Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[Electric Tuba]

I made a thread for the chaingrabs with a link to a google doc spreadsheet. I figured we might as well give it its own thread if we'll be talking a lot about it



I'll start with the numbers you guys have, I'll try and get exact percentages in the next couple days since I have somewhere to start

 

[Poodle]

so, on wario ware, if you ledge jump you can instant wl on the mid platforms. this is fun.

this.is.dope.

On a similar note, as I'm sure most of you know if you don't do any control stick input on your ledge jump on warioware you go to the inside edge of the top platform and directly into that teetering animation. When I was messing with it, I found that for whatever reason if I upair before hitting the top platform it will not only edge-cancel but will carry some forward momentum sliding you off the platform. So you can do ledge jump > upair > edgecancel > upair/fair/bair in quick succession.

What confuses me, and perhaps one of you more experienced players can explain, is that this is automatic for me when jumping off the righthand ledge but is very hit-or-miss when doing it from the left. My only thought is that I flick slightly to the left when csticking my upair and that's what give me the little bit of momentum to carry off the platform?
I'm a very inexperienced smash player so any input would help.

 

[Coastward]

wowzers i forgot to check the notifications on this thread.

ok so here's my update:

got thrid in teams with a buddy of mine at my area's first monthly. we beat the team that ended up taking it all to put ourselves in winner's finals, but lost in WF 3-2. super close set. ended up having to forfeit because it got really late and my partner needed to leave. got 17th in singles though, performed really bad all day. expected to get 1st seed in pools but i got 3rd, which then led to a bit of a struggling bracket. beat a diddy 2-1, then lost to an ivy 2-1. THEN I LOST TO A LAME SHEIK THAT I SHOULD'VE WON AGAINST GOD DAMNIT.

there was a tournament before this where i got 5th in PM. shoulda got 4th, maybe even 3rd but i CHOKED LIKE AN INFANT.

pm is hard.

 

[Purple Stuff]

Ganon: Analysis & Speculative Theory
New Ganon Main here. Been Playing PM for about 3 Months now, trying to get better and think more deeply about utilizing Ganon. Here are my thoughts. (warning: essay incoming. TLDR at bottom.)

Power:

Spoiler

This one actually throws me for a bit of a loop. I've always been under the impression that Ganon's deal is that he's all about big damage. That his trade-offs are pretty much speed/mobility for raw power. I mean, it feels that way during matches, and yet when I go into training mode and compare damages with respect to other characters, it actually seems quite underwhelming. Take Zelda for example: Her Fair and Bair, when sweet spotted, deal about 22 damage. Ganon's: fair is 17%. Bair 16%. Both Cases he is out damaged.

Another example with Lucas: His Bair does 15%. Ganon: Again, Bair does 16%. In this case he isn't being out damaged, but honestly 1% more doesn't exactly seems like a good trade in terms of speed for power. This is the guy that's suppose to be all about big damage?

I realize I'm sort of glossing over somethings. I'm not really taking into account hit stun, auto sweetspots, etc.And it's not all bad. Ganon's Dacus for example is monstrous granted you land it and not charge it. 44 damage in one go ain't a ****ing joke. That definitely feels more Ganon like. A move that makes people **** themselves if they see it barreling their way. That's what seems so polarizing to me. A contradiction. You got a big damage dacus, a Neutral Air that does a respectable 22% when both hits land, and then you got a Bair that does just 1 more percent of damage than a Lucas Bair. Just two complete polar opposites. I don't know, I guess I just have always felt that when it comes to trading fist, the only person Ganon should be clanking against is Ganon. (Not really. There's still Bowser and DK. But I hope you sort of get what I'm trying to allude to.)

Possible Changes For Better Viability:

Power:

Spoiler

See above for current opinion on power. I definitely feel he needs a slight buff to some moves to bring in-line the idea of Ganon. Not something I see proposed very much. Most likely with good reason. I'm probably just barking up the wrong tree.

Neutral B:

Spoiler

This isn't so clear cut to me anymore. Before I felt that this move really needed to be switched out to something more usable. But lately, after some testing, I feel as if I'm beginning to change my mind.

I've always felt that Ganon should really crouch cancel alot more than he shields. That shield is just a death trap for him. A fresh full shield doesn't even fully cover him. His feet still poke out at full shield. Shield Stab city. And his out of shield options seem fairly weak to me. It just takes too long for him to act out of shield. So he kinda gets stuck in there with all the pressure. But Acting out of Crouch Cancel seems a good deal faster. Maybe fast enough to make Neutral B Viable? I don't really know, guess I'm just sort of hoping.

Spoiler

youtube.com/v/QiUVBluBNJ4?version=3&start=92&end=98&autoplay=0&hl=en_US&rel=0

It seemed to work here. Although, taking a pessimistic stance, I was sort of hoping for that laggy move from zelda.

Anyway, I've seen some talk of turning Neutral B into a reflect. I'm not really fond of that idea. I feel that would be too easy of an option to deal with projectiles, and it shouldn't be that easy. Not for Ganon.

My idea is for B to charge a magic that actually effects the behavior of moves and options at your disposal for as long as you are able to hold that charge. Meaning you can lose the charge somehow. This idea will be elaborated more on the following topic.

Dealing With Projectiles: And doing it in style.

Spoiler

Wave landing. The method to Ganon's madness. It makes him look so slick. I've always loved how Ganon has this smoothness to him. His dacus is probably the sexiest thing I've seen in PM. I'm biased here of course. Anyway, it's nice that something that makes Ganon look good also works to give him an edge. Wave Landing into attacks just seems to catch people off guard. Those sudden burst of mobility just mesh so well with the trait of his character. Why not use that to further help him out?

My idea is to use wave lands to faze straight through projectiles whenever done successfully. Let him keep his spot dodge invincibility during his wave lands for projectiles. I don't know how often I tried to approach with a wave land into ftilt range only to have that idea stuffed with a pill.

With this added option, he would have a way to deal with projectiles that still requires some skill and still allow him to keep his mobility that already comes naturally from his use of wave lands. It has such good synergy with his avaible options in my opinion. And this is also where Neutral B comes into play.

Holding a magic charge from using Neutral B would buff up his wave land so that not only can he faze through projectiles but also faze through attacks for as long as he is able to hold on to the charge. The way he would lose his magic charge would be after receiving an attack, after hitting Neutral B again to use a faster version of Warlock Punch, or after using the charge to break any hitstun he is currently suffering due to a combo lock he is currently stuck in. This sort of option just seems to have tons of synergy with the options he already has at his disposal at this moment.

TLDR: Buff Ganon's damage a bit. Make Neutral B hold an ability effecting magic charge. Give wave lands invincibility to projectiles and buff that option whenever Neutral B is up.

 

[CORY]

about damage:

yeah, i've kind of felt that way, too. like, on a move vs move basis, it kind of feels like he's not that much better than other characters.

but then, you realize that he literally has no move, other than late hitting uair or nair, that doesn't deal double digits of damage. (maybe jab, too? i want to say it starts at 10 unstaled, though...). so, practically everything you do is at least 10%, and you can go up to 22% in a single hit off of dair or either hit of usmash, get that 24 or so off of a double nair hit, around 20 for both hits of dsmash or just fsmash, along with utilt's sweetspot; so on and on...

i feel it works itself out, because you just need to string together a few hits here and there and then, BAM! suddenly your opponent's at kill percent!

 

[Electric Tuba]

Cool ideas, but the waveland invincibility would make him OP as ****. Especially if it could go through regular attacks.

Like Cory said, I think his damage is good. Some attacks get outdamaged, but usually only by kill moves. If you can get a grab in and manage chain a couple down airs or an upsmash, they could have well over 60% from one grab.

The problem is getting that grab...

(Courtesy of Bazkip, Janon Social Thread #466)

 

[Coastward]

Cool ideas, but the waveland invincibility would make him OP as ****. Especially if it could go through regular attacks.

Like Cory said, I think his damage is good. Some attacks get outdamaged, but usually only by kill moves. If you can get a grab in and manage chain a couple down airs or an upsmash, they could have well over 60% from one grab.

The problem is getting that grab...

(Courtesy of Bazkip, Janon Social Thread #466)

you gotta SDI those hits to get those grabs

 

[Purple Stuff]

about damage:

yeah, i've kind of felt that way, too. like, on a move vs move basis, it kind of feels like he's not that much better than other characters.

but then, you realize that he literally has no move, other than late hitting uair or nair, that doesn't deal double digits of damage. (maybe jab, too? i want to say it starts at 10 unstaled, though...). so, practically everything you do is at least 10%, and you can go up to 22% in a single hit off of dair or either hit of usmash, get that 24 or so off of a double nair hit, around 20 for both hits of dsmash or just fsmash, along with utilt's sweetspot; so on and on...

i feel it works itself out, because you just need to string together a few hits here and there and then, BAM! suddenly your opponent's at kill percent!

Yea that exact thought is what had me a little confused, because in practice it actually doesn't seem bad. I guess its just one of those oddities where on paper it looks bad, but in actual play it tends to work itself out.

Cool ideas, but the waveland invincibility would make him OP as ****. Especially if it could go through regular attacks.

Like Cory said, I think his damage is good. Some attacks get outdamaged, but usually only by kill moves. If you can get a grab in and manage chain a couple down airs or an upsmash, they could have well over 60% from one grab.

Yea I can see how going through attacks can be a little much, that's why I figured a projectile only option would work out better.

But I honestly feel a move that redirects a projectile back at an enemy with the push of a button tends to settle higher on the over powered scale. And mario gots dat cape all day. At least this way it would require more skill in my opinion. It would also knock out a couple trouble spots in one go as well it seems. It would help alleviate the projectile problem, and help Ganon with his approach game (its not exactly known for being the best). It'd keep him on the move.

I feel it's sorta like his move set damage thing: Looks bad on paper, but in play it works itself out.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Something to deal with projectiles would definitely be extremely useful for Ganon, I agree. I wonder how difficult to implement the projectile-immune wavelands would be?

Another option is to give flame choke projectile invincibility. It could improve his approach/neutral game without being too powerful.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Give wave lands invincibility to projectiles and buff that option whenever Neutral B is up.

Holy crap, this could be so broken but I want it so hard lol

 

[CORY]

of course you would want something to make wavelanding better.

 

[GeZ]

Why not just make Ganondorf projectile invincible, like as a whole? That'd be pretty sweet.

 

[Comprehend13]

I think making only Ganon immune to projectiles (as opposed to all of the heavy characters) would be hard to justify. A form of projectile immunity would be a more logical buff to Bowser, given that he already has armor on several of his moves. I like the idea of immunity while wavelanding better. I don't know if that is feasible to implement though.

 

[GeZ]

Both of those ideas won't be implemented simply because it's too much, and too random. They'll probably modify some of his individual properties, or give him a new Neutral B, to make him capable of dealing with projectiles.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I mentioned making his neutral b like Olimar's Brawl down-b (and project m?), making him take zero knockback for 15 or 20 frames (don't remember exactly), but I'm not sure if that's really what he needs. It would make an already heavy character way too hard to kill, since Ganon could just whistle armor the few attacks that would kill him.

I think a better grab range is plenty for right now. Put that in and see what we can do with it, honestly I'm pretty happy with Ganon as he is now.

 

[| Kailex |]

All ganon buffs will make him broken, except for the grab range buff.

 

[CORY]

no, not really at all. he doesn't need drastic changes, but he needs something to help him not be camped out so hard in neutral.

and it's coming...

 

[GeZ]

no, not really at all. he doesn't need drastic changes, but he needs something to help him not be camped out so hard in neutral.

and it's coming...

I'm going to eat you from all this backroom patch dropping ninja hype. And I'm going to go bug the dev in my town so I can be a part of the secret clubhouse too.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Any estimate on a release? I'm really excited to try out any changes, whatever they are

 

[robosteven]

I'd be down with wizard's foot being able to reflect projectiles.

Flame choke having the same properties would be dope too.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Just learn how to power shield, guys...

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I just had an awesome idea!

What if the PMBR uses Melee Ganondorf's Gerudo Dragon animation & darkness effect (slightly modified to fit TP Ganon better and to not be exactly like Raptor boost) for a new Up Smash?
1) it provides more horizontal reach and would "fit" Ganon better than a windmill kick... And 2) if we DACUS the Upsmash we will get an even stronger version of Gerudo Dragon from Melee!

The move can still be a 2 hit attack like his windmill kick to we can get that sweet 40% damage if we hit both hits, but I think this can be a really cool idea.

What do you guys think?

 

[Scuba Steve]

You can learn how to powershield, but it's certainly isn't the only thing you need to learn in order to deal with projectiles. A lot of times powershields aren't even necessarily the best option. A lot of powershielded projectiles don't even end up hitting the person who threw/shot/launched them

 

[Electric Tuba]

I just had an awesome idea!

What if the PMBR uses Melee Ganondorf's Gerudo Dragon animation & darkness effect (slightly modified to fit TP Ganon better and to not be exactly like Raptor boost) for a new Up Smash?
1) it provides more horizontal reach and would "fit" Ganon better than a windmill kick... And 2) if we DACUS the Upsmash we will get an even stronger version of Gerudo Dragon from Melee!

The move can still be a 2 hit attack like his windmill kick to we can get that sweet 40% damage if we hit both hits, but I think this can be a really cool idea.

What do you guys think?

I'm having trouble visualizing what this would look like. Is it an uppercut, or does he dash forward?

I actually really like his up smash right now, even if the hitbox is a little narrow.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

You can learn how to powershield, but it's certainly isn't the only thing you need to learn in order to deal with projectiles. A lot of times powershields aren't even necessarily the best option. A lot of powershielded projectiles don't even end up hitting the person who threw/shot/launched them

Powershielding also removes shield stun, allowing you to actually gain ground with a projectile backing you up. It's good.

All I'm really saying is this: Ganon doesn't need any invincibility, intangibility, reflector, or whatever other zany idea we have cooking in our heads to deal with projectiles. Ganon players just have to learn how to powershield, mix up their approach, and take advantage of all of their movement options in order to deal.

In short, git gud.

 

[Electric Tuba]

How precise exactly do you have to be to powershield?

 

[GeZ]

2 frames

How precise exactly do you have to be to powershield?

Powershielding requires you to shield within 2 frames of the attack connecting with your shield. Since Brawl and (I'm assuming) P:M run at 60 frames per second, that means you half 1/30th of a second with which to powershield.

 

[Bazkip]

Aw **** god dammit @ GeZ

Useless post woo

 

[Electric Tuba]

Okay... Better than one frame windows

 

[GeZ]

Aw **** god dammit @ GeZ

Useless post woo

sorry Baz

 

[Bazkip]

sorry Baz

Nah it's fine you provided more info than I did anyways

 

[Scuba Steve]

Powershielding also removes shield stun, allowing you to actually gain ground with a projectile backing you up. It's good.

All I'm really saying is this: Ganon doesn't need any invincibility, intangibility, reflector, or whatever other zany idea we have cooking in our heads to deal with projectiles. Ganon players just have to learn how to powershield, mix up their approach, and take advantage of all of their movement options in order to deal.

In short, git gud.

I wasn't saying that Ganon has no ways to deal with projectiles. I was saying that powershielding isn't the best option in all cases and then I was explaining the weaknesses in it. Take this as an example. I powershield the laser successfully, but it reflects right over his head and I get grabbed. Powershielding is good and definitely worth developing a proficiency with it, but I'm just trying to say that you can't assume that once you are good at powershielding, you will automatically be able to completely deal with projectiles. You have to develop other parts of your play too. I'm not trying to whine about being bad Ganon against projectiles.

 

[teluoborg]

2 frames

Powershielding requires you to shield within 2 frames of the attack connecting with your shield. Since Brawl and (I'm assuming) P:M run at 60 frames per second, that means you half 1/30th of a second with which to powershield.

Powershielding is actually 4 frames, but only the first 2 will reflect the projectile.

 

[GeZ]

That's a good distinction to make, though for all intents and purposes to this discussion the result is the same.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I wasn't saying that Ganon has no ways to deal with projectiles. I was saying that powershielding isn't the best option in all cases and then I was explaining the weaknesses in it. Take this as an example. I powershield the laser successfully, but it reflects right over his head and I get grabbed. Powershielding is good and definitely worth developing a proficiency with it, but I'm just trying to say that you can't assume that once you are good powershielding, you will automatically be able to completely deal with projectiles. You have to develop other parts of your play too. I'm not trying to whine about being bad Ganon against projectiles.

I get what you're saying. It's not the holy grail of tech that will automatically just tip the scales in your favor, but the lack of shield-stun when you powershield can let you act fast enough to respond to your opponent's actions in many situations, which is further enhanced by the fact that they fully expect you to be stuck in shield for a little longer. Even if the projectile doesn't hit the opponent, it is very often the best option in most scenarios, especially when fighting characters with very little endlag on their projectiles like Falco and Mario.

The second part of my post wasn't even directed toward you, I was just responding to the torrent of silly ideas coming from this thread (reflectors and invincibility and whatnot).

 

[GeZ]

For the record, I think most people were joking about invincibility. I was, but I thought that that was clear in my post :v

 

[Electric Tuba]

Don't lie, if Ganon just didn't get hit by projectiles any more you'd think it was sweet.
...until Ganon got banned.
(a set of words never before spoken together!)

Anyways, I should probably work on powershielding a bit. I'm nowhere close to consistent and wouldn't count on being able to do it in a pinch..

 

[Scuba Steve]

Don't lie, if Ganon just didn't get hit by projectiles any more you'd think it was sweet.
...until Ganon got banned.
(a set of words never before spoken together!)

Anyways, I should probably work on powershielding a bit. I'm nowhere close to consistent and wouldn't count on being able to do it in a pinch..

Do the thing where you hold R when you plug in your controller. It makes mine way more consistent because it makes the wii not recognize the light press input on that trigger.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

You can also remove the spring on one of your triggers, though that requires a fancy screwdriver and a little more effort.

 

[iHook]

Also, some people benefit from taking the spring out of their shielding trigger, or just assigning an unused jump button to shield for a more instantaneous feeling and timing.

Edit: Ninja-d. Sadness.