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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

LumpyCPU...

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half#198
EDIT: To Lumpy, yes that's true, but like, Marth's sword is broken and just comboes the crap out of Fox, unless Fox can get a shine in which is hard cuz of the broken sword...
I think Puff is a better character than Fox.

I would even say that that matchup could be in Puff's favor. The best Puffs really don't have an issue with it.
at around my level of play, fox is clearly the best character with no bad match ups. the worst he does is go even with falco and marth. i can't say it will stay the same at the highest levels of play. i just don't like using specific players as proof or evidence. it's practically impossible for two players to literally have equal skill levels.
 

StealthyGunnar

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at around my level of play, fox is clearly the best character with no bad match ups. the worst he does is go even with falco and marth. i can't say it will stay the same at the highest levels of play. i just don't like using specific players as proof or evidence. it's practically impossible for two players to literally have equal skill levels.
how would you approach marth if he's spamming fair or tilts?
 

LumpyCPU...

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half#198
if marth's spamming utilts, you can just laser him forever lol

fair's a bit different since he can approach and retreat while fairing.
i'm not good at this but i'd say pay attention to him and play reactive.
fox can always find a way in.
dash dance one pixel out of range to bait him and punish with either grab or shine wd grab or even nair/dair to waveshine grab.

i habitually do fulljumps or double jump bairs but i highly advise against that in most situations against marth.

/no help at all
 

RaynEX

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Hey, Raynex, or anyone with lots of tourney experience, could you critique this video from a tourney I just went to.

I'll say a few things to save you time. I only have one video up because that's the only one I played at the recording set-up. I know I air-dodged a lot. I will work on not doing that so often. I also realized I spot dodge a lot vs Marth ( suggestions for alternative moves are welcome ). And the most important thing to realize is that my strategy right now is to get a solid fox as my random character ( first match ) and then switch to peach and a good cp if I lose ( I'm actually a peach main ). That's all, thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JyOQcvkQXs
You double jump randomly, and much more than you need to. Eventually, you will run into a good player and they will catch you out of your double jump and combo you. No escape from that, unfortunately. Stick to the ground when you're trying to pressure and use spaced SH bairs in combination with platform bairs. Only dj to get to the top plaform, or any other situation where it is needed.

You probably already know this, but missing that many lcancels is NOT good. Work on your consistency.

Work on being more patient at the edge, and get into the habit of refreshing your ledge frames with upb stalls or djs at the right times. If you do it too early, it will wear off and you well get hit or be forced to get on the stage and let them back on too. Time the stalls and refreshes right so you can abuse the invincibility given and go through recovery moves with bairs and shines.


Besides that, your playstyle just seems a bit unrefined. Watch videos and keep playing against Marths, or against whatever other characters you want to use Fox on. The things you need to work on most is your combo game. Getting max damage out of grabs and not letting up pressure simply because you can't land a following hit. Learn to use uthrow uair to put yourself at an advantageous chasing position below your opponents so you can follow them from below for extra damage. Use nair and bair in combination with utilt to change your attack patterns up a bit and perhaps initiate a juggle or two.

I'll type more when I'm not so tired. :)

at around my level of play, fox is clearly the best character with no bad match ups. the worst he does is go even with falco and marth..
Fox beats Sheik but not by enough to make it an easy win. Good Sheiks can definitely take out good Foxes. I'd put that match-up at the same level of difficulty as Marth on certain levels. Jiggs is also pretty tough. Falco is the only other character that has to deal with the gay **** Jiggs can do out of grab and on edge-guard. Maining Fox means having to deal with defensive, one hit kill tactics.


Fox doesn't do too well against Samus. He does win the match-up, but I don't think by much.

-Mixing up block pressure into grabs, or dding into grabs are useless; throws lead into nothing unless you're near an edge (potential edgeguard)

-Even still, you can't edge-guard her sometimes because of the invincibility on the upB

-You can't attack Samus' shield AT ALL because simply hitting it puts you at a disadvantage and gives Samus free damage. UpB has 3 more frames of invincibility than shine does.

-She CCs nairs/bairs for a long, long time, and when you try to dair->shine..it whiffs sometimes because her stun animation from the dair moves her body back a bit.

-You have to resort to lasers only, and dair->shine -> usmash. This is assuming the dair to shine even combos because of the strange effect dair has on her. Again, if they see you coming and shield, you can't shield pressure like you can on most other characters because upB is stupid. She limits you to the point where only 3 things consistently work on her. (shine->usmash, laser, spaced bair) She doesn't have to change the way she plays at all until you start laser camping her.

lame

/endrant



how would you approach marth if he's spamming fair or tilts?
DD and run in during the lag on utilt/ftilt. If the Marth is using ftilt to poke he must be bad. Run in with shield is always good. Dash in CC->dtilt works when he tries to fair/dtilt. Leads to uair and other stupid stuff.
 

StealthyGunnar

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Could any1 help me with waveshining?! Argh! I can only get 2 in and then I accidentally illusion and kill myself! Is there any way I can practice this? I try in training mode but I keep Illusioning after the 2nd shine! It's like a bad habit...
 
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make sure you press down and b before trying to wavedash. if youre messing something up, just think about what order youre supposed to be pressing the buttons in, and what youre doing wrong, then just focus on being able to get the order down, then practice doing it faster.
 

SPAWN

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Does anyone know where I could find the frame data to figure out doing the different lengths for Fox's illusion. Stopwatches that count in 60fps are ****.

I can only do the shortest one consistently. The other ones I am all over the place and I have tried practicing the timing for a long time.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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There are 5 lengths, each done by pressing b and a different frame

frame 20 of fox's illusion is the shortest, and frame 24 is the longest
 

LumpyCPU...

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raynex, i think you just randomly posted a wall of text about why samus is good against fox.
lol and i see what you mean about it. i've heard people say samus is a soft counter to fox.

as far as puff goes, i think it looks VERY hard to consistently beat a good fox. sure it's made to look easy by certain puff mains, but not every puff is that good. i feel like fox has to make a mistake in order for puff's gayness to ruin fox's life.
 

Lovage

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Fox doesn't do too well against Samus. He does win the match-up, but I don't think by much.

-Mixing up block pressure into grabs, or dding into grabs are useless; throws lead into nothing unless you're near an edge (potential edgeguard)

-Even still, you can't edge-guard her sometimes because of the invincibility on the upB

-You can't attack Samus' shield AT ALL because simply hitting it puts you at a disadvantage and gives Samus free damage. UpB has 3 more frames of invincibility than shine does.

-She CCs nairs/bairs for a long, long time, and when you try to dair->shine..it whiffs sometimes because her stun animation from the dair moves her body back a bit.

-You have to resort to lasers only, and dair->shine -> usmash. This is assuming the dair to shine even combos because of the strange effect dair has on her. Again, if they see you coming and shield, you can't shield pressure like you can on most other characters because upB is stupid. She limits you to the point where only 3 things consistently work on her. (shine->usmash, laser, spaced bair) She doesn't have to change the way she plays at all until you start laser camping her.

i have some more earlier in this thread but i'd like to write a bit more about the samus matchup after playing hugs for like 15 hours this weekend.


general

overall, this is not one of fox's best matchups, i think it's even or very slightly in fox's favor. the advantage you all have is she's one of the least represented characters and there are very few players who really use her at a top level.


shield pressure and her up+b

it's possible to attack samus' shield but you have to be very very precise and clever. if you rush in like a noob you will eat an up+b every single time and possibly a dsmash if they land on a platform with you. your method of shield pressure should consist of hitting her with a well spaced nair or bair that hits LOW on their shield, and shining after. every samus has their comfort zone with up+b, so take note of how proficient they are with it, and shield pressure accordingly

if you did it correctly it's possible to bait out a whiffed up+b which can sometimes lead to a very damaging uair chain (it's commonplace to get 2-3 uairs at low-mid percent on samus.) be very aware though, shield pressure is NOT guaranteed, even if you do it nearly perfect, a good samus will be able to up+b you out of almost any unspaced attack.

baiting out up+b is a very important part of this matchup. you can do this by doing low aerials and shielding after, by nairing their shield and dashing away quickly, and by run-up shields.

edge guarding

edgeguarding IS viable, but i think most foxes don't know exactly what to do, because it's very difficult to pull off. basically, your first objective is to eliminate their grapple. one of the best ways to do this is to non-fastfalled weak bair off the stage and hit them right as they begin their grapple. if you get them, don't be fancy and try to shine after, just recover and get back to the edge ASAP. another way to get rid of their grapple is to refresh your ledge invincibility and attempt to shine them as they pull up to the edge. this is a bit harder and it depends on where they grapple'd the stage, so i prefer bairs.

once their grapple is out, they're forced to up+b. do NOT attempt to dsmash edge guard them. any samus worth their salt will sweetspot it, you will probably get hit by the end of the spin attack and get forced on the ground, or you will get fair'd -> dsmashed during your lag. low angled f-tilt is not a bad idea and is totally safe from punishment, but won't get you a kill.

what you want to do is combine the invincibility you get from grabbing the ledge with the bit of invincibility you get from standing up from the edge, and usmash (you can walk forward and dsmash if they're not at kill percent) them when they touch the ground. i guess it's similar to edgeguarding sheik, but it's very tough and you need a lot of experience with it or else you'll get hit with spin attack and get forced on your back.

lasers

lasers are very good in this matchup, samus is very slow in the air and you can get easy free damage when she's recovering or coming down from an uair. even though samus is tall, i still suggest sticking to single lasers over double lasers. single lasers let you be more mobile and make it harder for her to catch you. i suggest dash dancing and using a single laser to bait out her wavedash ftilt, and fulljumping over her with bair to punish.

grabs

grabs aren't THAT bad. you won't combo from them at all, but they're a good mixup because samus relies on her up+b out of shield so much, it's pretty easy to catch her in shield with grabs and get like 6-14 damage. uthrow is decent because sometimes you can read their double jump and get a back air in, but don't rely on it too hard because it's easy to get nair'd. dthrow is decent, but her tech roll is super long and quick so it's very hard to tech chase usmash. if you can be creative with it and score extra hits be my guest, but it's a risk. fthrow is probably your best bet. it forces samus slightly in the air, so sometimes they come down right after with a nair, which you can grab or usmash oos.

general

your overall strategy consists of reading her WD's back, shielding ftilts, using lasers to manipulate her movement, and not getting *****. also, if you can get samus on a platform, use everything you can to keep her in her shield, she's completely useless on platforms and you can get very easy bairs if you make her make a dumb move up there.

stages

best stage: pokemon stadium
good stages: battlefield, yoshi's story
ok stage: fountain, fd
bad stage: dreamland
 

Tomacawk

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lovage with a godly post
i hate the samus matchup a lot. you have to be SO patient--as patient as samus players are every game (WHY does anybody play that character??)
I've been ftilting a LOT lately. I'll crossup shffl dairs on shields, land outside of punish (and shine) range, and just land->ftilt their shield. it's insane pressure and really forces mistakes out of people.
also i posted this before but nobody said anything so i'll say it again ebcause i don't think people know about it. waveshine->dash attack combos on weegee
 

LumpyCPU...

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good read lovage. i never play against samus but overall it sound like i'd expect it to be; scary and advantageous at the same time.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Fox uthrow on samus, samus has 4 options

1. do nothing
2. jump
3. nair
4. bomb

the first three are all beat by uair (if you spaced correctly)

if they bomb, your uair will beat the bomb, but wont get you a hit. If you predict which way they are going after the bomb, you can get a uair. I think the safest thing a samus can do is bomb and not go to either side, but im sure a smart fox could find a way to punish it.
 

Lovage

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all samus has to do is float around with her space suit and mess up your uair spacing and kick you

just fthrow instead
 

LumpyCPU...

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yeah bro. uthrow uair on samus doesn't sound right.
maybe if i play against a samus i'll fill you in. ha
 

PK Webb

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When is it a good time to dashdance cuz i feel like i do it to often and would like to minimize the use of it...is standing and waitin a good sub for dashdancing???? When i see pros play they hardly use the it and i abuse it which may be the reason y i feel as if i have less cntrol over fox can sum1 help me out here
 

Fortress | Sveet

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standing in place just makes you less mobile and a lot more predictable. It works on some [bad] players tho
 

RaynEX

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He's probably watching Cactuar's "DD" tactics or something. Standing in place for prolonged periods of time may, for whatever reason, might seem like a good idea...but don't do it. Fox is better off running all over the place with his blinker on. Blinking things with frame 1 start-up and invincibility and comboing the blinker into itself for low percent kills and/or his strongest K.O. move which he can then follow up with aerial combos or even more blinker.

blinker = shine
 

ForeverOdd

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Shine OoS

I'm really having problems (obviously from the title) with Shining OoS. I really don't understand how it is done. I basically just need to know what buttons to hit, because I just cannot figure out how people do it.

Thanks a bunch!
 

ForeverOdd

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I kinda had a feeling that's how you do it, I just thought maybe everyone knew a secret I didn't. haha. Thanks for the info. I'll keep working on it.
 

voorhese

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I kinda had a feeling that's how you do it, I just thought maybe everyone knew a secret I didn't. haha. Thanks for the info. I'll keep working on it.
yah if you are spot dodging on accident then the secret is to JUMP FIRST..... i had that problem (not that i didnt try to jump, just when i tried to do it fast i pressed down B -> jump)
 
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