Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Eddie G]

Yuna is here and Sky is anti ban.

Good day. Good ****ing day.

Lol, Falcon's having such a fangasm. xD

 

[ShadowLink84]

But this is exactly what will happen. A lot of Meta Knight players will quit the game, most prominently Mew2King. He - and many other Meta Knight mains - have spent many many hours to become better with their character. These many many hours would poof into thin air and they'd have to start over all again. Mew2King stated he only likes to play Meta Knight because of the playstyle, and that no other characters appeal to him. I'm pretty sure that's also the reasoning for Dojo, Tyrant, and all the other Top Meta Knights. I would feel the same in their position.

"cry me a river and I'll get a canoe" That would be my response.
We do not withhold a ban simply because people will quit.
We do not care for the personal agendas of those people.

Yeah I know it sounds very jack *** like, but the personal feeling ad desires and goals do not matter. We ban Metaknight because he is hurting the game, not because someone cant deal with MK. Nor would we hold a ban from occurring just because people would quit if that character was banned.
If anything, it displays the immaturity of those people if they would quit a competitive game because their character was banned.
Top players are top players not just cause of their skill, but because they are flexible, and can meet the situation as it comes.

Its certainly understandable to be disappointed, or to feel at loss, hell I would be upset i suddenly I could not play Sonic in tournaments. I wouldn't qui smash, I would simply move on to another character.

Wait a second, why am I even addressing this part, it doesn't mean **** to the debate!

 

[Yuna]

Lol, you have absolutely no idea how Grand Finals really went down. Ally, while I don't discredit him because he is still able to do so, did not play M2K under normal circumstances. M2K had just woke up and had an energy drink before playing, while Ally had already been awake for a while.

You're johning for M2K now? Even if MK had won, Snake would still have taken 2nd. And really, only idiots would whine about Snake "only" taking 2nd instead of 1st. Everything I said still stands, even if we're proxy-johning now.

M2K and Ally always go even with each other. That alone discredit all of the "MK is too good!" BS.

 

[Falconv1.0]

No, as all the pro bans said, Ally is not a good example for anti ban, Yuna. Just because he's winning by being better means we shouldn't try to get better and stop whining.

 

[Eddie G]

So let's assume M2K won.

OH WAIT LOL.

People are "coincidentally" forgetting that these are both players. M2K and Ally have gone even in sets and beat each other. So if M2K happened to beat Ally this one time, does that make Meta Knight super broken and overcentralizing? Or does that make M2K a really good player?

Because as I see it now, if you say that MK would have overcentralized had M2K won, then by that logic, Snake is the best character because Ally won.

I also believe that Ally said he had also just woken up before GF, too. At any rate, they were probably both worn out and tired as crap. Don't john for M2K.

Blah blah BLAH! I'm done with the back and forth babble already.

I'm only telling you all what I heard from another source who was actually in the hotel room at the time. I'm not implying anything, lay off.

 

[momochuu]

Wow this guy definitely just johned for M2K. This thread is amazing.

 

[Sky`]

No, as all the pro bans said, Ally is not a good example for anti ban, Yuna. Just because he's winning by being better means we shouldn't try to get better and stop whining.

Well I disagree with that.

If we're looking to discuss a means of beating metaknight we should be looking at those who have overcome the same obstacle that we are facing every tournament.

Ally does help the Anti-Ban side. For the obvious reason that it can be done.

 

[Falconv1.0]

For once I agree with Kawaii Bunny.

DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU FOOLS HAVE DONE. ARGH.


Edit-Sky, it was sarcasm, because that was their bull**** point last night.

 

[Tony_]

Oh darn. Can't please everyone.

SBR makes the decision without these community polls: "Wow wtf, they didn't even ask the community, those elitists are just making up random crap back there and forcing it on us!"

SBR makes the decision with these polls: "They're just stirring up pointless arguments, since they'll just decide anyway."

And whether or not TOs would or wouldn't have a ruleset without the SBR doesn't mean you can't host tournaments as you please. If you stray completely off of SBR ruling, will many people travel to it or come? Probably not. But you have all the options you want as a tournament host.

If TO's want a good showing they HAVE to go by whatever the SBR says, regardless if its their decision or not. That's whats sad.

 

[ErciChewman]

EVERYONE STOP!!!!!!!! Michael Jackson already covered this topic clearly when he sang......

"And I told about equality
And its true,
Either you're wrong
Or you're right.

But, if you're thinkin about playing,
It dont matter if you're Meta-knight. Eee-hee"

Debate over.

 

[Zephil]

Wow this guy definitely just johned for M2K. This thread is amazing.

^I agree 100%

 

[tocador]

Wow this guy definitely just johned for M2K. This thread is amazing.

Sky's sig is amazing to :B.

And i really think MK in the end wont be banned :B, anyone want to make any bets?

 

[bobson]

Wow this guy definitely just johned for M2K. This thread is amazing.

I guess you weren't in the Revival of Melee thread.

 

[Zephil]

Sky's sig is amazing to :B.

And i really think MK in the end wont be banned :B, anyone want to make any bets?

OMG I just red it... is true is TOO EPIC

 

[Eddie G]

You're johning for M2K now? Even if MK had won, Snake would still have taken 2nd. And really, only idiots would whine about Snake "only" taking 2nd instead of 1st. Everything I said still stands, even if we're proxy-johning now.

M2K and Ally always go even with each other. That alone discredit all of the "MK is too good!" BS.

Fair enough. I was just being difficult for laughs.

However, let's shift focus for a second here. What about the mid level of play (which is arguably the bulk of the community)? Do the points that have been brought up about MK not apply to this specific part of the community? Your points are always excellent Yuna; but I feel that they mainly place emphasis on the highest levels of play or just the top of the top (Ally, M2K, etc.). Do you believe that this is the right way to go about making considerations and judgements?

 

[InfernoAce]

I don't think MK should be banned. Many people are working for strategies against MK. He isn't perfect. He CAN be beaten. Just lrn2matchup and you should at least have a chance. Still, MK is pretty good. <.<

 

[Palpi]

I will bet my life savings he won't be banned....in a heart beat.

 

[MarKO X]

lol.
Ally beats a couple of MKs with Snake, and now Snake is this godsend.

 

[Eddie G]

Wow this guy definitely just johned for M2K. This thread is amazing.

Correction: I was relaying information that I received from someone I know who was in the hotel room when they played. I know it's a john, but it's not coming directly from me. Oh wait, I forgot, we can't even describe situations during matches when it comes to this game because it automatically gets dismissed as johning. Lay off.

 

[AvaricePanda]

If TO's want a good showing they HAVE to go by whatever the SBR says, regardless if its their decision or not. That's whats sad.

But the way it is, you're making it sound like SBR is enforcing their rule on people so that they can't go to a tournament if it doesn't have their ruling.

Most competitive players on this site won't go to tournaments that stray far from SBR ruling because the SBR's ruleset is a good ruleset, and it's one that most players can agree on, or at the very least can think that there isn't much better that we can do. If you have a better idea for a ruleset to be used for competitive Brawl, go right ahead and tell me. This ruleset is just one that has worked for a lot of people playing the game, and they don't have qualms with it.

Also, look at Xyro's hobo tournaments in Houston. hobo16 had a good turn-out, and hobo17 is receiving quite a bit of hype. Do they follow SBR ruling? No, MK is banned. But are people still going to the tournaments? Yes.

 

[Yuna]

I can sleep easy tonight.

Yuna, forgive me, back when I was so scrub that I was pro-ban and I vehemently denied any of your posts, but now I have seen the light.

Zzzzzz...

I've always believed that there's hope for certain people (whilst simultaneously believing that many people, who shall remain unnamed, are beyond help). This is why I don't always go for the jugular. And even when I do, I still leave a (tiny) door left open for redemption.

It's actually quite funny how every single debate I've engaged in on SWF has turned out in "my" favour ("my" side always wins) and many of them start out with a vast majority of SWF:ers against me, ridiculing her and completely ignoring my very valid arguments and then a few months later, many of them will have turned around and are themselves repeating my arguments.

The journeys are long and hard-fought but at destination, I'm able to say "I told you so" to thousands. It kinda makes it all worth it.

I'm sorry, I was blinded by subjectivity and luxury, thinking that if MK was banned, things might be easier.

I guess I decided that from an objective logical perspective, he does not deserve to be banned by any means. =]

I rode the fence this long. I'm glad I came to a decision.

Whatever. Go over to the "Redeemed"-pile. You're now allowed to bask in the glory with the "We Knew It From The Very Beginning" crowd.

No, as all the pro bans said, Ally is not a good example for anti ban, Yuna. Just because he's winning by being better means we shouldn't try to get better and stop whining.

Obviously. Whining solves everything!

There should be a survey taken out among the pro-banners to see how many of them are Republicans and how many are Democrats or "Other" (if they're not American, then they are to identify themselves with the party they most agree with). I bet a disproportionate number of pro-banners would be Republicans ("We want to kill Obama's health care plan! But we have no alternate plan because we think it would be 'confusing' for people if we introduced a counter-bill!" & "The U.S. has the best health care in th world!" - Michael Steele).

 

[Palpi]

Regardless if hobo17 is receiving hype or not, banning MK is unfathomably stupid. Even if it is only for a tournament.

Yuna, I don't think suggestion of a democrat / republican poll would go over too well haha.

 

[Atlus8]

Why is there a poll for this if you guys are not actually gonna ban MK?! Seriously, this thread is a waste!

 

[Alus]

Fair enough. I was just being difficult for laughs.

However, let's shift focus for a second here. What about the mid level of play (which is arguably the bulk of the community)? Do the points that have been brought up about MK not apply to this specific part of the community? Your points are always excellent Yuna; but I feel that they mainly place emphasis on the highest levels of play or just the top of the top (Ally, M2K, etc.). Do you believe that this is the right way to go about making considerations and judgements?

Thats just like asking if it applies to the people that suck...which is also arguably a large part of the community...

Why is there a poll for this if you guys are not actually gonna ban MK?! Seriously, this thread is a waste!

So that people don't make "should MK be banned" threads?

 

[Colten]

lol.
Ally beats a couple of MKs with Snake, and now Snake is this godsend.

Cyphers are tasty

So if its agreed on to ban him on this poll, is that going to be the deciding vote? ​

 

[Eddie G]

Thats just like asking if it applies to the people that suck...which is also arguably a large part of the community...

Is your name Yuna?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Whatever. Go over to the "Redeemed"-pile. You're now allowed to bask in the glory with the "We Knew It From The Very Beginning" crowd.

Can I chill with you guys since I changed my mind fast!? =O

 

['V']

Mid-level play shouldn't matter in this debate. If Meta Knight does indeed dominate the mid-levels, then that only encourages the "get better" argument that the anti-ban side has already brought up. Stick to High-level performance, people.

 

[AvaricePanda]

There should be a survey taken out of people who play Smash in general who know ANYTHING about politics, and not the, "I kinda know a bit but I'm going to pretend like I'm an elitist awesome about politics," I mean actually know ANYTHING.

I doubt any side of the ban side really does, except for random individuals.

Also, Inui is a Republican and is very anti-ban. I'm not sure what being Republican or Democrat has to do with being pro-ban or anti-ban though.

@Palpi, I know it's stupid. I'm just saying that it is possible to stray slightly from S.B.R. ruleset and still have a popular tournament

 

[Falconv1.0]

Mid-level play shouldn't matter in this debate. If Meta Knight does indeed dominate the mid-levels, then that only encourages the "get better" argument that the anti-ban side has already brought up. Stick to High-level performance, people.

But whining is sooooooo much easier.

=/

 

[Xyro77]

Regardless if hobo17 is receiving hype or not, banning MK is unfathomably stupid. Even if it is only for a tournament.

HOBO 17 might break HOBO16(a meta banned event) turnout which broke HOBO 15(meta legal) turnout. I have proven that meta ban events bring more people to my events. Variety and being able to CP seems to be what makes the game fun. banning meta allows both of those things to happen


*votes pro ban*

 

[Falconv1.0]

Cool story Xyro.

In other news

GENESIS

 

[Dabuz]

candy: a good olimar will only be in a grabbable position like once or twice a match by snake against a good oli, and even then, olimar can still spotdodge/ pivot/ ect. to avoid the grab, ut doesn't change the matchup enough, then being able to consistently keep up with his rolls/ get up attacks isn't exactly easy and 100% reliable

 

[Sky`]

Whatever. Go over to the "Redeemed"-pile. You're now allowed to bask in the glory with the "We Knew It From The Very Beginning" crowd.

Now wait just a second there Queen of Smashboards!

It was obvious from the start that MK would never get banned. That much was always obvious, and I feel like I've stuck with my convictions from the start.

However, when I felt like being subjective, I simply implied that the game would be much easier with out MK.

But my firm belief is that he isn't broken enough to warrant a ban. If he was, he'd be out by now.

And Scene.

 

[ShadowLink84]

dissillusioned means the are NOT being realistic lol

*sensor goes off*

That sounds off.
Primarily beaus the prefix of dis would mean the removal of, or example to be disarmed.
So it would mean the removal of an illusion, to become more realistic and face reality.

*looks up definition*
Being disappointed with reality.
Beg dis-enchanted.

Soz, im weird.

debat hall is better

This.

the only reason those 5 mks place high is bc they travel more than other ppl......u say mk 1st alot b/c m2k travels everywhere..........it m2k didnt travel so much....those ppl that got 2nd or 3rd those tournies would of won...such as sk92's falco, adhd's diddy, allys snake, fictions wario, atomsk's DDD, meep and lains ICs......theres only ONE dominat mk in WC and thats tyrant....which isnt his fault hes a good player...and still doesnt win consistantly....theres only ONE dominant mk in the south and thats dojo....and the reason hes so dominant is bc theres ONLY 2 actual top players from texas..him and razer...and last time i checked razer went even with him...and dojo's even gotten 13th at apex
m2ks dominant bc....hes m2k...hes been dominant and every game and hes just the best player...judge is one of the best mks and places extremely high in his region yet he gets 9th at national tournys and at apex got 33rd...anti is dominant not bc his mk but bc hes extremely smart and a top player...top a match off m2k with snake....and is known for using tons of other characters/

Judge cannot really be consiered among the best if at national tournaments e isnt performing as well as dojo or M2k or tyrant.
I wouldn't include him if the national tournaments are showing low tournament placing.


Also, why would ADHD, Falco, Diddy and the other would have won? If they ran into the best MK and loss, clearly they would not have won when confronted by someone who is using the character to the full degree.

Also, you cannot use the argument of "m2k is dominant cause he is mk." he is still human, he still make mistakes, he still had to work his *** off to become skillful. Why make such a silly statement?

Also, I am only referring to national tournaments because local tournaments toend to be smaller and the level of skill not as high.

Hence my argument from earlier regarding those players and those characters.

yes thats true only 1 snake has happend to win a national tourny...but guess what?? only 1 mk has won a national tourny too...so thats 100% irrevelant...i listed anit twice b/c he mains both snake and mk...and his snake is just as good

True, but the difference being is that not only did that MK win, the other high level MK players also placed very high and were also of greater number than those who did not use MK at all.

It would be understandable if there were 3 other snake players taking top 3 or top 5.

Ally's win just seems like the exception currently because no one is really coming close to what he has done.

i believe most of the top players compete with them....i have yet to see one of those top mk playes completely dominate another player/

Well you don't have to get perfected by Akuma for it to remain a 100-0 match.
All that really matters is who won, not how close or how far they came to losing to the opponent.

mk only stayed on the top b/c of m2k....and now thats changed bc of ally.....there has not been many tournies where all the top mks and top snakes have been together...me personally am not afraid on mk and would only lose to m2k at this point....the only other encounter ive had with one of those top mks is dojo and i 2-0'd him in a MM and 2-1'd him in tourny

How has that changed?
If you look at the tournaments, they are STILL dominated by Metaknight. There is still a large gap between Snake and Metaknight in terms of tournament performance.

Also, your own personal experiences cannot really be used because if that experience does not match the majority, it can be considered as simply anecdotal evidence that is the exception.

snake does NOT have issues with neither DDD falco or rob

hmm okay.

oli: joke matchup...all u have to do is techchase...olis roll is SO BAD....its mad short and slow...u have so much time to react to where he rolls....techchasing him is the easiest thing in the world.....when he rolls behind u hes still in front of you! so yea...snake doesnt lose to oli

Woah wait a secod. I read up to here and as fine but then I got to Oli and was rather confused. Certainly Snake has the means and tools to grab and tech chase Oli. But Olimar's ability to acamp and space are superior to Snake in both speed and range.

Can you go into detail as to why it is so easy for Oli to get grabbed and *****? I saw Inui explain, but it pointed to the matchup still having the possibility of lightly disadvantage against snake due to Oli's tools. Not to say that was INui's intention bu my interpretaton.

dk: hes a limited character to the point that he cant do anything if snake camps him....gernade shield ruins everything for him...as long as u always have a gernade next to u u should win the matchup...plus all his kill moves are predictable

I agree with this, I never believed DK to have an advantage.

diddy: if you camp right again diddy loses...he cant do anything about gernades....snake can use banans better bc of jumpcanceld throws and his dash and motarslide...plus hes easily gimpable with a rising Dair

Wait wait.
Diddy's banana game is superior to Snake's. For one the glide length of Diddys i PERFECT for the bananas because it ensures he never slides too far or too short in which he cannot regain control o the banana.
Plus he can use jump canceled throws and his dasha ttack is much safer than Snakes.
Mortarsliding isnt really safe wth the bananas out, espeially considering we have seen Diddy's using single bananas to great effect in such situations where two is too difficult to utilize.

snake cannot get approach....ppl have 2 options...approach or dont approach...and if u dont approach...regardless of what your doing...snake will outplay you with his gernade game

What about Olimar? Or the fact you can catch the grenades? At which point you are forced to cook them and sields take care of that very well.
think you are ove estimating Snake's camping ability too much. I do believe his camping ability makes it difficult for characters to approach, but as we have seen in tournament play and based on the characters abilities, it can be deal with effectively though not safely.

i stick to what i said b/c its b/c of ppl that are too lazy to learn the matchup theres so many ppl that want mk banned...if more ppl took the time to learn and understand the matchup then there wouldnt so many dissillusioned ppl out there

I understand, I am certainly against the idea of someone voting if they do not understand the character and matchups. It poisons things and skews the results, I do not believe though that such a generalization is fair either.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I do hope that people don't believe that things will become easier for everyone with Metaknight gone. Most characters will initially benefit but it really depends on what characters become more popular overall. As I stated earlier on, I think the characters that will benefit the most will be Toon Link, Pit, Ice Climbers, King Dedede, Olimar, Pikachu, and Marth in most regions while probably half of the roster will just lose a really crappy matchup. Again, it depends on who becomes more popular. For example, if more Olimars come about, Ike would be in an even worse situation but if more Snakes come about, Ike won't be as screwed.

 

[Exceladon City]

I don't think MK should be banned. Many people are working for strategies against MK. He isn't perfect. He CAN be beaten. Just lrn2matchup and you should at least have a chance. Still, MK is pretty good. <.<

But I don't learn the lrn2matchup skill until level 55 and I'm at level 30. You have the TM? Honestly, though learning the match-up doesn't really help when you can get camped and/or planked and your character can't do a thing about it. I had never heard of air planking before until after Genesis. But like I said and like everyone at SCS said "It's Hopeless!"

 

[Tony_]

But the way it is, you're making it sound like SBR is enforcing their rule on people so that they can't go to a tournament if it doesn't have their ruling.

Most competitive players on this site won't go to tournaments that stray far from SBR ruling because the SBR's ruleset is a good ruleset, and it's one that most players can agree on, or at the very least can think that there isn't much better that we can do. If you have a better idea for a ruleset to be used for competitive Brawl, go right ahead and tell me. This ruleset is just one that has worked for a lot of people playing the game, and they don't have qualms with it.

Also, look at Xyro's hobo tournaments in Houston. hobo16 had a good turn-out, and hobo17 is receiving quite a bit of hype. Do they follow SBR ruling? No, MK is banned. But are people still going to the tournaments? Yes.

What I am saying is that the SBR is too controlling on the community as a whole. No other community that I can think of has a back room for a video game.

Xyro's tournaments follow the same philosophy; play the game this way for tournaments or no one will show up. Its stupid if you REALLY think about it.

 

['V']

Variety and being able to CP seems to be what makes the game fun.

Actually I think the additions of items make the game more fun. I could care less for that crap.

 

[AvaricePanda]

HOBO 17 might break HOBO16(a meta banned event) turnout which broke HOBO 15(meta legal) turnout. I have proven that meta ban events bring more people to my events. Variety and being able to CP seems to be what makes the game fun. banning meta allows both of those things to happen


*votes pro ban*

Because you're so forced to use MK with him existent, I mean why would anyone use a choice worse than him in the game? Ally, Anti, CO18, ADHD, Atomsk, DEHF, SK92, Fiction, Mango, Armada, Lambchops, HungryBox...they're all so stupid for not using the best character in their respective games!

And CPing is awesome! I love CPing pro Wario's like Hunger and Krystedez with my Marth that I've played for like a week. I mean, since the match-up is 6:4, I obviously don't need the precise spacing, zoning, knowledge of options, and other things that Marth mains need!

oh wait.

Also, what was the attendance for hobo16? Was it larger than hobo10, 11, 14, WHOBO, or other non MK banned tournaments...like....any other large regional?