeyOfTruth]

I agree flame choke is in NO way OP and it would be ridiculous to take from him. In fact it can be easily argued that the flame choke is Ganon's only effective approach option, strip that from him and your left with f-air l-canceling (get ready to be shield grabbed). The flame choke also provides for some tech chasing, which requires careful prediction to follow up. It's not just something you can combo right out of, you have to be smart about it. You can't just throw out a flame choke either. As mentioned above if your not smart with it you will be punished hard. But if it's just missing your worried about think again. Ganon's flame choke can be easily interrupted by a number of things including any kind of projectile, basic jabs, and even other grabs. Flame choke is a much needed addition to Ganon's arsenal, but yet he is still in need of improvements. That is why this thread exists is it not? Arguing that flame choke is OP is nonsensical when we're discussing possible improvements for a character that is believed to be underpowered.

 

[Urielhelix]

I wouldn't mind a sword mode or a projectile. With the sword mode though i would feel that it would have to be a little faster but no killing power. it will force you to us your fist to wreck. I know its been said many times from the people above, but the projectile will be nice just for force the other person to do or go some were.

on topick of flame choke, I get punished the most form bad timing with that move. you have to wait a listen to make sure it lands or your hurting.

 

[J1NG]

Welp, I'm new to the Project M side of this neighborhood, and I will say that I am guilty of not reading any posts here.
But, I had an interesting idea to buff Ganon so I came here to post it:
Basically, the idea is to give him more chargeable moves besides his smash attacks. The charged moves could increase his % damage or knockback, and it fits thematically with Ganon having slow, powerful single strikes. It also gives him unpredictability, which I think he should have (instead of just rejecting his heavy character status by "hot fixing" his problems with more speed/mobility or something like that). On top of everything, these chargeable moves would highlight Ganondorf as having more chargeable moves than anyone else.
The moves that I think could benefit from this the most would be his jab, fair, and grab. Maybe even his B. Definitely not his side B.
Just a thought. Eh, what do I know anyway?

 

[batistabus]

- When suiciding with Ganon's side B, he should always die first

Why, Ganon-designer? Why?





I mean, the general tournament rule is that the person who initiates any suicide move gets the win, so why program it so the opposite happens? Why go against what's already been established?

 

[| Kailex |]

Leelue trolling :3
MORE IMPORTANTLY, wiz kick is b-reversable now yipee

 

[teluoborg]

Maybe it's just a typo, I'll check when I get home and dl the game.

But yeah Breversed Wizkick is a blessing, one of the things Ganon needed the most.

 

[| Kailex |]

And it does more damage now! :D

 

[CORY]

yeah, i'm oddly hyped for b-reversible wiz kicks.

and i'm confused about the ganoncide thing, as well : / for the same reason as batistabus.

 

[billywill]

Something I noticed:

Flame Choke OP.
This move grabs from a distance has good followups and reliably suicides.
One of the best moves in the game may be over-centralizing along with his down throw chain grabs.

Flame Choke is sooo punishable if you miss, which happens a lot since it is easy to read and dodge.

 

[fums63]

I dunno if this is a glitch or not, but for some reason when I try to wavedash with Ganondorf he does a full jump. Only Ganondorf though, every other character is perfectly fine. I'm just doing Y -> R diagonally down, same as always.

 

[Kati]

Literally "every other character"..? WD timing varies depending on the character you choose.

 

[| Kailex |]

Exactly, fox's wavedash timing is not the same as bowser's

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I feel like this update was a bigger deal for Ganondorf than most people realize.

1. Wiz Kick with more damage means better priority. We can actually clank with a fully charged Samus Charge Shot. I'm sure there are more situations we're better off in as well.

2. Is it just me, or does less start-up on his recovery feel fantastic?

3. B-reversible Wiz Kick is a better mix-up than I expected. DD reversed Wiz Kick is a nice surprise/mix-up, and the aerial reversal is fantastic as well (for offense and recovery). A new angle to attack from in the air, can start combos, does more damage, good mix-up for descent... I love it.

Obviously these changes aren't going to drastically change any match-ups, but Ganon has a new tool, a safer Wiz Kick, and marginally better recovery. 3.0 Ganon's feeling real good.

Now, if we could just get a new/significantly changed neutral-B...

 

[Goon]

Just wanted to put in my two cents about Ganonciding. It still works like it used to, as far as I can tell. So yeah, two cents put in.

 

[dRevan64]

We can actually clank with a fully charged Samus Charge

Oh man I'm gonna go make some kid real salty with this thank you based headcrab.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Just wanted to put in my two cents about Ganonciding. It still works like it used to, as far as I can tell. So yeah, two cents put in.

It doesn't.

In a last stock scenario, Ganoncide used to be inconsistent. There were times where Ganon would win, sometimes he would lose, and sometimes you would get sudden death.

Now it's consistent, but I feel like it's consistent in exactly the wrong way. My understanding, and I could be wrong, was that jank like Ganoncide, when deciding a match, goes to the player initiating the suicide in tournaments. Now a Ganoncide win will just always feel awkward.

Maybe with sudden death gone, this was the only way to avoid a simultaneous death with the whole roster. Is port priority an issue? I don't know.

It's not a big deal, really. It's just kind of a bummer.

 

[Goon]

I think port priority might have something to

It doesn't.

In a last stock scenario, Ganoncide used to be inconsistent. There were times where Ganon would win, sometimes he would lose, and sometimes you would get sudden death.

Now it's consistent, but I feel like it's consistent in exactly the wrong way. My understanding, and I could be wrong, was that jank like Ganoncide, when deciding a match, goes to the player initiating the suicide in tournaments. Now a Ganoncide win will just always feel awkward.

Maybe with sudden death gone, this was the only way to avoid a simultaneous death on the whole roster. Is port priority an issue? I don't know.

It's not a big deal, really. It's just kind of a bummer.

I think port priority might have something to do with it. I won a game the other night with a Ganoncide, while using the P1 Port. Later that night, I lost the exact same match-up with a near identical Ganoncide. The only difference was that I was using the P3 port in the game where I died first. I'm gonna have to test it out more thoroughly. I just thought it was still kind of random, and I didn't even think of port priority having an effect.