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Frame Advantage On Block

Discussion in 'Sheik' started by KirbyKaze, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    We could all use the actual formula,

    floor[(damage + 4.45) / 2.235]

    Or we could just defer to the chart below

    Frame Advantage After Hitting a Shield

    DMG (in percent) - ADV (in frames)

    01% - 02
    02% - 02
    03% - 03
    04% - 03
    05% - 04
    06% - 04
    07% - 05
    08% - 05
    09% - 06
    10% - 06
    11% - 06
    12% - 07
    13% - 07
    14% - 08
    15% - 08
    16% - 09
    17% - 09
    18% - 10
    19% - 10
    20% - 10
    21% - 11
    22% - 11
    23% - 12
    24% - 12
    25% - 13
    26% - 13
    27% - 14
    28% - 14
    29% - 14
    30% - 15
    31% - 15
    32% - 16
    33% - 16
    34% - 17
    35% - 17
    36% - 18



    How to use:

    With ground moves:

    Fox u-tilt = 12% at full power
    Hits on frame 5-11
    Finishes frame 23 with IASA (24 without)

    Take the hit frame you're hitting on (5) and add the corresponding frame advantage (7). Then subtract the move's duration from that number (23).

    ([hit frame] + [percent-based frame advantage]) - [Move duration] = Net Frame Advantage

    For Fox's u-tilt at full power, this would look like:

    (05 + 07) - 23 = -11

    He is therefore at -11 for u-tilting a shield.


    With aerial moves:

    First and foremost, aerials are weird because you don't know when you're hitting with them in the air. So completely precise calculations, while possible, aren't usually gonna match exactly what's happening in a match because we don't see in frames (unless you're Sveet or Strong Bad).

    Instead, you kind of get a general idea of safety by comparing the l-cancel time to the amount of shield stun you glean.

    I'll use Sheik's fair as an example because I'm familiar with it.

    F-Air

    Total: 33
    Hit: 5-7
    Auto cancel: <4 11>
    Landlag: 16
    L canceled: 8

    Let's assume full power. 13%. That means 7 frames of shield stun. So basically, if you hit the fair at ground level (lowest point of their shield) and L-cancel immediately after, you are at -1. The higher you do the attack on their shield, the less advantage you gain.

    Autocancel messes with this, though, because you can also theoretically land on the frame your move autocancels (which means you'd be doing the move earlier, and reducing recovery time, potentially making it produce more frame advantage than low aerial [or comparable]).

    So if Sheik hits on frame 7 of her fair, and lands on frame 11, from 7 to 11 she takes 4 frames to get to the ground, and another 4 for standard landing lag. So, 8 frames of lag total. Her fair profits 7 stun (before calculations are finished). So, once again, she's at -1.
     
    Jmook11, Thor, Avro-Arrow and 4 others like this.
  2. darkatma

    darkatma
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    Hrm..
    WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!

    Is this the frame advantage you have after dishing out that amount of damage?
    No entiendo =[
     
  3. 3chairz

    3chairz
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    I work way better with numbers than just a feeling of whether some things work or not, so this is amazingly useful. Thanks KK!! I will wait eagerly for the aerial moves section.
     
  4. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    Aerials are complicated 'cuz you can't really tell which frame you're attacking on (during your air time).

    Generally "low" aerials are safer, but higher aerials sometimes become safer 'cuz of autocancel windows (I'm thinking of Ganon's Bair on this one).

    I'll write it out eventually though.
     
  5. Strong Bad

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    as a note, hits on shield do not add to stale moves, but shieldstun formula uses staled damage of the move.
     
  6. 3chairz

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    Yeah, I was thinking about this. I guess you can just give a range when it comes to aerials, like do a frame advantage analysis for when sheik fairs the top of someone's shield and then do a frame advantage analysis for when sheik fairs a shield at the last possible moment. But then, I guess people would have to know how many frames it takes sheik to land, and that depends on fastfall : \

    btw, this frame advantage guide is for regular shield right? I heard that light shield has longer shield stun. Is there a quick formula for it like 'light shield stun = 1.5 * regular shield stun'?

    Hmm, that's pretty interesting. I doubt I have the brain power to keep track of stale moves during a game, but I'll try to keep that in mind.
     
  7. ChivalRuse

    ChivalRuse
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    This thread is most useful. Why is it only in the Sheik forums?
     
  8. KirbyKaze

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    Because Melee Discussion can't have nice things.
     
  9. ChivalRuse

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    Or useful things, apparently.
     
  10. Spife

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    this thread makes numbers fun!
     
  11. :Tally Hoes

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    This needs to be bumped, also would you think having a higher port would help by the case of you pressuring into a grab by giving you another single frame advandage vs a grab? Or do you think it doesn't matter much. I'm just a little ocd about small details in helping and normally go too far for little things

    But just making sure there's no difference in air stun vs ground stun you broke into two parts which would otherwise seem unneeded.

    :phone:
     
  12. rhan

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    I've stumbled upon gold apparently.
     
  13. KirbyKaze

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    It's a thread by me that's meant to be informative and useful.

    Of course it's gold.
     
    KP17 likes this.
  14. :Tally Hoes

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    A natural resoure we gladly take from 3rd world countries at cheap prices?

    :phone:
     
    Kadano likes this.
  15. ShroudedOne

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    I dunno it it'll top your guide on how to DI and not get ***** by Fox, but it's a good start. Not all of them can be hits. :)
     
  16. JOS.fm

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    nvm . is it different for lightshielding?
     
  17. :Tally Hoes

    :Tally Hoes
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    It should be but I think it's only a little more stun if they light sheild

    :phone:
     
  18. Mokumo

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    Does fire/electricity have any effect on shield stun? I thought I remember that they add more stun when they actually hit, so that might have an effect on shields too.

    jw

    :phone:
     
  19. ShroudedOne

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    No, they don't. I believe electricity adds 50% more stun when it connects with an actual character, but I don't think fire has that kind of effect (if it does, Strong Bad, say so).

    But these properties (fire/electricity) have no effect on shield stun.
     
  20. KirbyKaze

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    This one is not meant to be mass-appealing. I actually made it more for me than anything else, but if others want to use it then sure w/e.
     
  21. soap

    soap
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    I've been using autocancel fairs on the top/middle of people's shields to great success

    I'm not sure if there is a frame advantage, but the spacing and lack of lag on your part make it easy to follow up pressure


    So let me try and work out the utilt on back of a shield real quick..
    crap don't know how much damage the second hit does...
     
  22. KirbyKaze

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    if you hit the first hit, it does 3

    if not it does 4
     
  23. Strong Bad

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    you mean 3.6
    after my correction, this is correct.
     
  24. metaivan

    metaivan
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    What is IASA ?
     
  25. Kaffei

    Kaffei
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    Interruptible As Soon As

    It's the frame when you can start to do something else. A good example is Marth's D-tilt. The entire move lasts for 49 frames, but its IASA frames begin at frame 20. Go try it out.

    @KirbyKaze: Please start on aerials t.t
     
  26. soap

    soap
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    I feel like some sorta action replay would be needed to figure this sort of frame stuff on aerials. There is just so much variations that can occur.
     
  27. Kaffei

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    Oh I see
    Didn't know that lol X_X
     
  28. gm jack

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    I wouldn't expect the rules to be any different. It's just that much harder to count how much end lag you have depending on how quickly you reach the ground after hitting, if it is L or auto cancelled etc.
     
  29. KirbyKaze

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    K, finally getting around to this.

    First and foremost, aerials are weird because you don't know when you're hitting with them in the air. So completely precise calculations, while possible, aren't usually gonna match exactly what's happening in a match because we don't see in frames (unless you're Sveet or Strong Bad).

    Instead, you kind of get a general idea of safety by comparing the l-cancel time to the amount of shield stun you glean.

    I'll use Sheik's fair as an example because I'm familiar with it.

    F-Air

    Total: 33
    Hit: 5-7
    Auto cancel: <4 11>
    Landlag: 16
    L canceled: 8

    Let's assume full power. 13%. That means 7 frames of shield stun. So basically, if you hit the fair at ground level (lowest point of their shield) and L-cancel immediately after, you are at -1. The higher you do the attack on their shield, the less advantage you gain.

    Autocancel messes with this, though, because you can also theoretically land on the frame your move autocancels (which means you'd be doing the move earlier, and reducing recovery time, potentially making it produce more frame advantage than low aerial [or comparable]).

    So if Sheik hits on frame 7 of her fair, and lands on frame 11, from 7 to 11 she takes 4 frames to get to the ground, and another 4 for standard landing lag. So, 8 frames of lag total. Her fair profits 7 stun (before calculations are finished). So, once again, she's at -1.
     
  30. soap

    soap
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    I find the autocancelling to be really useful against people that sidestep your fair.

    you have none of that ground lag to worry about and can just downsmash or something.

    Sometimes I'll just hang for a second and fair them anyway tho.
     
  31. KirbyKaze

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    Not fast falling when you jump can be a really brutal counter to sidestep and can be good against people that try to prey on a predictable attack timing to get in (sup Foxes). Fast falling your aerials & jumps is generally better but a bunch of my hits come from just being like "k, I see you trying to out-wait me and come in a second later... I'll just float a second longer then".
     
  32. ZoSo

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    Good thread, David. It's always bothered me how horribly unsafe most ground moves are in this game.
     
  33. soap

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    Started Crunching numbers and I couldn't stop. Some estimation on the frame ground moves hit was used looking at the hitboxes in this thread.
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=299984

    I still have some Aerial stuff I'm trying to figure out if u wana help

    ([hit frame] + [percent-based frame advantage]) - [Move duration] = Net Frame Advantage


    GROUND MOVES
    *Using IASA frames as move duration

    jab (3%)

    2 + 3 - 16 = -11


    dtilt (7%)

    7 + 5 - 28 = -16


    ftilt (6%)

    8 + 4 - 27 = -15




    Utilt (8%, 3%)

    (close)
    5 + 5 - 18(second hit) = -8

    19 + 3 - 26 = -4



    Second hit tipped

    22 + 3 - 26 = -1


    Reverse utilt

    5 + 5 - 23 = -13

    24 + 3 - 26 = +1



    dash attack thru shield

    6 + 6 - 36 = -24


    fsmash to back of shield (4%, 12%)

    12 + 3 - 26 = -11

    27 + 7 - 46 = -12


    Upsmash (max range)

    16 + 7 - 40 = -17


    dsmash (assuming last hit is 5%)

    23 + 4 - 46 = -19

    waveshield - 3 + 10 = 13 + 7 for grab = 20. Why you can sometimes escape grab.


    Missed grab vs. Sidestep

    Grab 7 - 30 = -23

    SS(early) 2 - 22 = -20 ; + 3
    SS(late) 15 - 22 = -7; +16

    Not all sidestep punishes the same



    AERIALS


    Nair(late, 14%)

    8 - 8 = 0

    Nair out of shield (sh autocancel)
    Out in 6 frames off ground
    SH FF air time: 27

    8 - (27 + 4 ) = -23

    Nair (full hop falling autocancel)
    how much damage does this do and how much airtime left? hmm

    Fair(late)

    7 - 8 = -1

    Fair(autocancel)

    7 - 8 = -1

    Fair (retreating rising sh)

    7 - (27+4) = -24


    Bair(tipped late 14%)

    8 - 8 = 0

    Bair (rising sh autocancel)

    8 - 31 = -23




    Uair (late 12%)

    7 - 12 = -5

    Dair (strong late, 11%)

    6 - 10 = -4
     
  34. soap

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    I thought +1 on reverse utilt is pretty cool, although u sacrifice a small window of vulnerability during the first half of the second hit, plus the work it takes to actually get into that position.

    Still, I don't think there is another ground move in the game that gives you an actual frame advantage (besides shine)

    I was thinking of maybe just running thru shields and utilting as I dash cancel slide past. Crossover dairs and weak bairs could work too.
     
  35. soap

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    As I try to think of strategies.. Crouch cancels throw a monkeywrench into everything.

    Still useful stuff to know for poking your way around shields.

    I think just knowing when people can jump out will help me to call the jumps better so I am not caught kicking at air and getting drillshined.
     
  36. ChivalRuse

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    Nice work.
     
  37. mers

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    You might find dash cancel utilts difficult, cuz they're ****ing difficult, but more power to you if you can pull them off.
     
  38. KirbyKaze

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    DC tilts are ****
     
  39. ChivalRuse

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    You can dash cancel reverse f-tilt, which is pretty slick.
     
  40. KirbyKaze

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    I've actually done those in combos and sometimes after dash attacks whiff behind me after the dash cancel. The first time I distinctly remember panicking - I was like "What do I do?"

    Dumb question, I know. F-tilt is almost always correct with Sheik.

    Dash cancel is really underrated. To quote Cactuar, "Run > dash cancel is basically the long distance version of walking."
     
    Lupoor likes this.

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