Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Bones0]

This is one of the many things you can use pause to test with. Pause while standing in neutral, hold down+B, then unpause. You will shine because, like Druggedfox said, it's a specific move with an individual input. If you pause, hold Y+Z, then unpause, you will simply jump. The whole idea behind JC grabs is that you go through 1 frame of jumpsquat to use a standing grab instead of a dash grab. Even if grab inputs took priority over jump inputs, you would simply dash grab. However, that's not the case because Melee gives jump inputs priority if you grab or shield on the same frame. I don't remember other priorities, but again, you can test these with pause. Hold Y+A and see which input gets acccepted (jump vs. jab). Sometimes messing up refined tech skill timings can be attributed to this system of input priority.

 

[Cold Fusion]

So I'm trying to pock up Fox as of this writing. But my problem with him now is that I feel VERY uncomfortable playing as him on a stage with platforms. Is there any particular type of training I should do? Or should I just play more and I'll eventually get the hang of it?

 

[Druggedfox]

No particular training, just practice more on all the platform stages.

Imo get used to how high your full jump goes relative to each of the platforms, how to waveland on them, choosing to land on them vs. fastfall through them, get used to double jumping from different heights, etc etc.

You're just gonna have to practice =P

 

[g_f]

is it possible to let go of the ledge of battlefield, immediately jump and reach a platform? is the margin of error for this movement tight? ?_?

 

[tauKhan]

It's quite easy to land on the platform. You can even get lagless dj land, but that is very hard, and wins you only 4 frames.

 

[Bones0]

is it possible to let go of the ledge of battlefield, immediately jump and reach a platform? is the margin of error for this movement tight? ?_?

Try ledge dropping with back instead of down. This ensures you don't fast fall which reduces your double jump's peak if you don't double jump on the first possible frame. Just make sure as soon as you release, you smash the stick towards the stage when you jump. It's a lot like a dash dance movement. If you get fast enough, you can actually land on Dream Land's side plats. I think you have to be double frame perfect to waveland onto them, but they are the highest platforms by a decent amount so all others stages are very possible to be consistent on (not counting FoD's side plats when they are at their highest variation).

 

[g_f]

i already tried to ledge drop with back but apparently i'm really slow in some kind of way(?), i'll go for the dashdance-like movement + jump button, thanks

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

god it's been forever. butttt i started playing a lot of fox and i wanted some critique if possible :D

http://www.twitch.tv/lolporcupine/b/525028520?t=105m

there's also some earlier matches of me vs falcon and a peach if anyone wants to critique that

 

[tauKhan]

Try ledge dropping with back instead of down. This ensures you don't fast fall which reduces your double jump's peak if you don't double jump on the first possible frame. Just make sure as soon as you release, you smash the stick towards the stage when you jump. It's a lot like a dash dance movement. If you get fast enough, you can actually land on Dream Land's side plats. I think you have to be double frame perfect to waveland onto them, but they are the highest platforms by a decent amount so all others stages are very possible to be consistent on (not counting FoD's side plats when they are at their highest variation).

I think it's easier to get maximal drift toward stage by letting go with down. Just learn to time the jump perfectly, it isn't hard. And if your jumps are imperfect, you are going to miss many ledgedashes, so it's important to learn.

 

[Bones0]

I think it's easier to get maximal drift toward stage by letting go with down. Just learn to time the jump perfectly, it isn't hard. And if your jumps are imperfect, you are going to miss many ledgedashes, so it's important to learn.

If you jump frame perfectly, your drift won't be affected by what you use to release because you won't build up any horizontal momentum (whereas you can build up a ton of vertical momentum pressing down even with 1 frame of error). But hey, if pressing down works for you, more power to you.

 

[tauKhan]

I meant it's faster to go from down to forward than backward to forward. When I use back I get less drift. But maybe I just like dropping with down because I played yoshi and didn't want to accidentally turnaround while doing ECEs.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Another question. Assuming that I can short hop double laser consistently, would there ever be a point on me doing a short hop single laser?

 

[tauKhan]

Short hop single laser can be fast falled, and is thus faster.

 

[Brookman]

pivot shine/JC shine > OP

But seriously. You guys are so far behind


^---this guy above me is talking about shl....


so small-scale, never going to get anywhere with that mind set. As if laser is good.

SHL = speed + accuracy. Judging by your inability to synthesize information though, I think you have much greater concerns than SHL vs. SHDL


silentSWAG, aka Silentwolf. - Saw you on stream today. Good **** I just think you shouldn't have been stubbornly edge dashing at the end vs. bladewise. once he starts devoting all his attention to covering that option you can escape to the platforms. shrug. I thought you had him anyway was looking forward to watching you vs. m2k!

also, congrats on being 21-0 vs. BO

 

[ctOph]

Quick question, in training mode, if I waveshine to upsmash, should the consecutive hits counter say 2 if I did it correctly? I've used that counter before to see if I'm say lcanceling my dair into shine correctly, as the counter won't say 1 after you shine if you lcanceled properly, but I'm not sure about waveshine into usmash.

 

[ctOph]

Just got it to work as 2 consecutive hits.. so yea, if you do it properly, waveshine into usmash should say 2 hits. I guess it only works on some chars though.

 

[SAUS]

I meant it's faster to go from down to forward than backward to forward. When I use back I get less drift. But maybe I just like dropping with down because I played yoshi and didn't want to accidentally turnaround while doing ECEs.

You don't have to hit all the way back. When I edge-hop, I move the stick slightly backwards, not even as far as I would move it for a tilt, and then jump forwards.

 

[tauKhan]

I do that too actually.

Edit: I misread that. I drop with slight input down. The main reason is actually that it's easier to get ledgedash angle.

@ Kadano Thanks for the info.

 

[Sinji]

What are some general baits fox dish out when an opponent approach? Jman would usually full hop bair behind them after they approach to gimp them. Is there more?

 

[Kadano]

I meant it's faster to go from down to forward than backward to forward. When I use back I get less drift. But maybe I just like dropping with down because I played yoshi and didn't want to accidentally turnaround while doing ECEs.

You can also use soft down-forward to ensure you don’t fastfall and have a very short distance to go to strong forward for maximum horizontal jump momentum gain.

Every pixel (except for the text obviously) displays a control stick x and y value combination and what action they will trigger when pressed from hanging on the right ledge.
The leftmost part of the pink area is what you should aim for. It will take some practicing until you never accidentally climb up, but imho it’s worth the effort. If you want to do a ledgedash, you also already have the control stick in almost the perfect angle you want to use for the airdodge.

The way I worded the ledgedrop-fastfall option might be misleading. You will only fastfall if your red area input stays active for an additional frame after you’ve dropped from the ledge and your jump timing is off by at least one frame.

 

[Tee ay eye]

kadano you're not allowed to help fox players

you belong to marth exclusively

<3

 

[Druggedfox]

Streaming GA Melee! http://www.twitch.tv/druggedfox

Come check out the fox :D

 

[Sinji]

Practiced against doc last night and noticed edge guarding doc is much easier then it looks.

When doc is horizontal about to throw a pill, go for a shine stall into a bair under him.

When he is recovering from below, tail whip his sweat spot attempt and go for an aerial to edge guard like the previous paragraph or the kill.

 

[Tero.]

Practiced against doc last night and noticed edge guarding doc is much easier then it looks.

When doc is horizontal about to throw a pill, go for a shine stall into a bair under him.

When he is recovering from below, tail whip his sweat spot attempt and go for an aerial to edge guard like the previous paragraph or the kill.

gonna try this, thanks!

 

[Ørn]

When he is recovering from below, tail whip his sweat spot attempt and go for an aerial to edge guard like the previous paragraph or the kill.

Dtilt doesn't hit Doc if he sweet spots his recovery.

If he's recovering from below, just ****ing take the edge and refresh your invincibility when appropriate. Hit him again if he goes onto the stage.

 

[Dsharp]

So I play claw, and one of my biggest problems is short hopping out of shine. I can waveshine 4 out of 5 times, but %90 when I try short hopping out of shine, I press jump too early and get stuck in the shine (this only happens when I hit something with the shine). Should I practice inputing the jump for my waveshine slower, or is there some good way to practice that timing?

 

[Druggedfox]

When you're waveshining are you hitting an opponent or doing it without hitting anyone?

 

[Dsharp]

I'm hitting an opponent, but I use a full jump for wavedashes/waveshines.

 

[Druggedfox]

It must be a mental thing then. The timing for the jump in your wavedash out of shine should be the same as short hopping out of it. Even if you full hop for wavedash, that's unrelated to whether or not you get stuck in it. It's likely that when trying to input jump for a shorter time peroid to get the short hop, you're inadverdently doing the input earlire.

 

[tauKhan]

So I play claw, and one of my biggest problems is short hopping out of shine. I can waveshine 4 out of 5 times, but %90 when I try short hopping out of shine, I press jump too early and get stuck in the shine (this only happens when I hit something with the shine). Should I practice inputing the jump for my waveshine slower, or is there some good way to practice that timing?

Practice against computer, I recommend 9 handicap bowser 0.5 damage ratio, spam shine on him, so hitlag won't throw your timing off in real matches.

 

[Tero.]

Guys, do we have a frame-by-frame breakdown somewhere on what's the best thing to do when you hit Samus shield?

Btw how does one link people on smashbaords?

 

[Druggedfox]

The best thing to do vs. samus is probably similar to the best thing to do against everyone else imo....

1) Space your aerials, dash away afterwards
2) Grab her instead of hitting her shield
3) Shine, turn around, and full jump out of range of their out of shield option, but keeping yourself in a position to pressure with bair, forcing them to retreat
4) Shine grab (against samus you probably should hold down and input a tech, to tech her up-b)

If you do a delayed enough nair shine instant aerial it should be fine against samus as well, but I still think just grabbing her or playing for positional advantage is a better standard play, and this is more something you would do based on having a feeling about what they'll do afterwards or if you're generally pressuring them really hard and want to keep the fast paced momentum up.

Edit: Oh yeah, you asked about frame data. Well, iirc based on KK's thread he made forever ago, fox doing shine immediate nair has a 4 frame gap between the shine and the nair. Samus up-b is invincible frame 1-5, and has 1 frame before it will start OoS (becuase of the jump squat...someone correct me if I'm wrong). It hits on frame 4. So if their timings are good enough they'll beat your immediate nair everytime. That said, if they're waiting for the shine, can you probably pretty easily put small delays to mess with their timing, and get them to input the up-b while they're still in blockstun...then go from there.

Still think you should just do normal fox things though

 

[tauKhan]

Is there any point in shine grabbing vs samus instead of just grabbing her? I think shines are used mainly to beat fast OoS options, but in her case the shine just loses to the up b. Wouldn't it be better to just grab and option select a tech?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, even Falco can't shine grab Samus because of up-B OoS. Also, aerial into shield is really good since they're basically never going to shield grab you (you can probably react even if they do lol). This heavily deters up-Bing OoS because if you block it you get a great punish on them. Just be wary of shield pokes.

 

[Druggedfox]

Shine doesn't lose to up-b, it keeps her honest. You can do nair shine as a true blockstring to prevent her from doing anything after the nair, and if she tries too she'll awkwardly get stuck during blockstun while doing an action.

You can OS a tech even during shine grab. Shine grab is strictly better frame wise than nair grab, and it allows a safe "initial point" for your conditioning game, rather than making any sort of assumptions about your opponent.

 

[Bones0]

Shine doesn't lose to up-b, it keeps her honest. You can do nair shine as a true blockstring to prevent her from doing anything after the nair, and if she tries too she'll awkwardly get stuck during blockstun while doing an action.

You can OS a tech even during shine grab. Shine grab is strictly better frame wise than nair grab, and it allows a safe "initial point" for your conditioning game, rather than making any sort of assumptions about your opponent.

I meant that she can up-B OoS between the shine and the grab. Delaying the shine can help, but it's already really hard to keep nair-shine as a true link so even the smallest delay on your shine to throw her off might result in you getting up-Bed after the nair. I guess it's just a matter of conditioning and style. For me, I would rather keep my pressure as safe as possible because if I get hit OoS as a spacie it can mean a KO, and if I hit Samus, it's like 20% max.

 

[Druggedfox]

Getting up-b'd OoS by samus shouldn't result in a KO?

And yea she can up-b between shine and grab, but that's why you hold down and OS a tech.

It's not hard to do nair shine as a link *at all*, you just delay the nair a lot >_>

And yea sure, they could up-b between the nair and the shine, but that's pretty risky honestly, and you can get a LOT more than 20% off that.

Also, if you read my first post, I highly advised doing no shield pressure on her. I was just saying that for people curious about shield pressure, those were your options.

 

[tauKhan]

It's not hard to do nair shine as a link *at all*, you just delay the nair a lot >_>

You need to be frame perfect for that, and the nair must not have a lot of stale. I can link like 1/7 nair shines on crouching fox at 0%, and that doesn't even require you to be frameperfect. But yeah it's kinda practical link, because your opponents reaction isn't often even close to frameperfect.

Edit: On a side note, I think it's good way to practice like that if you have another controller. Go to practice, neutral reset the other controllers analog stick to up, so it causes crouch, pick two foxes and nair shine on the crouching one at 0%. When your timing is excellent, it will combo.

 

[^AIR9170]

Ok, so how do I defeat a crouch cancel Peach? My friend plays as peach and whenever I'm not attacking he's pelting turnips at me and if I'm attacking he will crouch cancel downsmash.

 

[PGH Carroll]

drill > nair on CCing peaches