Frame Advantage On Block

[Bones0]

Whenever I use run cancel, I feel like WDing out of run would have been superior in every way except for the CC bonus...


I'm done calling this **** dash cancelling when it's such a misleading name.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I was actually thinking about how dash cancel is misleading the other day but good luck changing the smash lexicon at this point

DC is here to stay

WD commits you more because you can't shield, jump, grab, etc. during its startup

So there are advantages to run > DCing

I use WD a lot where I should be run > DCing - WD is very convenient and easy but I think vs the characters you'd be using run > DC against most often, you really want to retain options like shield & jump at all times (especially with Sheik)

 

[Bones0]

You can jump and grab during the startup for WDes... I could see how it commits you more because you have to airdodge sooner in order to have a similar advantage compared to run cancel where I think it's only 4 frames vs. WD's 10 frames.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you're WDing I think you are likely committed to the WD and not going to decide during the opening 4 frames or whatever that WD is not appropriate and what is really appropriate is JC grab

This is partially because of human reaction time and partially because WD is generally treated as a single action (which may or may not be correct, but 4 frames is an awfully small window to change your mind)

 

[Bones0]

Well I was mainly thinking about running towards an opponent and realizing before you start the WD that you would rather jump or grab or shield. So even though run cancelling is faster, you still have pretty much the same timing of committal to your action because of human reaction time. You're not going to decide mid-WD to jump or grab instead, but that also means you're not going to decide mid-run cancel that you'd rather do something else. So the run cancel itself is faster than the entire portion of the WD, but you can start the WD from further away from your destination, and you're going to have to commit to a run cancel mentally at about the same time.

Hopefully you get what I'm saying. I know I'm not explaining it very well.

 

[Cactuar]

Run-> WD is good for:
1) Running towards the edge, wding forward towards the edge, dashing opposite, wding back onto ledge.
2) Retreating from an overcommitment while running towards the opponent.

Run-> DC is better for pretty much every other scenario that you could use Run-> WD.

 

[Bones0]

Instead of #1, you can be like Mew2King and teeter cancel your run instead. :D

Idk why I care since play Falco, so there is never a need to run anyway. Maybe that's why run cancelling seems so much slower to me.

 

[soap]

the difference is mainly you are running in for a ftilt and you can decide to shield instead if you feel an attack coming wheras if you wavedashed into that space you may get hit in the ten frame cooldown.

Dash WD is pretty useful for continuing forward out of a foxtrot tho. Say you were trying to dash dance grab something, but they are overshooting and you want to continue moving forward, I wavedash out in those frames where you can not dash again.

 

[Bones0]

the difference is mainly you are running in for a ftilt and you can decide to shield instead if you feel an attack coming wheras if you wavedashed into that space you may get hit in the ten frame cooldown.

Yeah, but the time it takes you to decide to shield is about as long as a WD so you're committed to dash cancelling mentally at the same time as the WD. The fact that you could shield in that 6 frame difference is irrelevant because you're not going to be able to react soon enough to do it. Basically what I'm saying is, human reaction time is about 10 frames, so whether you spend those 10 frames helplessly in airdodge landing lag or walking of your own free will, able to shield at any time is irrelevant because what you're doing for the next 10 frames isn't going to change.

 

[TheGoat]

Is shieldstun really just based off of percent damage?

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes, it is.

 

[TheGoat]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11227865

Then are these shieldstun data wrong? for example it says her f-air has 15 frames of shield stun, it would have to do 30% damage in order for that to occur. Am I wrong?

 

[bubbaking]

I feel like the "shield stun" value isn't being measured or displayed in frames, but in some arbitrary unit just for comparison purposes...

 

[Strong Badam]

Those numbers are Hitlag + Shieldstun, rather than simply Shieldstun.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Are not some attacks given specific amounts of shield stun on block? Or maybe I am thinking of hitstun on block.

 

[bubbaking]

What the heck is "hitstun" on block?

 

[Kaffei]

What the heck is "hitstun" on block?

pretty sure it's when u shield a move and u receive lag
idk

 

[Bones0]

That's shield stun. He mentioned shield stun on block, which is redundant, in addition to hitstun on block, which is nonexistent. In all likelihood, he was referring to hitlag. I know electric attacks have twice as much hitlag as other moves, but idk about any other moves having different frame data like that.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol yea, hitlag.

 

[Praxis]

So this thread is ancient but I have questions!

With aerial moves:

First and foremost, aerials are weird because you don't know when you're hitting with them in the air. So completely precise calculations, while possible, aren't usually gonna match exactly what's happening in a match because we don't see in frames (unless you're Sveet or Strong Bad).

Instead, you kind of get a general idea of safety by comparing the l-cancel time to the amount of shield stun you glean.

I'll use Sheik's fair as an example because I'm familiar with it.

F-Air

Total: 33
Hit: 5-7
Auto cancel: <4 11>
Landlag: 16
L canceled: 8

Let's assume full power. 13%. That means 7 frames of shield stun. So basically, if you hit the fair at ground level (lowest point of their shield) and L-cancel immediately after, you are at -1. The higher you do the attack on their shield, the less advantage you gain.

So Sheik's fair has 8 frames of landing lag when L cancelled, and does 7 frames of shield stun, so you calculate that if you are perfect, this move has -1 frames of lag.

Is it possible to hit the fair on the same frame you land? Don't you have to account for one extra frame to hit the ground?

i.e. you hit with fair on frame 7, touch the ground on frame 8, then suffer 8 frames of landing lag. You lag until frame 16. Meanwhile, you hit fair on frame 7, they suffered 7 frames of landing lag, and they lagged until frame 14. You had a -2 advantage.

Or am I mistaken?

 

[Bones0]

So Sheik's fair has 8 frames of landing lag when L cancelled, and does 7 frames of shield stun, so you calculate that if you are perfect, this move has -1 frames of lag.

Is it possible to hit the fair on the same frame you land? Don't you have to account for one extra frame to hit the ground?

i.e. you hit with fair on frame 7, touch the ground on frame 8, then suffer 8 frames of landing lag. You lag until frame 16. Meanwhile, you hit fair on frame 7, they suffered 7 frames of landing lag, and they lagged until frame 14. You had a -2 advantage.

Or am I mistaken?

Shield stun doesn't begin until hitlag ends. The frame after hitlag ends, assuming you fair low enough, Sheik is in the L-cancel landing lag animation. Starting from the last frame of hitlag, it would look like this:

Frame - Sheik - Shielding Opponent
0 - Fair hitlag - Fair hitlag
1 - Landing lag - Shield stun
2 - Landing lag - Shield stun
3 - Landing lag - Shield stun
4 - Landing lag - Shield stun
5 - Landing lag - Shield stun
6 - Landing lag - Shield stun
7 - Landing lag - Shield stun
8 - Landing lag - Free to act
9 - Free to act - Free to act

 

[Praxis]

Shield stun doesn't begin until hitlag ends. The frame after hitlag ends, assuming you fair low enough, Sheik is in the L-cancel landing lag animation. Starting from the last frame of hitlag, it would look like this:

Frame - Sheik - Shielding Opponent
0 - Fair hitlag - Fair hitlag
1 - Landing lag - Shield stun
2 - Landing lag - Shield stun
3 - Landing lag - Shield stun
4 - Landing lag - Shield stun
5 - Landing lag - Shield stun
6 - Landing lag - Shield stun
7 - Landing lag - Shield stun
8 - Landing lag - Free to act
9 - Free to act - Free to act

Thank you very much!
So final question- is hitlag thus always identical for both the attacker and shielder?

 

[Bones0]

Thank you very much!
So final question- is hitlag thus always identical for both the attacker and shielder?

 

[Praxis]

@ Bones0 , So the video doesn't show anything about shields, is hitlag on shields the same as on a player?

 

[tauKhan]

@ Bones0 , So the video doesn't show anything about shields, is hitlag on shields the same as on a player?

Shield hitlag is the same as the attackers hitlag, i.e regular amount without electric modifier increasing it. So with knee for example the victim has more hitlag if he gets hit than what he he has if he blocks it.