Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[Kati]

You make very good points, but part of my reasoning is the Gerudu Dragon allows Ganon to exert more pressure when farther than an "arm's length."


And yeah, any buff raptor boost received could be applied to G.D. and tested by the pmbr.

 

[Anonistry]

I think something like the Gerudo Dragon really sounds like a good idea. Reading through the idea of a changed nB, I have a couple of ideas (anyone around Project Mewtwo back when we were doing that before the announcing of the clone engine will recognize these, probably.)

- Close to the Gerudo Dragon, a banishing flat or spinning lariat. Make it good against pure projectile spam, with projectile guarding, but perhaps somehow make it that the actual hitbox doesn't start until later, so projectiles are easily guarded and put the enemy in a place to get hit, but just throwing out this move without a good read or some care would allow for someone in neutral to use some quicker move to hit you out of it.

- Want magic? Try something more.... defensive. Probably also odd... Make it so he summons a kind of forward projectile "absorber" (as in not actually reflecting it back.) He can hold it for a few seconds, or release it; either way, at the end it becomes a temporary stationary projectile that Dorf uses to attempt to put the opponent in a tight situation, where it can add to or set up an offense. Probably ridiculous, but I never let that stop me from suggesting anyways. =P

Or just try something more reasonable and use that Gerudo Dragon idea, just tweaked for balance as needed. It even kind of fits his B moves, as if he had that, they all would in some fashion reflect mobility and approach. Although now that I say that, I kind of want him to have something more like Psycho Crusher...

EDIT: Oooh, one more idea! For anywho who has played IGAU, something similar to Black Adam's trait, where he summons three spheres around himself that can add to a combo's damage. For Dorf, it could go with the who charge business being brought up elsewhere. Being left alone by camping could allow him to more easily gain charges of this. There'd be three levels, and each level gives an orb, or something cool. They could have projectile guard, but also have use by being a passive way to add damage. Indeed, in keeping with the whole "his problem is that it is their game" issue, this'd be his best way to have more control over the momentum, at least as long as the spheres are up, as a misstep by the opponent before they expire would mean that they can protect Dorf even when he otherwise should've been in trouble.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

those all sound amazing but i dont think theyre capable of adding projectiles to characters who never had them so that pretty much cuts dorf's wishlist in half.
personally i dont think dorf needs any offensive boosts at all since power is already his thing. the guys in the tier list thread pretty much agree ganon is the lowest rung on the ladder. my opinions on what could change that
SPEED
jump cancellable wizkick, stored charge but weaker warlock punch ,longer wavedash
RANGE
more distance covered during f smash and grounded specials, an option between gerudo dragon or flame choke, a sword lol
DEFENSE
armor armor armor armor? ARMOR something to handle projectiles with. strap a franklin badge on him or something
he really should be trucking through missiles bombs and lasers at low percents (under 50% maybe?) maybe even some kind of "gets stronger overtime" mechanic
something that makes the fox player he's fighting say damn i need to approach instead of laser spamming like a beeyotch

 

[Nguz95]

I think something like the Gerudo Dragon really sounds like a good idea. Reading through the idea of a changed nB, I have a couple of ideas (anyone around Project Mewtwo back when we were doing that before the announcing of the clone engine will recognize these, probably.)

- Close to the Gerudo Dragon, a banishing flat or spinning lariat. Make it good against pure projectile spam, with projectile guarding, but perhaps somehow make it that the actual hitbox doesn't start until later, so projectiles are easily guarded and put the enemy in a place to get hit, but just throwing out this move without a good read or some care would allow for someone in neutral to use some quicker move to hit you out of it.

- Want magic? Try something more.... defensive. Probably also odd... Make it so he summons a kind of forward projectile "absorber" (as in not actually reflecting it back.) He can hold it for a few seconds, or release it; either way, at the end it becomes a temporary stationary projectile that Dorf uses to attempt to put the opponent in a tight situation, where it can add to or set up an offense. Probably ridiculous, but I never let that stop me from suggesting anyways. =P

Or just try something more reasonable and use that Gerudo Dragon idea, just tweaked for balance as needed. It even kind of fits his B moves, as if he had that, they all would in some fashion reflect mobility and approach. Although now that I say that, I kind of want him to have something more like Psycho Crusher...

EDIT: Oooh, one more idea! For anywho who has played IGAU, something similar to Black Adam's trait, where he summons three spheres around himself that can add to a combo's damage. For Dorf, it could go with the who charge business being brought up elsewhere. Being left alone by camping could allow him to more easily gain charges of this. There'd be three levels, and each level gives an orb, or something cool. They could have projectile guard, but also have use by being a passive way to add damage. Indeed, in keeping with the whole "his problem is that it is their game" issue, this'd be his best way to have more control over the momentum, at least as long as the spheres are up, as a misstep by the opponent before they expire would mean that they can protect Dorf even when he otherwise should've been in trouble.

You're BAAAAACK!
Ganon would be so cool with a banishing flat. That's totally his style.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Ganon doesn't need armor. We don't need two Bowsers, ha.

Banishing flat sounds neat though.

 

[SixSaw]

SPEED
jump cancellable wizkick, stored charge but weaker warlock punch ,longer wavedash
RANGE
more distance covered during f smash and grounded specials, an option between gerudo dragon or flame choke, a sword lol
DEFENSE
armor armor armor armor? ARMOR something to handle projectiles with. strap a franklin badge on him or something
he really should be trucking through missiles bombs and lasers at low percents (under 50% maybe?) maybe even some kind of "gets stronger overtime" mechanic
something that makes the fox player he's fighting say damn i need to approach instead of laser spamming like a beeyotch

Jump cancellable Wizkick sounds broken as all hell. Please happen.

Armor would be nice too, especially on dash attack. In the games we've seen Ganon is unphased by being impaled with magic swords, so falco's lasers should be no sweat for him.

Replacing neutral B with a move that reflects projectiles is another good idea. Maybe a backhand inspired by the tennis fights from the games, and perhaps projectiles he reflects increase in speed/get powered up to make it more Ganon-y.

As for a "gets stronger over time" option: what if Ganon's neutral special had him raise his fist in front of him in trademark fashion with the triforce glowing. The move has no hitboxes (maybe some light armor), but as the move is held, Ganon gains 'power'. Power is stored over time and can be accumulated between multiple uses of the move. As Ganon gains power, his attacks do steadily increased damage, and a dark/gloomy tint gradually develops over the screen (like how his influence corrupts the land in many of his game appearances). Let's say it maxes out at +50% (x1.5) damage after 60 seconds of accumulated power. All power is lost upon being KO'd. How's that for incentive to approach?

/wishful thinking

 

[Nguz95]

if he said "No one man can have all that power" while he did that I would be so happy.

 

[Anonistry]

You're BAAAAACK!
Ganon would be so cool with a banishing flat. That's totally his style.

Haven't exactly left!

Well... I guess I haven't said too much >.> Mainly because the Wii and game is with my friend, who still has a year in college, so... yeah. Not as much need for daily checkups.

At any rate, Inorite? I mean, he even would use a backhand, what with his pong skillz.

Although, since I brought up IGAU (which, btw, as I think about it I really like the idea of a chargable "aura shield" move for him) and we are bringing up the idea of a powerup move... something like Bane's Venom trait? For those who don't know, it is a truly unique mechanic, where he has 3 levels of Venom. Each level gives a buff to damage and defense. Further, at first level, his specials get 1 hit of armor, while at 3 that goes up and a couple of his normals get them as well. The Venom lasts a certain amount of time, but you can cleverly let one level near deplete, and then refresh the timer with another level. As a balancing feature, once Venom is over you go through a debuff period where you can't use anymore Venom and you are weaker.

The reason I am thinking of this is that Bane and Dorf actually kind of fill a similar spot, in their own ways, in their game's rosters: they are a more aggressive variation of a "grappler", perhaps better phrased in this case as a "heavy" due to SSB not quite having a command grabber like 'Gief. They are patiently aggressive, waiting to find an opening through which they can lay down hell. Bane, currently, is seeing quite a bit of popularlity after the last balance patch because of what he can do, and this is how he ties in even more specifically: far from the usual grappler's dilemma where it is the other person's game, he actually warps the game around him... as long as his Venom is up. His armor is quite effective, and his damage and defense makes him great without much meter... and indeed in NEC a Bane who made top 8 kind of noticeably was less concerned about combos than just unloading what he could during Venom phase, and then being extra careful off it. To top it off, he has a running tackle move that is... well, its good. If he can connect, he is safe, block or no (if blocked, it does a very unusual mutual knockback and ministun that prevents retaliation.) Add on armor from Venom, and he has surprisingly straightforward competence at getting to someone.

I think in a game like this, with Dorf's strengths in particular, this kind of thing might actually be better than just a move that can go through or counter projectiles. We have to be careful, because like said earlier, Dorf hurts. Alot. He gets to hurt so much because of his major weakness, which is how much work he needs to put into connecting. Now, I think he needs at least to have a reliable tool that can help even the odds, but something that is too reliable could make it too easy for him to hold control of the game's momentum... when he is the kind of character who needs the least amount of momentum to get the job done. Something like this buff/debuff state, however, splits the difference: Part of the game, it would be Dorf's turn. He can get through quite a bit of zoning tools or more obvious defensive tricks, and has a chance to do that thing where he nigh-on ToD's you if you refuse to accept that he has the floor. When that time wears off, it is up to Dorf to accept his weakness and play smart.

Aesthetic wise, you could make it look like some dark fiery aura or something. Maybe even sort of looking like it is building inside him with purple veins or something. Lorewise? Yeah, Gdorf actually has no problem arguing that he has the background to have an armored state. Stabbed, slashed, zapped by his own power, crushed by a giant tower, pierced by arrows blessed by divine radiance, sealed in another dimension... and he can still keep kicking like he didn't feel a thing. Dude is a tank. Perhaps you could somehow evoke the moment Ganondorf gets up after tower collapses in OoT, where he looks like he just got smashed (which he did, btw. By a giant tower,) and he is clearly being aided by his piece of the Triforce and his own will.

And I'll keep spitballing ideas until I hear something new for nB. Its just too pointless as it currently is, dammit!

 

[Giygacoal]

Ganon doesn't need armor. We don't need two Bowsers, ha.

Banishing flat sounds neat though.

Donkey Kong, Dedede, Yoshi, and Squirtle all have armor.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Donkey Kong, Dedede, Yoshi, and Squirtle all have armor.

Fair enough.

I still don't think Ganondorf really needs any armor though.

 

[Nautilus]

Hey, not sure if this is the right place to bring it up for ask for help on it, but I was wondering what you more experienced Ganondorf players do to deal with projectiles? Mario and Samus' leave me making really awkward approaches. Olimar, ZSS and Snake's projectiles(/pikmin?) are constantly catching me off guard. Link and Tink leave me in undesirable situations a lot. ROB reduces me to a sitting duck half of the time.

I don't have much experience against very high level players, but it seems like much more of a nightmare there.

'Bit off topic, I know.

 

[CORY]

Hey, not sure if this is the right place to bring it up for ask for help on it, but I was wondering what you more experienced Ganondorf players do to deal with projectiles? Mario and Samus' leave me making really awkward approaches. Olimar, ZSS and Snake's projectiles(/pikmin?) are constantly catching me off guard. Link and Tink leave me in undesirable situations a lot. ROB reduces me to a sitting duck half of the time.

I don't have much experience against very high level players, but it seems like much more of a nightmare there.

'Bit off topic, I know.

mario is a paaaaaaaaaaaaaain in the ass. you really just have to get used to your opponent's patterns and habits so you can try to jump over and fair or something right after he shoots one. you can also get cute and wizard's foot at closer range if they do it stupidly (iirc, they don't clank, unlike luigi's). otherwise, it's just about getting good at spacing and timing your f/dtilts and uairs to clear fireballs out safely while closing distance. it really is just a terrible situation.

samus isn't so bad. you can literally wizard foot through everything (maybe not fully charge shot, but every missile she has just loses to wizkick, so you can use that on badly spaced missiles). i also don't have much samus experience, though, so i can't help much past that.

snake's projectiles aren't a problem so much as his ability to just upb oos and avoid confrontation. that, and the fact that ganon's huge and slow, making him easy c4 bait. get used to dash attack and wavelanding to help close distance if he likes to grenade zone or something.

i have almost zero olimar, rob, and zss experience, so can't say much beyond the basics: learn their habits and patterns : /

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

samus isn't so bad. you can literally wizard foot through everything (maybe not fully charge shot, but every missile she has just loses to wizkick, so you can use that on badly spaced missiles). i also don't have much samus experience, though, so i can't help much past that.

Super missiles clank with Wiz Kick.

Anyway, yeah, properly timed Wiz Kicks are key to dealing with camping. Even a well timed Flame Choke in the air can mix things up and help close the distance. If you figure out what Wiz Kick clanks with and what it beats you should have an easier time in those matchups.

Aside from that, just work on your movement. Wavelanding, fast falling, and platform dashing can all help you avoid projectiles, mixup your movement, and close the distance. Just pretend you're playing a bullet hell, except your ship is only equipped with sick stomps and fiery fists.

Edit: Oh yeah, always make sure you're not giving them time to set up and camp. Always be on the hunt and force confrontation. Obviously this is difficult given Ganon's speed, but you can't allow them any room to operate. Be relentless.

 

[Player -0]

Jump cancellable Wizkick sounds broken as all hell. Please happen.

Armor would be nice too, especially on dash attack. In the games we've seen Ganon is unphased by being impaled with magic swords, so falco's lasers should be no sweat for him.

Replacing neutral B with a move that reflects projectiles is another good idea. Maybe a backhand inspired by the tennis fights from the games, and perhaps projectiles he reflects increase in speed/get powered up to make it more Ganon-y.

As for a "gets stronger over time" option: what if Ganon's neutral special had him raise his fist in front of him in trademark fashion with the triforce glowing. The move has no hitboxes (maybe some light armor), but as the move is held, Ganon gains 'power'. Power is stored over time and can be accumulated between multiple uses of the move. As Ganon gains power, his attacks do steadily increased damage, and a dark/gloomy tint gradually develops over the screen (like how his influence corrupts the land in many of his game appearances). Let's say it maxes out at +50% (x1.5) damage after 60 seconds of accumulated power. All power is lost upon being KO'd. How's that for incentive to approach?

/wishful thinking

That would be cool, although I think it should slowly trickle out too and only affect certain moves.

Super powered jab loooooooooooooooooooooooool.

 

[Anonistry]

ONE MOOOOORRE THING! /uncle

IF someone wanted to go the projectile route, I'd suggest thinking carefully. With his current build, a projectile would be... weird. Either it'd be too good and he has too much power, or it'd do little... and really do nothing for his gameplan. The only projectile I could think of that'd actually be a useful but not overpowering mechanic is one where you not only have to charge for best results... you'd have to charge it to use it at all, a la Tager from BlazBlue. The reward is that it is pretty boss at overpowering other projectiles and threatens the enemy's attempt to move freely, mostly by sheer speed and firepower.

 

[SixSaw]

That would be cool, although I think it should slowly trickle out too and only affect certain moves.

Super powered jab loooooooooooooooooooooooool.

Having it deplete over time would only encourage people to camp him...

The idea is that opponents get punished harder and harder the longer that Ganon lives. It puts pressure on them to get proactive about ending his stocks as early as possible as opposed to just patiently waiting for him to come to them. If they do that, I think they certainly deserve to eat 12-damage jabs.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

A projectile is tricky. I want it, assuming it's possible, yet I have no idea how it should work in order to properly fit with Ganon's moveset. Hopefully there are people who are smarter than me who can figure it out.

I'm liking the Power Charge ideas though. I'm imagining a badass aerial Power Flame Choke that bounces people at a dair-like height/trajectory with comparable damage, ha.

toogud

 

[Player -0]

Having it deplete over time would only encourage people to camp him...

The idea is that opponents get punished harder and harder the longer that Ganon lives. It puts pressure on them to get proactive about ending his stocks as early as possible as opposed to just patiently waiting for him to come to them. If they do that, I think they certainly deserve to eat 12-damage jabs.

I see what you mean, I just wouldn't want a Ganon to be super powered for like 2-3 minutes if he managed to power up.

I guess it would balance though if it took Ganon about 20-40 seconds to power up because it would give the opponent time to react.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

***(NOTE: This is from a thread I made recently, I was told I should have posted it here instead of creating a whole new thread)***

That is a mod for PM allowing Ganon to pull out his sword using the Down Taunt, the main focus of the mod is to create a balance between "Sword" mode and "Fist" mode. Its made by a member of the PMBR named Ashingda and it is quite balanced and its really fun, I recommend it to any Ganon player to try out.

Although that mod is great I still think Ganon should remain mostly the same but replace his more useless moves with better ones (some of which I'll borrow from the mod I posted)

1. Aerials:
These are without a doubt Ganon's "bread & butter" I think most Ganon mains know this and would not want to lose any of them. For myself though I think Nair is the weak link. Both in terms of play and of fitting the character of Ganon, by that I mean I could totally see Ganon preforming all his aerials in some form in a LOZ game but I cant see Nair, its too flashy and very nimble looking something I cant imagine Ganon doing.

Frankly I wouldn't mind it staying the same but I think a better option can be implemented.

Nair- Idea A: a sword swing (like in the video above). Whether Ganon is holding the sword at all times or he pulls it out of thin air (like Kirby's Hammer, Peach's Frying pan, tennis racket etc.) it would function the same, a nice mid range swing covering some of his front and bottom would make a very nice spacing move.

Nair- Idea B: Mewtwo's Nair, since the days of Melee I always thought that move totally fits Ganon. It reminds me of OOT Ganon so much and is just a great "wizardy" looking move, it could lead into combos or just be a good spacing move.

2. Specials:
These are a mixed bag, obviously Flame Choke is an amazing move and totally fits Ganon, Wizard's Foot is an amazing move but kinda of doesn't fit Ganon's character, Dark Dive is just a weird move to imagine Ganon preforming and Warlock punch is an atrocious abomination on all fronts and should burn in hell forever!

Now all kidding aside I think there are better alternatives to be had to some of these moves.

Dark Dive: In the video I posted Ganon's Up B has him swing his sword around him as he rises in almost a complete circle, this is great against edge guarding and something I think any Ganon player would like to have in his arsenal.

Wizard's Foot: an amazing move with no real problems except aesthetic ones. In the video shown above instead of his foot Ganon uses his sword in a thrusting motion in front of him. This would still function the same except now it has a longer reaching hitbox and is more fitting to the character. (Note: if the longer hitbox is a problem, Ganon could be made to hold the sword closer to his body with only some of it sticking out in front of him).

Warlock Punch: sigh..... such a horrible move, This needs to go! Unfortunately the PMBR stated no projectiles can be added to a character that doesn't posses an article for one. The best idea I saw was in the video above as fake projectile that gets weaker the further it gets and is followed by an optional sword swing. I'm sure many of you have great ideas for other replacements and I would love to read them.

3. Neutral A & Tilts:
Not many problems with these moves but there are a few better alternatives.

Jab: I personally like his Jab, but I cant deny how much better the Jab in the mod/video I posted is. Its a forward arching swing of his sword that covers more distance and is a better spacing move, Either way ill be happy with both.

Forward Tilt: Amazing move and it should never ever change!

Up Tilt: The new Up tilt PMBR gave him was a very welcomed change and I use it often enough, but the video above showed a better alternative. Its a fake projectile moving in an upwards arch covering some of Ganon's front and is head, great for juggling and setting up combos. I'll be happy with either one.

Down Tilt: Nothing wrong with it but nothing too great, on the other hand the down tilt in the mod/video is a great set up move and can be used as a nice juggle, taking inspiration from OOT this move fits great for Ganon and would make a very good move in Ganon's arsenal.

4. Smashes:
These are in my view are Ganon's biggest weaknesses, they don't fit his character whatsoever and are not good moves as well. If these moves were to change for the better I highly doubt many Ganon players would be upset.

Forward Smash: A short distance elbow strike that is hard to hit with and is punishable if missed, a better alternative is shown in the video/mod above its a forward thrust of his sword, it functions exactly the same as his elbow with also being able to be tilted in an angle up or down but gives it a much needed range increase.

Down Smash: Such a useless move too slow and it has horrible range, the video above makes it a slow 2 spin sword move that covers a good amount of space on both of Ganon's sides.

Up Smash: Although this move has a really nice DACUS its still extremely situation based and completely doesn't fit Ganon. The mod/video above taking inspiration form Skyward Sword has Ganon lift his sword up in a small arch and summoning lightning above him. the small arch in front of Ganon allows him to carry opponents into the real strike and the lightning above causes an extra hitbox for opponents to be hit by. Its not that powerful of move KOing usually above 130% but its a great tool to use.

5. Grab & Throws:
Since this thread is for ideas how to further De-clone Ganondorf I think just aesthetic changes to his throws are needed with maybe a greater KO potential. To this day it still looks horribly weird seeing Ganon grab/throw his opponents like C. Falcon, so I think just more fitting animations will add a much needed flair and uniqueness.

BUT Ganon's grab range should most definitely be increased! With such long arms it boggles my mind how short his grab range is, and its almost impossible to grab out of shield with him. For such a slow and big character I think Ganon needs a longer grab range by default!

On a different thread on the Ganondorf character discussion forum, a member of the PMBR named Shell stated quote;"Ganondorf is one of my priorities for next release, fyi. :>" this had me really excited and maybe this thread and our collective ideas can help give him and the PMBR some ideas or at least a view point to what Ganon players would like to see.

As a final question would you (if you want to see Ganon use a sword that is):

A- Prefer Ganon to hold his sword out at all times but only use it for the applicable moves?
OR
B- Have Ganon pull out his sword form thin air (like Kirby's hammer, Peach's Fsmash, Diddy Kong's Peanut Gun etc.) and use it when applicable?

To summarize:

What Ganon really NEEDS is:

1. Better, longer reaching Smashs.

2. A better recovery against edge guarding.

3. A actually useful Neutral B.

4. A longer reaching Grab.

What I WANT for him though is:

1. That awesome Down Tilt from the mod I posted (Ocarina of Time FTW!!!!).

2. More unique animations that differ from C. Falcon on every possible move and throw.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

So much to say, but here goes:

I cant see Nair, its too flashy and very nimble looking something I cant imagine Ganon doing.

Frankly I wouldn't mind it staying the same but I think a better option can be implemented.

Nair- Idea A: a sword swing (like in the video above). Whether Ganon is holding the sword at all times or he pulls it out of thin air (like Kirby's Hammer, Peach's Frying pan, tennis racket etc.) it would function the same, a nice mid range swing covering some of his front and bottom would make a very nice spacing move.

Nair- Idea B: Mewtwo's Nair, since the days of Melee I always thought that move totally fits Ganon. It reminds me of OOT Ganon so much and is just a great "wizardy" looking move, it could lead into combos or just be a good spacing move.

I agree that nair is somewhat out of place aesthetically, but functionally speaking it's outstanding. It's a great spacing tool, fast, and, of course, it gives us the Arty Vortex. If the move could be changed aesthetically, without changing its function, I wouldn't mind; however, I think it serves too great a purpose to be changed in any significant fashion.

Dark Dive: In the video I posted Ganon's Up B has him swing his sword around him as he rises in almost a complete circle, this is great against edge guarding and something I think any Ganon player would like to have in his arsenal.

I myself would much rather keep Dark Dive as is. Ganon would lose a lot if he lost the grab in favor of a sword:

1. Would no longer replenish his up-B when landing the grab. Along with simply hurting his recovery (marginally, but still), this would make meteor-cancelling less effective, as it's possible to recover from deep by latching onto the opponent that meteor'd you.
2. All the benefits of a grab would be lost (grabbing on shields and junk).
3. Horizontal knockback on the current Dark Dive is generally more useful than the upward one of the mod's I believe.
4. Would be a much worse OoS option.

There's probably more, but I think the mod's up-B would be just about strictly worse for Ganon. As for it not fitting the character, I honestly feel it makes a lot of sense for Ganon. That's just an opinion, so I'm not going to argue with you there, but I see no need for a change aesthetically or functionally.

Wizard's Foot: an amazing move with no real problems except aesthetic ones. In the video shown above instead of his foot Ganon uses his sword in a thrusting motion in front of him. This would still function the same except now it has a longer reaching hitbox and is more fitting to the character. (Note: if the longer hitbox is a problem, Ganon could be made to hold the sword closer to his body with only some of it sticking out in front of him).

Again, I think that aesthetically the move is fine. Ganon riding on a wave of darkness makes enough sense for me. Again, that's just opinion, so there's no reason to really argue about that. The mod's down-B hitboxes would probably have to be addressed, because they're a little bonkers as is, but it wouldn't be a big deal. Regardless, I would prefer Wiz Kick stayed the same.

Warlock Punch: sigh..... such a horrible move, This needs to go! Unfortunately the PMBR stated no projectiles can be added to a character that doesn't posses an article for one. The best idea I saw was in the video above as fake projectile that gets weaker the further it gets and is followed by an optional sword swing. I'm sure many of you have great ideas for other replacements and I would love to read them.

I've been saying it for a while now, Warlock Punch has got to go. There have been plenty of suggestions here, and I'm willing to believe that all of them would be better than the current Warlock Punch. The bar is crazy low.

Jab: I personally like his Jab, but I cant deny how much better the Jab in the mod/video I posted is. Its a forward arching swing of his sword that covers more distance and is a better spacing move, Either way ill be happy with both.

I'm not a big fan of the animation on the mod, but I can't deny that the range would be pretty sweet. That said, I don't think it's really necessary, jab is pretty much perfect as is.

Forward Tilt: Amazing move and it should never ever change!

Agreed.

Up Tilt: The new Up tilt PMBR gave him was a very welcomed change and I use it often enough, but the video above showed a better alternative. Its a fake projectile moving in an upwards arch covering some of Ganon's front and is head, great for juggling and setting up combos. I'll be happy with either one.

I've found so many uses for Ganon's new up-tilt that I can't really imagine it being gone at this point. I'm not sure which would be better overall though, but it's great as is.

Down Tilt: Nothing wrong with it but nothing too great, on the other hand the down tilt in the mod/video is a great set up move and can be used as a nice juggle, taking inspiration from OOT this move fits great for Ganon and would make a very good move in Ganon's arsenal.

I don't have any issues with his current d-tilt, but the mod's d-tilt is pretty cool. I believe the only real downside with sword Ganon's d-tilt is the lack of horizontal range, which is a fairly big deal. I'm not really sure of the hitboxes though, so I may be wrong. It's not a necessary change, but I'm definitely not opposed.

Forward Smash: A short distance elbow strike that is hard to hit with and is punishable if missed, a better alternative is shown in the video/mod above its a forward thrust of his sword, it functions exactly the same as his elbow with also being able to be tilted in an angle up or down but gives it a much needed range increase.

Forward Smash is fine as is. It's good on reads, can be comboed into with d-throw, and has fine range. Honestly, the range on the mod's f-smash is just silly. Like, "too good" silly.

Down Smash: Such a useless move too slow and it has horrible range, the video above makes it a slow 2 spin sword move that covers a good amount of space on both of Ganon's sides.

Down Smash is fine. Aside from landing it off reads, it can be comboed into if the opponent misses a Flame Choke tech and can easily lead into more combos at low-mid percents. At high percents, it's a straight up killer. If you use it properly, it's very effective. Situational, but effective.

Up Smash: Although this move has a really nice DACUS its still extremely situation based and completely doesn't fit Ganon. The mod/video above taking inspiration form Skyward Sword has Ganon lift his sword up in a small arch and summoning lightning above him. the small arch in front of Ganon allows him to carry opponents into the real strike and the lightning above causes an extra hitbox for opponents to be hit by. Its not that powerful of move KOing usually above 130% but its a great tool to use.

Up Smash is pretty much in the same boat as nair. Functionally, I love it, but I have to admit that it's fairly out of place aesthetically. Like a lot of the mod's moves, sword Ganon's Up Smash is just bonkers. I'd rather Up Smash stay as is, or only be changed aesthetically.

Since this thread is for ideas how to further De-clone Ganondorf I think just aesthetic changes to his throws are needed with maybe a greater KO potential. To this day it still looks horribly weird seeing Ganon grab/throw his opponents like C. Falcon, so I think just more fitting animations will add a much needed flair and uniqueness.

The only throw that I feel is sort of out of place is the back-throw. Falcon doesn't really have unique enough throws for them to seem out of place on Ganon in my opinion, but if they were changed it wouldn't be a problem.

BUT Ganon's grab range should most definitely be increased! With such long arms it boggles my mind how short his grab range is, and its almost impossible to grab out of shield with him. For such a slow and big character I think Ganon needs a longer grab range by default!

As for a grab range increase, I would absolutely love to have it, but I don't know if it would make sense balance-wise. Ganon can do absolutely dirty things out of his throws. Like, the dirtiest. His short grab range is probably a fair trade off for what he can do once he has a hold of you, but I'm not positive. It's definitely worth looking into though.

As a final question would you (if you want to see Ganon use a sword that is):

A- Prefer Ganon to hold his sword out at all times but only use it for the applicable moves?
OR
B- Have Ganon pull out his sword form thin air (like Kirby's hammer, Peach's Fsmash, Diddy Kong's Peanut Gun etc.) and use it when applicable?

Ganon just holding a sword, but only using it for a couple moves would be weird. Ganon pulling out a giant sword out of nowhere would feel jarring, moreso than the tiny weapons other characters pull out. I guess I just don't want to see Ganon use a sword. I think the only way it could be added effectively is if his base moveset was drastically changed, which I definitely do not want to see.

At this point, I feel like the only thing Ganon really needs is a new neutral-B. It'd also be great to see Gerudo Dragon reintroduced in some fashion.

While a few animation changes wouldn't be a big deal, I don't think there are any moves that desperately need it. Nair and up-smash are the only two that seem out of place to me, though it's not really serious. I can't really picture new animations that would preserve the functionality of those moves, and they're so fantastic that I want that avoided at all costs.

...and that's all I got.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

So much to say, but here goes:



I agree that nair is somewhat out of place aesthetically, but functionally speaking it's outstanding. It's a great spacing tool, fast, and, of course, it gives us the Arty Vortex. If the move could be changed aesthetically, without changing its function, I wouldn't mind; however, I think it serves too great a purpose to be changed in any significant fashion.



I myself would much rather keep Dark Dive as is. Ganon would lose a lot if he lost the grab in favor of a sword:

1. Would no longer replenish his up-B when landing the grab. Along with simply hurting his recovery (marginally, but still), this would make meteor-cancelling less effective, as it's possible to recover from deep by latching onto the opponent that meteor'd you.
2. All the benefits of a grab would be lost (grabbing on shields and junk).
3. Horizontal knockback on the current Dark Dive is generally more useful than the upward one of the mod's I believe.
4. Would be a much worse OoS option.

There's probably more, but I think the mod's up-B would be just about strictly worse for Ganon. As for it not fitting the character, I honestly feel it makes a lot of sense for Ganon. That's just an opinion, so I'm not going to argue with you there, but I see no need for a change aesthetically or functionally.



Again, I think that aesthetically the move is fine. Ganon riding on a wave of darkness makes enough sense for me. Again, that's just opinion, so there's no reason to really argue about that. The mod's down-B hitboxes would probably have to be addressed, because they're a little bonkers as is, but it wouldn't be a big deal. Regardless, I would prefer Wiz Kick stayed the same.



I've been saying it for a while now, Warlock Punch has got to go. There have been plenty of suggestions here, and I'm willing to believe that all of them would be better than the current Warlock Punch. The bar is crazy low.



I'm not a big fan of the animation on the mod, but I can't deny that the range would be pretty sweet. That said, I don't think it's really necessary, jab is pretty much perfect as is.



Agreed.



I've found so many uses for Ganon's new up-tilt that I can't really imagine it being gone at this point. I'm not sure which would be better overall though, but it's great as is.



I don't have any issues with his current d-tilt, but the mod's d-tilt is pretty cool. I believe the only real downside with sword Ganon's d-tilt is the lack of horizontal range, which is a fairly big deal. I'm not really sure of the hitboxes though, so I may be wrong. It's not a necessary change, but I'm definitely not opposed.



Forward Smash is fine as is. It's good on reads, can be comboed into with d-throw, and has fine range. Honestly, the range on the mod's f-smash is just silly. Like, "too good" silly.



Down Smash is fine. Aside from landing it off reads, it can be comboed into if the opponent misses a Flame Choke tech and can easily lead into more combos at low-mid percents. At high percents, it's a straight up killer. If you use it properly, it's very effective. Situational, but effective.



Up Smash is pretty much in the same boat as nair. Functionally, I love it, but I have to admit that it's fairly out of place aesthetically. Like a lot of the mod's moves, sword Ganon's Up Smash is just bonkers. I'd rather Up Smash stay as is, or only be changed aesthetically.



The only throw that I feel is sort of out of place is the back-throw. Falcon doesn't really have unique enough throws for them to seem out of place on Ganon in my opinion, but if they were changed it wouldn't be a problem.



As for a grab range increase, I would absolutely love to have it, but I don't know if it would make sense balance-wise. Ganon can do absolutely dirty things out of his throws. Like, the dirtiest. His short grab range is probably a fair trade off for what he can do once he has a hold of you, but I'm not positive. It's definitely worth looking into though.



Ganon just holding a sword, but only using it for a couple moves would be weird. Ganon pulling out a giant sword out of nowhere would feel jarring, moreso than the tiny weapons other characters pull out. I guess I just don't want to see Ganon use a sword. I think the only way it could be added effectively is if his base moveset was drastically changed, which I definitely do not want to see.

At this point, I feel like the only thing Ganon really needs is a new neutral-B. It'd also be great to see Gerudo Dragon reintroduced in some fashion.

While a few animation changes wouldn't be a big deal, I don't think there are any moves that desperately need it. Nair and up-smash are the only two that seem out of place to me, though it's not really serious. I can't really picture new animations that would preserve the functionality of those moves, and they're so fantastic that I want that avoided at all costs.

...and that's all I got.

Thanks for such a detailed reply.

I do agree with you on a few things.
Mainly Up B.

But I just can't agree on the smashs, I never see anyone use them in Competitive play (maybe a few times) most other characters you see the players use the smashes quite often with Ganon it's very rare. I frankly don't care if it's a sword, magic or fist they need to change. his smashs are downright useless most of the time.

The Fsmash in the mod has good range but is slower and has more lag so there is a trade off but is useable especially for edge guarding. But it really isn't "too good". Non of them are really.

The Upsmash is also better, although abit weaker it allows for better control when the opponent is above you and the horizontal swing at the start up allows you to catch people from the front.

Down smash gives good spacing and just covers a good amount of area but isn't too strong.

These mod smashs are just few in many other possible ways Ganon can improve, but I really do think he deserves better than what he has.

And I think having smashs designed specifically for him would improve gameplay with him a lot! The PMBR is super talented and I'm sure they can design unieqe and more importantly useful smash moves for Ganon.

A few other ideas I had:

If they replace his Warlock Punch (please do!) they can use that animation with the darkness affect and all for his Fsmash. Maybe also increase the range a bit and possibly make it a bigger hitbox (like some of the darkness affect is actually also a hitbox) and it could be tilted just like his current Fsmash. that would be a good replacement for that darn elbow.
(I really do hate his current Fsmash both functionally and aesthetically, that could be said about all his current smashs, and all his "cloned" moves aesthetically).

For Up Smash I always imagined something like Mew2's. It can function exactly like his current Up smash except it's a darkness energy ball or "aura thingy" doing the hit instead of a double kick. Also it would probably add a bit of (needed) range.

The down tilt in the mod does have horizontal range mostly in front of Ganon and a tiny bit in the back (try the mod you'll see how it works) it also provides a hitbox on Ganon that functions like Mew2's Nair. I can actually see this be his new Down Smash, it can function the same as in the mod except it would have KO power and would cover distance evenly from both sides imagine it like Charizard's Dsmash. (also its canon- ground punch from OOT)

Also about Gerudo Dragon, I like the idea someone else suggested that if you press A right after side B it changes the FC to GD.

From what I noticed Ganon's grabs aren't as good as they used to be and many other characters with great grabs (maybe even better than Ganon's) have a longer reaching grab than him, there is no doubt in my mind he needs a longer reaching grab.

Animation wise I would like to see more darkness affect and lightning effect on more moves, like Bair, Upair, throws, smashs etc. a really cool thing would be to have a darkness trail like on Wizard Foot on Fair, it would be even more badass!

Dark dive is cool but the way Ganon grabs the opponent can be different, maybe something similar to FC but stationary in the air could be cool. Edit: actually maybe instead of a stationary grab Ganon grabs the opponent by the head like in FC and than does a quick horizontal spin and throws them away and launches him self back and up in the process. It would function the same but have a cooler/fitting animation.
Pretty much any move that shares it animation with C. Falcon that can be changed imo should change, just so Ganon feels like less of a clone.

Try out the mod it's a lot of fun, also you'll most likely see how much better those smashs are, they aren't OP (except when compared to Fist Ganon) but because they were designed for Ganon they work like most other smashs in the game and are very useful. Unlike Ganon's current ones which were designed for a fast character like Falcon.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

As a preface to this, and I probably should have mentioned this before, I have tried out the mod. Anyway:

But I just can't agree on the smashs, I never see anyone use them in Competitive play (maybe a few times) most other characters you see the players use the smashes quite often with Ganon it's very rare. I frankly don't care if it's a sword, magic or fist they need to change. his smashs are downright useless most of the time.

I think the smashes are used often enough, but they are definitely situational. I don't think that's really a problem though, it's just part of the character.

The Fsmash in the mod has good range but is slower and has more lag so there is a trade off but is useable especially for edge guarding. But it really isn't "too good". Non of them are really.

That Forward Smash reaches halfway across Yoshi's Story, and it's definitely not slow enough for that to be a reasonable trade-off. Ganon has enough edge guarding tools anyway. All of the smash attacks on sword Ganon are crazy, except maybe d-smash.

From what I noticed Ganon's grabs aren't as good as they used to be and many other characters with great grabs (maybe even better than Ganon's) have a longer reaching grab than him, there is no doubt in my mind he needs a longer reaching grab.

Like I said, maybe Ganon could use a longer grab, but his throws are easily right up there with the best and are definitely as good as in Melee, if not better. B-throw and f-throw are situational at best, but d-throw and u-throw lead into nearly guaranteed set-ups at any percent on the entirety of the cast. Getting a grab as Ganon can easily lead into a kill at just about any percent if you play it correctly. At the very least, you should be able to land an aerial and get your opponent off-stage, and with Ganon's excellent edge-guarding game, that can easily turn into a kill as well.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

As a preface to this, and I probably should have mentioned this before, I have tried out the mod. Anyway:



I think the smashes are used often enough, but they are definitely situational. I don't think that's really a problem though, it's just part of the character.



That Forward Smash reaches halfway across Yoshi's Story, and it's definitely not slow enough for that to be a reasonable trade-off. Ganon has enough edge guarding tools anyway. All of the smash attacks on sword Ganon are crazy, except maybe d-smash.



Like I said, maybe Ganon could use a longer grab, but his throws are easily right up there with the best and are definitely as good as in Melee, if not better. B-throw and f-throw are situational at best, but d-throw and u-throw lead into nearly guaranteed set-ups at any percent on the entirety of the cast. Getting a grab as Ganon can easily lead into a kill at just about any percent if you play it correctly. At the very least, you should be able to land an aerial and get your opponent off-stage, and with Ganon's excellent edge-guarding game, that can easily turn into a kill as well.

Fair enough, you bring up good points. Btw I wasn't saying the mod was perfect I was just using it for inspiration for a viable competitive move set for Ganon. And when I played against other skilled players even with it the range it had (although it was helpful) it was not that crazy good or OP as your describing.

Also what did you think of my other smash attack ideas? I think they would keep the same feel current Ganon has but would be a bit better range/hitbox wise and would obviously be unique to him.

I don't agree that his situational smashs "are just part of the character " they are moves designed for a fast character stuck on a slow one. And they also don't fit "the character" at all.

Although I totally a agree with you about Ganon's throws I still really do think the grab range should be increased. I personally would trade a buff to grab range with a nerf to how good his d-throw and u-throw are, just so it balances out.

 

[teluoborg]

To summarize:

What Ganon really NEEDS is:

1. Better, longer reaching Smashs.

2. A better recovery against edge guarding.

3. A actually useful Neutral B.

4. A longer reaching Grab.

1. Not really, I think it's a good weakness for Ganon's smashes to lack range, compared to how powerful they are and on top of that you can set them up with a Dthrow on most of the cast.
Also most of Ganon's moves hit as hard as a smash, so he really doesn't lose inthe trade.

2. Ganon's recovery is actually quite good, he has 2 command grabs which so you can get past through a lot of things with grab armor.
His only real trouble offstage is catching the ledge, which is the same problem for approximatively everyone in the game save for tether users. So yeah it can be a pain, especially against characters with disjoints like Marth.
If there's one thing I'd want changed on his up B, it would be for Ganon to not be so free if the opponent gets deliberately grabbed and ledge tech

3. Agreed. It's been discussed multiple times here and here are the most recurrent suggestions :
-a reflector/deflector to deal with projectiles
-a projectile (bad idea imo because Ganon's playstyle is all about close range pressure)
-a chargeable punch like Marth's shieldbreaker
-a storable punch like DK's giant punch
-a focus attack similar to street fighter 4, with armor frames (my fav)

4. Maybe, maybe not. Ganon's grab game is ridiculously strong, especially Dthrow. When he gets a grab he can get a CG, a free aerial or a smash, he can even CG to death some characters (hi Roy).
Now it's true that Ganon's grab range is very short (especially if you compare it to Marth's haha), so my proposition would be to only increase by a little but give him a better slide on his JC grab.

What I WANT for him though is:

1. That awesome Down Tilt from the mod I posted (Ocarina of Time FTW!!!!).

2. More unique animations that differ from C. Falcon on every possible move and throw.

1. Honestly why not ? The only problem I'd see is since this Dtilt lacks range Ganon will have even more trouble CCing than he already has, which is a big meh for me. Also Utilt already has a quick hitbox inside Ganon, so it makes it kind of redundant.

2. Personally I don't care if Ganon and Falcon share similar movesets, because even if they look alike in appearance the small differences give both characters a very different playstyle. And since I like Ganon's playstyle a lot, I don't feel the need to change his moveset.

 

[| Kailex |]

I think that the only problem wth g'dorf is with his grab

 

[_Ganondorf_]

1. Not really, I think it's a good weakness for Ganon's smashes to lack range, compared to how powerful they are and on top of that you can set them up with a Dthrow on most of the cast.
Also most of Ganon's moves hit as hard as a smash, so he really doesn't lose inthe trade.

2. Ganon's recovery is actually quite good, he has 2 command grabs which so you can get past through a lot of things with grab armor.
His only real trouble offstage is catching the ledge, which is the same problem for approximatively everyone in the game save for tether users. So yeah it can be a pain, especially against characters with disjoints like Marth.
If there's one thing I'd want changed on his up B, it would be for Ganon to not be so free if the opponent gets deliberately grabbed and ledge tech

3. Agreed. It's been discussed multiple times here and here are the most recurrent suggestions :
-a reflector/deflector to deal with projectiles
-a projectile (bad idea imo because Ganon's playstyle is all about close range pressure)
-a chargeable punch like Marth's shieldbreaker
-a storable punch like DK's giant punch
-a focus attack similar to street fighter 4, with armor frames (my fav)

4. Maybe, maybe not. Ganon's grab game is ridiculously strong, especially Dthrow. When he gets a grab he can get a CG, a free aerial or a smash, he can even CG to death some characters (hi Roy).
Now it's true that Ganon's grab range is very short (especially if you compare it to Marth's haha), so my proposition would be to only increase by a little but give him a better slide on his JC grab.




1. Honestly why not ? The only problem I'd see is since this Dtilt lacks range Ganon will have even more trouble CCing than he already has, which is a big meh for me. Also Utilt already has a quick hitbox inside Ganon, so it makes it kind of redundant.

2. Personally I don't care if Ganon and Falcon share similar movesets, because even if they look alike in appearance the small differences give both characters a very different playstyle. And since I like Ganon's playstyle a lot, I don't feel the need to change his moveset.

We def all can agree his B needs to change, can you describe this so called focus attack? I don't play SF4...

I don't agree about the smash's they should be more useful, and maybe if they do get and increase in range they can lose done KO power to balance it out. I think my later suggestion in my other post are actually more viable for a Project M Ganon than to give him a sword.

I also do love Ganon's play style but just like I liked Lucas' playstyle and Ivysaur's before they were changed I'm sure it would apply to Ganon as well. Also as a LOZ fan I can't help but hate how funky and out of character Ganon looks performing some moves most notably the smashs and throws.

His aerials look awesome and his specials too I don't think it's too much to ask for animation and aesthetic changes where possible and if a move can be improved a bit in the process (look at my second suggestions for the smashs) than why wouldn't you want it?

 

[teluoborg]

Here for the focus attack :

Also I really like P-0's idea of making Warlock punch similar to a SF4 focus attack, the characteristics would be like :
-punch goes out when you release B, the longer you hold the harder it hits
-has super armor for one hit only, or some kind of heavy armor
-when you reach full charge the punch releases automatically and it breaks shields
-OR the punch itself could stun the opponent on place rather than send him flying, like ZSS' taser. The longer you charge, the longer the stun obviously.

Also about that LOZ fan thing, Ganon changes his fighting style in every game (mage in OOT, ninja in WW, barbarian in TP...), so having him use another style doesn't shock me more than that.
With that said the PMBR have made an effort to have his animations differ from Falcon when they had the opportunity (Ftilt and Dtilt, Fair and Dair have also been changed recently) so we might see more tuning in the future, and I don't mind this kind of changes.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Let's do a hypothetical scenario:

Tomorrow with no announcement PM version 3.1 comes out and Ganon moveset is now exactly like the "sword mode" in mod I posted. Since this ultimately makes Ganon better in most ways would you guys be upset? (If you haven't tried the mod it still feels like playing as Ganon but with reach and disjoint)

What if along with that they add Black Shadow or OOT Ganon as a extra playable character with Melee Ganon's move set?

This is just hypothetical so take it as such. I just want to know how how much you guys are attached to his current move set.

I would actually be happy and would look forward for new tournament footage with this "new Ganon" and I already know I like to play with this new move set.
And as a LOZ fan I would very much appreciate the change.
But I would miss "the fist" and "the stomp"

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Here for the focus attack :

Also about that LOZ fan thing, Ganon changes his fighting style in every game (mage in OOT, ninja in WW, barbarian in TP...), so having him use another style doesn't shock me more than that.
With that said the PMBR have made an effort to have his animations differ from Falcon when they had the opportunity (Ftilt and Dtilt, Fair and Dair have also been changed recently) so we might see more tuning in the future, and I don't mind this kind of changes.

I actually think the fact he has so many fighting styles in those 3 games only shows how much there is to build a unique move set from, and how lazy it is to copy another character's move set. Especially for Brawl when they had plenty of time to re-crate his move set.

The one thing that is constant in all those games you mentioned is that he always uses magic one form or another and has a projectile in some form.

So I think he should have a projectile.
And I don't mind the punch/kick style he has in SSB I just wish it was more unique to him with more fitting animations and more magic affects like darkness and lightning.

 

[Nguz95]

You can't add projectiles to a character that doesn't have them to begin with… That's rule no.1 of PSA. Ganon is not going to get a projectile.

 

[meow]

You can't add projectiles to a character that doesn't have them to begin with… That's rule no.1 of PSA. Ganon is not going to get a projectile.

In Brawl- they gave his Neutral B a projectile. I think it was a fully charged Super Scope with a slower speed. It was funny hahahaha. No but Ganon should stay the same, unless PM decides to do the Black Shadow thing.

 

[Rᴏb]

You can't add projectiles to a character that doesn't have them to begin with… That's rule no.1 of PSA. Ganon is not going to get a projectile.

Can't they hypothetically clone Ganon on a character with an article thus allowing him to have a projectile? I have a feeling they did this with Samus to give her a crawl.

*i could be wrong

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Can't they hypothetically clone Ganon on a character with an article thus allowing him to have a projectile? I have a feeling they did this with Samus to give her a crawl.

*i could be wrong

They def could use a clone spot with an article for projectile for Ganon. But than who would fill in his spot? (Black Shadow?)

As for crawling I'm not sure that is something that needs an article like a projectile.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I think the best option if hey go down the clone route (which I highly doubt, but I would really like) for a new Ganondorf is to have in his place Melee Ganon/OOT. Just for current Ganon mains who like the Melee version. And just like we have 2 Links we can have to Ganondorfs.

Or they add a new F-zero rep with Black Shadow.

 

[Rᴏb]

They def could use a clone spot with an article for projectile for Ganon. But than who would fill in his spot? (Black Shadow?)

As for crawling I'm not sure that is something that needs an article like a projectile.

Yeah crawling doesn't require an article. What I was alluding to was that a character's crawl attribute was cloned onto Samus to give her that ability. It's kinda like how Mewtwo was given his hover ability from Peach's float.

And I totally support the black shadow idea, but I'm going to be really surprised if they actually do it.

 

[Nguz95]

Crawling and floating are not abilities. They are codeable sub actions. This means that adding a crawl or a float does not require the PMBR to port a move set over a character. They have to create an animation for the move and then tie it to the appropriate sub action, giving them the new ability.

Here's what they would probably do if they wanted to add a projectile to Ganon:
First, they would have to copy his entire move set over a character with an article (Lucario, Lucas, Ness, etc.)
Then they would have to port his animations over the same character
Then they would have to change the article's properties (hardest part, since article editing is still relatively new)
They would have to change the character's entire sound bank to match Ganon's.
They would have to port Ganon's external GFX
They would have to create a new .rel file to allow the Ganon to function over his current slot.
Finally, they would have to work any of the bugs created by doing this. Trust me, there will be quite a few.

The main problem with this is that not every character uses the sub actions to perform the same moves. Also, not every character has the same number of sub actions. Porting Ganon's jab over the same number sub action in Lucario's moveset might not work, as Lucario has a jab string instead of only one jab.

On a separate note, porting Ganon over another character would not cause him to vacate his character slot. His files would still be in the same place they were before.

What I'm trying to get at is there would be an enormous amount of work required for something that might not even function properly. The PMBR is working for free after all. I would be surprised, and a little disappointed, if they started adding projectiles to characters that don't have them.

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

Hey yo hey yo. It's voodoo. BADDEST GANON IN THE WORLD!

I do think we haven't developed ganon's meta properly. But there are some things that bother me.

Lower Hit Box/Grab box on the down smash, jab, and Grab close to his body,


This issue is a carry over from Melee, however in Melee it didn't really hurt him as much since the cast is much taller. Apart from Sheik (who will admittedly always destory Ganon) all higher tier characters (and the vast majority of the cast) were in reasonable shield grab range if they whiffed their tech skill. However PM has smaller, quicker, more viable characters. Such as Diddy, Metaknight, Pikachu and others. This makes it difficult to properly pressure and punish characters. Also since missed techs are a big part of his game the down smash should hit the ground at towards base, basically inside the thigh. If it's out further it would look weird for you to get sucked in so far.


It's a laggy move, and it's a big whiff against faster characters that can turn a match. It's precarious for Ganon to be able to dsmash a character at his feet and still miss.

His Dash grab should be a little longer though. Even if you perfectly read some techs you can't catch some tech animations even in full sprint. That dash grab box is based on Captain Falcon's running speed, and has always been atrocious for ganon. However it should have a little more lag on the animation to compensate. Think the difference between peach's grab and her dash grab. I'm talking minutely longer here, since his forward b is so good.

Now I personally think if Ganon shields he should get whooped up on. His Shield game should be relatively poor since his out of shield priorities are so good. He's too strong for it not too be. That should be up to gamer to deal with the poor sheilding. He has to have some flaws.

Also Up B out of sheild is pretty good. You'll eat it if you whiff, but it's better than melee since his up b is quicker and he has less landing lag. It also sends at a pretty decent angle. Just don't use it against fox. Dair and Nair out of Sheild are also very strong now (before it was just up air and bair sometimes). And jump to forward B.

However considering the improved strength of projectiles, Ganon is just too poor versus much of the cast to be a real threat. Characters like Falcon as well as Sheik are really good against him. And that's fine, he should lose matchups as should all other characters.

He does need some counter for projectiles. I like the focus attack idea. However I think what would really help him is getting hit by a projectile or item and being able to wavedash after it. In air it would slightly stall his recovery and then propel him forward.

I also fully support using a different model for Ganon. I'm not sure how difficult it is, but if you could make him more like the prompted New Ganondorf I think it would build some hype.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well, this thread fell apart.

• Black Shadow/Ganondorf is just ****ing stupid. Seriously, I'm sick of this **** popping up every week.
• Two Ganondorfs is really unnecessary, as there are much better options for the clone engine in my opinion. That said, Toon Ganon would be sweet.
• If adding a projectile requires the use of the clone engine, that would be a waste of time. As much as I would want it, that's just the truth of the matter.
• Sword Ganon PSA is also a bad idea, in my opinion. As neat as some of the moves are, the range and safety that the sword provides Ganon in the PSA is just silly. It's not just range/disjoint, it significantly changes the way in which Ganon plays. Even as a stance change, it provides safer and strictly better options for almost his entire moveset, leaving no real reason to play Punchdorf.

Let's just get back to what this thread is REALLY about: finding a replacement for Warlock Punch.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Well, this thread fell apart.

• Black Shadow/Ganondorf is just ****ing stupid. Seriously, I'm sick of this **** popping up every week.
• Two Ganondorfs is really unnecessary, as there are much better options for the clone engine in my opinion. That said, Toon Ganon would be sweet.
• If adding a projectile requires the use of the clone engine, that would be a waste of time. As much as I would want it, that's just the truth of the matter.
• Sword Ganon PSA is also a bad idea, in my opinion. As neat as some of the moves are, the range and safety that the sword provides Ganon in the PSA is just silly. It's not just range/disjoint, it significantly changes the way in which Ganon plays. Even as a stance change, it provides safer and strictly better options for almost his entire moveset, leaving no real reason to play Punchdorf.

Let's just get back to what this thread is REALLY about: finding a replacement for Warlock Punch.

I totally respect your opinion, but i dont agree.

The Sword PSA does change the way Ganon plays somewhat but it isnt OP. against good players (playing as Sheik and Fox etc.) I do lose with that move set and its still a challenge to win against certain match ups. And Yes it is better than Fistganon but thats a mod not an official release. If it was im sure it would be balanced or Fist mode would be replaced entirely. And it would be only for the better, no?

Also i dont agree this thread is just to find a replacement for his B, if we can improve some moves functionality and animation wise than why not? Like i posed before -

"A few other ideas I had:

If they replace his Warlock Punch (please do!) they can use that animation with the darkness affect and all for his Fsmash. Maybe also increase the range a bit and possibly make it a bigger hitbox (like some of the darkness affect is actually also a hitbox) and it could be tilted just like his current Fsmash. that would be a good replacement for that darn elbow.
(I really do hate his current Fsmash both functionally and aesthetically, that could be said about all his current smashs, and all his "cloned" moves aesthetically).

For Up Smash I always imagined something like Mew2's. It can function exactly like his current Up smash except it's a darkness energy ball or "aura thingy" doing the hit instead of a double kick. Also it would probably add a bit of (needed) range.

The down tilt in the mod does have horizontal range mostly in front of Ganon and a tiny bit in the back (try the mod you'll see how it works) it also provides a hitbox on Ganon that functions like Mew2's Nair. I can actually see this be his new Down Smash, it can function the same as in the mod except it would have KO power and would cover distance evenly from both sides imagine it like Charizard's Dsmash. (also its canon- ground punch from OOT)"

^Would these changes really be an issue with Ganon players? they improve the moves ever so slightly, and their functionality could remain exactly the same if wanted, and they are unique to Ganon. Its a win - win.

Also hypothetically; Toon Ganon (or OOT Ganon, which ever you prefer) gets the Melee move set, and Ganondorf (TP) gets a unique, canon based move set on a clone slot. Would any one really be upset? I Think having Toon Dorf in the game would be amazing. dat robe....

We probably wont find a common ground/compromise on this issue but i do like throwing out ideas, so i hope im not annoying you with my constant "change Ganon campaign" lol. So please forgive me if I do, its not intentional.

On a replacement idea for B- I like the force attack idea but its hard for me to imagine how it would function.

I think a cape reflector/deflector (like he does against Link in OOT) would be cool i imagine it working similar to Peach's B.

As for his cloned animations, like Up air, Bair, Nair etc. If the PMBR can make those moves look more sluggish and brutish (like they did with Dair and Fair) instead of the more nimble ones he posses now, with a possible addition of more magic (darkness/lightning) affects, but keeps those moves functionally the same than I ask again, why not?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Also i dont agree this thread is just to find a replacement for his B