Fox - Guide and Discussion Thread

[jimmyjoe]

No way, it wasn't even that cool. I only watched it like 12 times


Edit: but actually yeah, I kinda thought we were on the topic of breaking shields.

 

[ballin4life]

wasn't on shield.

i assumed that shine usmash wouldn't work on Pika because shine sends Pika far away (compared to Falcon, DK, etc).

 

[Sangoku]

I think it works if the DI wrong. But maybe the drill helps too (as it superposes the 2 characters).

 

[Han Solo]

I don't care what any of you say, jabbing the front of someone's shield does not work at all.

 

[KnitePhox]

I don't care what any of you say, jabbing the front of someone's shield does not work at all.

i agree it is bad, i still prefer it to grabbing; utilt and angled up/partial low ftilt is neat alternative to jabs
ive found jabs to work on link, samus and yoshi cuz it beats each of their grabs and usmash

too funny when link tries to upb out of sheild to get jabbed

 

[Doomolish]

I'm trying with jab-shine, but I'm starting to think it doesn't work.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

it works, just work on your timing

don't know specific frame talk but it's not too hard, you're shine canceling right?

 

[King Omega]

Fox's ftilt and jab are stupidly weak. I would have so much more success with Fox if he could put some weight behind those moves.

Sigh. Guess I need to shield pressure better with aerials.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah damn you Fox's jab... oh wait it's the best in the game by far. Also jabbing shields works.

 

[Atlasatlast]

Alright well everyone is saying the better you are with fox the less you drill. I'm currently at the point where I'm learning how to do that consistently at different percentages, weights, etc. Should I finish perfecting this skill regardless of its use and escapability at high level play?
EDIT: referring to the drill>dtilt/utilt/jab combo

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Alright well everyone is saying the better you are with fox the less you drill.

whoever said that shouldn't be allowed to say things

 

[King Omega]

Yeah damn you Fox's jab... oh wait it's the best in the game by far. Also jabbing shields works.

Oh, wait, I didn't say it wasn't useful; I said it was weak.

Should I finish perfecting this skill regardless of its use and escapability at high level play?
EDIT: referring to the drill>dtilt/utilt/jab combo

Yes. It's an excellent combo and even if they DI out of it you have a free grab or other punish.

 

[Han Solo]

it works, just work on your timing

don't know specific frame talk but it's not too hard, you're shine canceling right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvAevowzSTg

I would love to get Sangoku in here to test out what the timing is (or teach me how) for Fox's jab on shield to not get shield-grabbed by Falcon and Pika and also upsmash OoS by Falcon.

 

[Atlasatlast]

[...] the Drill is very escapable too.

To be good with fox you need to master chaining all your aerials...Fair, Bair, and Nair to finish

the less you use Drills the better your fox is getting (assuming you still are able to combo obviously...)

This kinda thing is what I was referring to. Thanks for the advice, I'll drill that technique till I get it then

 

[ballin4life]

it works, just work on your timing

don't know specific frame talk but it's not too hard, you're shine canceling right?

Yeah damn you Fox's jab... oh wait it's the best in the game by far. Also jabbing shields works.

Can we get some resolution on this? It literally never works for me.

 

[SheerMadness]

I think you need to define "works"...

I jab shields all the time without getting punished. Jabbing their shield then grabbing almost always works. I run around and low laser - jab shield pressure and tech chase like every match, because it's fun.

 

[ballin4life]

I mean I get shield grabbed / hit by an OOS attack every time

 

[Han Solo]

What I mean by "works" is if the character in shield has no options to get out of their shield or if the only option is to roll out or jump out.

They cannot shield-grab you or any OoS attack.

 

[Kimimaru]

If you're jab pressuring Mario, what are his best OOS options?

 

[Sangoku]

I missed that discussion. I'll test everything in a near future.

 

[ballin4life]

I missed that discussion. I'll test everything in a near future.

you sir are a gentleman and scholar.

 

[SheerMadness]

What I mean by "works" is if the character in shield has no options to get out of their shield or if the only option is to roll out or jump out.

I don't think it's as black and white as you guys want it to be. It doesn't "work" or "not work", there are a lot of situations where it does and doesn't work.

Depends how close you are to them while jabbing and which character you're jabbing. Like if you're jabbing another Fox too close to their shield I'm quite sure they can shine OOS every time.

EDIT: Oh and the shield stun before you jab matters too I think. Which is why my laser to jabs never get punished. Cause laser + jab shield stun adds up.

See, way too situational to just say if it works or not IMO.

 

[Sangoku]

^Pretty sure this is untrue. The same applies with hitstun: if you laser someone who got hit by rest, the final hitstun is just the laser's one, even though the laser hit during rest's hitstun. Also if your theory is true, the closer you get to shieldbreaking, the easier it should get as all the shieldstun would add up.

I'll test that as well.

By "work or not" they meant whether or not the timing (ie frame advantage) makes it possible or not.

 

[SheerMadness]

I don't know. Like I've said in the past I've never studied this game in depth. All I know is what works in game play so I go by that.

Generally doing something to someone's shield (aerial or laser) and following it up with a jab has almost always seemed safe to me. But there are situations, like vs a OOS shine, where it isn't safe.

 

[Yobolight]

For these aforementioned OOS shines do you not cancel it so that you don't have to waste frames with the initial jump?

 

[rjgbadger]

lol sheer there isn't any knockback/hitstun stacking in this game

why is everyone insisting on jabbing a shield? just go for the blaster grab, or aerial grab, or just grab, or just shine pressure? I only consider jab to be a good option if youre hitting the back of the shield, and even then there are better options. unless i'm missing something about the jab on shield, its hardly a B- option

 

[Sangoku]

For these aforementioned OOS shines do you not cancel it so that you don't have to waste frames with the initial jump?

Without initial jump you'd have to drop the shield, which is slower than jumping.

 

[ballin4life]

lol sheer there isn't any knockback/hitstun stacking in this game

why is everyone insisting on jabbing a shield? just go for the blaster grab, or aerial grab, or just grab, or just shine pressure? I only consider jab to be a good option if youre hitting the back of the shield, and even then there are better options. unless i'm missing something about the jab on shield, its hardly a B- option

Happens frequently when you are trying to hit them with a jab and they manage to get shield up in time to block it.

 

[Sangoku]

Jabbing a second time works everytime (Fox has one frame advantage)

Doing something else (you need to wait for the whole jabbing animation to finish before starting something else, unlike the second jab which cancels the first jab's ending lag) gives you a 4 frames disadvantage.


2nd fastest attack is shining (after jabbing) which takes 5 frames (3 of jumps + 2 to get the shine out). In total the opponent has 9 frames to touch Fox.

Here are a few examples of what would hit Fox:

-Pika's grab OoS
-Kirby's nair OoS
-Captain Falcon's Usmash OoS
-Another Fox's shine OoS
-Another Fox's grab OoS
-Everyone jumping out (might depend on the initial position, but they need to jump out horizontally, not only vertically)
-And so on...

Grabbing after the first jab requires 2 more frames, so 11 in total (4 frames disadvantage + 7 of grabbing). Therefore, any attack previously mentioned would work. Jumping out doesn't always work: if the shielding character jumps too early, he won't beneficiate of his initial jump invincible frames, so he will get grabbed.

That's about it I guess. If you want more precision, for example if you want me to test a specific attack to see if it works, or if you want to know the exact frame advantage (ie error window) of a specific attack, feel free to ask. Or if you wonder what happens after the second jab.

 

[The Star King]

So basically all the top tiers. Lol. Go figure.

wut @ Kirby nair OoS. It's faster than grab?

 

[SheerMadness]

There are specific situations I'm curious about. I'm pretty sure Fox can space his jab correctly to be far enough away that an opposing Fox can't shine OOS and hit with it correct? I'm thinking you may be able to space jab far enough away to escape other OOS situations too (like a Fox grab OOS) and maybe even Falcon upsmash. I know I space jab Falcon shields in front of them all the time and get away with it.

So basically, test out Fox's jab spacing and how it affects the chances of him being punished. If you can.

Also Yoshi has some crazy shield properties. Like sometimes you can hit Yoshi's shield and even though it's not a parry (the shield is clearly out for multiple frames) Yoshi will have VERY little shield stun and be able to jump or up smash out extremely quickly.

 

[ballin4life]

Jabbing a second time works everytime (Fox has one frame advantage)

To be clear, you mean doing the "second jab" (the one that leads into the rapid A), not doing another "first jab", right?

Does the second jab have the same properties as the first jab?

 

[Han Solo]

...jabbing shields works.

 

[The Star King]

^wut? It does. Still dunno what we mean by "works". It is useful in some situations.

 

[asianaussie]

he's just saying that cuz he'd rather shinebreak the shield

 

[Sangoku]

So basically, test out Fox's jab spacing and how it affects the chances of him being punished. If you can.

You are most correct, it is easily avoidable. Here are the boundaries for some attacks (the first image is the farthest without getting punished, the second is the closest).
Fox's shieldgrab:

Fox's shine:

Falcon's Usmash:

Also Yoshi has some crazy shield properties. Like sometimes you can hit Yoshi's shield and even though it's not a parry (the shield is clearly out for multiple frames) Yoshi will have VERY little shield stun and be able to jump or up smash out extremely quickly.

To parry an attack, you just need to shield from 4 frames before getting touched to 1 frame before getting touched, it doesn't matter if you continue shielding so that the egg comes out or not.

To be clear, you mean doing the "second jab" (the one that leads into the rapid A), not doing another "first jab", right?

Yes, I meant the one leading into the rapid kicks, not another first jab (as you can't cancel the first jab with another first jab).

Does the second jab have the same properties as the first jab?

Hmm probably not, haven't tested yet.

 

[SheerMadness]

Not quite sure I understand the pics. The first pic of each sequence is as far away as Fox can space and still hit with jab correct? And he can't get punished in any of those scenarios?

The second pic is Fox obviously closer and being punished? Or as close as he can jab without getting punished? Cause it LOOKS like he'd get punished by Fox's shine and Falcon's upsmash in the 2nd pics.

Anyway I've always been curious why no one ever talks about spacing Fox's jab. I've always done it and I almost never get punished by anything. You can space that crap pretty far away, as shown in the pics.

EDIT: Good job with the pics btw.

 

[Sangoku]

Fox hits the shield in every case (that's why the shield is silver). So the first pic is as far as Fox can be jabbing a shield (lolhitbox). He's obviously safe since he's so far away. The second pic is the closest Fox can get in order to jab the shield without risking to be punished by the corresponding attacks (grab, shine and usmash). Remember that while jabbing Fox makes a step forward, so when he's finished, he'll go back to where he originally was, which is a bit further away.

Edit: here's a rough superposition of the hitbox

 

[SheerMadness]

Yah I know the hitbox is deceivingly far and he does step backwards when finished, which makes it even more safe.

Both of those reasons are why I brought up spacing jabs in the first place.

So to sum it up there's basically there's no OOS move in the game that can effectively punish a properly spaced Fox jab?

 

[Kimimaru]

If you want more precision, for example if you want me to test a specific attack to see if it works, or if you want to know the exact frame advantage (ie error window) of a specific attack, feel free to ask. Or if you wonder what happens after the second jab.

Will Mario/DK/Samus' Up + B OOS get you out of the pressure? I'd like to know if the following things can get out of the pressure as well:

-Mario's U-smash
-Mario's U-air (not likely just thinking of it, but it would be nice to know for sure)
-Shield dropping through a platform