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Gamespot Sakurai Interview: Character Customization, Smash a '4-player Battle Royal Action game'

TheTuninator

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
2,315
Hey, at least we know that he's looking at fighting game forums to see what they think of the differences between each game.

Perhaps the best way to think of it is: it's not the strength of the attacks that change--their power--but the playstyles and use of those attacks will change with the people who use them."

This appears to be what he means, though again not 100% sure.
Interesting. Still doesn't make much sense, though.

If he's actually allowing moves to have customization which directly impacts gameplay, I am going to get a bit worried.
 

Mr.Showtime

Smash Ace
Joined
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597
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FL
Hey, at least we know that he's looking at fighting game forums to see what they think of the differences between each game.

That is true, which I'm grateful for. He is a great game designer nonetheless. I just do not like the fact that the generation of fighting games has come to "their" version of fun. When they say it like that, I vision game devs with their pupils replaced by dollar signs.
 

MasterOfKnees

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My issue is, is that he doesn't understand that competition is also fun. The adrenaline that people get going to tournaments. Money is just a cherry on top, I have more fun meeting people and testing our mental reflexes against one another in a freaking video game.

What if people don't find random crap coming out of no where and killing you fun? I know I certainly don't. Fun is something impossible describe and it differs per person. If he is going to continue to go towards one side, its obvious he's looking at the money and not the true fan base. This is pretty much what Blizzard did to World of Warcraft. They made the game easier so that more people can ease into it. I'm sick of where games are heading nowadays and I feel like a geezer for even thinking like this. Why isn't competition appreciated anymore? Why must I cater to a casual audience? Why must I wait 5 years to become upset.........?

I hate money......
Using WoW as an example really just strengthens any argument about accessibility. I've played the game since close to the start of it, in Vanilla I got to experience som raiding, however as much as I wanted to get into Naxxramas, the endgame raid, I couldn't. Only 5% of the playerbase got to see Naxxramas, and furthermore in TBC only a bit over 10% got to see Kil'jaeden in SWP. In WotLK the game was made accessible, and way too much at that.

Same comparison can be made for Smash Bros: If Melee was too hardcore for some people (imagine if there'd been online play, all them Foxes), and Brawl was too accessible, then hopefully we'll hit a nice middle ground this time around, like I think WoW has done with MoP.

Also, tell me about this "true fan base" you're talking about, I'm eager to hear what makes a "true fan."
 

TheTuninator

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,315
I think we should be much more concerned about his confusingly worded statement regarding customization than his talk about accessibility, personally.
 
Joined
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My issue is, is that he doesn't understand that competition is also fun. The adrenaline that people get going to tournaments. Money is just a cherry on top, I have more fun meeting people and testing our mental reflexes against one another in a freaking video game.

What if people don't find random crap coming out of no where and killing you fun? I know I certainly don't. Fun is something impossible describe and it differs per person. If he is going to continue to go towards one side, its obvious he's looking at the money and not the true fan base. This is pretty much what Blizzard did to World of Warcraft. They made the game easier so that more people can ease into it. I'm sick of where games are heading nowadays and I feel like a geezer for even thinking like this. Why isn't competition appreciated anymore? Why must I cater to a casual audience? Why must I wait 5 years to become upset.........?

I hate money......

Well, money is the root to all evil, but I don't think that's his main objective, even though it's great incentive.

I don't understand why you are upset personally, because he could have easily just made it Brawl 2.0 honestly if it was just about the money, but despite how much we distort what he is saying, he's actually listening and acknowledging everyone for the most part. He is right, the silent majority does prefer Brawl because they are the casual players who don't understand the depth of the game.

Tournaments...eh. I mean they are fun and it's great to see people and meet new people, but the whole experience in itself (at least for me) is a heavy exaggeration of the human condition. Unless you are close acquaintances with the top players you can easily be disregarded, as these people have priority over everything. If you try to play a friendly match one of the players will insist that you remove yourself to play against him, or try to procure a money match or some **** like that. While this doesn't happen all the time, it can happen. If i'm not in the tournament/waiting for my turn to play, i'm just watching and standing until I run into another forced interaction with someone else, which kinda sucks; it's passive; i'm actively doing a passive activity, which makes me ask myself the question..."why didn't I just stay home?". There are some great times though, I do get to catch up with old friends and if i'm lucky play against them in tournament while being able to laugh and compliment one another, but these kinds of interactions in my opinion are few and far between. I feel like things are this way because the previous generation of smashers aren't that active, but when I'm with them it's usually cool as **** and we grab a beer and chill, I don't feel the "grab a beer and chill vibe" from this generation of players. Maybe i'm just getting old? Whatever...

I'm not trying to frown upon people who go to play with an objective, but I can't help but feel like i'm the odd man out. Watching high level matches are exciting, but I don't find them to be that big a deal now a days. Professional players deserve some reputation, but they are just people, and your desires and aspirations to play with them and be around them shouldn't cloud your sense of judgement and decency to others. I know gaming communities aren't all like this, but mind you that these communities are ideal for the socially inept. In the end, I just want to play smash with some chill dudes who have other interest and aspirations, but they're just much harder to find.





Because this **** isn't cuttin it.
 

Crispy4001

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Joined
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Messages
730
Same comparison can be made for Smash Bros: If Melee was too hardcore for some people (imagine if there'd been online play, all them Foxes), and Brawl was too accessible, then hopefully we'll hit a nice middle ground this time around, like I think WoW has done with MoP.
Nitpicking, but people probably wouldn't have gravitated so much to Fox online because of lag.
 

Mr.Showtime

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Aug 22, 2006
Messages
597
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Using WoW as an example really just strengthens any argument about accessibility. I've played the game since close to the start of it, in Vanilla I got to experience som raiding, however as much as I wanted to get into Naxxramas, the endgame raid, I couldn't. Only 5% of the playerbase got to see Naxxramas, and furthermore in TBC only a bit over 10% got to see Kil'jaeden in SWP. In WotLK the game was made accessible, and way too much at that.

Same comparison can be made for Smash Bros: If Melee was too hardcore for some people (imagine if there'd been online play, all them Foxes), and Brawl was too accessible, then hopefully we'll hit a nice middle ground this time around, like I think WoW has done with MoP.

Also, tell me about this "true fan base" you're talking about, I'm eager to hear what makes a "true fan."

I may have worded that wrong as there are opinions to what a fan base exactly is.

Thing is, people can learn. People have the time to research, come up with strategies, etc. I'm sure another Smash won't come out for another 5-8+ years....that's plenty of time.....really.....

They already made their "casual" game with their last game in the series. People know how to play the game now....
 

Maricalistaro

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There's no controversy here guys. He's simply stating he doesn't want to be bound by the rules of the classic fighter. Which smash has never ever been. It's been his mantra from the beginning and it was so for every game in the franchise.
 

Mr.Showtime

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Well, money is the root to all evil, but I don't think that's his main objective, even though it's great incentive.

I don't understand why you are upset personally, because he could have easily just made it Brawl 2.0 honestly if it was just about the money, but despite how much we distort what he is saying, he's actually listening and acknowledging everyone for the most part. He is right, the silent majority does prefer Brawl because they are the casual players who don't understand the depth of the game.

Tournaments...eh. I mean they are fun and it's great to see people and meet new people, but the whole experience in itself (at least for me) is a heavy exaggeration of the human condition. Unless you are close acquaintances with the top players you can easily be disregarded, as these people have priority over everything. If you try to play a friendly match one of the players will insist that you remove yourself to play against him, or try to procure a money match or some **** like that. While this doesn't happen all the time, it can happen. If i'm not in the tournament/waiting for my turn to play, i'm just watching and standing until I run into another forced interaction with someone else, which kinda sucks; it's passive; i'm actively doing a passive activity, which makes me ask myself the question..."why didn't I just stay home?". There are some great times though, I do get to catch up with old friends and if i'm lucky play against them in tournament while being able to laugh and compliment one another, but these kinds of interactions in my opinion are few and far between. I feel like things are this way because the previous generation of smashers aren't that active, but when I'm with them it's usually cool as **** and we grab a beer and chill, I don't feel the "grab a beer and chill vibe" from this generation of players. Maybe i'm just getting old? Whatever...

I'm not trying to frown upon people who go to play with an objective, but I can't help but feel like i'm the odd man out. Watching high level matches are exciting, but I don't find them to be that big a deal now a days. Professional players deserve some reputation, but they are just people, and your desires and aspirations to play with them and be around them shouldn't cloud your sense of judgement and decency to others. I know gaming communities aren't all like this, but mind you that these communities are ideal for the socially inept. In the end, I just want to play smash with some chill dudes who have other interest and aspirations, but they're just much harder to find.





Because this **** isn't cuttin it.


Lol fair enough. I'll relax a bit. I don't know, I've met quite a few people who I still keep in contact today. I guess I'm getting too old too. Let's get a beer sometime, sit on our asses, and play across the internet with some decent competitive play. =P
 

Mr.Jackpot

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Same comparison can be made for Smash Bros: If Melee was too hardcore for some people (imagine if there'd been online play, all them Foxes), and Brawl was too accessible, then hopefully we'll hit a nice middle ground this time around, like I think WoW has done with MoP.
It's nothing personal but at this point I'm really ****ing sick of the myth that accessibility and depth are mutually exclusive and that we need to reach some kind of magical "middle ground" between the two of them. There's no such thing as too accessible, but none of the depth hindering mechanics Sakurai did to Brawl made it any easier for newcomers to pick up. Melee's relatively high skill cap to Brawl is notorious now because of all the Melee vs Brawl debates here but I've yet to see a person pick up Super Smash Brothers Melee for the first time and say that it's too hard and/or confusing. Toning down the accessibility from Brawl is only going against the entire point of the Smash series, and creating a game less deep than Melee gives competitive players no reason to pick it up.
 

World

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Messages
37
http://kotaku.com/the-next-smash-bros-will-balance-casual-and-hardcore-513211771

Then when it came around to making Brawl, this was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction.

"So now, for this time around, we're sort of aiming for something that is in between those as far as the speed of the game. Because I don't really think this time we're in a situation where we're trying to accommodate that many new players."



But while tripping is out, randomness is something Sakurai feels is still an important part of the Smash Bros. series.

According to Sakurai, a little unpredictability not only makes fighting games more exciting, but also makes Smash Bros. less intimidating for newcomers. If you consider the entire fighting game genre, most games are designed to have the highly technical, complex style enthusiasts expect. And while this leads to some wonderfully deep games, it also tosses up a tall barrier to entry for anyone not already familiar with the genre.


Alright, I'm not sure which direction Sakurai is taking with the next smash. :/
 

XavierSylfaen

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Folsom, CA reppin' the 916
and yet, I think there are lots of people in the silent majority who don't post online who prefer Brawl.
sakurai no pls
casuals like brawl better because of graphics, more music, more characters, etc.
most competitive players want a more deep game with a high skill ceiling, but
CASUALS DON'T CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, THEY VALUE CONTENT OVER GAMEPLAY
It's nothing personal but at this point I'm really ****ing sick of the myth that accessibility and depth are mutually exclusive and that we need to reach some kind of magical "middle ground" between the two of them. There's no such thing as too accessible, but none of the depth hindering mechanics Sakurai did to Brawl made it any easier for newcomers to pick up. Melee's relatively high skill cap to Brawl is notorious now because of all the Melee vs Brawl debates here but I've yet to see a person pick up Super Smash Brothers Melee for the first time and say that it's too hard and/or confusing. Toning down the accessibility from Brawl is only going against the entire point of the Smash series, and creating a game less deep than Melee gives competitive players no reason to pick it up.
Basically this. Toning it down to make it more accessible is pointless because it won't achieve anything. Any average Joe can pick up Brawl or Melee, and he won't think "OH GOD MELEE IS TOO DEEP FOR ME I NEED TO PLAY THE OTHER ONE"
 

Chauzu

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Only worrying thing in this interview is that Smash, for him, is 4 player free-for-all. I'm worried because I want online to have more options than that, even outside playing with friends.
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
If players want randomness, it should be up to them to turn items on or off, pick this stage or that. I will say cases like Luigi Missile backfires, zipperfaced-turnips, or G&W 9ers have never disappointed me, but I would not miss them if they were gone.
 

Nitros14

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200
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B.C. Canada
The silent majority of people who don't care enough to get on the internet to talk about the game or travel or keep it alive

Sounds like bull$$$hit (sales) to me.
How much money does that put in Nintendo's pocket?

Anyway I prefer Brawl, but I play Bowser. "Slow" and "Defensive" are appealing words to me.
 

MasterOfKnees

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It's nothing personal but at this point I'm really ****ing sick of the myth that accessibility and depth are mutually exclusive and that we need to reach some kind of magical "middle ground" between the two of them. There's no such thing as too accessible, but none of the depth hindering mechanics Sakurai did to Brawl made it any easier for newcomers to pick up. Melee's relatively high skill cap to Brawl is notorious now because of all the Melee vs Brawl debates here but I've yet to see a person pick up Super Smash Brothers Melee for the first time and say that it's too hard and/or confusing. Toning down the accessibility from Brawl is only going against the entire point of the Smash series, and creating a game less deep than Melee gives competitive players no reason to pick it up.
Problem with doing so today is that online play is a must. People didn't complain about Melee because they were playing with their friends, so unless your friend was Gimpyfish you'd probably not be that far outmatched. If Melee was released today with a total lag-free online play, the newbie would get completely crushed, and before he could play online he'd have to sit down and practice L-Cancelling, Wave Dashing, Dash Dancing etc.

It can be compared to MOBAs today, which are so damn reliant on techniques and the meta game. Not even in the lowest levels of online play in MOBAs can you avoid those things, it sucks out all the fun. I'm sure the same thing would go for those advanced techniques, and it frankly ruins the game experience for those who want to play for fun without being competitive geniuses.

That's why accessibility is so important today, it wasn't back in Melee's time, but times have changed, no arguing with that.

The one thing Smash Bros has over all other fighters is that it's all about fun, we each see fun in a different way of course, that's why the best solution is to hit the middle ground. It's not fun for everyone to sit down and practice stupid techniques, but it's not fun for everyone either to not have any techniques to practice, it's a dilemma which can't be solved.
 

Jack Kieser

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Jesus, these threads make me so sad. Seriously. What is wrong with people; do they not read what they type before they post? Do we need XKCD's YouTube Comment Reader Virus to take over SWF?

"Where are the games that make me react in a split second?" We have that game: it's called "Mahvel". Let's face it: at a certain point, this becomes less about what is good or bad game design and becomes entitled gamers thinking they have the right to demand the mechanical equivalent of UMvC3 with Nintendo Characters and Mega Man. There has to be a point where people think to themselves, "Yeah, I love playing with these characters, but maybe this just isn't the game for me."

I LOVE Phoenix Wright. I love Dante. I love X-23 and Jill and Wesker. But, you know what? I'm trash as Marvel, and I'm not in a million years going to say that UMvC4 or whatever is next should slow down and have less complicated button combinations and all this other crap because, regardless of how much I love it and how much I want to play it... it's not the game for me, it's not made with me in mind.

For some of us, I feel we have that relationship with Smash, competitively speaking. It's fun, and we love to play, but competitively? It's just not the game we're looking to play. We want Mahvel, and when we don't get that, we complain that a mistake is being made. It's not a mistake: it's like that on purpose, and that's ok. We don't get to tell Sakurai that he's not focusing his design on the right people because he's focusing his design on exactly the people he wants to focus it on, regardless of whether that's Ken or M2K or not.

Jesus, let the guy work. If you don't like the game when it comes out, go play something else.
 

Smady

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Problem with doing so today is that online play is a must. People didn't complain about Melee because they were playing with their friends, so unless your friend was Gimpyfish you'd probably not be that far outmatched. If Melee was released today with a total lag-free online play, the newbie would get completely crushed, and before he could play online he'd have to sit down and practice L-Cancelling, Wave Dashing, Dash Dancing etc.

It can be compared to MOBAs today, which are so damn reliant on techniques and the meta game. Not even in the lowest levels of online play in MOBAs can you avoid those things, it sucks out all the fun. I'm sure the same thing would go for those advanced techniques, and it frankly ruins the game experience for those who want to play for fun without being competitive geniuses.

That's why accessibility is so important today, it wasn't back in Melee's time, but times have changed, no arguing with that.

The one thing Smash Bros has over all other fighters is that it's all about fun, we each see fun in a different way of course, that's why the best solution is to hit the middle ground. It's not fun for everyone to sit down and practice stupid techniques, but it's not fun for everyone either to not have any techniques to practice, it's a dilemma which can't be solved.
The problem with this argument is that Brawl was not capable of having competitive matches online, you only get to play with friends, obviously of your own choosing, or randomly. There's almost no chance of finding a tournament player or highly skilled player on the other end, as they're a tiny percentage of players, unless you go out of your way to find them.

While there may be good online for Smash 4, there is still far more room for casual players than in other games like Street Fighter 4 because of the density of modes. If you don't want No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination, you could easily filter it out, if Sakurai adds that feature which is in many other online fighting games. If you want items or a 4-man, again, it's easy to add, or just play with friends. My point is, you'd need to make quite the leap to find yourself in the same position as other competitive fighting games and by its nature Smash is naturally adaptable to different playing styles. This is why I find it baffling that Sakurai adds features to Smash Bros. that are meant to make it less competitive. They don't actually do that, all they do is hamper competitive play. It's reminiscent of DRM in how it shuts you down if you try to do anything 'illegal,' but it's up to the players to do what they want with the game and Nintendo trying to force them to play one way is reprehensible.
 

TreK

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So, regarding the interview. Cookies for :
-Saying that fighting games are boooring
-Not growing Smash into any sort of genre

And no cookies for :
-Thinking that competitivity and accessibility are contraries
 

XavierSylfaen

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People didn't complain about Melee because they were playing with their friends, so unless your friend was Gimpyfish you'd probably not be that far outmatched. If Melee was released today with a total lag-free online play, the newbie would get completely crushed, and before he could play online he'd have to sit down and practice L-Cancelling, Wave Dashing, Dash Dancing etc.

it's a dilemma which can't be solved.

just include ELO or an ELO alternative that's not visible to players so that matchmaking pairs people of comparable skill together

oh **** I solved an unsolvable dilemma somebody call mensa
 

MasterOfKnees

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just include ELO or an ELO alternative that's not visible to players so that matchmaking pairs people of comparable skill together

oh **** I solved an unsolvable dilemma somebody call mensa
Sure doesn't always work, you'll always find players who start a new account just to bash the noobs. I haven't played a single game with an ELO or level system which isn't plagued by this.
 

Cobalsh

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I can't stress how grateful I am that it's Sakurai who's in charge of a Nintendo All-Stars game. He makes decisions carefully, he doesn't limit himself, he listens to the fans but doesn't do everything we say because in the end he's the one who knows the most about game developing of the two parts. He also knows that it's the unsatisfied people who are vocal, where as satisfied people usually aren't vocal. And boy am I glad he sees the game as much more than a lousy competitive fighter, because while that can be fun, Smash Bros is first and foremost a party game, and that's how the majority plays it.

To think, it could have been someone hell bent on making a Nintendo All-Stars Mario Party rip-off which would cash in every year instead. It just seems like all the stars aligned when Sakurai decided to work on the franchise, he takes the development of the game very seriously, and I'm so glad that it's such a capable guy who's in charge of making the best possible clash between Nintendo characters.
One day, Sakurai's going to retire, and hopefully a newer and bright-eyed young game dev will continue this great tradition.
 

Luigi player

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What does the 50-meter-dash, a personal performance based sporting event, have anything to do with the kind of competition present in Smash titles?
He's basically saying he doesn't want the winner to be decided by being better at only one thing, but more things (especially adapting and such?).
 

Mr.Jackpot

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Jesus, these threads make me so sad. Seriously. What is wrong with people; do they not read what they type before they post? Do we need XKCD's YouTube Comment Reader Virus to take over SWF?

"Where are the games that make me react in a split second?" We have that game: it's called "Mahvel". Let's face it: at a certain point, this becomes less about what is good or bad game design and becomes entitled gamers thinking they have the right to demand the mechanical equivalent of UMvC3 with Nintendo Characters and Mega Man. There has to be a point where people think to themselves, "Yeah, I love playing with these characters, but maybe this just isn't the game for me."

I LOVE Phoenix Wright. I love Dante. I love X-23 and Jill and Wesker. But, you know what? I'm trash as Marvel, and I'm not in a million years going to say that UMvC4 or whatever is next should slow down and have less complicated button combinations and all this other crap because, regardless of how much I love it and how much I want to play it... it's not the game for me, it's not made with me in mind.

For some of us, I feel we have that relationship with Smash, competitively speaking. It's fun, and we love to play, but competitively? It's just not the game we're looking to play. We want Mahvel, and when we don't get that, we complain that a mistake is being made. It's not a mistake: it's like that on purpose, and that's ok. We don't get to tell Sakurai that he's not focusing his design on the right people because he's focusing his design on exactly the people he wants to focus it on, regardless of whether that's Ken or M2K or not.

Jesus, let the guy work. If you don't like the game when it comes out, go play something else.
Wow, literally the worst post I've read in this entire forum save for SmashChu's posts.

MvC3 isn't the only fighting game in existence, they're much more technical and fast paced fighting games (MvC2, Guilty Gear, and *gasp* SSBM) and nobody wants any Smash game to turn into a ABCDABCDABCDSuper fest. Smash is Smash, and we love it that way because of all the dynamic elements in it (directional influence, 6 options on knockdown, platform maneuvering, stage control/interaction) that you can't find anywhere else.

And stop sucking Sakurai's ****. For better or for worse all 3 smash games had a lot of things in them that weren't intended or designed by Sakurai, but that's a completely natural part of metagame development. We're not making the game, but we have the right to say anything that we do and don't like about it and same for all of his previous works. He doesn't have to abandon his core veteran audience to appeal to newer players, but that's exactly what we're worried he's going to do again.

Problem with doing so today is that online play is a must. People didn't complain about Melee because they were playing with their friends, so unless your friend was Gimpyfish you'd probably not be that far outmatched. If Melee was released today with a total lag-free online play, the newbie would get completely crushed, and before he could play online he'd have to sit down and practice L-Cancelling, Wave Dashing, Dash Dancing etc.

It can be compared to MOBAs today, which are so damn reliant on techniques and the meta game. Not even in the lowest levels of online play in MOBAs can you avoid those things, it sucks out all the fun. I'm sure the same thing would go for those advanced techniques, and it frankly ruins the game experience for those who want to play for fun without being competitive geniuses.

That's why accessibility is so important today, it wasn't back in Melee's time, but times have changed, no arguing with that.

The one thing Smash Bros has over all other fighters is that it's all about fun, we each see fun in a different way of course, that's why the best solution is to hit the middle ground. It's not fun for everyone to sit down and practice stupid techniques, but it's not fun for everyone either to not have any techniques to practice, it's a dilemma which can't be solved.

Go back and read my post again. Once again, accessibility and depth are not mutually exclusive, you don't need a middle ground because you turn them both up or down at the same time.

Your "depth is bad because bad players will badly" argument still doesn't hold, as long as there is any amount of depth in a game a worse player will always lose, and that's the way it's has been for all three smash games and there's no way to change that unless you remove all of the depth from a game. I have been beaten by Gimpyfish before, so what? Bowser is fun, losing makes you better.
 

_R@bid_

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Sure doesn't always work, you'll always find players who start a new account just to bash the noobs. I haven't played a single game with an ELO or level system which isn't plagued by this.
This would happen.... if competitive players weren't such a small fraction of the player base.
 

Jack Kieser

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Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
Wow, literally the worst post I've read in this entire forum save for SmashChu's posts.

MvC3 isn't the only fighting game in existence, they're much more technical and fast paced fighting games (MvC2, Guilty Gear, and *gasp* SSBM) and nobody wants any Smash game to turn into a ABCDABCDABCDSuper fest. Smash is Smash, and we love it that way because of all the dynamic elements in it (directional influence, 6 options on knockdown, platform maneuvering, stage control/interaction) that you can't find anywhere else.

And stop sucking Sakurai's ****. For better or for worse all 3 smash games had a lot of things in them that weren't intended or designed by Sakurai, but that's a completely natural part of metagame development. We're not making the game, but we have the right to say anything that we do and don't like about it and same for all of his previous works. He doesn't have to abandon his core veteran audience to appeal to newer players, but that's exactly what we're worried he's going to do again.
I assumed someone was going to miss the point by focusing on the fact that I mentioned only one game (Marvel), instead of the main point that different game series have different mechanical focuses that are sometimes wildly different from each other to the point that sometimes when players complain, it's not the game's fault or the series' fault or the developer's fault, but rather the player's fault for not just playing something else.

Yes, again, a player may love a lot of the game, but ultimately, it's not being designed (conceptually, as a series) with that player in mind. Melee really messed with a lot of people's heads because it seemed like it was made for them, but in reality that was just a happy coincidence, a complete and total accident. Smash, as a series and in a competitive sense, is not for some players. It's just not. You can enjoy it, sure, you can have fun, you can even conceptually love some of the design choices or influences, but at the end of the day, if your goal is to compete, there are better games for you.

For instance, part of the reason I'm bad at "traditional" fighters is because I'm bad at rote memorization. A combo in SSF4 or Marvel or the majority of traditional fighters is something that you discover in the lab, practice the timing of, and then perform verbatim in a match (assuming you don't drop the combo or make an execution error). Yes, there are exceptions, but B&B combos (especially) in traditional fighters require you to memorize a string of moves and then perform those moves exactly as planned on a hit confirm. I'm bad at that. I'm better at stringing things together on the fly intuitively, at internalizing my character's capabilities and utilizing them in the moment, which is part of why I'm better at Smash then many other fighters; it's more free-form. So, instead of beating my head against a wall in GG or forcing myself to play for much longer in Tekken then I would need to in Smash to reach the same skill level, I just play Smash when I want to compete. When I want to have fun, I'll play anything, but you won't catch me in a Marvel tournament, whereas I might consider entering a Brawl tournament.

And, really, this isn't strange. Some people have better hands for piano than guitar, but we don't say that someone is messed up for choosing to forgo guitar lessons in favor of piano lessons, nor do we say someone should force themselves to learn guitar if they're just not good at it. We ALSO don't try to redesign the guitar every 5 years to accommodate those people who really should just be learning piano. We expect those people, if they really want to learn an instrument, to just accept their skills and move on with their lives; the people who are forced to learn instruments they aren't compatible with are (at least in my experience) the people forced to learn by their parents as kids and are miserable for it.

So, I don't see how this is out of left field. There are people who want this series to be one thing, and the designer is literally saying directly to them "I get that you want these things, but I am not going to give them to you, or at least not the way you want it." And instead of being gracious and mature, they tell him "well, you're wrong. You're making your game improperly. It should be like this." When the easy answer is just to own up to the fact that, competitively, they should be playing something else.

Play SSB4 with your friends and have fun with it. Play it online or against the CPU and knock yourself out. Then, enter a Street Fighter tournament and stop ******** at the ones of us who like competing in a game with fewer combo opportunities, less hitstun (like the amount he seems to be aiming for), less twitch-happy speed, etc.
 

Mr. Mumbles

Smash Ace
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Messages
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I don't understand the concern. Sakurai is reducing the amount of hand holding, or at least every sign we have received so far about this game is suggesting he is. This game will be faster and without items on, there likely won't be much luck involved as tripping is gone, and the stages so far look more competitively viable. Just because he is trying to keep the silent majority in mind, doesn't mean he has forgotten about competitive players.

He wants to appease his fans who are obsessing over the game (who I imagine tend to be more competitive); that much is clear. I would dare say he takes that as a given. What he is saying here is he is going the extra mile to not forget those who are far less vocal. And yes there are people who buy the game who are less vocal. It did sell 10.79 million copies after all. And how many people do you think are really on forums like us?

Yes he does make mistakes that not even the casual players like, like tripping, but he already admitted that mistake by taking it out of the next game. And let us not pretend that Project M and the like are better than Brawl. It does some useful things to brawl, but without his games as a baseline they wouldn't exist, nor would they if the games weren't so fun to begin with.
 

El Duderino

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Messages
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He's basically saying he doesn't want the winner to be decided by being better at only one thing, but more things (especially adapting and such?).
Again, I understand his underlying point, I just find the 50 meter dash to be a horribly inapt comparison. It's such a poor fit that I can't help but question his logic here.
 

Vintage Creep

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Customizable moves?
YOU HAD ONE JOB, SAKURAI.

No really, this screams BROKEN five miles away... Oh God please no...
 

Anomilus

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"When you boil things down to pure competition, it's not always the most engaging experience. For example, think about the 50-meter dash. This is something that really comes down to speed. You see a lot of people progressing in a linear direction, and the person who is fastest in the beginning is quite often going to be the winner. It's predictable--and while it is pure competition, it's not necessarily engaging in the same way as events with unpredictability. As developers, we have to think about all of these circumstances when designing fighting games."

So yeah, like others I have a problem with this statement. As somebody already said, Sakurai seems to brush off the mental aspect of competition. Now I do understand that not everybody can match wits with each other, so indeed there are going to be plenty of predictable outcomes. But even in those situations something unexpected can occur. It's the natural result of direct interactions between players. A 50-meter dash doesn't involve direct interactions between competitive players, so it really isn't a good analogy. Fighting games cannot and should not be explained so simplistically as if it's merely a game of "who's HP falls first". They are not that linear.

Actually, that wasn't really what I wanted to address anyway. I want to address Sakurai's statement on "unpredictability".

He looks at unpredictability so positively, as if just having it is going to create a more engaging experience that is more ideal for a broader audience. But we've all seen what his concept of unpredictability can produce. So I gave it some thought earlier today, and I came up with something:

Two ways of engaging the players through Unpredictability: Promotion and Production

Promotion is what I defined as providing the players with elements that will induce unpredictability. These are basically things that the player can choose to have exist in a match that will alter the course and/or disrupt results. The positives of promotion is that the player feels in control regardless of unexpected outcomes, and the experience feels all the more personal as a result. The negatives of promotion is that provided elements are not always enjoyable, and players may be able to mitigate or even avoid the elements, diminishing the intended effect of engagement through unpredictability.

Production is what I defined as introducing elements that create unpredictability. These are things the player cannot choose whether or not to involve in their matches. They just show up and alter the course of a match and/or disrupt results. The positives of Production is that matches are sure to never be the same each time, so players always have to be on their toes. The negatives is that these elements are forced upon players, so their enjoyment is at risk. Also, because these things are typically governed by the game, the player could feel robbed of control of the experience.

I thought about all of this because, while I truly do believe that unpredictability is a great thing in the context of Smash Bros., the first two games strongly favored unpredictability by promotion while Brawl saw a significant increase in unpredictability by production. Until Brawl, the precedence for randomness was through items and stages, both with set rules and results. Smash 64 had very little produced randomness, and Melee only introduced a bit more produced randomness. Both did so through items and stages; Mostly stages. Then Brawl came along and introduced tripping, a random element unanimously governed by the game. With Brawl also saw a sudden rise in items with produced unpredictability.

I bring all of this up because it highlights a very important point: Unpredictability can be fun, but the human element should be the primary catalyst for unpredictability. That's what made Smash 64 so fun. That's what made Melee even more fun (competitively AND casually). What Brawl did was turn its nose up at the human element. It still had its toggles, but it introduced an awful lot of stipulation. This is something I'm hoping is held back from this next Smash game, moreso than game speed or new ideas.

When the game is allowed to produce randomness, it should be with great caution and respect towards its "victims". Saying that, I recall Sakurai saying he likes a good prank. But a prank that last for years wears thin, and a prank that few enjoy will wear even thinner.
 

Mr.Showtime

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He clearly doesnt mean that.

Yea, the broken translation is hard to actually comprehend what he is trying to say. In my mind, I think that the way moves look, such as Mario's Fireballs, will have a different particle effect (turning into a pill). I can honestly see this happening and think its a cool small addition especially since he isn't able to get every character from the past series into the game.
 

[Corn]

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Yea, the broken translation is hard to actually comprehend what he is trying to say. In my mind, I think that the way moves look, such as Mario's Fireballs, will have a different particle effect (turning into a pill). I can honestly see this happening and think its a cool small addition especially since he isn't able to get every character from the past series into the game.

Noone would have any issue with customization on cosmetic features.

But ya, this post was lost somewhere in translation. Dis overreaction is quite funny though.
 

Holder of the Heel

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When you over analyze the specifics of an analogy, then you're kind of defeating the purpose of an analogy. I mean, you guys understand how analogies work right? Someone takes a single concept of one thing and then compares it to something else possessing the same, single concept. Then you're done. If you were to erroneously and inanely pick at people in real life using analogies, they'll probably get annoyed real quick. :laugh:
 

El Duderino

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Joined
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Messages
570
When you over analyze the specifics of an analogy, then you're kind of defeating the purpose of an analogy. I mean, you guys understand how analogies work right? Someone takes a single concept of one thing and then compares it to something else possessing the same, single concept.
That's exactly where the analogy falls apart, that single concept is not at all consistent. The two forms of competition differ and have unique entertainment values.

It's an apples to oranges comparison.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
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Well, that interview pretty much confirms I'll be staying away from this game and Nintendo. The size of the echo chamber this man (and company) resides within is astonishing. How much insight does one need to realize competitive congeniality in design =/= high barrier of entry? The competitive base creates the barrier of entry - and no design philosophy will thwart this reality. The only means of eroding barriers of entry is to abolish people from playing any game with a competitive mindset in tow, by and large. Impossible. Games are competitive on a large scale not due strictly to their mechanics but by means of an enthusiast base that merely desires to have competitions held in a particular game's honor at that scale - even "casual" players are being competitive when playing because that is intrinsic to a fighting game's design. In light of this, what truly matters is how the gameplay feels and mechanics play a large part in that. Melee feels incredible to many. Brawl feels terrible to more. Smash's aesthetics and concept are way too broad to be concerned about competitive enthusiasts scarring people off. What a dumb person.
 
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