Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[CORY]

like, seriously, i honestly really really like smash4's grab system. you can make some weird/interesting grabs that way. like, literally shiek's ntsc dthrow, as only a setup/combo move.

pmdt pls?

edit:
@Project M
>: p

 

[net1234]

this was discussed earlier but is the insta aerial down b frame one? cuz a frame 7 oos option isnt that bad if u cant grab

 

[Scuba Steve]

this was discussed earlier but is the insta aerial down b frame one? cuz a frame 7 oos option isnt that bad if u cant grab

That only works from the ledge for weird reasons that I don't understand. Start up on aerial wizkick is way too much to be a decent OoS option

 

[net1234]

y dun we give ganon a shine liek falcos 2 deel with the projectiles? it solves his oos problem too. and it shud be purple. plus he could pillar. think about it

 

[Electric Tuba]

I'm going to hope for your sake that that's sarcastic.

If hitlag on dthrow was increased, would you be able to SDI further to escape? If so, that could be an option that would allow for followups but not chaingrabs for players with decent DI.

 

[Player -0]

You can't SDI grabs.*



*Except for Jiggz' F-Throw.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Throws don't have hitlag either, they have release points IIRC

 

[Electric Tuba]

All right, so that idea goes to the bin.

I guess it's more knockback to stop chaingrabs or they're in, aside from less hitstun (throwstun?) which would suck for followups.

 

[| Kailex |]

Just as telu said, vertical grab range, nothing more nothing less

 

[net1234]

i kinda want ganon to have a counter. i feel like that would be a good buff to his defensive game. maybe a reflecting counter or somethin like that.

 

[Kati]

What if jab could reflect? >_>

Seriously though, what's a good game plan against projectile spammers such as Link? all I can think of currently are platform stages and banning fd, ps1 or 2, and sv.

Is f-tilt effective against the rang?

 

[teluoborg]

Crouch canceling is effective against the rang more than anything else I've tried. And yes that counts PSing.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Crouch canceling is effective against the rang more than anything else I've tried. And yes that counts PSing.

I wouldn't crouch cancel it too much. Rang does 14% at close and mid range

 

[Player -0]

How is CC'ing better than PS'ing?

Link gets free damage.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'm pretty sure it will cause a knockdown at mid to high percents as well

 

[teluoborg]

Well from experience I couldn't do **** out of powershielding (tho it might be because I'm bad), while even at high percents you can CC it and not give a flying flip. Test it yourself if you don't believe me.

Yes it deals 14%, but the strenght of Link's boomerang is its follow ups. I don't care eating 14% when I'm at 120 if it means no guaranteed Dair after it.

Oh and you can't CC Link's Zair.

 

[Player -0]

You can cancel powershielding with anything I believe. I know you can cancel it with any move with no shield drop lag. Also I think boomerang knocks down at higher percents if you CC.


You can CC Link's Zair.

 

[teluoborg]

Not at higher percentages, where you can still CC the boomerang (it's cool to think but you should really test it). And I know what PSing does thanks XD, I just said that practically I couldn't get anything done with it.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Powershielding rang sucks because more often than not, Link will just get hit by the weak hitbox of it that does like 3 percent, or it just hits his idle shield. I would post what I do to deal with rang, but I just pay Falcon now and try to nair him in the face bunch because I'm fast and stuff.

 

[Player -0]

If he gets hit by the weak hitbox isn't that better than nothing? You don't take damage either.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Have any of you ever tried jabbing the boomerang out of the air? Or does that not work?

 

[CORY]

it can, but it can't be angled too much. at certain distances, it might not even be that safe, with jab's cooldown and all (or the clank animation, which is 30f, iirc?).

 

[ShadowGanon]

Yeah, at certain distances I can see why it wouldn't be good. But does clanking with a jab really give you 30 frames of lag? I use jabs to block uncharged Shadow Balls from Mewtwo all the time and it doesn't feel like that much...

 

[CORY]

that was the "iirc?" part ;x i slightly recall a 30f lag animation for clanks being mentioned, but i can't remember where and i'm also kind of lazy about researching it since i was busy this morning : p

 

[Phaiyte]

Guys. Uair the boomerang. You can thank me later. Don't complain about how weird the tactic feels until you get good at it.

You're welcome.

 

[Scuba Steve]

lol this is coming from the guy who says that you just have to jab TP hover nair and then Mewtwo is free

 

[CORY]

on the basis of the suggestion itself, though:

6f jump squat. uair goes active on frame 6. so, frame perfect, you can have uair come out on frame 12.

link's boomerang takes 27 frames to go active (actually release it). iirc, human reaction is aproximately 15-17 frames. you can almost do it on reaction, if all you're doing is waiting for boomerang release, and have uair active close to the same time boomerang goes active (assuming there's no travel time for the boomerang itself...).

i think it's a viable option, from the theorycrafting perspective, since you'll usually have a bit more time to deal with the boomerang travelling towards you and uair's hitboxes aren't terrible for stuffing out people (in case link tries to come in from above or something to counter your uair...). in practice, i can't say, since i don't have easy access to a training partner with a good link.

 

[Player -0]

lol this is coming from the guy who says that you just have to jab TP hover nair and then Mewtwo is free

That doesn't automatically invalidate his idea but whatev.

_______________________________________________________

I think it's more important to note how much endlag the option would have. Also you have to take in account how much room for error you have with the actual hitbox, for example, how good would Up Air be to say, Nair?

 

[CORY]

nair should work fine, but it's hitboxes are kinda specific and exacting. uair gives a wider spread above and in front of ganon. nair is good, if you can time it to hit the rang, so mostly when it's being thrown straight forward. uair would probably be better if link is throwing from the air, or is throwing it up.

 

[robosteven]

Uair's pretty fast too, gonna have to try this against Link.

Link's definitely a hard matchup for Ganon, but Link gets chain-throw-fair'd pretty hard.

CURSE THIS TINY GRAB RANGE

 

[_Chrome]

Maybe his neutral-B could be like Lucas' Offense Up except instead it powers up tilts, or aerials instead.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I would love the idea of an offense up for Ganon because even if it was minor, it would be incredible intimidation. It's important for people to be scared of and respect Ganondorf, so an offense up would basically be like "Oh **** now I REALLY don't wanna get hit" more than the usual attitude. Definitely would be fun to do too, given that Fair is already godlike strong. I support this.

 

[batistabus]

Ganon would be worse off with these changes

No.

So yeah, I'd rather have some combo breaker or anti juggle move (wizkick is not an anti juggle move, not with these hitboxes) rather than some poke moves or some projectile reflector/absorber.

Ganon has a really good combo breaker already...jab. He doesn't need one for when he's getting juggled. Too many characters have **** like that in PM already. When characters have something they can just spam when they're in trouble, it just ends up pissing people off.

Grab range pls

Ganon has some pretty good grabs/grab followups/chaingrabs. He doesn't need range. The only thing about his grab is that it's possibly the only grab in the game that can't reach some short/crouching opponents, but that's just part of match-up knowledge. Also, he has 2 command grabs.

Maybe his neutral-B could be like Lucas' Ofense Up except instead it powers up tilts, or aerials instead.

In Melee with proper reads, Ganon can kill with literally as few as three hits. He doesn't need a move that increases his strength lol. If characters have reasonable recoveries in 3.5, Ganon's power should be plenty intimidating as is.

 

[Electric Tuba]

His power's not really the issue, it's the lack of approach options and dealing with projectiles. More power is one possible option to help him succeed, as is a grab that doesn't miss some characters for no good reason.

Besides, this isn't melee.

 

[_Chrome]

No.
In Melee with proper reads, Ganon can kill with literally as few as three hits. He doesn't need a move that increases his strength lol. If characters have reasonable recoveries in 3.5, Ganon's power should be plenty intimidating as is.

Very true. He does need more stage control and consistency to better deal with tough matchups. As it stands, Ganondorf has about as much utility as Bowser, or a cardboard box (lol). So cool, but so risky!

 

[batistabus]

His power's not really the issue, it's the lack of approach options and dealing with projectiles.

I agree with this part so hard.

Besides, this isn't melee.

No, but the game would be much more enjoyable if recoveries were closer to Melee.

 

[| Kailex |]

Okay, dont change grab range at all

 

[DahremRuhar]

Port a weakened version of Warlock Punch to F-smash, replace Neutral B with a Pseudo-shine.

Ganon could swing his cape in front of himself briefly, reflecting any projectiles that it connects with. No offensive hitbox on it, but make it dash-cancel-able if it reflects a projectile.

I feel like this could solve some problems.

 

[| Kailex |]

Im scared of 3.5, I dont want ganon changed too much... But all of your replies imply that something changed and affected him greatly

 

[Electric Tuba]

I don't think our replies imply any change that is official, just that a bunch of us want some changes. Unless I'm mistaken..