Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[Scuba Steve]

Also, some people benefit from taking the spring out of their shielding trigger, or just assigning an unused jump button to shield for a more instantaneous feeling and timing.

Edit: Ninja-d. Sadness.

I had shield on X for a while, but I switched it to taunt so I could swag harder with more taunt cancels and footstools and stuff.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Do the thing where you hold R when you plug in your controller. It makes mine way more consistent because it makes the wii not recognize the light press input on that trigger.

I'll give it a shot.

You can also remove the spring on one of your triggers, though that requires a fancy screwdriver and a little more effort.

I don't think I have a tri-head, but that's not a bad idea.

Also, some people benefit from taking the spring out of their shielding trigger, or just assigning an unused jump button to shield for a more instantaneous feeling and timing.

Edit: Ninja-d. Sadness.

That's another idea, I may try one or all of these things

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I'm having trouble visualizing what this would look like. Is it an uppercut, or does he dash forward?

I actually really like his up smash right now, even if the hitbox is a little narrow.

Imagine just uppercut with the darkness effect (like on Warlock punch/wizard foot) and stationary like a regular Upsmash, The thing is if the player executes a DACUS it will look/act like his old Melee side B except pack a lot more punch cause it's an Upsmash. I think it will be really cool if implemented, cause it will be a throw back to the old Gerudo Dragon from Melee but at the same time be a whole new move for Ganon.

I actually don't like his Upsmash, there is no horizontal range at all it feels like Ganon's groin has to touch the oppenent in order to get the hit horizontally. and also it looks silly for Ganondorf to be doing... A windmill kick? Really? Any over head kick will look weird for Ganon. Nair is also pushing it but it's still better. I would actually add Darkness and/or lightning effect to all his aerials and almost all his moves to further distinguish himself from Falcon.

The only good thing about the Upsmash is the double hit and the weird direction one of the hitboxes sends the oppenent. But all that could be kept while making the move more "Ganon" friendly and not be a direct ripoff from C. Falcon.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Hey guys. I'm a Melee Ganondorf player from Florida and I happen to dabble in P:M here and there. I attended a tournament recently and happened to have a pretty sick comeback against some Lucas player. Check it out. I think you'll all enjoy it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8_1LDDZbzU

The madness starts at 5:53.

 

[GeZ]

Hey guys. I'm a Melee Ganondorf player from Florida and I happen to dabble in P:M here and there. I attended a tournament recently and happened to have a pretty sick comeback against some Lucas player. Check it out. I think you'll all enjoy it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8_1LDDZbzU

The madness starts at 5:53.

That was some mad composure. Props for being one of the only players who doesn't crack when they're getting dunked on. Bringing it back was intense.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Hey guys. I'm a Melee Ganondorf player from Florida and I happen to dabble in P:M here and there. I attended a tournament recently and happened to have a pretty sick comeback against some Lucas player. Check it out. I think you'll all enjoy it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8_1LDDZbzU

The madness starts at 5:53.

7/10 didn't end it with a waveland>up-taunt cancel>ganoncide


But really, that's pretty damn awesome. Keep it up.

 

[CORY]

I don't think I have a tri-head, but that's not a bad idea.
/quote]
alternately, if you have one of those small screwdrivers for glasses, you can use the flathead portion of it and wedge it into the slots and make something work.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I think I've got a little screwdriver, I'll look around. I did the thing where you press the bottom down as you connect your controller, but I'm still getting used to it.

How likely is it that I'll wreck my controller by opening it up?

 

[CORY]

unlikely. there isn't that much loose junk sitting around in there, it's fairly solid. iirc, the shield triggers have a funky slider that you need to notch back in when you reclose it, but that's not a big deal at all.

just don't lose your screws.

 

[ShadowGanon]

You can also remove the spring on one of your triggers, though that requires a fancy screwdriver and a little more effort.

Heh. I took the spring out of BOTH of my triggers.

I had shield on X for a while, but I switched it to taunt so I could swag harder with more taunt cancels and footstools and stuff.

You're a good man...

I think I've got a little screwdriver, I'll look around. I did the thing where you press the bottom down as you connect your controller, but I'm still getting used to it.

How likely is it that I'll wreck my controller by opening it up?

What CORY said.

 

[robosteven]

How utilized was Ganon's side-b in Melee? I know the grab has its setups and it in itself is a great move for mixups, but what do you guys think of the idea of making it so if you hold the button instead of just pressing it (like Snake's down-b) the uppercut (or overhead punch if you're in the air) comes out instead? Maybe the other way around. I don't know, I just like the idea of Ganon having more options.

 

[GeZ]

How utilized was Ganon's side-b in Melee? I know the grab has its setups and it in itself is a great move for mixups, but what do you guys think of the idea of making it so if you hold the button instead of just pressing it (like Snake's down-b) the uppercut (or overhead punch if you're in the air) comes out instead? Maybe the other way around. I don't know, I just like the idea of Ganon having more options.

That was tested in a dev build. It was alright, but honestly didn't really give him many more options. Flame choke is pretty much better in every situation.

 

[Electric Tuba]

So what do you guys think the recovery blog post means for Ganon? Do you think he'll change much, or stay pretty much the same?

I could see him getting another option (I'm not sure what...), but otherwise not changing too much.

 

[CORY]

oh, you'll see...

 

[Electric Tuba]

Tonight at 11, a local Ganon main died of anticipation for 3.5 for what we can only assume are mind-blowing buffs to the man's man in PM. More to come, now for the weather.

 

[CORY]

i wouldn't call them mind blowing.

 

[CORY]

actually, i kinda peed myself.

 

[GeZ]

So I've bullied my dev into letting me try the new build. Since cory is so secretive about this I'll assume I can't say anything, so there's really no point in saying this, but the gist is, soon I will be part of the secret club.

soon

 

[CORY]

i don't divulge stuff on purpose out of respect for the dev team. when they want to throw out that ganon REDACTED, then they'll throw it out there. until then, i just act like i'm cool or something : p

 

[GeZ]

It's a good policy though.

 

[teluoborg]

Whatever the changes are I hope they don't make Ganon broken.
I mean, the man already looks unbeatable when he does good (you know those times when you're in your opponent's head and make 2 stock disappear in 10s), so imagine if he's actually good.

 

[Electric Tuba]

If he ever becomes super op, I'm going to mm every MK in Texas to make up for brawl

 

[CORY]

i don't think the changes make him op, but i could be wrong. i only got to play around with his stuff for a few hours once.

i did beat ct| denti in a ditto with the new stuff, though >: p (on his like... second play with the new stuff... after i'd been playing for about 3 hours >.>)

 

[GeZ]

I got to play some matches against a guy who just moved into my town who's friends with boss and used to partner with m2k during early brawl, and I found that my Ganon gets eaten when the player has more game experience than me. It was bad.

 

[leekslap]

Hopefully its a chargeable reflecting slap ala OoT over Warlock Punch. I wouldn't mind a Mewtwo style nair either.

 

[Bazkip]

They should make Wiz Foot a homing attack
Call it the Wizzrobe Foot

 

[leekslap]

Sorry for double post but what if the up special is changes so you both go in the same tragectory ala Brawl Minus so you can follow up with a fair?

 

[Bazkip]

Sorry for double post but what if the up special is changes so you both go in the same tragectory ala Brawl Minus so you can follow up with a fair?

So I went looking for this and...doesn't seem to be at all what you're saying it does?

http://youtu.be/WqoEGU8cgUM?t=48s

but HOT DAMN PMDT PLZ
That'd be amazing

 

[GeZ]

Brawl minus is hell. No gusta.

 

[Bazkip]

Brawl minus is hell. No gusta.

I'll take anything to change the fact that grabbing someone with an upB while recovering puts you in a worse position than your opponent.

 

[GeZ]

I'll take anything to change the fact that grabbing someone with an upB while recovering puts you in a worse position than your opponent.

#truth

 

[leekslap]

So I went looking for this and...doesn't seem to be at all what you're saying it does?

http://youtu.be/WqoEGU8cgUM?t=48s

but HOT DAMN PMDT PLZ
That'd be amazing

It was the Ganoncide cancel side b but I mixed up the two because they both have explosions lol

It's that ^. But yeah dat up b needs some serious work! A spike might not be so OP considering how hard it is to land up b and a more straight jump after landing it could be the more reasonable fix lol! I think side b or down b should sped up a bit or have reduced lag. Speaking of Brawl-, has anyone ported dat Pichu to Project M? Kidding!... I weally want dat Pichu...

 

[leekslap]

Hopefully its a chargeable reflecting slap ala OoT over Warlock Punch.

Oh no! Forgot about PSA articles! Darn it Sakurai why did you make Brawl Ganon a clone again! Honestly ANYTHING would have been better! *sigh* Well armor's going to be harder to implement than Bowser but its the only way to fix his projectile weakness. Dash attack and nair are the only ones that make sense.

 

[WINK ;)]

Okay, here's my analysis.

Ganondorf as a Character

Strengths: Powerful, good range, great edge guard, good aerial game, Flame Choke (good for mixing up approaches, chasing, and comboing)

Weaknesses: Poor mobility, predictable recovery, useless Neutral-B

Place in the Metagame: Low-Mid Tier. I believe Ganondorf is viable, but it's undeniable that he is on the lower end of the spectrum. Ganondorf punishes mistakes hard, but is generally forced to play the opponent's game and wait for them to make a mistake. Ganondorf is especially punishing if the opponent is off-stage, but this is kind of counterbalanced by how abysmal Ganon himself can handle being off-stage. He has more recovery mix-ups than in Melee, but he still remains amazingly easy to edge guard. Overall, Ganon has a few great strengths and even more glaring weaknesses.

Room for Improvement

Neutral-B: The obvious one. This move is essentially only useful if there is a broken shield or a sleeping Jigglypuff. Even in those situations, a fully charged Smash attack or even an up-tilt will generally get the job done. My personal opinion is that the move should be scrapped entirely. If it was given super armor, it could find some small use in edge guarding, but Ganon already has plenty of options in that department.

My hope would be a projectile, just because that would give him options and be cool, but problems with articles, if my understanding is correct, would make it difficult/impossible to implement.

Either way, just about anything would be better than what he has now.

Recovery: I like the suggestion to give Ganon less lag when he successfully grabs off of Up-B, but I feel being able to jump out of it would be too much. Same for jumping out of side-B, but that seems slightly more reasonable.

I would like to see his Side-B snap to the edge more quickly. It's silly to see Ganon smear his face against the wall and then get punished for trying to mix-up the recovery. Mainly though, it just looks silly.

Armor: I oppose the idea of strapping super armor onto Ganondorf. For one, it is a feature that should be used sparingly and only when it makes sense. Bowser needs it, and he's a spiky armored behemoth. Squirtle goes into his shell and gets it, which makes enough sense.

Adding armor onto any of Ganon's existing moves, in my mind, wouldn't make a lot of sense. At the very least no move comes to mind that looks like Ganon enters a protected stance. Secondly, spacing is a big part of Ganon's game, and I fear that armor undermines that. That's more of a personal opinion, but that's my take.

Crazy Ideas: Replace Neutral-B with: A projectile of some sort, dark energy wave thing from before boss battle of OoT, or really just about anything.

Explosion of dark energy on bair to differentiate the attack from Falcon and more fully detail the disjointed hitbox.

Keep the fair animation the same.

New dair animation would be fine, but not the Brawl one.

Umm... sir... you just said he had a useless neutral-b.... FALSE! BLASPHEMY! I WARLOCK FIST PEOPLE ON DA DAILLLAAAYYYY!

 

[The Great Dorf]

I have a kind of "out there" suggestion, so bear with me. So, first of the normal suggestions (credit goes to other people for most...).

Light armor on dash attack (mario type projectile spam) and my reworked wizkick (falco type projectile spam). For wizkick, make it quicker (still sameish endlag), have light armor, and way less knockback. So it it is only safe if you actually hit the opponent. The DA would be used for situations where you cannot hit them cuz they are in the air. Finally, make jab and grab have lower hitboxes so you can hit crouching opponents. Thats the more normal stuff, I will update later with the more crazy stuff in a little bit.

 

[GeZ]

I have a kind of "out there" suggestion, so bear with me. So, first of the normal suggestions (credit goes to other people for most...).

Light armor on dash attack (mario type projectile spam) and my reworked wizkick (falco type projectile spam). For wizkick, make it quicker (still sameish endlag), have light armor, and way less knockback. So it it is only safe if you actually hit the opponent. The DA would be used for situations where you cannot hit them cuz they are in the air. Finally, make jab and grab have lower hitboxes so you can hit crouching opponents. Thats the more normal stuff, I will update later with the more crazy stuff in a little bit.

I thin these suggestions are a bit too out there, but something important to keep in mind is that the PMBR don't really check smashboards for suggestions, and would rather players discuss the current state of the game rather than make infinite suggestions for changes.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Sorry, didn't realize that I made that post with that account (I forgot I made an account with my main email and never posted on it, then made another a couple months later.)

Continuing from my previous post (by "The Great Dorf"):

Where the interesting ideas come in. My idea for his Neutral b. Make it chargable (can't be used without full charge, full charge is quicker and less powerful). Also, make knockback in between u tilt and fair, sets up for edgegaurds. Heres where it gets confusing (a mix of lucas and Lucario). When you have a full charge, you can use make a super charged version of each of his specials. If you hit, you keep the charge, if you miss, you lose it.

Super Charged
Neutral B: A quicker version of what we have now, slightly less powerful, comboed into.
Grounded Side B: Has a semi spike so you can use it at the edge. (Unsure of this one)
Aerial Side B: Give it a higher bounce so you can combo spacies/midweights out of it like you can floaties
Grounded Up B: Give it a bigger grab box and make it much quicker. Gives him an out of shield option if he has a charge
Aerial Up B: Make the grab and hitbox come quicker. Then upon grab, turn them around and throw them off stage.
Grounded Down B: Like the current one (cuz of my prior suggestion). Maybe a a buff to its speed since it needs a charge
Aerial Down B: Make it go horizontal, but not renew your jump

Its not perfect. Its probably too late for 3.5, I just want to know what you guys think. I had difficult time because unlike Lucario where you can just give him an extra kill move/spike/etc, Ganondorf needs none, so the default idea on non recover moves was "make it set up for edgaurds" like Grounded side b, neutral b, and aerial up b. Constructive criticism is helpful...

(also, about your comment @ GeZ , I am aware these changes won't happen and these aren't necessary. I use suggestion threads like this to test my "design skills", I guess. Just curious as to what people think of the changes I suggest.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I think a nice way to improve Ganon's recovery and his vulnerability to edge guarding would be to extend the hit at the end of Up B.
As it stands now Ganon swings his arm in an angle at the end of the move to hit any one edge guarding. Unfortunately this seems to be too short to be useful, especially against opponents with swords (Roy's neutral B, Marth's Fsmash etc.) I was thinking maybe a short darkness wave (shouldn't be longer than Roy's sword hit box as he recovers) would extend from his hand as he preforms the animation giving the move a larger hit box, and ensuring a safer recovery. Plus it adds to the whole Evil Wizard thing Ganondorf has going on

 

[ShadowGanon]

I think a nice way to improve Ganon's recovery and his vulnerability to edge guarding would be to extend the hit at the end of Up B.
As it stands now Ganon swings his arm in an angle at the end of the move to hit any one edge guarding. Unfortunately this seems to be too short to be useful, especially against opponents with swords (Roy's neutral B, Marth's Fsmash etc.) I was thinking maybe a short darkness wave (shouldn't be longer than Roy's sword hit box as he recovers) would extend from his hand as he preforms the animation giving the move a larger hit box, and ensuring a safer recovery. Plus it adds to the whole Evil Wizard thing Ganondorf has going on

Ooooooorrrrrrr just nerf everyone else's recoveries

(I personally like this idea)

(Lol. This guy below totally thought that it was his idea that I liked)

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Ooooooorrrrrrr just nerf everyone else's recoveries

(I personally like this idea)

Glad you like it

I thought it would be a simple but elegant way to decease the vulnerability to edge guarding without changing the move too much.