Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[AstraEDM]

Thanks a bunch guys. Ganon level ups incoming!

 

[| Kailex |]

These ideas, theories, strategies.... I cant comprehnd, mind too dumb. I dont know what im doing while I play, I just do it and it works.

 

[teluoborg]

Also known as autopilot, it works until a certain level I guess. If your autopilot works on everyone then you're godlike.

Main things I use to get grabs in :
-mixups after jab, simply dashing towards the opponent will make them shield. Mix it up with DA to keep them guessing,
-low % stomps, works on everyone,
-tech chases after side B,
-dash shield to force a spacing mistake from your opponent, doesn't work a lot since Ganon's grab range is ass but still,
-good old running towards a shielding opponent, running through them then pivot grabbing,

I don't always grab, but when I do I JC grab.

 

[| Kailex |]

Running through shield>pivot grabbing doesnt work for me anymore, good times

 

[Electric Tuba]

If the only change he gets is a reasonable grab range, I'll be happy.

On the flip side, after people get used to only getting grabbed at .01 meters grabs like Roy's are pretty surprising.

 

[AstraEDM]

If the only change he gets is a reasonable grab range, I'll be happy.

On the flip side, after people get used to only getting grabbed at .01 meters grabs like Roy's are pretty surprising.

the joys of being a ganon/mewtwo main

 

[Electric Tuba]

Had a thought in the shower this morning: What if Ganon's Up-B could be canceled into Side-B? It would give him more range and threat on his recovery with out creating any infinite jumping situations (freefall is still death).

I don't know how it would be accomplished in the game technically, but it might give him a recovery that's not so easily gimped if only for threat of suicides.

 

[teluoborg]

Sure okay why not, but Ganon's recovery is pretty good already with down B. It isn't as good as a lot of characters but it can definetely be worked around. I'd rather have a change to up B and side B landing lag.

 

[| Kailex |]

More like turbo mode

 

[Electric Tuba]

It would probably have to be a change to up-b, reducing the lag on side-b would make an already really good into a way too good move. I overuse it enough as it is

 

[AstraEDM]

I just want less lag after I hug with up-b so i'm not still being edgeguarded after punishing somebody messing up their edgeguarding
hell, maybe even change the angle they get sent at so they start getting edgeguarded themselves

 

[CORY]

so, on wario ware, if you ledge jump you can instant wl on the mid platforms. this is fun.

 

[| Kailex |]

A full waveland? Or just a normal one, because you can do it on other stages too.

 

[CORY]

full waveland? all i know is, since the platform is right next to the ledge, you can just jump from the ledge (as opposed to ledge drop, to make sure my terminology is clear) and wl on the mid platform very very quickly (it's almost like mashing the wl motion). you can either go back off the platform and regrab the ledge or you can go forward most of the way on the mid platform, but not fall off.

alternately, you can go to the top platform and do the same, but you'll obviously fall off, so you can try to mess with people a bit.

man, this just further cements wario ware as my favorite stage.

 

[maggot447]

Can I get an explanation on how and who Ganon's chaingrab works on? Cause I currently do a d-throw into dair, but if I can chain before hand, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

[CORY]

how is pretty simple. just dthrow and regrab. sometimes you'll have to read di (damage and fall speed dependent), but the concept is simple enough.

who is more complicated and i can't list everyone out. but to my knowledge you can dthrow cg:
link (you have to get about 10-15% to start it, though)
marth
ganon
shiek
bowser

someone said you can cg lucas, (kailex?) and that seems entirely plausible.

you can also uthrow ff-ers (spacies, diddy, falcon) from 0, then you can usually switch into a dthrow cg afterwards.

 

[| Kailex |]

Guaranteed cg on lucas, all of you should already know that (0%-60ish%)

 

[maggot447]

If I actually get a Wii, I think I will attempt to get a definite list on this; seems like a good list.

 

[teluoborg]

Works on Roy too, Ike in some way. I think I saw someone CG MK too.

Having a list would be great, but it's hard to do by yourself as there are times when you think you can CG someone but he can act before you regrab him (Link comes to mind past 50%).

 

[maggot447]

If I did work on it, I would do it with someone; DI and getting jumps would be what I would wonder and practice mode negates that I think.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I might be able to talk my brother into helping test this this weekend... no promises.

I'm fairly sure you can cg Ike at least a few times, and it helps that he doesn't have a normal fast enough to hit you between grabs.

 

[| Kailex |]

Yeah, hungry headcrab cg-ed a mk, it works and it could lead to an f-smash (that would kill)

 

[maggot447]

Also, what do you guys think of ledge grabbing by side-b off stage? I use it, but I haven't noticed too many using it in videos I have seen(although I haven't watched too much). I bait a Yoshi ofter cause he down-b's to ledge grab and I get there first with a side-b often.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Also, what do you guys think of ledge grabbing by side-b off stage? I use it, but I haven't noticed too many using it in videos I have seen(although I haven't watched too much). I bait a Yoshi ofter cause he down-b's to ledge grab and I get there first with a side-b often.

http://youtu.be/dQIqpnlJRRM?t=1m34s

Wavedash back accomplishes pretty much the same exact thing, but sometimes ya get lazy, ya know?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Also, what do you guys think of ledge grabbing by side-b off stage? I use it, but I haven't noticed too many using it in videos I have seen(although I haven't watched too much). I bait a Yoshi ofter cause he down-b's to ledge grab and I get there first with a side-b often.

I'll do it sometimes, usually when I'm not in danger of not making it back and the opponent isn't right on the edge, but it's still dangerous (especially if you're down a stock and don't want to suicide). You can also try and beat people to the edge like you said, but if you're a little slow you're dead

 

[maggot447]

http://youtu.be/dQIqpnlJRRM?t=1m34s

Wavedash back accomplishes pretty much the same exact thing, but sometimes ya get lazy, ya know?

I knew that, just as you said, lazy way of doing it; I fear I will azendash mainly.

 

[teluoborg]

Personally when it comes to edgehogging I like to pivot jump (aka RAR). It's as good as side B, but doesn't kill me in the offchance my opponent grabs the ledge before me.

Also if you wanna a do the CG research, you better do a thread of WIP so that everyone can contribute. Be sure that the victim tries everything to get out : the 4-5 DIs, jumping, airdodging, fastest aerial and invincible stuff (Zelda neutral B and co).

 

[maggot447]

Personally when it comes to edgehogging I like to pivot jump (aka RAR). It's as good as side B, but doesn't kill me in the offchance my opponent grabs the ledge before me.

Also if you wanna a do the CG research, you better do a thread of WIP so that everyone can contribute. Be sure that the victim tries everything to get out : the 4-5 DIs, jumping, airdodging, fastest aerial and invincible stuff (Zelda neutral B and co).

I am thinking some videos of this could also be very useful; some, such as myself, can see results better than reading the results.

 

[teluoborg]

If you want, but ultimately this kind of thing can be summarized as a number : from X% to Y%, or can be done Z times.

 

[Electric Tuba]

If you want, but ultimately this kind of thing can be summarized as a number : from X% to Y%, or can be done Z times.

I agree with this, but if there are some characters like peach that could Nair us out of it, it's important information to have.

 

[maggot447]

If you want, but ultimately this kind of thing can be summarized as a number : from X% to Y%, or can be done Z times.

I guess when you mentioned trying all the stuff in your previous post, I meant showing what every little thing(such as bad DI) that can be done, which seems easier to show in a video than in words(to me at least). With only percentage and z times, numbers are all you would need.

 

[CORY]

well, what you really need to know is "what's the percent range this is guaranteed?" because once you know that you can either hope the opponent does the wrong thing or just cut it off at that percent range and go for the finisher.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Alright, here's a list off the top of my head for CGs (please correct any of this if it is wrong:

D-throw into infinity with d-throw, early with u-throw:

Fox
Falco
Wolf
Captain Falcon

D-throw until 60-70%/into killing f-smash:

Lucas
Diddy Kong
Meta Knight
Roy

(note that with proper DI, these characters are capable of surviving the f-smash at around 60-70%, my opponent in the gif did NOT DI it)

D-throw until around 40-50%:

DDD(?)
Sonic
Marth
Link
Toon Link
Sheik
Ike
Zero-Suit Samus
Bowser
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Yoshi
Lucario
Snake

D-throw until ~30%:

Donkey Kong

No CGs:

Everyone else

This is all by personal experience. So, again, if you see anything wrong with this please tell me and I'll correct it.

 

[GeZ]

Can someone post a video of Ike getting CG'd? I was just playing literally 20 minutes ago and it seems like he comes out of the first Dthrow.

 

[CORY]

was it from 0? link is weird and needs a bit of priming (about 10%) to get the cg going. headcrab put ike in the same general camp as link, so he might need a little bit of damage to get started, as well.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Yeah, remember guys, I haven't sat down and actually tested this out and/or documented it, so there's probably plenty of error in that list. I didn't even know that Link had to be "primed" a bit before the CG worked, lol.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

my opponent in the gif did NOT DI it

LMAO, RIP JamnToast.

Real though, solid post, Headcrab. I'd been wondering about approximate CG percentages for a majority of the cast. There's been one in Melee forever, but I was surprised nothing had really been addressed in PM, at least not anywhere too accessible, so mad props for that.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Real though, solid post, Headcrab. I'd been wondering about approximate CG percentages for a majority of the cast. There's been one in Melee forever, but I was surprised nothing had really been addressed in PM, at least not anywhere too accessible, so mad props for that.

Ha, thanks. I keep telling myself that, at some point, I'm going to sit down and figure out the exact percents for all of the chain-grabs, but then I never do it.

Really something we could use though.

 

[MACKU]

Can someone post a video of Ike getting CG'd? I was just playing literally 20 minutes ago and it seems like he comes out of the first Dthrow.

I can usually only get in the 30% range when CGing Ike. I go for a follow-up stomp when I feel the Ike is about to break out.

 

[maggot447]

Really nice Headcrab! If I can talk my friend into it, I'll test this stuff and give my results!