Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[POKE40]

Smash Brawl sucks.

fixed
for the lol.

<3

 

[masterdrenin]

Lol, people must be drinking gallons of haterade in this thread. Even lurking is boring now
Anyways, no matter what anyone here says, nothing is going to change haha. Nothing will change as others have already mentioned...

 

[Kinzer]

fixed
for the lol.

<3

Shouldn't do things for the lulz, that's why pro-ban have more votes than they should.

It sickens me when people make votes when they don't think/care/do it for selfish gains.

 

[Alus]

RDK are you like...super pissed?

I don't remember you like this...

Spoiler

Mabye you seem like this because you post in red.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

is this chart from a different forum? i don't understand how Pokemon Trainer is so high on that list.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It's actually more "assuming people paid attention to certain things" then anything else.


As I said, he dealt with many of the ban threads, and part of what came out of the last one was a complete and concrete understanding of what the smash community needs to do to prove MK is bannable under the sirlin standard.


He's referencing to that implicitly and the fact that nobody knows this is partially what frustrates him.


Honestly, it should be part of the front page, on tactical it emerged as the most important anti-ban argument last thread.

maybe it wasnt that big or that essential to be included in the front page if it wasnt there


EDIT for teh above post
Reflex goes to a lot of tourneys

 

[Akashi]

Oh, and Akashi:



Apparently he's your babysitter if you're not intelligent enough to get what I'm saying the first time. I even dumbed it down for you with the above part of my previous post. I'd like to see pro-ban present some actual evidence now, if you guys are done engaging in ad-hominem. But I guess that's normal when you don't have any substance to your view.

Are you really trying to reverse psychology me? The only reason why I ever quoted you was to say your logic of why people are wrong when they have a different opinion than you is flawed. I even set it up in a formula using a simple "if s then p" base. YOU'RE the one who isn't intelligent enough to get what I was saying the first time; and I wasn't even insulting your intelligence to begin with, I simply corrected you (unless you consider me being in the right and you being in the wrong an act of superiority). Also, when the hell did I even use ad hominem? Quote me, and use it in the right context.

 

[Atlus8]

I'm watching Treasure Planet!

 

[RDK]

RDK are you like...super pissed?

I don't remember you like this...

Spoiler

Mabye you seem like this because you post in red.

Lol, I'm not mad at all. I actually get a huge kick out of seeing pro-ban enact the same old garbage.

And you guys wonder why SRK and the like don't take the Smash community seriously.

 

[Divinokage]

Shouldn't do things for the lulz, that's why pro-ban have more votes than they should.

It sickens me when people make votes when they don't think/care/do it for selfish gains.

Oh and politics aren't like that too?

 

[adumbrodeus]

maybe it wasnt that big or that essential to be included in the front page if it wasnt there

It deals with the actual ban criteria which I would assume that we would at least implicitly follow.

Regardless of whether it was big in the SBR (probably because I'm not there) it was enormous in tactical in terms of it's influence on the thread. Anti-ban unified behind it, and pro-ban changed it's strategy.

It deserves inclusion.

 

[POKE40]

Shouldn't do things for the lulz, that's why pro-ban have more votes than they should.

It sickens me when people make votes when they don't think/care/do it for selfish gains.

I can NOT believe you're taking me seriously. First off did you not see what I "fixed for the lol?"
1) It did not pertain to the banning/ not banning mk
2) Did you not see the <3. T_T
3)
>_____>

I'm anti-ban anyways. Voted no in a heart-beat.
>_____________>

I really hate this discussion.
It turns people into politicians.
I changed my color to blue. So it cools you down.

*continues to headbang self on screen*

 

[RDK]

Are you really trying to reverse psychology me? The only reason why I ever quoted you was to say your logic of why people are wrong when they have a different opinion than you is flawed. I even set it up in a formula using a simple "if s then p" base. YOU'RE the one who isn't intelligent enough to get what I was saying the first time; and I wasn't even insulting your intelligence to begin with, I simply corrected you (unless you consider me being in the right and you being in the wrong an act of superiority). Also, when the hell did I even use ad hominem? Quote me, and use it in the right context.

Here, let me break it down for you, since you're having an extremely hard time understanding.

Nowhere did I say that people are wrong because they disagree with me. I said they're wrong because they don't agree on a point that literally every competitive fighting community has reached a consensus on. If you think that Metaknight warrants a ban with no current evidence available - matchup, tournament, or otherwise - then yes, you are wrong. Sorry, but you are.

If you don't want to play by competitive Smash rules, you have no business discussing anything to do with the SBR.

Edit: and my little mention of ad-hominem was directed at pro-ban in general, specifically that Ryokesh guy or whatever his name is. If you had proper reading comprehension skills, you might have caught that. I'll make sure to make my posts extra-dummy readable next time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It deals with the actual ban criteria which I would assume that we would at least implicitly follow.

Regardless of whether it was big in the SBR (probably because I'm not there) it was enormous in tactical in terms of it's influence on the thread. Anti-ban unified behind it, and pro-ban changed it's strategy.

It deserves inclusion.

Because you say so...

Obviously the people that matter disagree with you

 

['V']

fixed
for the lol.

<3

Touche, Madame.

Either way, Brawl is screwed. No matter what you do, this game will never be fully balanced. Smash as a whole in every game is just broken. You all have to realize this. This poll should really only matter to those characters who Meta Knight truly kills, meaning really only the top end of the tier list. But then again, why should those characters be the only ones to get special treatment, huh?

That's why this makes absolutely no sense.

 

[MarKO X]

I did not say olimar was better than MK and i didnt imply that. What i meant was MK can be beat even when MK has a large advantage. Pro-bans dont seem to understand that it takes skill to win with MK. A lot of skill, if u say that the Olimar won because the MK sucked then this proves that u need to have some skill with him to do well. And basiclly what pro-bans imply is that MK mainers arent as good as their records in tournies prove. So according to this logic M2K is a scruby brawler and only wins tournaments because he mains MK. If u someone says otherwise then MK mains need skill to suceed with him. Now i know most pro-bans dont say that MK requires no skill. But if he is ban worthy and unbalances the metagame. How much skill does the player really need to suceed with MK?

Having skill is obviously necessary.
It seems as though when someone says that a character is broken that no matter how suckish you are, you should win with that character if you are not going up against that character.

No, that's not it at all. Using Super Turbo as an example (yet again, I know. :sigh: ) a top player using cammy or ehonda (low tier characters, ehonda especially who is said to be weak against most characters with fireballs, dhalsim being the exception) will always beat an Akuma of less skill.

But at the highest level of play, a top player anyone that is not akuma will lose to a top player akuma. Period.

So, is MK the new Akuma? Yes... and no... MK is beatable... but by what means? Genesis's results show Ally at number 1, M2K at number 2, and Dojo and Tyrant at 3 and 4. Also, according to Praxis, Ally was the only one would could beat these 3 MKs in tourney sets.

The question is this, do you really have to be as good as Ally to beat M2k, Tyrant, and Dojo when they are at the top of their game? (not including M2K grandfinals johns) Can you be as good as Ally and beat one of those three MKs at the top of their game... with a character that isn't MK? or Snake?

Sure, I can beat my friend's MK with Sonic. A friend who's better than me can beat my MK with Wario. And so on and so forth. But at the top of the hill, where the money is at, where the glory is at, where the BIG WIN is at, must it be MK or die?

I wanna say ask Ally, but he lost to M2k at Evo.

Please note, this is not a shot at any of the top brawl players anywhere. It's just an argument.

 

[Reioumu]

If you're going to regurgitate stuff back up that's already been killed multiple ****ing times, try not to asphyxiate on your own vomit.

And a pathetic attempt to insult me/make me feel stupid over the internet helps? K.

Someone is mad. I herd that maeks u betur. :bigthumbu

And yeah srsly. lol @ brawl community. I see so much drama over one freaking character. I don't remember SF2 having this much drama when banning Akuma, or the fact that everyone plays top tiers in MvC2, and they aren't banned. W/e, you guys do what you want with Brawl, after this stupid thing, people are probably going to switch to melee anyway
-Rei

 

[adumbrodeus]

Because you say so...

Obviously the people that matter disagree with you

Again, I'm not the only one who says so.


I'm sort of hinting about a general problem with the opening essay, it took only the SBR input without considering what tactical had developed.


Honestly, ask anyone anti-ban active at the late stages of the thread who was active through a good portion of it whether that was influential. I lucked out and struck a chord by making a concrete process, so why shouldn't it be here?

 

[Atlus8]

Anyone here listen to the Goo Goo Dolls? I <3 the Goo Goo Dolls!

 

[da K.I.D.]

I love you Marko, i dont even care what part of the debate you are on, you are just amazing and bring up intelligent points in a tactful way.

madd props son


EDIT for adum
so what im hearing is that the 5 people that were around at the very end of the thread came up with some that the five of them really liked, and you are now butthurt that what you came up was not included in the argument. Thats just like when overswarm created ban criteria that people agreed with. but the people that mattered didnt approve or care enough about what he came up with. so it was disregarded

notevery one has to listen to your ideas just because you like them. stop acting butthurt

 

[Akashi]

Nowhere did I say that people are wrong because they disagree with me. I said they're wrong because they don't agree on a point that literally every competitive fighting community has reached a consensus on.

Er,

If you honestly think any of the pro-ban points are valid, then there's no reason to continue this discussion; it's proof enough that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Points are valid, just not enough content to warrant a ban. Bolded part is where you deter your own point by saying the pro-banners are too confused by their own merits, hence a red herring. Boom, my entire case and point. Right afterwards you throw random insults

Nameless losers who haven't been present for the past three polls think they know things. It's actually kind of funny.

and then say this,

I'd like to see pro-ban present some actual evidence now, if you guys are done engaging in ad-hominem. But I guess that's normal when you don't have any substance to your view.

Pot calls the kettle black. sup

In conclusion: I don't think MK should be banned, no, I KNOW he doesn't need to be banned. You're not helping our side, however, like I said in my first post.

 

[Arty]

From the tourney results on the first page, using the tournaments that had doubles results posted...

26/31 (84%) 1st place teams had a MK on them....

 

[Palpi]

And a pathetic attempt to insult me/make me feel stupid over the internet helps? K.

Someone is mad. I herd that maeks u betur. :bigthumbu

And yeah srsly. lol @ brawl community. I see so much drama over one freaking character. I don't remember SF2 having this much drama when banning Akuma, or the fact that everyone plays top tiers in MvC2, and they aren't banned. W/e, you guys do what you want with Brawl, after this stupid thing, people are probably going to switch to melee anyway
-Rei

Disregard this Ryko please haha Though he is anti-ban he is fairly stupid. Comparing Akuma to Metaknight is absurd.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pot calls the kettle black. sup

In conclusion: I don't think MK should be banned, no, I KNOW he doesn't need to be banned. You're not helping our side, however, like I said in my first post.

Burden of proof on pro-ban.

We gave you a concrete criteria, now it's time to pony up the evidence that MK fits that criteria.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Having skill is obviously necessary.
It seems as though when someone says that a character is broken that no matter how suckish you are, you should win with that character if you are not going up against that character.

No, that's not it at all. Using Super Turbo as an example (yet again, I know. :sigh: ) a top player using cammy or ehonda (low tier characters, ehonda especially who is said to be weak against most characters with fireballs, dhalsim being the exception) will always beat an Akuma of less skill.

But at the highest level of play, a top player anyone that is not akuma will lose to a top player akuma. Period.

So, is MK the new Akuma? Yes... and no... MK is beatable... but by what means? Genesis's results show Ally at number 1, M2K at number 2, and Dojo and Tyrant at 3 and 4. Also, according to Praxis, Ally was the only one would could beat these 3 MKs in tourney sets.

The question is this, do you really have to be as good as Ally to beat M2k, Tyrant, and Dojo when they are at the top of their game? (not including M2K grandfinals johns) Can you be as good as Ally and beat one of those three MKs at the top of their game... with a character that isn't MK? or Snake?

Sure, I can beat my friend's MK with Sonic. A friend who's better than me can beat my MK with Wario. And so on and so forth. But at the top of the hill, where the money is at, where the glory is at, where the BIG WIN is at, must it be MK or die?

I wanna say ask Ally, but he lost to M2k at Evo.

Please note, this is not a shot at any of the top brawl players anywhere. It's just an argument.

The big question is how good do u have to be to do well with MK. Sometimes the MK might win the match even though he's not as good as his opponent.


Im really not on any side right now. Im kind of arguing against both sides because of the lack of logic in their arguments.

 

[fkacyan]

From the tourney results on the first page, using the tournaments that had doubles results posted...

26/31 (84%) 1st place teams had a MK on them....

I'm fairly sure Melee didn't have much teams diversity either.

 

[Tbagz]

... great now i have to pick up a new main. i already know MK is going to be banned and i have a tournament the day after the results come in.. -_-

 

[Kamikaze*]

... great now i have to pick up a new main. i already know MK is going to be banned and i have a tournament the day after the results come in.. -_-

The yes option has to get to 66.6% first. Don't worry your little head, because it's not gonna happen.

 

[RDK]

Points are valid, just not enough content to warrant a ban. Bolded part is where you deter your own point by saying the pro-banners are too confused by their own merits, hence a red herring. Boom, my entire case and point.

Sigh. Poor reading comprehensions skills kicking in again, Akashi? Once again, you're making absolutely no sense here. Where did I say that their points were valid? In fact, I said the exact opposite:

If you honestly think any of the pro-ban points are valid, then there's no reason to continue this discussion

Pot calls the kettle black. sup

I have no problem engaging in ad-hominem after the stone has already been cast. Unfortunately, ad-hominem is all pro-ban has got. And nothing I said in that second quote is actually false. You guys do engage in ad-hominem, and you definitely don't have any substance to your view.

Feel free to prove me wrong; still waiting for that evidence from pro-ban.

In conclusion: I don't think MK should be banned, no, I KNOW he doesn't need to be banned. You're not helping our side, however, like I said in my first post.

I'm not helping our cause? Try taking a reading class first.

 

[fkacyan]

... great now i have to pick up a new main. i already know MK is going to be banned and i have a tournament the day after the results come in.. -_-

New Jersey won't ban MK, even if the SBR does.

 

[Divinokage]

... great now i have to pick up a new main. i already know MK is going to be banned and i have a tournament the day after the results come in.. -_-

It's still up to the Tournament Organizers to decide if they want to ban MK or not.

From the tourney results on the first page, using the tournaments that had doubles results posted...

26/31 (84%) 1st place teams had a MK on them....

Well in teams in melee these days.. there are tons of diversity, just look at the Genesis results or Pound 3. But the teams that won or high placing do have a Fox in them so that makes that point invalid already. I didn't look at every result but I'm pretty sure it's almost always the case since Fox is amazing in teams combined with other top tier.

 

[da K.I.D.]

New Jersey won't ban MK, even if the SBR does.

they wont
10 mks...
per 15 man tourney...

 

[da K.I.D.]

It's still up to the Tournament Organizers to decide if they want to ban MK or not.

Well in teams in melee these days.. there are tons of diversity, just look at the Genesis results or Pound 3. But the teams that won or high placing do have a Fox in them so that makes that point invalid already. I didn't look at every result but I'm pretty sure it's almost always the case since Fox is amazing in teams combined with other top tier.

i dont know melee as well as you so you tell me.

has there ever been a doubles tourney where winners, losers and grand finals were all double fox dittoes?

 

[Reioumu]

Disregard this Ryko please haha Though he is anti-ban he is fairly stupid. Comparing Akuma to Metaknight is absurd.

I no rite? MK is nowhere near as bannable as Akuma is, and yet people find it plausible to do it. w/e I'll spend my time playing better games. It just sucks that the community has gone to **** like this.

Kage, we must play in melee again. I need revenge from APEX friendlies!
-Rei

 

[MarKO X]

The big question is how good do u have to be to do well with MK. Sometimes the MK might win the match even though he's not as good as his opponent.

Im really not on any side right now. Im kind of arguing against both sides because of the lack of logic in their arguments.

Assuming that neither player SDs, that's the problem. Under no means is playing MK autowin, but if you can play MK, you automatically have the best tools in the game to win, hands down. He does well on every stage against everyone.

 

[fkacyan]

Assuming that neither player SDs, that's the problem. Under no means is playing MK autowin, but if you can play MK, you automatically have the best tools in the game to win, hands down. He does well on every stage against everyone.

My gods, no. Clearly you are extremely ignorant.

 

[Divinokage]

i dont know melee as well as you so you tell me.

has there ever been a doubles tourney where winners, losers and grand finals were all double fox dittoes?

I have personally fought Double Fox before alot of times and I have seen in the West Coast Quad Fox also in Toronto this happened. But it was never Quad Fox in finals.. I don't think that has ever happened before in decent sized to major tournaments. Well.. in my career I mean and what I've seen so far. Also fighting double fox is ridiculous.. however there will ALWAYS be an odd team that beats double Fox.. like Chu (IC) and Azen (Marth) at RoM beat Cactuar and Shiz double Fox in a set. Also myself Me (Ganon), Vwins (Peach) against Raynex and Unknown double fox and then Falco/Fox for example or even me and Darc at Apex was vs M2k and Jman went Double Fox too against our Jiggs/Ganon. It's great team but it's not the best team.

Edit: Sephiroth, of course =D

Edit2: I think the best team in melee is Fox/Peach or Fox/jiggs.

 

[Avion]

The yes option has to get to 66.6% first. Don't worry your little head, because it's not gonna happen.

Actually the 2/3 vote is for the SBR voting. The poll's involvement is different; the winning side gets one vote + one additionaly vote for every 2.5% over 50%. So at the current rate, it's two pro-ban votes + whatever the SBR is voting.

 

[PolMex23]

Good stuff

nice i like it

good

Only accuse me of being a troll and derailing **** when you actually understand what you're trying to reference and imitate.

stuff

.

I sectioned the wrong part but whatever im too lazy.

I think you have it wrong. I think taking both extremes is in some way, illogical.

Why? Because the extreme from option B (Banning MK) is most likely not going to occur. Only with polls an general hear say you can tell that the general community wont crumple due to the majority of players that play characters other than MK. It will only deter so many, not everyone has that mindset of leaving due to there character being banned.

True, this isn't the whole truth but the community is biased. And it is illogical to bring out that extreme because its just not possible. From one regions stand point, Florida, the players who chose MK will move on, an choose another character. Florida has a large scene, so it will have some say.

No attack to your intelligence or logic, but just pointing it out that your wrong to even consider the extreme for option B.

 

[MarKO X]

My gods, no. Clearly you are extremely ignorant.

I'm ignorant by saying he has the best tools to win hands down?
Well, tell me then, who has better tools to win with then?
Educate me please.