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Fox - Guide and Discussion Thread

Battlecow

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It's called sandbagging (the not doing anything after the uair)

but the perfect tech predictions are unnatural yeah

actually after all my arguing back in the day, I looked at the videos and again and yeah they kind of look TAS to me :troll::troll::troll:

not sure if confirmation bias :glare: (ok not confirmation because I wasn't arguing the TAS side, but, like, I was looking for TAS and I saw TAS, dunno what to call it)
LOL battlecow partly switches to non-TAS and SK partly switches to TAS

ourselves from back in the day would kill our current selves. Do you remember how sure we were?

Although now that even you're doubting I might have to put myself back in the definitely-TAS camp
 

The Star King

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Well I don't think I was ever that sure. Because as a principle I am never too sure on things like this that cannot and never will never be proven. Unlike how you were, you self-assured twit :troll::troll::troll:

But in all seriousness yeah I was thinking the same thing lol

I think part of it is that, if you ask me, part of intellectual maturity is learning to doubt yourself, and we, er, matured. But I would have said the same thing back then so it's not this an epiphany I reached in recent years... blarg.
 

Battlecow

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obvious ham-handed "mistake" thrown in to make it look real, perhaps? I mean, it doesn't even really look like a mistake a real person would make.

Also I just caught swebits' SH double Uair combo on the first stock there. LOL if they're not TAS they're some crazy mother****ers. I remember there was an argument on smashboards about whether SH double uair was even possible and I had to go into 1/4 speed to find out
 

The Star King

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Yeah I saw that and that was actually pretty much final nail in the coffin for me and what prompted me to post that. As well as the techchasing, odds just aren't good. The DI I don't care about.

Although that argument was silly, you guys surprise me sometimes with what you think is or isn't possible
 

prisonchild

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Also I just caught swebits' SH double Uair combo on the first stock there. LOL if they're not TAS they're some crazy mother****ers. I remember there was an argument on smashboards about whether SH double uair was even possible and I had to go into 1/4 speed to find out
touché, looks like we can put this baby to bed.
 

rjgbadger

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i'm not sure if those vids are tas or not

they definitely play oddly

with the DI/lack of DI at times, and the really, really bad edgeguard/derp moments

but then again they could be inconsistent with DI

the more i think about it its TAS, but im still torn. Can we return to the fox discussion?
 

RickySSB

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Why everyone gives a link to THEIR own videos? lol

EDIT: Tank, don't hate me <3

Shine cancel isn't so convenient on a match
 

TANK64

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^^lol that match.

@Ricky, lol Dude... You're crazy.
Granted like everyone sucks at shining (usefully), so don't feel bad.

Um the "laggy johns" games E-Kel was talking about. Yeah I literally would have lost that set if it weren't for some clever shine canceling (and the greatest player composure ever :cool:). Shine is too broken (if you know how to us it :troll: ). I literally comboed into double shine for every other stock lol.

Like this video I just found.
http://youtu.be/_TrPqPad22U?t=2m10s
:troll: :troll: :troll:

Uair, upTilt, shine>shine. Joke combo.

20% percent z-death. Sounds convenient to me...

inB4 E-kel gets mad at this old noob vid of his.
 

rjgbadger

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whats the best way to edgeguard a falcon?

i try to go out after him but always get the 'YES!'

or a wait and go for that down-angled ftilt i generally i can't get enough of them to kill (low %)

and downsmash isn't the tool it used to be (japanese version)
 

The Star King

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Depends on the situation but fair/bair, fsmash... I also have a double dair gimmick in this MU but I haven't tested it much. You could try to dtilt -> fair maybe. Don't shine it's for noobs (inb4 Solo)

BTW down-angled ftilt has set knockback so yeah lol
 

rpotts

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Use lasers to catch his double jump and/or interrupt his falcon punch recovery which will force him to go low. At lower percents, or mid percents on the J version, you can use dtilt (make sure you space back and don't stand right on the ledge; try and have it so the tip of Fox's tail is right at the ledge or just haning over) to catch him at the ledge then follow up with nair/fair -> edgehog. As long as he's not at the very beginning of his upb when he's by the ledge fsmash or dash attack will work too, as B Link pointed out, but if he's too close or catches you with the huge magnetic grabbox at the beginning of his upb, he'll YEHZ you every time, sometimes even pulling you down offstage and bouncing you off the wall setting you up to get brutally edgeguarded, or simply stage spiked on pupupuland.

If you force him to upb high I'd full hop out backwards and try to hit him with the tip of your bair, which easily combos into more bairs if spaced right at virtually all percents, also it seems to get grabbed by Falcon's upb less often than nair or possibly fair. Falcon may see this coming and try and space away, if this happens he's essentially limiting his options to grabbing the ledge only, so try and jump back and grab the ledge, refresh your invincibilty and try edgehog him. If he manages to land on the stage you should ledgehop any aerial or double lasers to try and punish him during his small landing lag on upb.
 

rjgbadger

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wait are you sure down angled ftilt has set KB?i thought it was just really low KB with fairly low KB growth

aaand i hate using fsmash as an edgeguard, dash attack is decent though

from the ledge i've managed to get some good drop-reverse fairs/nairs. bair is reilable tho

i'm just really bad at knowing when to hit falcon during his up b. like, embarrassingly bad

it stems from me always wanting to hit my opponent again offstage (inner pika). onstage edgeguards are ghay
 

B Link

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Use lasers to catch his double jump and/or interrupt his falcon punch recovery which will force him to go low.
Interesting. I never really thought of why I laser when I edgeguard lol. I kinda just copied it from other people without knowing the reason why (except...I know why I laser when I'm doing an "LD" edgeguard :troll:). I mean, I know it hits them, but I forgot that it can also pressure them, or even force them into having no choice but to go low.

rpotts said:
As long as he's not at the very beginning of his upb when he's by the ledge fsmash or dash attack will work too, as B Link pointed out, but if he's too close or catches you with the huge magnetic grabbox at the beginning of his upb, he'll YEHZ you every time, sometimes even pulling you down offstage and bouncing you off the wall setting you up to get brutally edgeguarded, or simply stage spiked on pupupuland.
I really need to learn how to not get YEHZ'd so often...
 

rpotts

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wait are you sure down angled ftilt has set KB?i thought it was just really low KB with fairly low KB growth

aaand i hate using fsmash as an edgeguard, dash attack is decent though

from the ledge i've managed to get some good drop-reverse fairs/nairs. bair is reilable tho

i'm just really bad at knowing when to hit falcon during his up b. like, embarrassingly bad

it stems from me always wanting to hit my opponent again offstage (inner pika). onstage edgeguards are ghay
Well, in 64 many ftilts can be angled a number of different directions, unlike Melee which just has three - normal, high, and low - so depending on how low we're talking about changes the answer. If the ftilt is angled as low as possible it has set knockback as evidenced here- AntD's TAS vid. However, you can angle the ftilt a bit lower without being as low as possible and it still has regular style knockback gradient, just with a bit less knockback and slightly lower angle than the regular ftilt.

Dash attack is ok, though if you miss with the strong hitbox Falcon's upb can YEHZ you. I still vote spaced bair or even dair to semi-spike them just a bit, though repeated dairs will certainly get you YEHZ'd.

I wouldn't recommend using ledge drop reverse fair, sounds like you're cruisin' for a YEHZ'n. Bair works much better if you space far enough so he can't grab your hurtbox with his ridiculous magnet-box-of-an-upb.

The best time to hit Falcon during his upb is any time other than the first few frames. Once he's at the peak of his upb jump or after he's free. Use attacks with longer hitboxes (bair, fair, uair if you can get below him when he goes high) and space farther away rather than trying to get up in his sauce; that's what he wants. YEHZ.

Fox is better at edgeguarding Falcon offstage than he is off, in my opinion. Also, if you get YEHZ'd offstage he'll generally send you back to center stage somewhere, unless you're at very high percent. If you get YEHZ'd at the ledge he may magnet pull you down and stage spike you for a low percentage KO. He's good at counter edgeguarding like that. YEHZ.

Interesting. I never really thought of why I laser when I edgeguard lol. I kinda just copied it from other people without knowing the reason why (except...I know why I laser when I'm doing an "LD" edgeguard :troll:). I mean, I know it hits them, but I forgot that it can also pressure them, or even force them into having no choice but to go low.

I really need to learn how to not get YEHZ'd so often...
Yea, just a SHDL or two will usually cut it, try and time it just before they're out of hitstun, since that's when they'll be trying to come out with an immediate DJ Falcon Punch recovery. Sets up for easy ledgehogs or forces them onstage.

See above.

Don't be stupid, don't listen B Link.
YEHZ.
 

rjgbadger

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well to be honest and obvious, the reverse fair is 10% utility 90% way too fun

and i didn't know that ftilt could be angled more than standard-hi-lo like melee. i would assume that i'm doing it pretty low, but idk if i do them at the lowest possible. i just kick and my foot goes a little below the ledge. i'll watch more closely next time i play.

because i can't do many 0-death combos i try to make up for it with playing kinda jank. i would say my game is 20% solid combos, 35% gimping, 35% turtling with blaster, and 10% spamming pivot/shine maneuvering.

in youtube videos i've seen fox players land bair-fast fall first hit uair, sometimes multiple times in a combo. i can first hit uair somewhat reliably, but i can never seem to get one out of a bair. ive seen it against fox, falcon, dk, and link, but i haven't been able to do it, is there a trick i'm missing or is the timing/percent/spacing super specific or what?
 

KnitePhox

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Advancing bair is cool too(lmao sk, try it on kb plz)

Also if you pivot and jump before fox turns around on the ground u can do kool kid looking running bairs, makes me feel good on the inside when I do them


Fox peeps attending apex...I wana have a mini fox only fd tourney 5-8man round robin to 4man bracket for fun/bragging rights

Lol no one will see this

EDIT:Badger, there's certain %s as well as delay and hitbox of bair u can do it at, its possible on all chars

There's 5 ftilt angles in 64 for fox falcon (and others iirc), I dunno how many in melee, I'd guess 7
 

The Star King

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Advancing bair is cool too(lmao sk, try it on kb plz)

Also if you pivot and jump before fox turns around on the ground u can do kool kid looking running bairs, makes me feel good on the inside when I do them
Dunno why you would bring up your past dumness about the advancing bairs again but OK
 

ballin4life

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disproving determinism
in youtube videos i've seen fox players land bair-fast fall first hit uair, sometimes multiple times in a combo. i can first hit uair somewhat reliably, but i can never seem to get one out of a bair. ive seen it against fox, falcon, dk, and link, but i haven't been able to do it, is there a trick i'm missing or is the timing/percent/spacing super specific or what?
Can you link an example? I don't really understand what you're talking about here.

Fox peeps attending apex...I wana have a mini fox only fd tourney 5-8man round robin to 4man bracket for fun/bragging rights
I approve. Even though I don't like Fox dittos that much.
 

SheerMadness

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For bair to up air you don't need to fast fall the up air.

It's usually done at mid to high percents after an up air because nair or fair will send them too far to combo.

You wanna bair before you hit them and use momentum to carry the bair into them, that way there's less knock back. That's when you'll be able to land an up air. No need to fast fall.
 

Yobolight

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Technical question about Fox - I use 64 controller

For short hop double laser should I use the stick or the buttons? If I use the buttons do I slide my fingers?

On shine jump-canceling. I typically do a button slide, is this optimal?
 

Battlecow

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There's no such thread

DI is highly dependent on the situation... you just have to think about which way will net you the best results. Smart DI comes with experience. often different people like to DI things different ways, like falcon's fair is really important to DI but people do it like 6 different ways that all work sometimes. samus's up-B you DI hard up or hard down if you don't get it right off. Those are sort of the big ones that there's a specific way to do. if you get sh uair'd by a falcon or uair chained so you're near a plat, you wanna DI down to catch the plat and tech. stuff like that.
 
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