Gamerzlivelounge Tournament - Sterling Heights, MI- 7/05/08 - SSBB

[Metà]

XD this is one of the worst tournaments I've ever heard of. I thought my last tournament had a few problems, but holy crap, laggy TV's, 50% pot cut, and a childish tournament host.

Is this even real or am I hallucinating from lack of sleep? lol

 

[AlphaZealot]

Guys,

Khan was within his rights as a TO to do what he did, espcially since he posted it within the rules. It could have been far worse, I've heard of people being immediately banned despite no forwarning for things similar to this. That said, the decision to ban mortar slilding is a bad one, for starters, you don't even know if it was intended or not. Everyone thought wavedashing was unintentional, turns out we were all wrong and Sak admitted that they knew about it. The problem with banning mortar sliding is that you have a very shaky reason as to why. Your reasoning appear to be "you shouldn't be allowed to use one move to win", well, if that is the logic, then you should ban any move that is being abused by any player in any given match, and I'd be willing to bet there are assloads of moves that deserve a ban under this pretense.

Thats the main problem here, that your ignoring the slippery slope effect, that the logic you applied to banning mortar sliding can be used with other things, and at the next tournament, someone who doesn't know how to get passed a Samus who missile cancels can then complain and have missile canceling banned, and under what happened at this tournament, it is now your OBLIGATION to ban the technique because it is under all the same logic as the mortar slide (could have been unintentional, could be just one move being used to win).

 

[SleepyK]

Guys,

Khan was within his rights as a TO to do what he did, espcially since he posted it within the rules. It could have been far worse, I've heard of people being immediately banned despite no forwarning for things similar to this. That said, the decision to ban mortar slilding is a bad one, for starters, you don't even know if it was intended or not. Everyone thought wavedashing was unintentional, turns out we were all wrong and Sak admitted that they knew about it. The problem with banning mortar sliding is that you have a very shaky reason as to why. Your reasoning appear to be "you shouldn't be allowed to use one move to win", well, if that is the logic, then you should ban any move that is being abused by any player in any given match, and I'd be willing to bet there are assloads of moves that deserve a ban under this pretense.

Thats the main problem here, that your ignoring the slippery slope effect, that the logic you applied to banning mortar sliding can be used with other things, and at the next tournament, someone who doesn't know how to get passed a Samus who missile cancels can then complain and have missile canceling banned, and under what happened at this tournament, it is now your OBLIGATION to ban the technique because it is under all the same logic as the mortar slide (could have been unintentional, could be just one move being used to win).

I <3 Alphazealot.

 

[Sliq]

Guys,

Khan was within his rights as a TO to do what he did, espcially since he posted it within the rules. It could have been far worse, I've heard of people being immediately banned despite no forwarning for things similar to this. That said, the decision to ban mortar slilding is a bad one, for starters, you don't even know if it was intended or not. Everyone thought wavedashing was unintentional, turns out we were all wrong and Sak admitted that they knew about it. The problem with banning mortar sliding is that you have a very shaky reason as to why. Your reasoning appear to be "you shouldn't be allowed to use one move to win", well, if that is the logic, then you should ban any move that is being abused by any player in any given match, and I'd be willing to bet there are assloads of moves that deserve a ban under this pretense.

Thats the main problem here, that your ignoring the slippery slope effect, that the logic you applied to banning mortar sliding can be used with other things, and at the next tournament, someone who doesn't know how to get passed a Samus who missile cancels can then complain and have missile canceling banned, and under what happened at this tournament, it is now your OBLIGATION to ban the technique because it is under all the same logic as the mortar slide (could have been unintentional, could be just one move being used to win).

Hey, this is the internet, we don't need a completely reasonable and logical explanation!


MOAR FLAMING NAO!!!!!!!

 

[SleepyK]

Hey, this is the internet, we don't need a completely reasonable and logical explanation!


MOAR FLAMING NAO!!!!!!!

I also <3 Sliq.

 

[RedPeppers]

Hey guys lets just ban wavedashing in Melee tourneys! It's a glitch!

 

[lain]

what's wavedashing?

squirtle's up+b?

 

[RDK]

what's wavedashing?

squirtle's up+b?

Squirtle's Up+B is his offensive move, remember?

 

[petre]

haha, i heard about some random smash tournament from a friend i work with that was actually near my house, and i got all excited. so i come here to see if theres anything about it on here, and there was! then i read the thread, and i dont know if i want to go anymore.

 

[Metà]

Squirtle's Up+B is his offensive move, remember?

You have to use it in the air though.

LOL

 

[KhanSphere]

AlphaZealot, thanks for the logical response. My reason is not using one move just to win, as I understand that the dash cancel is not a be-all-end-all technique. My reasoning is that the game has enough layers of complication and enough ways to show skill and timing without adding techniques that abuse mistakes, whether ignored or unseen by the devs, in the programming. While certain things like samus missle cancelling cannot possibly be moderated and controlled(The player might just have been doing a jumping missle?), dash cancelling can be spotted fairly easily and subdued, if not completely restricted.

I discussed the ban on a chat program with Vay, and I'll discuss this with Kyle and double think the mortar-sliding decision. This is no guarantee that it won't still be banned, but we'll look at it more closely. The main issue I have with it is the variable amount of usefulness each character gains from it.

Either way, I apologize for pissing off Panda, but not for banning the move. I should have either stopped the match or told him after to not do it in following matches. I figured that just asking him to stop mid-match would be the least disruptive way to do it. If future incidents arise I'll make sure we don't change the flow during a match, one way or another.

 

[RDK]

AlphaZealot, thanks for the logical response. My reason is not using one move just to win, as I understand that the dash cancel is not a be-all-end-all technique. My reasoning is that the game has enough layers of complication and enough ways to show skill and timing without adding techniques that abuse mistakes, whether ignored or unseen by the devs, in the programming.

What the hell? So you openly admit to banning things that are possibly seen and ignored by the devs?

Which is beside the point. The whole point of the game is to have layers of complication in order to abuse stupid mistakes by the opponent. The Snakedash is, by far, not the most over-used and cheap move in the game, if you want to even call it cheap. If we go by that mindset, then MK as a character is cheap, because he's able to abuse slower characters with ease while having almost no laggy attacks whatsoever.

Your reasons for banning things are flimsy at best.

 

[Zankoku]

The main issue I have with it is the variable amount of usefulness each character gains from it.

This is a poor reason to take issue with it.

In Melee, how much did Bowser benefit from wavedashing compared to Luigi? How much did Sheik stand to gain from her ridiculously high shorthop compared to Falco?

Hell, just look at basic moves. Exactly how useful is Ganondorf's neutral B compared to Meta Knight's? How about his uptilt compared to everyone else's?

If you have an issue with variable amount of usefulness derived from something, ban every character except one, because that's the only way it'll be fair, and even then controller slot will give an unfair advantage to one of the players.

 

[KhanSphere]

"What the hell? So you openly admit to banning things that are possibly seen and ignored by the devs?"

No, I'm hiding it O_o

Yeah. Games are not always perfect and sometimes the difficulty of fixing a mistake is so great that time(due to release dates) or stability(will fixing it create worse issues that need to be fixed?) prevents the mistakes from getting fixed. This may be true, or dash cancelling may be an oversight that was never noticed in any bug checking. I certainly don't think it was purposefully programmed into the game because it was a wanted addition. At the very least it's in there because it was too much work to take it out, at worst it was a completely accidental mistake. I'm wondering if the patching system for games on the wii is as extensive as the Xbox's. If the developers had the chance and it was easy and not costly to fix, do you think they'd make a patch to get rid of dash cancelling?

My logic is that if I can honestly say that it was a mistake they'd like to have fixed, then it is an unnecessary and unintended addition to the game, and perhaps it's possible to reasonably enjoy and compete in the game without it. After all, there is a huge list of levels that people don't play in tournaments because they have an element of randomness. Taking them out because you don't believe that they are conducive to a competitive environment is your excuse for doing so(not yours specifically, but generally). In this tournament, we're trying to do the same thing.

BTW, I'm not trying to change the smash world as a whole or anything, and I'm not insisting that I'm "right" or something. Not everything needs to be taken as if I'm attacking the standard, established way that most tournaments are played. This tournament is merely different, and I'm explaining my reasoning as to why. You can extrapolate my logic to certain moves, such as the differences between the usefulness of each characters recovery or something, but comparing my ideas to something illogical like banning characters doesn't really prove that my ideas are illogical. After all, I'm not banning any characters or saying any should be banned.

 

[Vayseth]

So, no matter what it is, you'll ban it if it wasn't "intentionally put in by the developers"? So you'll ban glide tossing then right? Without it, it makes ROB, Diddy, ZZS, etc very hard to play as, seeing as the characters need those things to place well.

Without any sort of techs or any sort of methods of rebalancing the game, you are condemning the game to being won by G+W, Snake, and Metaknight. These things make the game better by allowing lower tiers to compete against the higher tiers. Metaknight and G+W are classic examples of REALLY over powered characters that do not need anything else to win, especially since they have SO MANY options and are really hard to punish. Are you trying to tell me that the developers designed G+W to be able to kill with all of his smash attacks on most of the cast at 80% while stronger/heavier characters like bowser can barely kill at 100%? Are you also telling us that metaknight's tornado, along with all of his moves having absolutely ZERO lag, is exactly how the developers intended? No, it's not, because it puts those two characters at a ridiculous advantage over the rest of the cast. The Brawl Development Team set out to make the game so that anyone could pick up any character and be able to play the game. However, who's to say that when they "balanced" the game, they were using every stage, and all items? If you take away the majority of the stages and take off all of the items, you are left with two REALLY broken characters while the rest of the cast lacks killing moves, recoveries, ways to rack up damage, or all three. So, if you really want to play as the developers intended, you might as well put every stage on random and turn on all items on medium (the default setting, I believe). Otherwise, you're going to end up with really annoying tournaments where people play only a few characters. You might say something along the lines of "but we have a huge variety of characters right now!" Yeah, that's only because you've only had a couple tournaments. After all the n00bs figure out that G+W and Metaknight are not only really easy to pick up, but they are also really cheap, you'll see it. The same thing happened at the UMB biweeklies, Rofa's Biweeklies, my biweeklies and I'm sure yours will come around eventually. If you limit the players to only what you "feel" is right, especially since you give no concrete reasons as to why you're banning half of what you are, they will be forced to play in very similar playstyles, and your tournaments will go stale. If you want that, whatever, but you're killing the competitive scene for your tournament by being stubborn about things that should not even matter.

This just in:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g3je-k53-DU

You want to ban footstooling now since it leads to 50%+ combos with sheik?

 

[KhanSphere]

Vay, you know better.

"especially since you give no concrete reasons as to why you're banning half of what you are"

I've banned one thing.

"After all the n00bs figure out that G+W and Metaknight are not only really easy to pick up, but they are also really cheap, you'll see it. The same thing happened at the UMB biweeklies, Rofa's Biweeklies, my biweeklies and I'm sure yours will come around eventually."

It happened at your tournaments, in your words. Banning DAC is, therefor, not the reason people will all switch to metaknight or game and watch. In your words also, they'll switch because they're easy to pick up and cheap. Noobs have a habit of doing that. Weird thing is, I think I've only seen a single metaknight match in my tournaments so far. That really surprised me to be honest, I had my brother specifically pick him up because I knew I'd have trouble using Ike against him and I haven't gotten a chance to test that matchup at all yet.

Anyway, footstooling doesn't look much like a combo that can't be escaped, and it certainly doesn't look like anything I could possibly comprehend banning. Don't think I'd ever come up with a reason to ban it. Again, trying to make me look ridiculous by claiming that I'm going to ban everything under the sun when ONE THING HAS BEEN BANNED won't work. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by blatantly lying, but it's not going to work.

I don't think items really balance out the cast much, do you?

Oh, and Mark Buckner(Brawlbro) plays a nice Diddy that I had a crapload of trouble with(haven't played him in the actual tournament, just for fun), and Carl Cayabyab(Brutos) plays a great ROB. He eliminated me from the losers bracket in the second tournament.

You might remember that in your early attempts at tournament hosting a ton of people switched to falco and fox in melee. If I remember right all the usual winners also got very good at fighting foxes and falcos. I wouldn't mind if a bunch of people try metaknight and G&W at our tournaments, because I really, REALLY need practice against G&W, and I'd love some practice against new MKs.

EDIT:I'm getting sick of posting long responses. I'd much rather just go play brawl than talk about it. Again, AIM and email are always open for people who actually want to take the time to discuss things rather than flame. Otherwise, I'm going to go with what me and kyle decided in the first thread, and only respond to actual questions about the tournament, and not about DAC specifically. I already said I'd revisit that, why do you think the new thread isn't open? Have some fun, play some brawl, and don't waste your time *****ing.

 

[lain]

i didn't read anything anyone said cause this thread is full of suck and fail.

but i just want you and your little tournament that i am accepting moneymatches in melee OR brawl from anyone. : )

oh, i play fox and falco in melee. and marth. and falcon. and mewtwo.

getraped

 

[Vayseth]

Brawlbro already admitted to using that stuff in this thread. Both the glide throwing and the DAC. No, ROB and Diddy don't NEED glide tossing, but it makes them a lot better. But, you're not banning it so whatever.

You've banned a lot. Chaingrabbing, motarsliding, counterpicking, items, stages, etc. You also don't seem to have a problem with the DAC, just Snake's DAC, which has unusual properties to it. I have no problem with you banning it only for Snake, because Snake is a big ***. Ban his forward tilt combo too plz. 21% in two hits WTF?!

Banning DAC doesn't make n00bs automatically go play broke tier. Everyone automatically plays broke tier. It's after that when people can start using things in the game to make other characters better. That's the point. Then again, if I did a DAC with anyone other than Snake, I doubt you'd notice, and I'd say it was dashing up smash, and you couldn't prove me wrong anyway.

The footstool combo with sheik is super dumb XD I guess you can't tech after a footstool, meaning free 50%+ if as long as you input it right, which is what you kept saying you were against, especially with chain throws.

I believe if you take a look at every character's final smashes, every character's movelist, and all of the tiems and their properties, you will see that characters who don't have really good kill moves (Marth, Link, Mario, Luigi, Sheik, etc) all have one hit kill moves as final smashes. G+W and Metaknight's FSes are pretty bad, hard to hit, and don't necessarily guarantee a stock. If you look at it that way, it actually makes sense that the game can be rebalanced completely by allowing just final smashes in, let alone all the stages and all the items. If you put on every stage and every item, the characters really don't matter since it all boils down to which items spawn where, who gets them, and if people can avoid stage hazards. Yes, in effect, it does balance the cast super well.

You still haven't given a good reason for banning it, you're kind of running around the subject. But, since I realized that anyone can just run and hit up on the c-stick and have similar results, there's no point to banning it because, other than Snake's DAC, they're almost impossible to tell apart. So, I'mma go with it doesn't matter if you ban it or not, because people are going to use it anyway, and you really can't prove if they are or are not. Same with glide tossing, auto-canceling, and every other advanced tech that this game has spawned. So, I guess Snake's motarslide and chain throwing are the only things you can actually see and ban. It's fine with me, since it's your tournament, I thought I'd just give you the information that you neglected to research, proving that what you banned isn't a gamebreaking technique.

 

[Metà]

Khan, just unban the technique. All the serious competitive players attending your tournaments will oppose you on the ban (DAC), and if it's not a game-breaking technique, you have little to gain from banning it. You will however lose respect from most players, and possibly lose attendants. Several people have given you detailed reasons for not banning it, and you really haven't provided any legitimate reasons yourself, other than stupid assumptions like "they shouldn't rely on one tactic to win" or "it wasn't intended". The latter of which is completely ******** and bears no importance to whether or not it should be banned.

Seriously, does it matter how the technique (DAC) got there? You should judge it based on the positive and negative attributes associated with it, and treat it like any other part of the game. Snake's up-tilt and f-tilt are far more broken than DAC, yet you allow them because they're obviously intended. So, why ban something that isn't broken?

 

[thaxceptional1]

i wanna meet khan, he sounds like me

 

[MajinSweet]

We shouldn't pretend like we know what was intended by the developers.

 

[Zankoku]

Anyway, footstooling doesn't look much like a combo that can't be escaped, and it certainly doesn't look like anything I could possibly comprehend banning.

Since you haven't addressed my comment about your "issue," I'm not going to expand on the argument now that you've said even more incorrect bull****. However, the footstool combo is very much inescapable, provided the Sheik player has sufficient timing to go from ftilt into footstool. It's a guaranteed combo that deals between 49% and 66% damage to a decent number of characters.

 

[SenorPresidente]

Well sakurai himself has said that he doesn't like competition so if we are gonna go by what the developers intended then Khan should just stop hosting tourneys period.

 

[Sliq]

Once again, it isn't what you've banned, it's the fact that you did ban something for an arbitrary reason. Furthermore, the fact you banned something completely unbroken leads me to believe that you'll have no problem banning **** like Bowser's infinite jump, or hell, his suicide grab, 2 completely unbroken things that make Bowser almost tournament viable.

You'd think mass community backlash would be enough for him to reverse his decision (stupid, ******** decision) but apparently not.

I will be openly boycotting all future tournaments, and I urge others to join me.

 

[Zankoku]

Hey Sliq, I thought you got back from New York.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

oh ejsus fu cking christ this is still going

YOU CANT BAN **** MID TOURNEY OR YOUR A SCRUB AND SHOULDENT HOLD TOURNEYS

IN FACT YOU CANT BAN **** PERIOD IN SMASH CEPT LEVELS AND ICE CLIMBERS

ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP MY GOD.
KHAN YOUR WRONG PERIOD I TOLD YOU THAT AT THE TOURNEY

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Once again, it isn't what you've banned, it's the fact that you did ban something for an arbitrary reason. Furthermore, the fact you banned something completely unbroken leads me to believe that you'll have no problem banning **** like Bowser's infinite jump, or hell, his suicide grab, 2 completely unbroken things that make Bowser almost tournament viable.

You'd think mass community backlash would be enough for him to reverse his decision (stupid, ******** decision) but apparently not.

I will be openly boycotting all future tournaments, and I urge others to join me.

id boycott if it wasnt 20 mins from my house LOL and he didnt say **** about GW so i dont really care.

but the fact are still the facts

 

[Metà]

id boycott if it wasnt 20 mins from my house LOL and he didnt say **** about GW so i dont really care.

but the fact are still the facts

Didn't he also take a lot of your 1st place money? I mean, f*ck, how could the venue be that expensive? Khan just sounds like a terrible host, period.

I know I don't really belong posting here, since I don't live anywhere near Michigan and will probably never play in a tournament there, but I'm just as much a part of the global Smash community. Maybe if enough people from all over start bashing him and telling him he's wrong, he'll actually change something. Maybe...

 

[SleepyK]

If that's the case, then any autocancelling moves should be banned as well (ie ganon's downair, sonic's spring dair cancel, yoshi's down b, Metaknight's glide attack, etc.) since those were obviously overlooked and seem unnatural.

 

[Brutos]

Wow...this has gotten attention of people who don't even live in Michigan.

 

[smasher1001]

Just figured I'd throw my 2 cents in.

First, to everyone doing the flaming, just chill. It doesn't help anyone, and at most your just pissing kahn off(This doesn't help your case,if anything he may just keep the ban out of spite as a result).

I personally also believe snakedashing should be legal, but keep in mind it's HIS tournament, and as such he makes the rules. Now the best we can do is to provide a reasonable case, and see if it convinces him. I would post my case on snakedashing, but a few others have already posted anything relavent to that, in an intelligent manner. I do however have an idea that could help the current situation.

That being said, here is my suggestion for your future tournaments. Provide a list in your tournament topics listing EVERYTHING that you have banned. Secondly, if you see someone performing a tech that was banned, then deal with them accordingly since they have no excuse if you post what is banned. However, if they use a tech that was not listed but you deem it banworthy, wait until their match is over and ask them what it is called. Allow them to continue using it for the rest of that tournament(Otherwise it's unfair to them to ban it after they paid an entry fee,since they paid assuming their tech was allowed). But when you post a new tournament up on the boards add the tech to your list.

Lastly, your tournament was fun to join and I look forward to the next one.

EDIT: Seems a portion of my post got cut off earlier, so I added what got cut. Kinda annoying since I might have missed something though:\

 

[Sinz]

I'd like to praise the TO on this for just a second. One thing, he was able to take control of the situation, and did what he felt what was necessary. However, I believe that banning a technique is kinda ridiculous. Yes, you should have let him use it for the rest of the tournament, and then announced the banning of that tech. Yes, you shouldn't have interrupted the match.

I host tournaments in New Mexico so I get alot of beef from players down here. But, at least, I have the decency to not ban something halfway through a game. Especially if it is punishable. The DAC is so punishable it isn't even funny. I have played against dozens of Snakes, and many other characters that have a DAC, and punished them every time for their DAC. It is punishable, there is no reason to ban it if it can be punished.

 

[thaxceptional1]

khan ill murder u *****

 

[Dark Sonic]

I believe if you take a look at every character's final smashes, every character's movelist, and all of the tiems and their properties, you will see that characters who don't have really good kill moves (Marth Link, Mario, Luigi, Sheik, etc) all have one hit kill moves as final smashes.

Wait whatt? Almost all of Marth's moves are kill moves. F-smash, D-smash, Up-smash, Up tilt, Up B, Neutral B, Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair, Bair, and even Dancing blade (up on the last hit on lighter characters) are all frequently used to kill.

@TO-Since when was Snake Dashing even good. Sure, it's a little hard to punish at first (until you learn what your character can actually do), but it really doesn't do...anything. So you move across the stage really fast? It doesn't do that much damage when it hits, it's really easy to see coming, and you still have to deal with the up smash lag. It also goes a predifined distance, so really just going right next to where he ends isn't hard (if he's approaching with it, which is kinda dumb). If he's running away with it...just chase him, or camp him. He's really not that good at dealing with projectiles, and depends mostly on stage control (which he is willingly giving up if he runs away via snakedash).

It's really...not even that good, especially compared to some of the more broken stuff in this game (up B->glide attack with Metaknight.)

 

[4Serial]

This is stupid

He's ignoring everything like a little *****

 

[lain]

Actually sonic way, that is false.

They are kill moves, but only at percents around 120%. Not much of a kill move I'd say. Nair, his strongest killing move, kills MK from the middle of FD at around 122%. : /

Tippers are a different story, but they're **** hard to hit with since the tipper hitbox is smaller.

Vayseth is kinda like the M2K of brawl since he knows so much ridiculous **** with like EVERYONE and knows a **** ton more aboutb the game then everyone else.

And this thread is boring, yadda yadda yadda, proceed.

 

[AlphaZealot]

We shouldn't pretend like we know what was intended by the developers.

Actually, would you have thought they knew about wavedashing? Because most casual players thought it was a glitch, turns out it wasn't. Knowing what the developer did and did not intend is near impossible, so the assumption should always be that everything was intentional, even things that look like glitches, because even those could have been left in the game intentionally.

That said, I think everyone is coming down a bit to hard on the TO. If you don't like his policies, you don't have to go, tournaments operate in a free market so to speak after all. If your local gamestop held a tournament with items, you wouldn't ***** about items being on, you would simply expect it and know that its just they way Gamestop does things and that you'll have to deal.

I'll give this thread maybe another day then its getting closed (in all likelyhood at least). It seems clear the TO has made his decision, I would suggest taking the issue up in PM's or something.

 

[Vayseth]

Wait whatt? Almost all of Marth's moves are kill moves. F-smash, D-smash, Up-smash, Up tilt, Up B, Neutral B, Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair, Bair, and even Dancing blade (up on the last hit on lighter characters) are all frequently used to kill.

Most of those moves don't kill (non-tipper) until 140%. I don't call that a killing move. His only killing move is really tippered f-smash which kills at 70%. THAT's a kill move.

 

[Doctor X]

Vayseth is kinda like the M2K of brawl since he knows so much ridiculous **** with like EVERYONE and knows a **** ton more aboutb the game then everyone else.

Lulz. That is all.

 

[lain]

XD

maybe not THAT much as i exaggerated, but yeah he generally knows more then the average or great players.