Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Red Arremer]

Spadefox.

We are now on our FOURTH POLL. The members of smash boards are helplessly floundering while awaiting the decision of one group of elitists.

The past polls all haven't gotten a conclusive result. Each and every poll ended up with less than 10% lead (always around 5-7ish) in favour of the ban.
That's quite a small amount for such a big decision like banning a whole character.
Every 2.5% lead of this public poll will be 1 more vote for the winning side, additionally to a basic 1 vote for the win in general. That's 4+1 votes if you have a 10% lead. That's 8+1 votes for 20% lead.

You can pretend as much as you want that the SBR is not some sort of elite tyranny of players, but when it boils down to it, the fact that no TOs, even those that favor the ban of MK, have yet to try and get rid of him because the SBR hasn't okay'd it is a direct reflection on the mindset of the community.

If Meta Knight doesn't get banned by the SBR, the regions that have huge problems with him (apparently Texas and WC) probably will ban him anyway.
If Meta Knight DOES get banned by the SBR, the regions that don't want to ban Meta Knight (EC and Europe, mainly) will not ban him regardless.

The only thing that will get help with a decision is the neutral regions and TOs that don't really care.

 

[Hobobloke]

The melee community interfeering is pretty lame, why ruin it for people who actually play the game and want a fair vote.

Do what we do down here if someone picks MK keep yelling at them calling them a meta***/tier ***** etc till they change or commit suicide. Whatever happens first.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

SOrry ampharos, it was difficult for me to do the double quotes, and when i got down to the latter parts i forgot what part of the pro-ban side you were mentioning, making it very difficult for me to respond, but I thought i did well...oh well.

Anyway, I'm done with this, i'll see how it plays out.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Spadefox, can you answer my question from the last page?

I'll re-post it:

How many people are in the SBR?

 

[kackamee]

This poll doesn't mean much. I mean, if it splits even but SBR all says ban MK, then he'll be banned. The only way this will actually matter is if the poll is is it's radically won by one side.

If the half the club wanted sandwiches, and half the club wanted pizza, but the club master(s) wanted Pizza, they'd have pizza.

Not sure if this helps but I mean, if enough people want anti-ban, it will happen.

PRO-BAN

 

[etecoon]

Do what we do down here if someone picks MK keep yelling at them calling them a meta***/tier ***** etc till they change or commit suicide. Whatever happens first.

I personally would get off on this kind of negative attention, normally I'd go more snake but I might even be inspired to just use MK the whole time : )

 

[Anth0ny]

Wow, Brawl is such a bad competitive game. This whole discussion really makes me realize it :s

Can't we all just play Melee in peace? We wouldn't have to worry about any of these stupid discussions :/

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The melee community interfeering is pretty lame, why ruin it for people who actually play the game and want a fair vote.

Because they're pricks. They think it's funny.

And we have no way of stopping them.

 

[SephirothSmiley]

If you're right, then why should you care?
Like, seriously, if MK IS banned, and then people start saying "Snake is broken," then we will have to go through this whole, painful process all over again. Only, wayyy less people will think he needs to be banned, and there will be little to no chance of Snake being banned at all.
Besides, he has a near even matchup with Link. If that doesn't tell you something...

And, you are addressing the community in general, which is exactly who is posting on this poll. You're talking over our heads here as if we're all stupid. If you're going to make a point, then please start pointing out a problem, then handing out reasons for it, straight to us, not over our heads.

Sorry, but it was not my intention to talk "over you'r heads as if you were all stupid", i was just expressing what lots of French player think about this "Ban Mk, he is too good for brawl" situation :s.

I don't think banning MK will solve the dominance problem.
Concerning the Link - Snake MU, try to counter snake with Link, the next match will be impossible x). I know you wanted to point out the fact that Snake has an even match up with a Low tier, but i was talking about the brokenness of characters, their moves or what make them broken.
I'll take for example the chaingrabs/standing/infinite of DDD, the utilit of Snake... And lots of other things that can make a character broken :o.

I personnaly think it's far too soon to think about banning a character. If a character like Falco/Shiek/Fox would have been banned at Melee so early, the game may not have been so enjoyable .

 

[Red Arremer]

How many people are in the SBR?

Around 100 members. Though there are some rather inactive members and members that have stated that they will not vote in the poll because of various reasons (myself being an example).
I predict around 50-60 voting SBR members.

Can't we all just play Melee in peace? We wouldn't have to worry about any of these stupid discussions :/

I've quit playing Melee because apparently a lot of Melee players love to make fun of people with physical handicaps.

 

[Hobobloke]

Really I had alot of respect for the melee community before this despite the fact I don't play the game, now though...

 

[Wrath`]

The pro-ban side hit the mid class play on the head, that is exactly how it is here in my city. We even almost beat the exclusive meta-knight player. I was almost going to vote no, but the argument that the pro-ban had was just much more powerful that the anti-ban

 

[pwiito]

pro ban because it will make things easier for me

 

[Teran]

Can't we all just play Melee in peace? We wouldn't have to worry about any of these stupid discussions :/

No, because unfortunately people might prefer to play one over the other. Even worse is that they have a CHOICE to play whatever.

Smash in general is competitively flawed, so it's no biggie.
Yes, that include Melee.

 

[Xyro77]

Pro-ban is the way to go.

SO MANY GOOD things will happen once meta is gone.

A CP system will actually work.
Variety in tourney play/results.
No more of "dang. he beat my main. ill switch to meta and take the rest of the set"



we(as players) will be free.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Around 100 members. Though there are some rather inactive members and members that have stated that they will not vote in the poll because of various reasons (myself being an example).
I predict around 50-60 voting SBR members.



I've quit playing Melee because apparently a lot of Melee players love to make fun of people with physical handicaps.

1. OK so basically we, the community, are leaving this decision up to 50-60 people. How many people are active in this community? Let's say anywhere from 7,000 to 10,000. Probably less, but it's just an estimate. Either way, those 50-60 people are less than 1%. So we, the community, 99.9% of the community (the rest being SBR) only get 10% of this vote. This poll is trivial. Why don't you people get this?

Making alt's doesn't do anything! Getting all your friends to vote doesn't do anything! Essentially, the future of the community rests in the hands of 50-60 people. I hope all of you know this.

2. That's horrible

 

[Deadweight]

Pro Ban's arguments were well thought out, well delivered and had definitive evidence.
Anti-ban was a joke. Praxis tore it up ;o

 

[East]

If the half the club wanted sandwiches, and half the club wanted pizza, but the club master(s) wanted Pizza, they'd have pizza.

Not sure if this helps but I mean, if enough people want anti-ban, it will happen.

PRO-BAN

^This. In truth, the SBR's decision shouldn't be the end all, be all. It should come down to the TO's and the way they run their tournaments that will decide metaknights fate.

The SBR did not decide on "no item tournaments". It happened before the SBR did anything more significant than make tier lists. It was decided because there were conflicting TOs arguing about whether items were legitimate or not, and they held tournaments under what they saw fit.

In short, the SBR could say that Homerun Bats on very high is the new tournaments standard, but if no TO's enforce it, then who cares what the SBR says? There doesn't need to be an official statement from the SBR for people to ban mk in tourneys. If TO's do it themselves then like the conflicting arguments regarding items long ago, the side that shows the greater support will win.

That wasn't really in short, was it?

 

[MattDotZeb]

Because they're pricks. They think it's funny.

And we have no way of stopping them.

Despite the fact it is kind of funny we actually do have a say in this community and some of us play both games.
I'm more casual towards Brawl but my opinion can still count.

The Melee and Brawl communities are not entirely different and either can influence the other. I've read the arguments plenty of times in various threads including this one, but still I'm anti-ban.
Why? Its not really the same as the anti-ban argument as much as I just think it's really ****ing stupid we have to go around banning characters to help us win. I know the advantages MetaKnight has but the pro-ban community is basically giving up when it comes to that and it's just dumb.

It's like sitting down to play somebody better than you in tournament and going "O LOL I CANT WIN I FORFEIT"

Thats my opinion, if you want to attempt to sway it go ahead but I'm not banning MetaKnight at my tournaments.

 

[Jolteon]

The essence of it. Not what was actually said (although this does help in the essence...but so does what it isn't said).

It's criteria, what's actually said is key as it's a set of guidelines they are setting out.

I already realized that both sides are pretty biased. I just happened to notice less of it on the pro-ban side.

I'm sure either one of us could be horribly wrong without extensive analysis, and I feel that you don't want to go through that just as much as I don't.

They explained the logic behind judging the other Smash games to this one and what you should and shouldn't judge (such as the 'growing and evolving' statement, in which case the game has been studied to a point that finding anything absolutely huge for characters to drastically change up match-ups is virtually impossible).

I think the only valid point they made about differentiating the Smash games is their point about Melee and Sheik. But really, death combos in 64 somehow make Pikachu different? That's completely irrelevant. (I can't quite remember if this was made in the OP or later on, forgive me if it was a point later made)

As for the growing and evolving statement, it is claimed that MK has no weaknesses. This is false. What about a lack of projectile, slow aerial mobility, light weight? The common counter argument I see to this is that MK has other properties that make up for this, but that is already admitting that it is a weakness. Also, I really doubt that after such a short time since the game has been released you can really say characters are already reaching their peak in match-ups, no one can predict the future.

They basically put everything out there that is logical and relevant.

Point 2, possibly 6, point 7 and 9 are all subjective. Point 3 is exaggerated, his recovery is extremely good, but not "perfect". Point 8 is based on skewed results, we already have several accusations of rigged voting and multiple accounts.

Anti-ban, however, from what I noticed made a few points for argument that are almost redundant when considering the way the game has been torn apart for the sake of competitive play. That adds to my essence of bias, as it makes the side seem desparate for information to support their claim.

Could you back up the points you think are redundant if called out on it? I know I could for the points I just called out as inadequate. The fact that I see 4 of pro-ban's points as subjective alone shows the bias I think it holds.

And don't get me started about their claim for Argument #4. Saying what they said about that situation was ridiculous.

Do tell.

 

[etecoon]

Pro Ban's arguments were well thought out, well delivered and had definitive evidence.
Anti-ban was a joke. Praxis tore it up ;o

How so? He used a lot of exaggerated statistics and erroneous subjective appeal to emotion. Not that anti bans argument was perfect either, I find both sides very flawed because the people making both arguments are conceited and will say anything to get their own way, not many honest people on either side.

 

[Teran]

1. OK so basically we, the community, are leaving this decision up to 50-60 people. How many people are active in this community? Let's say anywhere from 7,000 to 10,000. Probably less, but it's just an estimate. Either way, those 50-60 people are less than 1%. So we, the community, 99.9% of the community (the rest being SBR) only get 10% of this vote. This poll is trivial. Why don't you people get this?

Making alt's doesn't do anything! Getting all your friends to vote doesn't do anything! Essentially, the future of the community rests in the hands of 50-60 people. I hope all of you know this.

That sounds like standard government practice if you ask me.
Every time they pass a new bill, do the people get a say? No, it's the few people in the positions of power that get it.

It's the same with the SBR. You may not like it, but they're basically the governing body for the rules in competitive Brawl. Personally, I don't see any difference between that and anything else irl.

 

[tnt]

could we ban snake while were at it. how about deded because they domunate tounys?

if we ban meta will eventaly be baning everyone else 2

 

[Hobobloke]

Despite the fact it is kind of funny we actually do have a say in this community and some of us play both games.
I'm more casual towards Brawl but my opinion can still count.

The Melee and Brawl communities are not entirely different and either can influence the other. I've read the arguments plenty of times in various threads including this one, but still I'm anti-ban.
Why? Its not really the same as the anti-ban argument as much as I just think it's really ****ing stupid we have to go around banning characters to help us win. I know the advantages MetaKnight has but the pro-ban community is basically giving up when it comes to that and it's just dumb.

It's like sitting down to play somebody better than you in tournament and going "O LOL I CANT WIN I FORFEIT"

Thats my opinion, if you want to attempt to sway it go ahead but I'm not banning MetaKnight at my tournaments.

He wasn't saying every melee player is a prick for voting, just the ones that don't play or care about brawl and are merely voting to **** things up for the people who care. I'm proban but if anti-ban wins I'll accept that all I want is it to be a clean vote.

 

[hinkage]

Pro-ban is the way to go.

SO MANY GOOD things will happen once meta is gone.

A CP system will actually work.
Variety in tourney play/results.
No more of "dang. he beat my main. ill switch to meta and take the rest of the set"



we(as players) will be free.

The CP system works now
It will still be all top/high tiers
I'd like to see you just randomly switch to MK and beat someone halfway decent. MK is the best secondary statistically, but you can't JUST sub out MK, you won't win with him unless that person sucks. MK does require practice, and if you JUST have MK to defeat say, Olimar, and you read the matchup then that's no different from JUST have Marth for that.

I could lose vs a DK and say "Dang he beat my main. I'll switch to D3 and take the rest of the set." Does that break the CP system? Or should we just ban D3?

 

[Overclassed]

That sounds like standard government practice if you ask me.
Every time they pass a new bill, do the people get a say? No, it's the few people in the positions of power that get it.

It's the same with the SBR. You may not like it, but they're basically the governing body for the rules in competitive Brawl. Personally, I don't see any difference between that and anything else irl.

I do. Voting.

 

[Flipstar]

That sounds like standard government practice if you ask me.
Every time they pass a new bill, do the people get a say? No, it's the few people in the positions of power that get it.

It's the same with the SBR. You may not like it, but they're basically the governing body for the rules in competitive Brawl. Personally, I don't see any difference between that and anything else irl.

The thing is, the people in these government positions are voted in by the people.

Members of the SBR aren't voted in by community members, at least to my knowledge.

 

[Teran]

I can. Voting.

Just don't complain if the SBR goes anti ban.

@ Flipstar: Perhaps not, but it's easy to see why people aren't voted in by the general community.

 

[Xyro77]

The CP system works now
It will still be all top/high tiers
I'd like to see you just randomly switch to MK and beat someone halfway decent. MK is the best secondary statistically, but you can't JUST sub out MK, you won't win with him unless that person sucks. MK does require practice, and if you JUST have MK to defeat say, Olimar, and you read the matchup then that's no different from JUST have Marth for that.

I could lose vs a DK and say "Dang he beat my main. I'll switch to D3 and take the rest of the set." Does that break the CP system? Or should we just ban D3?

the cp system does not work.

meta has NO counters(by char or stage). a BEST its even, hes NEVER at a disadvantage.
and ive seen/heard of several occasions where a persons main lost but he switched to meta and won the set.


and as for your last moronic comment. you cp ddd. by stage and/or character(pika/falco/ics). COMMON SENSE.

 

[KevinM]

as you know some melee guys have been creating alts and voting no and convincing there friends but please do not pm mod marc i already did, i think its pretty good xD




please melee noobs get pwned


?

This is actually really funny because you have no idea what you're talking about. How is it "obvious" that over 80 percent of the community actually voted to ban MK, hell I have placed high in brawl tournaments when I'm primarily a melee player while you yourself have probably never gone to a tournament and I'm anti ban.

So if there is anyone whom shouldn't be voting, it's you, stop whining because Melee players are voting no. We're not doing it because we're out to get you, we believe that banning MK is a bad move for brawl for various reasons. There was never any criteria for voting on this poll, otherwise people like you and the hundreds of other members who have yet to visit a tournament would not be allowed to vote before you were able to get your feet wet in a competitive "read this as something like a regional instead of just a 10 man tournament, if you even been to that" environment.

please brawl noobs get pwned?

****.
Brawl is so ****ing ******** you have to start banning a character so you don't lose.
Quit *****ing or start playing Melee, ****.

If the community decides to ban Meta Knight I refuse to do so at all future Mass Madness tournaments.

Also this is the flaw, tournament hosts are still going to do this,

Tell me that if he's voted to be banned would Xyro suddenly unban him in texas.

No.

 

[Terra~]

Teran always seems to have the right answer at the right time. So epic.

 

[Kinzer]

If Meta Knight doesn't get banned by the SBR, the regions that have huge problems with him (apparently Texas and WC) probably will ban him anyway.
If Meta Knight DOES get banned by the SBR, the regions that don't want to ban Meta Knight (EC and Europe, mainly) will not ban him regardless.

The only thing that will get help with a decision is the neutral regions and TOs that don't really care.

Huh?

I didn't know West Coast were all a bunch of whiners, sure that may be true, but I hear nothing of TOs getting rid of MKs, it's just the people who want the easy money without having to pick up MK themselves or get better at the game, and I'm not sure why TX A.K.A. Southwest have him banned, you sure that's not just Xyro Xytrolling the region?

How silly it is though that people take the False SBR as government, sure they make some nice guidelines but I thought everybody knew we don't have to follow their rules entirely.

Let me tell you, here in Vegas we play with a timer of 7 minutes, the norm is 8, is it not?

D***, we're rebels.

 

[Minwu]

After watching the Genesis Grand Finals, I had a hard time believing money was on the line at all.

 

[Overclassed]

Just don't complain if the SBR goes anti ban.

@ Flipstar: Perhaps not, but it's easy to see why people aren't voted in by the general community.

I don;t get it.

I said the difference was Voting. IRL, we give all people the right to vote. SBR is self-appointed.

That seems like a pretty legit difference.

And aren't you high and mighty, proclaiming who is and is not fit to help choose the people who would be deciding guidelines for whole community?

 

[Xyro77]

Tell me that if he's voted to be banned would Xyro suddenly unban him in texas.

No.

yes. Meta will stay banned in my city untill further notice. no matter what side wins the vote. If the vote was not rigged in the SBR i might consider following its decision.

 

[Red Arremer]

How so? He used a lot of exaggerated statistics and erroneous subjective appeal to emotion. Not that anti bans argument was perfect either, I find both sides very flawed because the people making both arguments are conceited and will say anything to get their own way, not many honest people on either side.

I agree with this. The whole post, including the Anti-Ban write-up.

1. OK so basically we, the community, are leaving this decision up to 50-60 people. How many people are active in this community? Let's say anywhere from 7,000 to 10,000. Probably less, but it's just an estimate. Either way, those 50-60 people are less than 1%. So we, the community, 99.9% of the community (the rest being SBR) only get 10% of this vote. This poll is trivial. Why don't you people get this?

Making alt's doesn't do anything! Getting all your friends to vote doesn't do anything! Essentially, the future of the community rests in the hands of 50-60 people. I hope all of you know this.

I'll give you something to think about:
The SBR consists of people who are either
a.) the best players of their regions and in general
b.) TOs who have hosted big and/or regular events
c.) generally knowledgeable people who have dedicated their time into researching Brawl and know how to discuss it properly
d.) any combination of the above

The SBR is not just some random people. They're not circle-jerkers either.
The members of the SBR have proven themselves to be important enough for the community to have a say in deciding rulesets and projects (e.g. the tierlist).
I do not see how these people would hurt the community in any way if they decided what's best for competitive play, considering they are the best persons to ask about it.

What you are implying is that the SBR is just 100 people picked up randomly from the street and put in front of a computer. That we have no idea what we're talking about, that we have no idea about the community, tournaments or anything else.
Basically, you say we're scrubs for not banning Meta Knight.

Also, as an explanation:
The first 3 polls were not to decide whether Meta Knight should be banned directly, they were more meant to see what the community thinks, where they stand. A 5% majority doesn't make it a clear "Yes, we want him banned", because 5% is extremely little.
If the community really wanted Meta Knight to be definitely banned, the majority wouldn't be 5% only. Can't you grasp the idea that the Pro-Ban side is pretty much the same size as the Anti-Ban side, and that saying 5% majority being a clear victory for the Pro-Ban side in a vote is wrong?

If the vote was not rigged in the SBR i might consider following its decision.

Xyro, seriously. STFU. You can make your idiotic conspiracies in the SBR where it's just annoying, but carrying them outside is seriously the dumbest thing you've ever done.

 

[WaterTails]

He wasn't saying every melee player is a prick for voting, just the ones that don't play or care about brawl and are merely voting to **** things up for the people who care. I'm proban but if anti-ban wins I'll accept that all I want is it to be a clean vote.

Because Melee players voting against the ban is totally different than scrubs and July '09 posters voting for it. I can almost guarantee that there are more unwarranted votes for the ban than there are Melee voters against it.

Also,

9. Meta Knight is already clearly bannable, but we have artificial and unclear rules in place to keep him in the game.

Without rules clearly targeting Meta Knight, he would be literally undefeatable.

Weren't there rules specifically targeting the Icies in Melee, too? Couldn't the IDC be analogous to wobbling and planking to the freeze glitch?

And to add to the "MK is easy to use" counterpoint, do you know who else was easy to use, but not banned? Melee Sheik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrxI0uFDQyI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3V0OpjthNc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewv1-TERc0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAgoi4Ju4BQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=952FFTQeEXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoipPi0N6BE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn5gVRpJJ3U

 

[Teran]

And aren't you high and mighty, proclaiming who is and is not fit to help choose the people who would be deciding guidelines for whole community?

I'm not saying who is and who isn't fit.
It's just that 99% of people are too fickle and easily swayed to be trusted to get anything right.

Basically, a lot of people don't really think much before they do something, so I don't see why it's a bad thing putting putting restrictions down.

I don't see why people keep blabbing about democracy and rights, they really don't apply here.

yes. Meta will stay banned in my city untill further notice. no matter what side wins the vote. If the vote was not rigged in the SBR i might consider following its decision.

LOL.
Really helping to keep community faith there! :D

 

[etecoon]

After watching the Genesis Grand Finals, I had a hard time believing money was on the line at all.

didn't ally/m2k/tyrant split? doesn't matter anyway, it had more to do with other factors(both players just waking up and stress etc, praxis says he thinks m2k had a minor panic attack...). something to keep in mind with grand finals at extremely large tournaments like that is that they will frequently be very late, neither player is going to be at their best.

 

[2001]

When I made The Rankings (which only lasted like 1 month) I noticed something.

Snake dominates more than metaknight. A lot more.

Thats the main reason I think metaknight shouldnt be banned.