Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[Hungry Headcrab]

Crazy. I've been getting nothing but losses with the Ganoncide, no matter the port I use (not that I'm paying great attention to it).

If you figure anything out, let us know.

 

[teluoborg]

So I did some testing :
-if you're higher port (port 1), the outcome is random. Like totally random.
-If you're a lower port you'll always lose. ALWAYS.

So get port 1 and pray Sakurai.

 

[Goon]

Pray to Sakurai. Haha. I dig it. So basically it's the same if you're P1, and "balanced' if you're not? The PMBR probably should've just left it alone. Not that I'm complaining mind you; Ganon feels good in 3.0. Real good.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Had a thought today:

It would be cool if Ganondorf's down-smash second hit was optional, similar to Snake's/Link's forward-smash and Ike's down-smash. I find myself getting really cool combos whenever the two hits don't link together and I get that real low, straight angle off of the first hit.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I feel like this update was a bigger deal for Ganondorf than most people realize.

1. Wiz Kick with more damage means better priority. We can actually clank with a fully charged Samus Charge Shot. I'm sure there are more situations we're better off in as well.

2. Is it just me, or does less start-up on his recovery feel fantastic?

3. B-reversible Wiz Kick is a better mix-up than I expected. DD reversed Wiz Kick is a nice surprise/mix-up, and the aerial reversal is fantastic as well (for offense and recovery). A new angle to attack from in the air, can start combos, does more damage, good mix-up for descent... I love it.

Obviously these changes aren't going to drastically change any match-ups, but Ganon has a new tool, a safer Wiz Kick, and marginally better recovery. 3.0 Ganon's feeling real good.

Now, if we could just get a new/significantly changed neutral-B...

let's not forget about Fair being 1 frame faster ... yeah i know... 1 frame of like a billion...

 

[Rᴏb]

What do you guys think should replace Ganon's neutralb? What would help his game more, a projectile, a counter, a shine...
I don't play Ganon too often, but I feel like I have a basic understanding of his character. In my opinion, Ganon needs something to combat projectiles that doesn't stop him dead in his tracks.

Also, opinions on him getting a sword mode? Personally, I think it would be a waste of time and just convolute his simple playstyle, but maybe this is because I really have no idea how it could be handled. If people really want to see him use his sword, I think that some of his lesser used moves (fsmash, neutralb, dsmash, etc.) could be reworked to incorporate it.

Suggesting changes to Ganon is soooo weird because I don't think he is bad at all and I really enjoy him the way he is now, it's just that compared the other characters he just doesn't shine.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

What do you guys think should replace Ganon's neutralb? What would help his game more, a projectile, a counter, a shine...
I don't play Ganon too often, but I feel like I have a basic understanding of his character. In my opinion, Ganon needs something to combat projectiles that doesn't stop him dead in his tracks.

Also, opinions on him getting a sword mode? Personally, I think it would be a waste of time and just convolute his simple playstyle, but maybe this is because I really have no idea how it could be handled. If people really want to see him use his sword, I think that some of his lesser used moves (fsmash, neutralb, dsmash, etc.) could be reworked to incorporate it.

Suggesting changes to Ganon is soooo weird because I don't think he is bad at all and I really enjoy him the way he is now, it's just that compared the other characters he just doesn't shine.

The way I see it, Ganon has the most issues with characters who can camp well and characters who can lay on good amounts of pressure. I don't know what exactly would help deal with both, but a projectile would be nice for stage control. Anything that can be charged helps to discourage camping, be it a projectile or just a charged up punch.

I don't know, there are a lot of options to consider, but Warlock Punch is just garbage. It's gotta go.

As for sword mode, I feel like there isn't really a good way to give it to Ganon without invalidating his current moveset. A stance change has to offer something that the character doesn't currently have. For example, Samus combos better with fire and edgeguards/kills better with ice. That's a bit of an oversimplification, but whatever.

Anyway, a sword, the way I see it at least, doesn't really give Ganon anything he doesn't currently have. I can only see it offering more power and more range, invalidating the current moveset unless it had a drawback of being incredibly slow. Ganon is already slow, he doesn't need that. The other option would be to have a sword that is better at comboing, or something like that. I don't like that idea because it just doesn't make sense. A guy like Ganondorf doesn't pull out a sword to do less damage, he's not really the kind for finesse. It would just feel silly if implemented in that way.

Basically, a sword can only work logically if his current moveset is either made pointless or changed drastically, so, personally, I don't like the idea.

 

[RaynEX]

Regarding up-B, I think the biggest problem it has right now is the huge landing lag if you land on the stage with it, which pretty much forces you to always try and sweetspot the edge. If you do land on the stage with it and fail to ledge-cancel off of platform, your opponent nearly has a full second to punish. In contrast, other heavy characters like DK and Bowser have landing lag of a few frames at most on their recoveries.

Some characters have inherently laggy recoveries on stage. Sheik, C.Falcon, Charizard, Squirtle and a few others come to mind. If you buff Ganon in other aspects, you need to the leave his recovery lag alone. Or for purposes of character equity, remove the landing lag from all the characters I just mentioned because the argument you just made is valid for them too.

Not every character should have a fantastic recovery; its perfectly fine that character weaknesses are diverse (some have problems approaching, some can't grab combo, some have lackluster recoveries), especially if plans are being made to increase the effectiveness other aspects of their game. A good example of ****ty balancing in this case the new Mewtwo (who I love btw): incredibile off-stage recovery + drastically improved on-stage abilites. He shouldn't have both and neither should Ganon, imo.

Also, opinions on him getting a sword mode? Personally, I think it would be a waste of time and just convolute his simple playstyle, but maybe this is because I really have no idea how it could be handled. If people really want to see him use his sword, I think that some of his lesser used moves (fsmash, neutralb, dsmash, etc.) could be reworked to incorporate it.

edit: there's already a sword mode for Ganon in 3.0 that a programmer made and shared on youtube. Just search "sword Ganon project M" on ytube for the video + link and you can playtest it like I did. I think its very cool but would completely overshadow his non-sword mode and make the Ganon we know and love obsolete.

edit2: here I'll make it 10x easier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AXhTJMeqZQ

 

[Nguz95]

I think at this point it's clear the Ganon is not going to receive any major buffs any time soon. I feel it would be more helpful to discuss his matchups, strategies, and techs rather than continuing this discussion about buffs. For instance, have any of you considered using wizard's foot to tech chase after a side b since the move is now reversible? How have you been setting up your side bs? Have you noticed that aerial side b into utilt links very well with midweights and floaties? What alternatives to the Arty Vortex have you been using? Exactly what %s do the dthrow chain work? What are the best and most effective ways to set up grabs? How are you combating projectile characters like Samus and Link? To what extent does wavelanding on platforms help alleviate projectile pressure?

I think that a lot of Ganon's Melee tech carries over to PM very well, and his buffs, which are surprisingly many, should be explored to the fullest in order to actually ascertain whether or not Ganon needs buffs.

 

[Goon]

I was literally just about to make a post about aerial Choke to UTilt being one of my go to moves versus light characters. DThrow to UTillt is also amazing. If they tech poorly you can land it multiple times by doing a wave dash in between. I landed four in a row against a Marth I was playing friendlies with the other night. I caught him near the edge, and he had no idea what to do. With a little practice, I feel like it could definitely be a go to combo against squishy characters.

 

[Nguz95]

That Dthrow utilt combo sound sexy as hell. I'm definitely going to practice that.

 

[teluoborg]

Wait so you Dthrow and then Dtilt to tech chase/punish a missed tech ? More details pls.

Also to answer your question Nguz, I find the Dthrow CG to be the easiest on heavy weight medium fall speed opponents (Link, Ike, Bowser). I've practiced a lot against Link and you can literally chain grab him to death. You just have to master JC Grabs and you can Dthrow him to 90 or so percents when you can end it with a Fsmash.
In these cases their only options to get out are DI offstage or toward a slant/low platform. If this is the case you won't be able to continue your CG but you still get a free follow up.

On fastfallers that you can't Dthrow CG early (Falco, Fox, etc) I recommend chain grabbing with Uthrow instead, just be careful about platforms and stuff.

And since you can't CG floaties I recommend going for Usmash or Dair when you grab them at low percents. On some characters you can even get Usmash to connect both hits, making Dhtrow>2*Usmash a 50% combo.

PS : I flame choke to wizkick all the time. It's one of the easiest tech chases you have, deals tons of damage and kills.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

not a ganon main but i play him cuz he's a cool character, but i really think he should get something new for his neutral-b, other than that i have no idea how else to buff him

 

[Nguz95]

Wait so you Dthrow and then Dtilt to tech chase/punish a missed tech ? More details pls.

Also to answer your question Nguz, I find the Dthrow CG to be the easiest on heavy weight medium fall speed opponents (Link, Ike, Bowser). I've practiced a lot against Link and you can literally chain grab him to death. You just have to master JC Grabs and you can Dthrow him to 90 or so percents when you can end it with a Fsmash.
In these cases their only options to get out are DI offstage or toward a slant/low platform. If this is the case you won't be able to continue your CG but you still get a free follow up.

On fastfallers that you can't Dthrow CG early (Falco, Fox, etc) I recommend chain grabbing with Uthrow instead, just be careful about platforms and stuff.

And since you can't CG floaties I recommend going for Usmash or Dair when you grab them at low percents. On some characters you can even get Usmash to connect both hits, making Dhtrow>2*Usmash a 50% combo.

PS : I flame choke to wizkick all the time. It's one of the easiest tech chases you have, deals tons of damage and kills.

I didn't know that you could chain grab fast fallers with uthrow. It makes sense when I think about it, but It never occurred to me to try. I heard on the Melee boards that dthrow to usmash kills Jiggs and Peach at ridiculously low %. I'll look that up again and report when I find it.

On another note, it seems to me that the RAR bair should be explored a little. It has disjoint, and the hitbox comes out really quickly. However, it does not have excellent range, meaning it's probably better as a platform poke. I saw Kage do dthrow bair to cover backwards di against floaties (Samus especially).

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Would something as simple as a projectile-reflecting backhand, with a fast and weak hit-box be a better Neutral B? I see a lot of people asking for something different since it's so bad, but don't often see a suggestion like this. Just a thought, I by no means play Ganon enough to know what he actually needs to be competitive though.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Would something as simple as a projectile-reflecting backhand, with a fast and weak hit-box be a better Neutral B? I see a lot of people asking for something different since it's so bad, but don't often see a suggestion like this. Just a thought, I by no means play Ganon enough to know what he actually needs to be competitive though.

Honestly, that seems a little boring, but, as I've stated numerous times in several threads, just about anything would be better than Warlock Punch. The bar is incredibly low.

Anyway, Wiz Kick's buffed damage helps enough with projectiles in my opinion. Clanking with a fully charged Samus beam is sexy as hell. I would rather have a different tool then something as simple as a a reflecting backhand. That said, most characters' reflecting moves generally have something else going for them. For example, Mario's cape turns guys around, Mewtwo's reflector is also a command grab, and Spacie Shine is bonkers. As for what a Ganon reflector could also be capable of, I don't know, but it would need something else going for it.

It would be neat if Ganon had a move similar to his purple energy wave thing before his Ocarina of Time battle. That could reflect or destroy projectiles possibly, in addition to other jank, who knows?

Again, the bar is incredibly low.

 

[Nguz95]

I thought we were done talking about this lol. The kick pours through nearly everything that Samus has right now. The kick, when combined with his choke slam, makes for a very impressive arsenal of special moves. Characters like Marth and Cfal would kill to have stuff like that. The punch is pretty bad, but i don't think it will be changed, "bcuz Melee."

Anyway, does someone have some cool ganon tech? I'm sure it's out there, as Arty proves all the time, but I haven't found anything too groundbreaking.

 

[Player -0]

In my opinion Ganon's DACUS is pretty nice, he goes a set distance always *as far as I can tell* which is about half of his Side B? and you can do it without having to change a button to attack. You move fairly quickly forward and may be able to combo out of something.

Edit: Ganon's Up Smash is really powerful but the second hit really hinders it. I think an optional second hit would be nice (and the animation from brawl for the first hit) but it would probably be too good and turn into a Fox Up Smash that couldn't hit smaller characters.
Dacus single hit up smash would be insanely good.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I really don't like the Brawl up-smash animation.

Anyway, Ganon's DACUS/up-smash is pretty much perfect as is. It has enough power even when landing just one hit, and at low percents when they both link together you deal an absurd amount of damage. Plus, it's all about that inner hitbox anyway, the one that punts dudes sideways.

As for Ganon tech... We all know about the Warp Drive Choke, right? If you do an aerial Flame Choke just above the ledge, Ganon slides along the ground at high speeds and moves further than usual. It's pretty nice tech off the ledge.

Um... OoS up-b is still cool, right?

I've got nothing...

 

[| Kailex |]

Ganon tech... Down taunt?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Oh yeah, that reminds me.

Taunt cancelling the up-taunt repeatedly, or before going for an edgeguard is sweet Ganon tech.

 

[Urielhelix]

How often does every one use the up tilt?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Utilt is nice out of throws or Flame Chokes on some characters at certain percents. Outside of that, it's pretty nice whenever anybody ends up behind you after a dash attack, but the first hit won't always put them into position for the second, so it's kind of a crap shoot.

I find myself using it most in the DK match-up, for whatever that's worth. He ends up behind me a lot for whatever reason. Haven't put much thought into it, ha.

 

[teluoborg]

I use Utilt on preictable recoveries and yell "RESPECT FOR THE KING !"

I don't think Usmash needs a change, the move is really strong right now and all you need is a good setup like Dair or Dthrow.

The only thing that needs a change right now is his neutral B, I agree. BUT it needs a little more thoughts than what's been put until now.
Because Ganon is an offensive character that strives when he's applying pressure and struggles when he's getting camped or pressured.
It because he's weak againt projectile that he can be this strong once he closes the distance, so he isn't broken.

If you want to give him a reflector/projectile/something that alleviates long range zoning then he's gonna lose one of his core weaknesses, and for him to stay balanced the pmbr would have to attone his strenghts.

So if a change were ever to be made to his neutral B I'd prefer something that helps his offense rather than his defense.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

The only thing that needs a change right now is his neutral B, I agree. BUT it needs a little more thoughts than what's been put until now.
Because Ganon is an offensive character that strives when he's applying pressure and struggles when he's getting camped or pressured.
It because he's weak againt projectile that he can be this strong once he closes the distance, so he isn't broken.

If you want to give him a reflector/projectile/something that alleviates long range zoning then he's gonna lose one of his core weaknesses, and for him to stay balanced the pmbr would have to attone his strenghts.

So if a change were ever to be made to his neutral B I'd prefer something that helps his offense rather than his defense.

I pretty much agree, but what niche can a new neutral-B fill offensively? What is Ganon missing?

I'm so used to how Ganon goes about his offense at this point that it's hard to imagine what gaps could be filled. You could obviously just give him a Marth or DK styled charge attack, but he doesn't really NEED it. It would certainly be better than Warlock Punch, but it doesn't really fill a hole in his game.

I keep coming back to the projectile idea, ignoring the technical problems that the idea may have, it could provide stage control and somewhat of an answer to camping; however, as you said, you can't just remove the weaknesses of a character like Ganondorf and expect a balanced character. The same may be said of a reflector.

Also, thinking on the projectile, should Ganon really have any more help in his edgeguarding game?

I guess it comes down to this: What is Ganon missing in his offensive game that a new neutral-B could address? What else could be buffed/changed to address these problems? How much can his weaknesses be alleviated, reasonably speaking, without creating a busted character? What does Ganon need?

These questions are extremely important. Ganon is powerful to the point that any significant changes to his offensive game can make for an extremely silly character, while addressing his weaknesses in any noteworthy fashion is also a dangerous proposition.

 

[Urielhelix]

Did they also make Ganon a little bit bigger?

A projectile would be nice but i don't think it would be what he needs to keep his feel of power! I'm still for the neutral b charging and holding it like DK or hold and release like ike.

And Ganons Wizz Kick, I have yet to reverse it. could it be the frame i am inputting the turn?

 

[The PikMan]

You don't reverse it the way you'd reverse warlock punch you reverse it like a regular special, just think about moving the control stick diagonally behind Ganon when you're doing it

 

[teluoborg]

You're prolly too slow.

Also Dthrow has been nerfed indirectly because some characters are lighter.

 

[Nguz95]

But shield grabbing has been buffed tremendously because people don't slide around when they shield anymore.

 

[Urielhelix]

Ill try it when i get off work Thank you!

 

[SixSaw]

I think at this point it's clear the Ganon is not going to receive any major buffs any time soon.

Ganondorf is one of my priorities for next release, fyi.

:>

 

[Yanoss1313]

pwned

 

[CORY]

he still might not get any major buffs, and i'd honestly be surprised if he did.

he seems to be clooooooose but not quite there, and i don't think he needs large buffs to get to a good spot. probably just some way to not get shut out terribly by fast projectiles (and/or their users).

 

[Goon]

he seems to be clooooooose but not quite there, and i don't think he needs large buffs to get to a good spot. probably just some way to not get shut out terribly by fast projectiles (and/or their users).

This. I lose games to projectile camping frustratingly often. I mean, Wiz Kick can clank with a lot of stuff, but it doesn't have a fast enough start up to stop multiple projectiles. I think removing Warlock Punch and replacing it with some sort of reflector type move would be alright. I don't think it fits well with his kit though. It's such a conundrum!

 

[Kati]

Melee Ganon's >B went under some projectiles right?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Melee Ganon's >B went under some projectiles right?

It looks like it might have, but it doesn't look like (and I don't recall) anything too significant.

 

[Kati]

If it's anything like Falcon's in melee, or what this generic wiki entry says, then it supposedly can. I only thought of bringing this up as I recall someone saying that he has some funky stuff happening in the z-axis (maybe his arm isn't touchable). Anyways, a thought I had a long time ago was giving you Ganon mains the choice to preform either version (either by replacing neutral special or having command inputs along side Flame Choke). Melee's Gerudu Dragon differs from the Flame Choke in at least three ways:

-Go under projectiles.
-Serve as a horizontal recovery move without forced Ganoncides.
-Hit Opponents lying down.

Giving him this move wouldn't redefine him like a reflector. Rather, it would just add more offensive options and a tiny counter for projectile campers. And yes, I'm assuming that if Gerudu Dragon can't do those things already, that the PMBR would make it that way. Iirc, an aerial Gerudu Dragon doesn't spike. Reworking the landing lag and other attributes as they have done to Falcon would easily make the move more viable than it is in melee. One might think that if players are given a choice of an aerial choke or dragon capable of spiking that Ganonciding would be overshadowed, but I don't think this would happen. An aerial dragon still wouldn't get through shields, or ko opponents on the ground doing anything for that matter. Nonetheless, giving Ganon his Gerudu Dragon without Falcon's spike quality would still be an improvement.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Gerudo_Dragon


*edit*
From the melee boards:

Spoiler

Gerudu Dragon (side-b): Ganon’s best choice for covering several options at once at low/med%. When positioned properly, side-b covers no tech, tech in place, and techroll away. The problem with side-b: unless you catch your opponent on a missed tech, it’s possible for your opponent to DI down and stay grounded at low%. If they do not DI correctly (or if you catch them after a missed tech), you have options similar to what a dair leads to.

 

[| Kailex |]

I remember someone suggesting that ganondorf should be able to use his melee side-b if A was held, or something like that. It could be a bit buffed, as in not to go to helpless mode after succesfully hitting an airborne opponent

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Gerudo Dragon jank

That's an interesting idea.

Aside from going under projectiles, I would only see it being really useful at low-mid percents as a combo starter, with Wiz Kick remaining the go-to tech chase kill option. A combo starter like that would be awesome though, even if it was primarily useful at low percents. I wouldn't see it being a big deal for recovery either, but, again, an option is an option. Any mix-up to Flame Choke like that would be insane, in a good way.

I also like the idea simply because we already know it will fit alright into his kit, bcuz Melee.

I remember someone suggesting that ganondorf should be able to use his melee side-b if A was held, or something like that. It could be a bit buffed, as in not to go to helpless mode after succesfully hitting an airborne opponent

Ha, I would hope for a bounce of some sort similar to Falcon's. Aerial Gerudo Dragon was pretty bad, that's the part of the move I would want changed pretty significantly. I'm not sure how I would go about it though.

 

[SixSaw]

I don't think Ganon really needs any more close range options. Ganon is already excellent once he gets his opponents at arm's length. The flaw in his game right now that needs addressing is his total inability to dictate the terms of engagement, so to speak. It's been said,"Ganon doesn't hit you, you get hit by Ganon", and that sums the problem up nicely. Right now the 'dorf is always at a disadvantage if he makes the first move in neutral. He relies on the opponent messing up and creating an opening in order to gain any leverage. This is true of most characters who lack significantly disjointed hitboxes, but unlike Ganon, many of those other characters have ways of reliably pressuring the opponent into mistakes and thus create openings for themselves: Spacies' lasers, Falcon's speed and dash dance, etc. In order to be viable at a top level, Ganon needs something like that. Maybe a projectile, or maybe a mechanic like Lucas' Offense Up, DK's punch, or Wario's fart that gives the opponent incentive to approach.