Fox Board Stage Discussion [#9 - Brinstar] Discuss now!

[Uzima (Uzi)]

this stage can be so much ****, and also help you out so much, one hell of a double edged sword.

 

[Zephil]

**** this stage.

agrees... well most of the information of this level is already in moon-doogie thread... but I still think this level is bad for fox in most of the matches.. against Pikachu I love this place and maybe against falco and wolf as they also suffer from the ledges but the rest... I will prefer my normal counterpicks

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't really see what makes this such a "Bad" stage for Fox, to be honest...

it's long, with the most perfectly Fox-spaced platforms ever, and Fox doesn't really have recovery problems here at all..

Honestly, why is it so bad?

 

[Toronto Joe]

it depends what chars your playing against,but usually i strike this neutral after Yoshis Island(****ing hate that stage now), Fox does well on this level mostly due to the way the platforms are arranged,quite good for pressuring oppt, beneath the stage shine spikes can often times mean death because of Lylats weird edge,dont forget about fair stage spikes(i had to)

recovery shouldnt be too hard,but theres enough movement on the ledge to throw off your recovery once in a while,if you dont end up SDing you probably wont sweetspot the edge and get punished every few matches, if the stage titlrs and you have to recover with up-b it can get messy because of how easy it is to take Fox out of firefox,puts you in a really bad position

i dont mind taking Samus,Wario,Sonic,Diddy,DK here 1st game
prefer to not let Gw,Falco,ZSS,or Mk go here 1st game

edit: anyone ever try shooting lasers and the end of the stage and get ***** and fall off and die lol? effin lylat

 

[Fenrir VII]

it depends what chars your playing against,but usually i strike this neutral after Yoshis Island(****ing hate that stage now), Fox does well on this level mostly due to the way the platforms are arranged,quite good for pressuring oppt, beneath the stage shine spikes can often times mean death because of Lylats weird edge,dont forget about fair stage spikes(i had to)

recovery shouldnt be too hard,but theres enough movement on the ledge to throw off your recovery once in a while,if you dont end up SDing you probably wont sweetspot the edge and get punished every few matches, if the stage titlrs and you have to recover with up-b it can get messy because of how easy it is to take Fox out of firefox,puts you in a really bad position

i dont mind taking Samus,Wario,Sonic,Diddy,DK here 1st game
prefer to not let Gw,Falco,ZSS,or Mk go here 1st game

edit: anyone ever try shooting lasers and the end of the stage and get ***** and fall off and die lol? effin lylat

Yeah, Yoshi's is my least favorite neutral... even though it's an ok stage for Fox... just so darn random sometimes...

But Lylat is different, imo... like.. nobody should be missing the ledge anymore... I know it mixes things up, but it certainly doesn't have any of the impact it did a year ago...

Like... how much of each player's hate is just based on the past? should we, as Fox players, not have moved past the edge thing? I mean, I sweet spot it with canceled illusion about as consistently as anywhere else...

The level spacing and stage spikes are very nice for Fox, as well... it's long, promotes camping, and prohibits CGs and such... like, I think it's an overall really good stage for him, and don't really understand all the hate.

BIG also... as with Melee, a high firefox is incredibly hard to correctly punish. Nobody predicts it fast enough to punish the startup lag (assuming you space decently), and you can either recover deep into the stage or onto the ledge... character can't really punish both of these option effectively, so it's simply a matter of choosing the right one.

On paper, this doesn't seem as hard to punish as it is, but since Melee, Firefox higher than the ledge (about 45 degrees off the ledge and up) this has been one of Fox's safer recoveries.

While Illusion is fast, and goes far, it also has no priority in the front, so pretty much any time it is guessed, you get hit or die (in the case that they guessed a sweetspot illusion).

A low starting Firefox is almost never safe, as said before, but a high one is a very good mixup.

/rant on recoveries

 

[Toronto Joe]

i never said recovery was a major problem,just pointing out that when the stage tilts it can mess you up once in a while which is something that should be noted,you can hit Fox out of his firefox from anywhere, with Wolf for example he has the option of Shine spiking you from below,bair you from an angle,or dair as your coming up,maybe im not understanding this angle you recovering at ? wait nvm i know what your saying,but if Fox is far away from the stage then he still has the edgeguarding problem to deal with, that startup isnt saving him unless he's close,and if you recover high firefox isnt fast at all,they'll punish you as you recover onto the stage

lylat is far from a bad stage for fox,but it isnt that good either, theres much better options from the neutrals to choose from,might be my bias cause my friend is extremely cheesy with Mks down tilt on it lol

edit: the sloped ground makes camping difficult,not to mention the stage tilts(im never gonna let the stage tilts go LOL)

as for cgs,when falco comes to mind, his dair spike is tricky from below,can result in death through an edgehog if you mess up,that edge!

 

[Fenrir VII]

i never said recovery was a major problem,just pointing out that when the stage tilts it can mess you up once in a while which is something that should be noted,you can hit Fox out of his firefox from anywhere, with Wolf for example he has the option of Shine spiking you from below,bair you from an angle,or dair as your coming up,maybe im not understanding this angle you recovering at ? wait nvm i know what your saying,but if Fox is far away from the stage then he still has the edgeguarding problem to deal with, that startup isnt saving him unless he's close,and if you recover high firefox isnt fast at all,they'll punish you as you recover onto the stage

lylat is far from a bad stage for fox,but it isnt that good either, theres much better options from the neutrals to choose from,might be my bias cause my friend is extremely gay with Mks down tilt on it lol

edit: the sloped ground makes camping difficult,not to mention the stage tilts(im never gonna let the stage tilts go LOL)

as for cgs,when falco comes to mind, his dair spike is tricky from below,can result in death through an edgehog if you mess up,that edge is so gay!

No no, I get what you are saying, and I agree with you, mostly... I'm mainly arguing with the Fox player's general view of the stage.

And yes, Fox will always have to deal with edgeguarding... I was simply making a point (before I forget) to say that high firefox limits the punishability of the move, and gives Fox another option in recovering... which is pretty pertinent to the main argument against this stage.

Lylat is borderline not a netural now... which is pretty ridiculous, really... however, I think Lylat is in fact one of Fox's best neutrals... FD usually being his best. I honestly think Lylat is #2 if it's considered a neutral in almost every case. it's debateable with SVille, though.

The reason I say it benefits camping is this: It is a wide stage with plenty of running room for Fox... the tilting and slant of the platforms also makes the lasers able to hit crouchers... forcing even more characters to approach him.. yes, once in a while, the stage tilts to block your lasers, but then it comes back, and you can hit more than usual... Honestly, it's a bit of a tradeoff, but it certainly doesn't hamper camping.

and yeah, the chain spike is still good, but it doesn't kill Fox, as long as the Fox player keeps his head, and jumps in time... and the tilt screws some CGing, so overall, I think it's a pretty good choice, really...

 

[TKD]

2ble post 111

 

[TKD]

Lylat Cruise's tilting also helps Fox perform safe Bairs more quickly when the opponent's more elevated. I don't like Smashville much really, because it's too small and I think BF is better than SV for Fox.

STAGE DISCUSSION #5: Battleship Halberd

OVERALL RANKING 9.5/10

Probably Fox's best stage in Brawl. The low ceiling, superb platform spacing, and hazards of this stage really benefit him as a complete character. The only downsides of the stage really belonging to the flying section, which some characters can shark under... but Fox can just deal with this by camping platforms. Overall, everything on this stage (it's ceiling, platform, and length) really add to his game and make it his strongest CP in almost any matchup.

Are you serious? I've always thought of this stage as horrible for Fox.

The platform always covers the entire center of the stage. This means no fast-fall shenanigans, unless you perform them near the ledges. NO FAST-FALL SHENANIGANS! FOR FOX!! Fox's fast-fall is way too amazing to leave out. Also, being forced onto the platform by a sharking MK will only make you shield more and more and the shield depletes that way allowing shield pokes that lead into follow-ups against you.

Never before have I thought of this stage as a good one for Fox...it's mainly because of the center platform that doesn't allow fast-fall stuff (or more like prevents fast-fall stuff from reaching the main platform).

 

[Fenrir VII]

Lylat Cruise's tilting also helps Fox perform safe Bairs more quickly when the opponent's more elevated. I don't like Smashville much really, because it's too small and I think BF is better than SV for Fox.

Oh I'm mixed on SV vs BF, but SV's moving platforms seems to help more than hinder Fox...

Are you serious? I've always thought of this stage as horrible for Fox.

The platform always covers the entire center of the stage. This means no fast-fall shenanigans, unless you perform them near the ledges. NO FAST-FALL SHENANIGANS! FOR FOX!! Fox's fast-fall is way too amazing to leave out. Also, being forced onto the platform by a sharking MK will only make you shield more and more and the shield depletes that way allowing shield pokes that lead into follow-ups against you.

Never before have I thought of this stage as a good one for Fox...it's mainly because of the center platform that doesn't allow fast-fall stuff (or more like prevents fast-fall stuff from reaching the main platform).

Well, I mean, that can kinda be said for every stage with a platform. Granted, this one covers a large area in the center... and Fox does have trouble with fortressing... but the platform is also a bit higher than most, so it still allows for SH stuff just fine. or you can FFF through the platform and Nair... etc.

The low ceiling, though, and long flat platforms really do help Fox.

 

[TKD]

I love buffered SH fair against reachable opponents that stand on platforms. It makes them block like...5 safe hits. Either that or they get hit. If you think they'll air-dodge onto the platform, you can even full-hop dair onto the spot they'll land on and follow up.

 

[RPK]

SH Fair has to be buffered? o.O I just slide my thumb from X to A. Or just input it as normal in order to get the autocancel'd one.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Woo! I've updated the first post finally... sorry for that delay.

I'm going to leave Lylat going for a little while longer... I still think it's incredibly useful... and most Foxes hate it. lol


Although... one of the best recoveries for Fox, imo, is angled-down firefox from above...
and lately, the Lylat ledges haven't been taking any of that. Anybody know why characters won't grab the ledges? Is it because you're too close? that was the battlefield thing in Melee... and just to stop it before it comes up...no, I'm not holding down. lol.

 

[Toronto Joe]

lylat enjoys laughing at foxs recovery

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'm leaving this up, hoping that the new organization trend will spread, and the stage thread will keep going...

 

[Fenrir VII]

One more day for this Lylat discussion, as it seems to have died...

Really hoping somebody with insight on the ledges, and why they don't snap sometimes will come and talk. : )

 

[TKD]

Cancel the illusion to sweet-spot, DUH

 

[Fenrir VII]

Cancel the illusion to sweet-spot, DUH

Mainly talking about high firefox, angled down toward the ledge...

...............................................X

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Like this, where X is Fox... this is one of the harder recoveries for opponents to punish... and sometimes, it just goes right through the ledge... I'm wondering if angling it more away from the stage would benefit it, though...

thoughts?

 

[Fenrir VII]

...alright... then lylat is done. I really don't know what I'm going to put as a summary, but whatever.

Next stage is one of my new favorite counterpicks. Brinstar

Seriously, the level spacing is amazing for Fox... maybe his best for platforms and such... and the lava/acid (w/e it is) breaks up those annoying locks and CG's against his lol matchups.

On top of this, the lava (as I'm going to call it) doesn't hurt Fox as much as others, simply because of his very good aerial mobility... you can shine stall until it goes back down, and etc... so Fox has a better time moving around the platforms than most characters.

The platforms are not fortress-able... so somebody can't just stand under them and destroy Fox's approaches.

And just to put the icing on the cake... the lava and shine stalling prevent possible gimps. The attackable membranes on the platforms refill your smashes with lasers... and dair works wonders for breaking apart the stage to allow even MORE camping... The slopes really cover your illusions here, giving you interesting recovery options, and run off the side of the platform > Illusion is a very nice movement here.

Discuss!!

 

[DarkAura]

also learn where you slide on this level and where he slides to on this level because it can work to your advantage. An example would be when you land from a nair and you slide into Bairing range.

 

[moogle]

One more day for this Lylat discussion, as it seems to have died...

Really hoping somebody with insight on the ledges, and why they don't snap sometimes will come and talk. : )

I'm a little late... but on Lylat I think it's when the stage is moving/tilting is when you sometimes can't grab the edge, even with an angled-down firefox.

I know that I'm always scared to fwd-b or up-b to the ledge as Fox on Lylat. I've missed it too many times. Those weird ledges are the reason I usually ban Lylat.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Moogle: yeah, that's what I was figuring, but I was just wondering if it doesn't snap because you're too close to the ledge, or too far away, or just because it's tilting. It's certainly not fun, but workable, I guess.

 

[Curaga]

Give Lylat a 5/10. I think its all player style dependent.

Brinstar.. one of my favorite stages. Its a little scary versus Toon Link and MetaKnight, two people that I would more certainly prefer more space to fight. Brinstar to me is kind of a hybrid of Castle Siege and Halberd to me. Low blastzones, small stage, membranes to restore moves with laser, the ability to Up-B through stage, and a dynamic environment.

Don't take Ganon here. o_o

 

[Sosuke]

Ignore this post!!

 

[_X_]

Brinstar is one of my favorite counter-picks.
Not only does the lava stop Pika's STUPID chain-throw, ZSam's LAME DownSmash chain etc. it forces you to the top platform for epic dair > upsmash epic low % kills.

The position of the ledges is unique and doesn't aid platform depended characters like you'd think.

Fun stage and very underused as a CP.

@Curaga, I had no idea the stage hits restored un-fresh moves... >_>

 

[Curaga]

@Curaga, I had no idea the stage hits restored un-fresh moves... >_>

Just like the statues in Castle Siege I think?

Right?

Right?

¬(°w°¬)

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yep. statues in Castle Siege....
Shy Guys on yoshi's island
the balloon on smashville
the pillars on Luigi's Mansion
etc etc

all help refill moves. : ) fun, eh?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ok this thread is seriously overlooked... come on guys!! lol

 

[C8T]

Hi, long time fox board lurker here. I saw that u needed more replys, so i decided to sign up .

Brinstar is one of my favorite counter-picks.
Not only does the lava stop Pika's STUPID chain-throw, ZSam's LAME DownSmash chain etc. it forces you to the top platform for epic dair > upsmash epic low % kills.

The position of the ledges is unique and doesn't aid platform depended characters like you'd think.

Fun stage and very underused as a CP.

@Curaga, I had no idea the stage hits restored un-fresh moves... >_>

^ I absolutely agree with what _X_ states about fox and brinstar. Because of the lava Fox doesn't need to worry about sheik's f-tilt, pikas cg, or ic cg! This is just awesome really, fox actually now has a chance to **** those who normally infinite him. And yes the lava brings you to a perfect position for a kill.

Hope i helped

 

[*CT*]

Hm overall I think Fox would do pretty well on Brinstar. Haven't played there in a long time, but I would think that Fox's performance wouldn't be hindered here.

Thanks for the information, lots of learning to do :O

 

[*CT*]

Yep. statues in Castle Siege....
Shy Guys on yoshi's island
the balloon on smashville
the pillars on Luigi's Mansion
etc etc

all help refill moves. : ) fun, eh?

I was not aware of that, I just go for the balloon game on Smashville and laser the Shy Guys for the fun of it.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

thread needs finishing guys, we always just ***** out half way through something ><;

also, Battlefield getting a 5/10 is bull****

 

[Hanzhou]

Finish this up pl0x.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't mind finishing this, if people will discuss stuff. I don't want it to be "Fenrir's ideas on stage discussion"... things would be very different in that thread.

The last several stages have gotten pretty poor responses, so I didn't want to spend a writeup period for something nobody cares about. I'll finish the Brinstar discussion in the next couple of days and start another. We'll see how it goes.

 

[-Mars-]

I hate brinstar for Fox, I feel like it takes a lot away from things Fox is normally good at. It also makes recovering a pain in the ***, maybe that's just me though.

Fox does kill really early on this stage though, so I wouldn't mind banning RC against MK players and then getting taken here.

You can refresh your kill moves easily on this stage, the lava can keep you from getting gimped, the slants might set up some grab release opportunities on characters......anything i'm missing?