Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[fkacyan]

The best ZSS in FL (one of the best in the country) pretty consistently beats our best Snake players (and we have good ones). Also I don't remember the last time Dazwa lost to a Snake player in his area (Fatal is in his region). He did lose to Candy at Apex, though.

The only ZSS players I have ever seen at national tourneys out of pools are Dazwa and Snakeee, and thus they are the only ones I tend to watch. I also have my own matchup experience.

And, like I said, matchups in this game come very much down to specific players and playstyles as well as characters. I took Sethlon to match 3 last stock in tourney, but I can't take my best friend's Falco past match 2 second stock.

 

[MarKO X]

How about if he becomes a really big problem in the future, we ban him then. OK?

why wait?
life is short, even though its the longest thing you do.

 

[tocador]

Dont ban MK =/.

If so, snake is going to dominate all the game, and then people will see the **** they made and then will un-ban MK, but by that time, our MK mains will prolly have quit smash, meaning Snake will still dominate and he will become the new MK.

 

[Falconv1.0]

twinkies

You almost could've swayed some idiots' votes.

Almost.

 

[ETWIST51294]

i never knew there were so many dissillusioned ppl on smashboards -_-

honestly not to be mean...they should not let noobs vote...b/c that have absolutely no idea what there talking about...making a drastic move like banning a character should only be considered on whats happening at the top level of play....not random ppl playing

at top level of play...there are VERY few mks winning....m2k, anti, dojo, tyrant, judge

o no! 5 ppl are good with mk?!?!?!?!

ally me razer anti afro hrnut
boom....just from the top of my head 6 ppl snakes

i can go FOREVER on how many top players there are for other characters

and besides...snake is just as good if not BETTER than mk....mk is just an easier character to play

so you wanna ban mk? ok then what
then snake is gonna **** everything...iono if ppl noticed yet or not but mk was the only character that MIGHT go even with him....snake has the advantage over EVERYONE

he wins against DDD, wario, oli (seriously? his easiest matchup), dk, diddy, falco......EVERYONE

if played right its impossible to approach him....and has the ability to outcamp every character

so quit complaining about losing to mk.....ur not losing bc hes mk....ur losing bc u suck so much that instead of trying to learn the matchup you go on smashboards and whine like a little *****

the end.


munch munch???

laxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is true.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The only ZSS players I have ever seen at national tourneys out of pools are Dazwa and Snakeee, and thus they are the only ones I tend to watch. I also have my own matchup experience.

And, like I said, matchups in this game come very much down to specific players and playstyles as well as characters. I took Sethlon to match 3 last stock in tourney, but I can't take my best friend's Falco past match 2 second stock.

WarpStatus and FadedImage made it out of pools at Genesis (and WarpStatus got 33rd, I don't know what Faded got). NickRiddle is amazing and could easily make it out of pools at a national.

 

[The 5th Horseman]

I'm sure he's not going to get banned...

To many people have picked MK up and started to get good with em.

Kinda seems pointless, but I voted for the ban.

 

[aeghrur]

You almost could've swayed some idiots' votes.

Almost.

He almost swayed your vote?

 

[MarKO X]

I'm sure he's not going to get banned...

To many people have picked MK up and started to get good with em.

Kinda seems pointless, but I voted for the ban.

Or, has mk picked up people and he started to get good with them?

 

[fkacyan]

WarpStatus and FadedImage made it out of pools at Genesis (and WarpStatus got 33rd, I don't know what Faded got). NickRiddle is amazing and could easily make it out of pools at a national.

I admit I haven't paid much attention to Genesis as of yet, and if somebody hasn't proven themselves then I don't particularly care what others think about them.

Also, Faded argued that the matchup was 60:40 Snake, last I checked.

 

[Falconv1.0]

He almost swayed your vote?

Hurr hurr.

lrn2troll better, be less cheesy

 

[Melomaniacal]

Or, has mk picked up people and he started to get good with them?

That's deep, man.

 

[The 5th Horseman]

Or, has mk picked up people and he started to get good with them?

He's good enough to do that.

 

[UberWatts]

i know hes broken, alot of characters are broken though so if they do ban him why stop there why not ban snake and so on

 

[Red Arremer]

Or, has mk picked up people and he started to get good with them?

He's a demon. RAWR.

 

[brinboy789]

scrub central

 

[Falconv1.0]

i know hes broken, alot of characters are broken though so if they do ban him why stop there why not ban snake and so on

What were you reading during this entire thread all the other ones.

Good God.

 

[ShadowLink84]

i never knew there were so many dissillusioned ppl on smashboards -_-

Wouldn't disillusioned mean they are much more realistic? I dont remember the word definition hence why I ask.

honestly not to be mean...they should not let noobs vote...

I agree. Debate hall is better.

at top level of play...there are VERY few mks winning....m2k, anti, dojo, tyrant, judge

o no! 5 ppl are good with mk?!?!?!?!

The issue though is that those 5 people tend to place higher and better than others a consistent amount.
In fact, so very consistent that it makes up over 20% of the tournament results when you include both national and local.
Hey also take up the most spots at national tournaments by a noticeable amount.

The fact that only 5 people are consistently ****** tournaments, may imply that the other players simply do not use MK at as high a skill level, or feel there would be stigma for using the character.

Too many ways to take this.

ally me razer anti afro hrnut
boom....just from the top of my head 6 ppl snakes

one of which, iirc, has managed to win 2 national tournaments. Only one.
Let alone that they do not make up as much of the results as the MK's do.
Also you listed anti twice. @_@

i can go FOREVER on how many top players there are for other characters

You can, but can you name how many of them compare to those MK players in terms of results as well?

and besides...snake is just as good if not BETTER than mk....mk is just an easier character to play

The fact that MK has managed to remain in the lead in terms of tournament behavior tears up that argument.
If Snake was just as good or better than MK, he would not have suhc an incredible gap between himself and MK in terms of tournament results.

Otherwise, we would see Snake players taking up more spots, and winning more national tournaments.

Snake certainly has the tools to deal with MK himself, but there are several characters who can deal with him.

so you wanna ban mk? ok then what
then snake is gonna **** everything...iono if ppl noticed yet or not but mk was the only character that MIGHT go even with him....snake has the advantage over EVERYONE

What? If I recall correctly, Snake tends to have issues with DDD, and ROB and Falco. Do correct me if I am wrong I do know for surre though that overall, MK's amtchups are superior and that Snake does suffer disadvantaged matchups.

It cannot be said he is as good or better than MK.

he wins against DDD, wario, oli (seriously? his easiest matchup), dk, diddy, falco......EVERYONE

Can you explain this please?
From what i recall, the first three do well and have ana dvantage, while the latter three he goes even with.

Where has MK has an advantage on everyone except for Snake who is arguably even.

if played right its impossible to approach him....and has the ability to outcamp every character

What do you mean by played right? What about the options of other characters?
Rephrase your statement please.

so quit complaining about losing to mk.....ur not losing bc hes mk....ur losing bc u suck so much that instead of trying to learn the matchup you go on smashboards and whine like a little *****
the end.
munch munch???

laxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I would endorse if you were slapped with a rubber chicken for this, seriously, the whole "stop whining about losing to MK." is just blatant trolling considering it has absolutely NOTHING to do with MK being ban worthy or not.

This comes up way too often and only serves to create more tension, none of which actually benefits anti-ban's argument nor aids in establishing any means to end the debate.

 

[Eddie G]

Hurr hurr.

lrn2troll better, be less cheesy

It's better than reading your oh-so-predictable comments.

1. Make your point
2. throw in added insult
3. generalization
4. another insult

rinse and repeat.

 

[aeghrur]

Hurr hurr.

lrn2troll better, be less cheesy

I seriously thought that was your implication.
You sounded like you liked twinkies. o_o

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Mr. Game and Watch would be hurt if there was a huge increase in Snake, Marth, and Toon Link players but would be gravy if there were an increase in Olimars, Ice Climbers, and King Dedede players.

Let me try this again.

Mr. Game & Watch would be gravy if there were an increase in Olimars

Are you joking? Olimar is even for G&W at best, very realistically I could see this as slight Olimar favor. A good Olimar is very hard for Mr. Game & Watch to fight; he scares me every bit as much as Meta Knight does. Granted, Mr. Game & Watch is an extremely good character who can win in every matchup (all the good characters are able to beat each other), but more Olimar does not help him at all.

The funny thing is that a Meta Knight ban would really help me personally just because it would screw over a few of the best players in my region. I'm very opposed to banning him on philosophical grounds, the same grounds I oppose bans against infinites, planking, or a wide variety of unusual but perfectly fair stages (such as Norfair and Distant Planet).

I still don't think my thorough refutation of the pro-ban argument in the OP really got full appreciation. I definitely don't agree with the sentiments that the reason to vote pro-ban is because there's better argumentation on its side.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972439&postcount=946

It's a shame my refutation is doomed to be buried...

As a last point, a BIG POINT PEOPLE NEED TO READ. This is indeed unprecedented among 2d fighters, banning a character as good as Meta Knight. The only other characters who have ever been banned in 2d fighters were all better than Meta Knight, usually WAY better than Meta Knight (like Super Turbo Akuma). Characters on Meta Knight's level aren't even uncommon, and they've never been banned (SFIV Sagat and GGXX:AC Eddy says hi). People keep claiming that a ban isn't radical, but it's obviously extremely radical. Even if you support a ban (though I don't think you should), you have to admit that there is absolutely no precedent among 2d fighters (which is what Smash Bros is) for such a ban (I don't really know much about 3d fighters other than that the Soul Calibur community is scrubby with character bans so that's why I don't bother to talk about them, just FYI).

Hmm, I had some amazing post in one of the older MK ban topics showing how many characters this year have won major tournaments (90+ entrees) by themselves or placed top 8 and the top 8 potion was something like 2/3 of the cast with 8 characters winning by themselves (8 is a lot more than 1!). Maybe I'll have to dig it up and update it.

 

[RedyBz]

vote pro ban is you support life, liberty and twinkies

This.


Can't believe some say Metaknight isnt broken...unbelievable.

 

[UberWatts]

What were you reading during this entire thread all the other ones.

Good God.

i wasn't reading i was throwing out what i thought about snake and the ice climbers

 

[Falconv1.0]

You know, there are good players on M2K and Ally's level not named M2K and Ally.

>_<

And who the **** cares, you're making it so easy to just say 'get better', because apparently the argument now is that since you cant get to Ally's level with a character who goes even with MK, or anywhere close to that, MK should be banned. That wont change ANYTHING, all it will be is a big **** YOU to MK players. What the **** is the point of a ban if it wont actually change ANYTHING? SO YOU FEEL A LITTLE BETTER WHEN YOU LOSE TO A DIFFERENT 6/4 MATCH UP?

ARGH.

Why did no one respond to this *unless I missed the response. =/

@aeghrur-No, the point was that due to him mentioning that if you like twinkies you should be pro ban, his statement failed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Falcon:

It's not about how I feel about losing to MK, lol.

 

[AvaricePanda]

apparently every time it gets said.



but there is evidence.



but you said that it wouldn't.



there is evidence that he is broken, otherwise this thread (and the three before it) wouldn't have existed.......

What evidence? You mean air-camping and planking, which other characters can do, and it's something that's been known for a year but not dominated recent tournaments at all, so there's no evidence of it being used in the future? Or the other arbitrary generic statements you made of MK that everyone knows?

why wait?
life is short, even though its the longest thing you do.

Why not wait?

What if you're wrong?

What if we banned MK, and he wouldn't have gotten any better than he currently is, and other characters got some random techs that propelled them forward in their meta-games? What do you do then? Reverse the ban? Say to the people who quit their main for half a year, "Sorry, we were wrong and acting pre-emptively, re-learn your main again lols!"

What if we banned everything pre-emptively like that, because it had a CHANCE to be broken? What if we banned Sheik in the early days of Melee because she was a very good character, or Marth in MLG days because he had the best tournament results, or Fox in any days of Melee because he had an insane tech-skill curve that might be mastered and used with a perfect mental game, and MIGHT be overpowering?

 

[etecoon]

What? If I recall correctly, Snake tends to have issues with DDD, and ROB and Falco. Do correct me if I am wrong I do know for surre though that overall, MK's amtchups are superior and that Snake does suffer disadvantaged matchups.

DDD and Olimar really, maybe Pikachu and ZSS, but really aside from DDD there's no one universally agreed to be beyond even with him, and a lot of people say even on that now too.

 

[aeghrur]

Why did no one respond to this *unless I missed the response. =/

@aeghrur-No, the point was that due to him mentioning that if you like twinkies you should be pro ban, his statement failed.

So you don't like twinkies either eh?
Sad day for America when people start not liking twinkies.

 

[Isatis]

So you don't like twinkies either eh?
Sad day for America when people start not liking twinkies.

That depends, pro ban side has twinkies and the anti ban side has tastycakes...both are appealing.

 

[Falconv1.0]

So you don't like twinkies either eh?
Sad day for America when people start not liking twinkies.

Barely anyone likes twinkies. I think they're alright, you're missing the point like a pro, gewd stoof.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Barely anyone likes twinkies. I think they're alright, you're missing the point like a pro, gewd stoof.

Stop provoking him. Just ignore it.

 

[stingers]

That depends, pro ban side has twinkies and the anti ban side has tastycakes...both are appealing.

oh my god i ****ING LOVE TASTYCAKES

HEY ANTI BAN I VOTED NO GET AT ME

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I'm part of the pro-ban.

I really feel like it should be a temporarily ban than permanent.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Wow... this thread is now AWESOME.

EDIT: Wait... it just got slightly worse. ^ Don't bring up that argument, it's a terrible one.

 

[Steel]

Stop the spam.

 

[Cook]

i never knew there were so many dissillusioned ppl on smashboards -_-

honestly not to be mean...they should not let noobs vote...b/c that have absolutely no idea what there talking about...making a drastic move like banning a character should only be considered on whats happening at the top level of play....not random ppl playing

at top level of play...there are VERY few mks winning....m2k, anti, dojo, tyrant, judge

o no! 5 ppl are good with mk?!?!?!?!

ally me razer anti afro hrnut
boom....just from the top of my head 6 ppl snakes

i can go FOREVER on how many top players there are for other characters

and besides...snake is just as good if not BETTER than mk....mk is just an easier character to play

so you wanna ban mk? ok then what
then snake is gonna **** everything...iono if ppl noticed yet or not but mk was the only character that MIGHT go even with him....snake has the advantage over EVERYONE

he wins against DDD, wario, oli (seriously? his easiest matchup), dk, diddy, falco......EVERYONE

if played right its impossible to approach him....and has the ability to outcamp every character

so quit complaining about losing to mk.....ur not losing bc hes mk....ur losing bc u suck so much that instead of trying to learn the matchup you go on smashboards and whine like a little *****

the end.


munch munch???

laxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

lolwut? Only five good MK players? I think you may have missed some, like DSF, Infinity, Domo and teh_spamerer just to name a few. Seriously don't try to argue that more Snakes are placing than are MKs. Just look at Ankoku's thing.

Also, Olimar def outcamps Snake.

 

[MarKO X]

end this debate side has steak.

come and get it.

 

[fkacyan]

lolwut? Only five good MK players? I think you may have missed some, like DSF, Infinity, Domo and teh_spamerer just to name a few. Seriously don't try to argue that more Snakes are placing than are MKs. Just look at Ankoku's thing.

Also, Olimar def outcamps Snake.

Spam plays like every character in the game.

 

[stingers]

if you look at the results of the poll so far...

there are 13 purple names on the ban side (if you count chibo), 11 purple names on the don't ban side. with the 2 extra ban votes from the community poll, that makes the count 15-11. there needs to be 2/3 difference to ban, which means that ban would need at least 6 more votes while the don't ban would have to stay the same.

and i somehow doubt every SBR member that hasn't voted yet will go to the Ban side, so...we might as well just close this thing now

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Let's look at this.

S Tier
Meta Knight
Snake
Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede

A tier
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby

B tier
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Pit
Donkey Kong

This is typically the high tier characters - mid/high.

People really like to play as the top character. THe easier to play the better. MK usage is rather large. His MUs are barriers to many characters that are high tier. Typically in the A and B range. The ones in the S tier are typically the characters that will place above or slightly below MK due to evenish MUs. The rest of A are typically beaten out by MK usage and facing one earlier on or a 2nd time means they won't rise through the losers section to make it to the top 8. But a lot of A mains can beat out the S tier characters in some specific match up. G&W/Marth beat Falco. ICs, Olimar can beat out DDD. SNake is beaten by Rob, DDD, and olimar.

Now if MK was eliminated, Snake domance would increase, but the variations would become a lot more varied. Now one can no longer go to MK to cover a poor MU. You now have a situation similar to melee. Many characters can CP each other well. With increased Snake usage comes the possibility for people to decide to main either Rob, DDD, Olimar, and ZSS that will give them and advantage against Snake. Falco is one of the better choices against these 4 characters. So Snake/Falco combo could handle these characters well. After that, you can have a Marth being used to counter Falco, and go even with Snake. But there are so many possible main/seconds that one can use.

So simply banning MK could really cause a variation in the tournament results. Plus, it might make people less relient on a single character.