Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Divinokage]

In my opinion, you guys are just lazy to elaborate properly and then you go in an endless useless war. lol.

 

[MBlaze]

Jesus. o_o Night and day with these political battles over MK. Lmfao SBR make a decision already, I really don't care which. (I voted Anti-Ban tho).

 

[-KB]

*sigh*...

Some of these people need to be enlightened on the Fist vs. Face matchup already. It's at least a 70-30 Fist advantage.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm ignorant by saying he has the best tools to win hands down?
Well, tell me then, who has better tools to win with then?
Educate me please.

He does not do well on every stage against every character. If this were the case, nobody would ever take a match off of M2K, ever.

 

[Pierce7d]

Excuse me for off topic, but in Brawl, MK and Snake are probably the best team, as they compliment each other tremendously, though Wario and G&W are both amazing doubles characters, and can probably do more for a team individually.

In Melee, I am of the opinion that Fox/Jiggs is the best team.

 

[Divinokage]

He does not do well on every stage against every character. If this were the case, nobody would ever take a match off of M2K, ever.

I disagree because a bad matchup is possible to win too, it's never unbeatable... so obviously he'll lose a game but he will generally win the set just because of his character and his overall no matchup disavantage. Matchups ARE based on sets right?

 

[bobson]

100 pages!

And hahahaha Inui got banned

 

[da K.I.D.]

He does not do well on every stage against every character. If this were the case, nobody would ever take a match off of M2K, ever.

thats like saying Diddy hasnt shouldnt and wont lose on final D cus its his best stage.

doing well on a stage =/= auto win

also, madd props to Bob Saget! for stepping his game up in relation to internet debates

 

[MarKO X]

He does not do well on every stage against every character. If this were the case, nobody would ever take a match off of M2K, ever.

lol
ok, that was pretty extreme... but now I have another question.

MK vs whoever you want on a neutral. MK is good against everyone on neutrals.
Mk wins.
You choose a stage that MK doesn't do well on with a character that can take advantage of that. Apparently there's more than 1, so MK can't ban all of the stages. MK stays MK. You win that match.
MK stays away from any possible stage that he would have any trouble on against any character.
MK wins.
Good game.... was that fair? Or rather... is that broken?

 

[POKE40]

The community is getting torn by this infamous debate.
Off Topic can cool the flame war here.

I would think G&W and Snake/MK would be the best team IMO.

 

[Divinokage]

Excuse me for off topic, but in Brawl, MK and Snake are probably the best team, as they compliment each other tremendously, though Wario and G&W are both amazing doubles characters, and can probably do more for a team individually.

In Melee, I am of the opinion that Fox/Jiggs is the best team.

I don't think it's really off topic because doubles performances matter as well.. though it's much much more vague and way more variable because of skill level and chemistry and sometimes really random **** happens. But ya generally having an MK on one team is really ridiculous, all you need to do is annoy the **** out of the 2 guys and when an opportunity presents itself your friend hits the opponent out of Mk moves and so on lol. It's extremely hard to punish.. however 2 MKs on one team is like.. wtf what do i do? lol.. I experienced that against DMbrandon and shadow I think?

Edit: Well double Fox in melee is almost the same.. it's just in brawl I'm a scrub so I don't know how to deal with it. lol =D

 

[Masmasher@]

Wow when these threads pop up the scrubs come out by the dozens. If top level players can beat him then why the **** are you for the ban. Screw your thoughts about making the community better all you are doing is catering to a bunch of whiny ****ing scrubs who would rather erase a obstacle instead of overcome it. If he cant be beaten how did ally/others do it. Man the **** up your game already sucks ****. Banning this character only serves to prove that point. I cant believe i read this crap. You sucked this game down to its bare minimum with only players/characters being the main skill determinant then you want to eliminate a character because hes good. Welcome to the ****ing competitive community. You wonder why EVO and other communities laugh at you. What Is banning him gonna do FOR YOU. Ask youselves are you gonna place better at major/national events? Its not like 90% of your had the compentance to compete anyway. Especially with the majority mentality im seeing now.

The same people are still gonna **** the **** out of you.
Its not like who you main doesnt have other problems. Your character still sucks hot *** regardless.
Honestly how most of you can even stand this crap is beyond me especially a bunch of whiners who fail so hard. Learn the matchup

Scrubs= play the game the way i want you to play
Honestly thats what i'm seeing
You have the chance to partispate in a tournament. Exterior forces pushed aside that would prevent you from competing such as travel, money and so forth and you have the nerve to ***** and complain like this to other people cause of their character. Aside from this forum you are just statistics that play for alpha zelots chart of "wow the community is so lively and huge" When on the interior **** like this is happening.
I wouldnt cater for a stranger especially a whiny scrub like the ones you have to deal with.
if you ban him you are decreasing the already crap level of competitviness this ****ty game has to offer.

Also....
KAWAILI BUNNY I WANT YOUR AVATAR!
tell me how to get it

 

[Clai]

Pro-Ban Side

We believe that Metaknight should be banned from competitive play, for both the health of the game and of the community.

As such, this document has been written to outline several key points to explain the reasoning behind a ban. We will begin with the first point explaining ban criteria, and follow into what makes Metaknight "too good" of a character. The latter points delve into the effects of MK on the metagame as a whole and the community. We appreciate your taking the time to read our argument and make an informed decision.



1. Metaknight is bannable.

Before we choose to ban or not to ban metaknight, a criteria must be set on what it takes to ban a character. We will write two criteria on what it takes to ban an aspect of the game. You may ask “where did you get this criteria, did you pull it out of your behind, like a Gordo or Stichface? No. Our ban criteria is derived from two sources: history/practice (past smash games, stuff we did ban in Brawl) and to a lesser extent, popular opinion.

To summarize our ban criteria and the reasoning behind it – before we go into the details to support it- here we are.

Okay, so here's where we begin. Let's dissect this, shall we?

Criteria to ban something in the game

[1] That aspect of the game must be so different from everything else in the game that it is an alien to the rest of the game.
[2] That aspect of the game must decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl.

I personally don't think that having Metaknight in the game decreases the quality of every aspect of Brawl. Metaknight is not alien to the concepts of hit-stun, relative speed, or weight (horizontally and vertically) and thus can be beaten like every other character. Let me save this discussion to counter each of these points later on, though.

Now, why set these criteria? Is it arbitrary? No. The reason these are ban criteria is because:

A- Everything we have banned in Super Smash Brothers history has met both of these criteria, and
B – Besides Metaknight, there is nothing we have yet to ban that satisfied both of these criteria.

The issue is simple. Metaknight shares all the same aspects of Brawl that we have ALREADY BANNED – In Brawl, and to lesser extents, Melee and Smash 64. Thus, Metaknight should be banned as well.

Before we go into some details, please realize that the ban criteria the anti ban side come up with are likely not in accordance with past smash games but more likely in accordance with other fighting games. Then ask yourself what is more important: to ban what we the smash community have decided has been banworth over our series’ 8-10 year history, or to ban what other communties have set as ban criteria? Obviouisly, because this is a Smash game, the ban criteria we have set in SMASH GAMES SHOULD OUTWEIGHT THE BAN CRITERIA SET IN OTHER FIGHTING GAMES. We are the smash community and we are our own entity. Our game is NOT Street Fighter. We choose as a community to follow our own path and, while we take guidance from other communities, our own history sets a better standard than the history of other games.

No other fighting game has items that come up randomly, nor do other fighting games have stages where you can fight on a giant flower or in a city where a beast comes up and OHKO's your character, so we had to deal with that separately from the other games. In essence, we had removed almost everything (bar edgeguarding and gimping) that separates the Smash series from other fighting games. The point of discussion in hand, though, is about Metaknight and how he compares to other characters in the game. This aspect of the game, the one directly at hand, is exactly like every other fighting game out there. Brawl has a tier list based on tournament placings and matchups. Other fighting games have tier lists based on tournament placings and matchups. This aspect of the game is exactly like other fighting games and can be compared as such.

As for the whole "we're a community deal," let me ask you this: Which criteria should we follow to when it comes from removing a character in the game? A community who has proven to deal with the best characters of its respective game with maturity and wisdom, or a community filled with people who are too stubborn to deal with the best character in the game? The former- Street Fighter Third Strike, where Chun-Li and Yun take over a majority of the placings but nothing about banning them comes up. The latter- this community. It's not wise to choose your own path when its filled with subjectivity and what I believe to be a really, really bad choice.

Now, we will show the ban criteria. Then in A, we will explain how everything we banned as a community fits the ban criteria. In B, we will show how Metaknight fits the criteria.

[1] The aspect of the game must be so different than every aspect of the game that it is alien to the game.
A - What have we banned that follows this criteria?

Examples: Items, Crazy Stages, Stalling Techniques

The first thing people will say is that items are banned because they are random. That is not why they are banned. Otherwise, why do we set the first stage on random? Why do we allow King DDD to use forward b and Peach to use down B? Why is Halberd not banned (it has random hazards) Items are banned because winning based on a random event is foreign to all the other reasons you should win. As a community, we want winning to be based on overall skill set, not your ability to deal with a random event. You cannot disagree that if you are far better at dealing with food on very low than your opponent, you will likely win the items match. It has a very low effect on the outcome, yet food on very low is banned. The random factor is even smaller than the hazards on some legal stages. It’s just that as a community, the skill of being able to deal extremely will with a random event is ALIEN to the rest of the skills of the game – mind games, spacing, tech skill, and so on. This applies to crazy stages. We don’t want to see how good you are at teching. If you were perfect at teching, nobody would ever beat you on Hyrule Temple in Melee or Luigi’s Mansion in Brawl. You’d be unbeatable. But winning based on teching alone isn’t a skill you’d want to test. Same goes for stalling. It takes skill to stall. Both players can do it. So why not allow it? It’s because it’s alien to spacing, mind games, tech skill. It’s alien and we don’t care to measure this as valuable.

The actual characters involved in the game are more important than items and crazy stages and such. And nothing in here deals with stalling, so I can't construct an argument that has to do with the actual game in its competitive sense (as in without items and crazy stages)

B. Why Metaknight follows this Criteria

This point is supported by the rest of the pro ban argument.

Oh boy, I sense I'm going to have to deal with every single sentence here.

It’s all the stuff about MK having no bad matchups

Many top-tier characters in other fighting games don't have bad matchups. This is not unique to Brawl, and if anyone says that I can't compare Brawl to other fighting games, you haven't been reading my arguments and you should stop and go back to the beginning.

its about MK’s unique ability to stall matches and break the planking ledge grab rules.

Wario and Game and Watch can stall matches too. Many of the people who main these two characters just choose to not do it as gay as Metaknight mains.

It’s about MK’s over focus on the Metagame.

Yeah, being the best and overused character in the game is going to require people to focus on this character more than the other characters.

Sure, it takes skill to win with MK. But guess what? It takes skill to stall too. It takes skill to deal with food on very low. It’s just that, these aspects are so foreign to the rest of the game that they should all be removed. With MK in, success in brawl is determined in your ability to beat one matchup, honestly. Notice that the best players in the world are those that are simply good against MK. This is the #1 far and above beyond aspect that makes or breaks you as a player, even if you are meh at every other matchup in the game. It’s foreign and fits the ban criteria. With MK removed, the game isn’t about defeating one matchup so much as it is about winning a massive load of matchups.

Yeah, yeah, I'll say it again, Metaknight's the BEST and the MOST OVERUSED character in Brawl. If you want to be successful in any fighting game, you have to deal with both of these issues. Let me put Street Fighter IV for example. Sagat and Ryu are the best characters in the game, as they have no bad matchups. You want to win tournaments? Learn to get past these characters. The most overused character in the game (I'm talking about all levels of play here)? Ken. All of the newb players usually flock to him because of his longetivity in the Street Fighter franchise. You want to be successful? You're gonna have to beat Ken too, whether if its the player who just picked up this game or the player who mained Ken from Day 1 and has reached a professional level with him. The only thing different here is that Metaknight just happens to be the BEST and the MOST OVERUSED player here. This isn't alien to a fighting game and thus not worth a ban.

[2] That aspect of the game must decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl.

A – Examples of things we banned that fit this – Crazy stages, Stalling, Items

Yup, the exact same examples. When you are playing on a crazy stage, every aspect of Brawl – counterpicks, excitement of watching the match, spacing, mind games are all minimized in favor of playing on the stage. Stalling. Stalling decreases the quality of watching matches, decreases viewing interest in the game, spacing, mind games and everything. It becomes a battle of who can avoid contact. Much like MK’s existence becomes about defeating MK and the ability to counterpick MK. Items. I’m not talking about bombs, and crazy things. we mean FOOD ON VERY LOW. Why is this banned? To be honest it’s because, bluntly, WE JUST DON”T LIKE IT. Can one seriously argue that food on very low is going to make a much more skilled player lose to a less skilled player? No. But, food’s EXISTENCE decreases the importance of every single other thing – mind games, spacing, tech skill. We just WANT to play a game where these qualities are the be all end all to test, not a game where food decreases the importance of these. Quite honestly food on very low is banned because it gets in the way of the game we want to play.

Yes, the argument boils down to “MK is not broken enough to be unbeatable, but MK is broken enough to ruin every quality and aspect of the game in the same way everything we have ever banned has been.” That is where we come up with the banned criteria. Things we’ve banned in Smash Brawl, Smash Melee, and Smash 64. If you are getting your ban criteria on PERSONAL DESIRE or OTHER FIGHTING GAMES, is it really as substantial as getting it from all the banned aspects of the series of games Super Smash Brothers Brawl? What we have banned as a community and the reasons we have banned them are ALIGNED with why the pro ban side wishes to ban Metaknight.

Have you seen a Street Fighter IV tournament before? It's a giant turtle-fest. Players going back and forth trying to get in the exact space to mount an offensive, it's boring as ever. Melee? A trip down memory lane will help you here. Stalling isn't new to fighting games, nor shall we pretend it is. Metaknight decreasing the quality of the game because a lot of the community's effort is going toward beating him? Well boo-hoo, Metaknight's the BEST and the MOST OVERUSED character in the game. BEST and MOST OVERUSED does not equal a ban under any circumstances. As for your trying to dismiss me comparing this game to other fighters? Well we can't compare it to the other games in the Smash franchise- We've never attempted to ban a character before. So where are we going to get our precedence for this? The other fighting games where they had to deal with the best characters in their games. My conclusion: We are discussing banning a character and thus we should look for examples among other fighting games as to how this character relates to every other character in the game.

Let's continue:

2. Metaknight is the best character in the game by a significant margin.

It is universally unquestioned that Metaknight is the best character in Brawl, and with good reason. The term broken is often coined; and since the term often is used with different meanings, we should begin with defining the term "broken". For our purposes, we will define "broken" as "A word used to describe an element in a video game that does belong, and is above aspects or mechanics of the game." We as pro ban believe that Metaknight is "broken" within this definition.

I was a bit confused by this definition at first, but now I'm starting to understand. Reading on...

An analysis of Metaknight's moveset demonstrates his capabilities as the best character. Such an analysis is too lengthy for this writeup, but see Praxis' brief list or perhaps Fiction's lengthy document.

Individual aspects of his moveset are merely tools MK has available to him, and obviously do not in themselves prove Metaknight to be broken. The deeper issue is that, when this moveset is combined into one character, the result is a character that bypasses several aspects of the game. The following points will examine how Metaknight fits this description.

How is Metaknight the best and most complete character in the game? We'll tell you shortly...

3. Metaknight has a perfect recovery and an abnormally safe ledge game.

One of the basic game mechanics that Metaknight bypasses is that of recovery. Metaknight's recovery is virtually perfect; he always has a safe option to recover, unless he has needlessly wasted them. With the combination of his multiple jumps, shuttle loop, two glides each capable of crossing clear to the other side of the stage, tornado, Drill Rush, invulnerable Dimensional Cape (as well as Infinite and Extended Dimensional Cape to cross the stage), and quick aerials with little ending lag make his recovery not just safe, but unstoppable barring a mistake on the part of the Metaknight. By bypassing the entire edgeguarding aspect of the game, Metaknight takes less damage and virtually never gets gimped, which, when combined with his excellent momentum cancels, greatly minimize the seeming "lightweight" disadvantage.

The pro-ban side has prepared a video demonstrating why MK's recovery breaks normal standards of recovery and breaks the game's normal edgeguarding mechanics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDCG6NF10oU

Metaknight's extremely powerful recovery ties in to the issue of safe options, which will be discussed shortly.

The first part of the pro-ban argument I agree with (and as I've said in this thread before, I've always agreed with this part). However, the fact that Metaknight is a very light character means that Metaknight is going to reach the blast zones far easier than most characters in this game. This is especially true when we're talking about vertical KO's. I know you talk about Metaknight's light weight in your argument, but Metaknight can't recover if he's already reached the blast zones, and unless you can prove with hard data that Metaknight has some incredible DI'ing and momentum-canceling skills, Metaknight is going to die earlier than most, no matter how impossible it is to stop Metaknight from reaching the stage when he can.

Another point is Metaknight's ledge game. Typically, in smash, being on the ledge is considered a disadvantaged position. In Brawl, there exists a subset of characters who are safe on the ledge as they remain on the ledge (playing on ledge the entire match is referred to as "planking"). These characters include Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, and of course, Metaknight. A ledge grab rule was created to discourage planking from dominating matches, and for the most part, it has been effective- except where Metaknight is involved. Metaknight is the only character in the cast capable of stalling offstage in an unapproachable position over an extended period of time in between the ledgegrabs (and further, gliding under the stage to the opposite ledge if threatened). As a result, we see Metaknight players continuing to abuse such strategies in spite of rulesets designed specifically to stop it; and said rulesets were instituted for the most part due to Metaknight users abusing planking in the first place.

Have you seen Plank's Sheik in Melee? It's really gay on the ledges too. I agree that this could be a problem when you consider the fact that Metaknight can't be gimped (as in when a character gets killed without reaching the horizontal or vertical blast zones). However, Metaknight reaches those blast zones quite easily compared to others, so it's not a game-breaking deal.

4. Metaknight has too many safe options.

In Melee, and in Brawl, most characters are capable of limiting the options of each other until the opponent is in a disadvantaged situation. Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario, and ROB are examples of characters that excel at limiting the options of their opponents. In any situation, there is generally a certain amount of options the opponent can take that will result in either them being hit, you being hit, or neither being hit, and the goal is to put the opponent in a situation with minimal options that result in you being hit or neither.

For example; Fiction's Wario is trying to approach a Snake. Out of lets say 20 scenarios, he gets hit in 10, he hits snake in 5, and neither of them get hit in 5. He wants to make sure he keeps using those 5 options where no one gets hit until he can find the situation where he can hit snake without being hit in return. If Fiction were to simply rush snake without using the neither-hit option, he would have a 2/3 chance of getting hit..something that he doesn't want. When snake gets Fiction in a bad situation, such as having used his double jump above his head, while Snake has shot a mortar up in the air and has a grenade on the ground, there are more like, say, 5 situations. In those 5 situations, most snakes can cover 2-3, while a very good snake (such as ally), could possibly cover all 5 at once, making sure that Fiction gets hit no matter what he does. This is called A DISADVANTAGED SITUATION.

Unlike the rest of the cast, due to his numerous jumps, glides, priority-ball specials, quick low-lag aerials, best airdodge, and powerful defensive moveset, MK has a "safe" option in almost any situation that results in the neither-hit result. As MK cannot be trapped in such a manner, MK is capable of continuously choosing safe options until punishment opportunities arise. This is why so-called "gay" Metaknight playstyles are so effective. MK is capable of abusing his safe options, and in some matchups, to an absurd degree- for example, the DEHF vs Dojo matchup, in which Dojo ran the timer out by simply remaining in the air using his aerials defensively the entire match (a match which a Genesis judge wanted to DQ him for, despite the fact that no rules were violated).

And yet other players have proven to take Metaknight out of these proposed "safe" situations and hit them for considerable damage. You're still not convincing me that Metaknight is infallible, only better than the other characters.

Due to these points, we believe that Metaknight is a character that is not in line with the rest of the cast, and thus not fit for competitive play.

The best character =/= a character unfit for competitive play. You haven't convinced me of anything except that Metaknight is really, really good offstage. Other characters can work around this, though.

5. Meta Knight breaks the counterpick system.
Super Smash Brothers Brawl is based on counterpicks, both via stage and character; this is most especially true in singles. The existence of said counterpicks is ignored only by the most obtuse and stubborn members of our smash community, with the majority of competitive smash players embracing the concept and learning stages that are good or bad for certain characters as well as getting secondary characters to create more favorable matchups.

Generally, counterpicks are character dependent more than stage dependent. The most extreme example generally involving infinites or zero-deaths, such as Pikachu vs. Fox, or D3 vs. DK, and less extreme simply based on movesets, mobility, edgeguarding, gimping, combos, juggles, and a variety of other factors leading many to see obvious advantages in matchups like MK vs. Luigi, Falco vs. D3, or Marth vs. Jiggs. Stages also generally play a factor, admittedly less of one due to our banning of extreme stages like Shadow Moses or Bridge of Eldin. Stages increase our odds of winning by naturally enhancing our characters strengths as well as our opponents weaknesses; you will find Falco winning on Jungle Japes often due to his spike into the water negating many recoveries while Falco's side-b does just fine in getting him back to the stage, and Metaknight's gimping abilities are no stranger to Rainbow Cruise.

We've built Smash on the back of this counterpick system to make things fair. There are no "fair" stages; Snake does extremely well on all flat stages with platforms, most notably Smashville and Battlefield, but pales in comparison to ROB on mobile stages like Rainbow Cruise or Frigate Orpheon, and the Ice Climbers themselves would easily prefer Final Destination. We allow for double blind picks and force the winner of the prior game to choose their character after the stage is chosen, and then allow the losing player to counterpick with a character of his choice, resulting in at least one "uphill" battle for each player and one "fair" starting match via our stage strike system.

Unfortunately, Metaknight breaks both the stage aspect and the character aspect. The only stages Metaknight has shown to do poorly on have been Shadow Moses, Bridge of Eldin, and other ridiculously one-sided stages. As for characters, Metaknight has shown to have only even matchups at best and has continually outshined every other character in the game. Because of this, Metaknight inherently breaks the counterpick system.

Should you consider Diddy a good character (as many do), an even matchup with MK, and a tournament viable character in many other matchups, you would have company. However, that Diddy player will have to go through a counterpick that is not favorable for him in every set in addition to all the bad matchups he must face when he runs into Marth, ROB, or anyone else that has an advantage over him. Metaknight never has this issue in any way.

The MK numbers never go down. If MK had a counter, this would not be occurring and instead we'd see an influx of the counter character to Metaknight. If we suddenly saw a rise in Donkey Kongs, wouldn't we see a large number of Dedede secondaries within a month or two? Metaknights numbers have consistently increased, not decreased, and it is due to his lack of a proper counter character and stage.

Ok, so Metaknight doesn't have matchups that hinder him (based on the character alone and having nothing to do with the skill of the player) or stages that limit his abilities. Counterpicking stages may be something new to the Smash series compared to other fighting games, but the Metaknight player can't pick any stages after he/she loses that completely destroys Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario or the other high-tier characters. This is mostly because one of the main requirements of being a high-tier character is to adapt to any stage without being completely neutralized. Honestly, if there were two stages that Diddy Kong absolutely cannot play on, Diddy Kong would be unable to win any tournament match where the opponent can counterpick and thus he wouldn't be a high-tier character.

Now for "Metaknight can't be counterpicked based on character." Are you beginning to understand what being the best character in the game means? Many of the best characters in other fighting games can't be counterpicked based on characters as well, and many of them aren't even close to bannable. That's not the reason this reason is invalid, though. The main reason is that Metaknight has enough 60:40 or 55:45 matchups that you can stick with your main and generally have a solid chance of winning.

With the high amount of characters that are completely viable against Metaknight, regardless of stages, the need to counterpick Metaknight is greatly diminished to the point where most top players aren't affected by the counterpicking system. Therefore, MK does not break the counterpicking system, by character or by stage, as there is nothing that separates Metagame to the cast of this game from the best characters in other fighting games and the rest of the cast in their respective games.

6. Metaknight detracts from the metagame.

As the game has grown, each region has seen their own share of strong players playing strong characters of a large variety. As time went on, we discovered Snake to be extremely powerful and he dominated the tournament scene. The game then became figuring out "what beats Snake" and we found several counterpicks and counter-characters. Despite Snake being proclaimed as a "counter" to MK, it was Metaknight that took the top spot from Snake and has stayed there by a large margin ever since.

This alone is evidence that Metaknight is something special.

So Metaknight's the best character in the game. So what? Let's see what you have in this section:

The points above individually mean nothing, but together they mean that Metaknight detracts from the metagame. At low level play, Metaknight is the signature character of "broken" with all his powerful options and gimps, at mid level play he is the magic pill that finally gets you out of the slump (it gets tiring losing to the same character, right?), and at high level play he is the constant "safe option", a pocket secondary that EVERYONE can pick up and play effectively with little to no serious training in addition to Metaknight being a viable main on his own.

So Metaknight's the best character and the easiest to pick up? You're still not convincing me that Metaknight is so much better than the other characters that he's worth banning. Remember, we're not talking about whether Metaknight is the best character; we're talking about how much he outshines the rest of the cast.

This creates a metagame focusing around Metaknight at all levels. Low level players have already been conditioned to see MK as the dominant threat due to his dominance, and mid level players are often seen choosing Metaknight to solve their problems; it is only through a community-wide soft ban and personal preference that he hasn't fully permeated the scene. Many players do not pick Metaknight because he is "too gay" or they simply want to pick another character because they love that character! When you are playing to win, Metaknight is the primary serious option and this has been apparent to us at high level play.

You're missing a part here. You forgot to mention the loads of people who pick up other characters because they are more comfortable with that character's moveset with any other character's. When you're playing to win, you need to pick the character you're most comfortable with.

No other character has been a more consistent main and secondary at the top level of play.

Being the best character in the game's gonna have that effect.

In a tournament setting, the ideal (and the reason people pick up secondaries) is to never play a matchup worse than 5/5, and not open yourself up to stage counterpicks that disadvantage all of your characters. Players often develop secondaries to account for certain stages and their bad matchups (such as an Ice Climbers main on Brinstar). In a game with such a dual-counterpicking system, a character with no bad stages or bad matchups (matchups worse than 5/5) is "broken" in the sense that anyone who does not play that character is opening themselves up to stage and character counterpicks. By completely removing the counterpicking aspect of the game, Metaknight not only becomes the ideal guaranteed universal option that every reasonable player should use, but also removes the importance of the rest of the cast (why pick a character with a bad matchup when you don't have to?).

This is just not right. The reason people pick up secondaries is because they want to feel confortable fighting any character in the game even when they're fighting a character that would make them uncomfortable with their main. All these numbers and talk about matchups is way too objective; remember the player is the one counterpicking, not the game telling the player what to counterpick. If a certain player is comfortable fighting Metaknight with Jigglypuff, even when all sound logic says that player shouldn't, should he really stop him/her from picking who he/she wants? If someone is counterpicking Metaknight with another Metaknight for the sole reason that "it's the ideal universal option,' and yet the player is uncomfortable with using Metaknight, that player, more often than not, has already lost the match before it started.

When the game focuses on beating someone that is commonly played, easy to use, powerful, eliminates common game mechanics (like edgeguarding and counterpicking), and whose sole weakness is a temporary "since everyone plays MK, we know the matchup vs. MK better than the MK does" you get a shell surrounding the ACTUAL game beneath. A game with a multitude of counterpicks and an incredibly large group of viable tournament characters that are otherwise removed solely by Metaknight is possible. The game shouldn't be about solely beating Metaknight, and the best option shouldn't be to pick Metaknight. We have all played smash without Metaknight, and it is a more enjoyable and more competitive smash that increases character diversity by a significant margin.

That's quite a lot of spunk you have, making absolute statements like that. So Metaknight's the best and most overused character in the game, we've got that down. The eliminating counterpicking I've already mentioned. The "incredibly large group of viable tournament characters that are otherwise removed solely by Metaknight?" WOAH! Let's take a step back here. How many characters are rendered unviable by Metaknight? 5? Out of 36? This game isn't about beating Metaknight any more than any other fighting game, Melee and Smash64 included, is about beating the best characters in their game. You want to prove me wrong by using tournament standings? Other posts have already addressed that, not to mention that when we're dealing with the best and the most overused character in the game, of course we're going to see that character with high amounts of placing. It's completely natural.

7. Meta Knight is a very serious detriment to the mid level of play.
Traditionally, the SBR has always catered to the top level of play, but is this always the right course of action? When considering a character like Metaknight, it is wise to consider the effects on the community as a whole, and most notably, the mid level of play.

Very few players truly play the game at high levels, and the vast majority of players are at what is considered a "mid" level of play. And at this mid level of play, Metaknight dominates at an unprecedented level. It is not uncommon for smaller regions to be dominated by a Metaknight who does not practice at all and often puts minimal effort into the game. While such a player may not perform well at a national tournament against high level players who have spent countless hours studying the matchup, he is capable of beating everyone within his skill set, even those who put significantly more time into their characters. If the region progresses significantly, eventually either the Metaknight who does not practice is toppled, or forced to actually practice and/or learn matchups to remain on top.

This odd situation has occurred in many regions, including Ohio, Washington, Idaho, Puerto Rico, Eastern Canada, New Mexico, Arizona, and likely many others not listed. And while in some cases, the region's top players become better and eventually surpasses the mid-level MK mains and overcome the matchup, the MK main still continues to outplace everyone in their skill level, simply due to the ease of use of the character.

I see we're just going on completely different wavelengths here. What's your definition of "mid-level and high-level play?" My definition of high-level play is the level of players who have progressed far enough with their characters that they can nearly always defeat anyone who isn't in their skill level, regardless of character, and thus is capable of competing very well and perhaps placing in tournaments. Anyone who hasn't reached that level is a mid-level player (the difference between low and mid-level play is irrelevant for this conversation). So... according to that defintion... of course the best character is going to dominate mid-level play! If you aren't good enough to beat someone who put minimal time with their character, even if it's Metaknight, then you should stop whining and improve your game until you can beat it. Otherwise, quit complaining, because other players have learned to surpass this obstacle and you haven't.

Metaknight's ease of use, at mid levels of play, becomes the magic bullet, letting anyone who switches to MK immediately outplace anyone at their skill level.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! No.

And unlike other characters known for simplicity (Mr. Game & Watch in Brawl, Sheik in Melee), the character does not begin to show flaws as high levels of play are approached, but rather, only gets better. Meanwhile, the other players in the region have to put enormous amounts of effort simply to be able to fight Metaknight. Often, the solution is to simply pick up Metaknight to deal with Metaknight, as a main, or a second (as achieving higher levels of play is not a satisfactory short term answer, and still will never give you an advantaged matchup).

The only people who actually pick up Metaknight to fight Metaknight are those people who were never comfortable with their mains in the first place. Those people are weak in constitution and should be disregarded when it comes to an argument like this. People have to put an large amount of effort to beat Metaknight? Well, you are fighting the best character in the game; if you don't want this game to be stupifyingly easy, of course you're going to have to put effort into it. You want to know what happens to those who didn't immediately switch to Metaknight and stuck with their mains? They became some pretty great players (HolyNightmare, Anther, Espy, pick any player).

An excellent recent example was Washington's monthly GameClucks tournament that occurred in June, during the weekend of Genesis. The top players travelled to California to attend Genesis, and when the tournament actually occurred, seven of the top eight players used Metaknight in their later matches (switching to him when their opponents did), and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in doubles were all double Metaknight teams. These results are unusually saturdated with Metaknights compared to average Washington results. What happened? As players lost matches, they switched to their Metaknight secondaries, allowing them to beat players at the same skill level, unless those players switched to Metaknight in return.

Why are we bringing this up as a point? Obviously, it doesn't concern high level players directly. Yet, the problem that arises is that as people switch to Metaknight to surpass the players in their skill pool due to his ease of use, players get frustrated. As people switch to Metaknight to beat Metaknight (or pick him up as a secondary), the tournament scene at lower to middle ends becomes overly saturated with the character, and some players end up quitting in frustration (or, of course, maining Metaknight).

Oh boo-hoo, should we give them a cookie and a lollipop? I hope these frustrated players aren't trying other fighting games as well. Those tournaments might give them a rude awakening. We can't baby these people just because they have problems fighting the best and most overused character in the game. They have to know that if they want to get anywhere in a fighting game, they have to overcome these obstacles. If they don't want to, the community doesn't want them.

8. The community favors a ban.

It is important to note that the majority of the Smash Bros community has voted in favor of banning Metaknight in three different polls. If Metaknight is banned, he must obviously have a strong effect on high level play- but as the SBR, it is important to make note of the community as a whole's view on the character, and factor this into our decision.

Do not forget the public viewpoint:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200718
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205886
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230733

As Brawl progresses, more regions report Metaknight problems. Regions like Puerto Rico have quelled it with a soft ban on Metaknight counterpicks ("soft bans" are social stigmas against picking a character. In the case of Puerto Rico, people who switch to Metaknight during their counterpick find their names recorded and announced after the tournament, discouraging them from doing so), and many other regions similarly look down upon Metaknight mains. Other regions, such as SoCal, NorCal, Washington, Arizona, or Eastern Canada find their players and tournaments gradually becoming more MK-centric, and support the ban (several of these regions running MK-banned tournament series).

The community's view is a very important point that cannot be overlooked.

This is a very good statement, the one I bolded. However, banning Metaknight because the community favors it only proves that that ones in charge of a community will break if people whine loudly enough, and it will destroy any chance of credibility. People who treat this game like a serious fighting game (like I do) will be outraged, disgusted, or worse- they will quit the game. Who would you rather quit, the group of scrubs that can't get past a matchup everyone knows they need to pass, or the group of people who have taken this game seriously, done whatever they can to contribute to it, and then get their balls kicked by the community when the ones leading the community cater to the first group of scrubs.?

9. Meta Knight is already clearly bannable, but we have artificial and unclear rules in place to keep him in the game.

Without rules clearly targeting Meta Knight, he would be literally undefeatable.

The infinite dimensional cape clearly breaks Brawl entirely, for reasons that don’t need to be explained here. We have removed it using a rule, but it’s very hard to detect and enforce. You cannot really tell if someone taps the c-stick up once or twice to gain that extra inch of distance they need to escape or hit a perfect edgehog. Then there is the Extended Dimensional Cape, which while not infinite, can be used to stall out a match. If you’re in trouble, simply use the Extended Dimensional Cape and cross the level safely. Once you get there, come out of cape and go back to the other side using Extended Dimensional Cape again. Throw in a technically illegal but impossible to detect tap up on the c-stick and you’ve got a completely safe way to cross the stage.

Moves that are completely broken need to be removed. No one's arguing that.

We have rules in place to prevent planking and stalling, which have become big issues. We’ve tried various amounts of ledgegrabs being allowed, but planking and stalling have remained issues. Meta Knight players have found ways around these rules, and have stalled. See Dapuffster v Plank at Apex, or, more recently, Dojo v DEHF at Genesis for examples of stalling that cannot be limited by any reasonable rule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcOIFmXgMqI

Sorry, what was that? Other characters can do this too? Inconceivable!

Air camping or air planking, whatever you prefer to call it, makes many matchups unwinnable, and not just against low tier characters. Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Marth, Donkey Kong, Lucario, and to a lesser extent Wario and Snake, have their matchups tilted strongly towards Meta Knight’s favor because of air camping, and are all in B tier or higher. These techniques that skirt the lines of the rules but cannot be truly banned or limited make Meta Knight a broken character worthy of a ban.

When Metaknights start winning the majority of matchups this way, I'll start listening. Last time I checked, top players were able to beat top Metaknights with Wario, Snake, Falco, Ice Climbers and Marth.

Over time, TOs have continually refined their rules to try to reduce Metaknight's dominance of various aspects of the game. Early on, stages like Norfair were banned primarily due to Metaknight's abuse of ledge camping. MK mains responded by learning abusing the ledge on every stage. TOs responded with the ledgegrab rules, which MKs responded to by stalling out their ledgegrabs. TOs have begun to lower edgegrab limits, and now MKs are beginning to abuse aircamping. The character will continue to cause problems as long as he is legal.

So TO's cater to fools who can't learn the Metaknight matchup, and when Metaknight mains are able to create strategies to stall out the game and mains of other characters can't figure it out, it seems to me that the Metaknight players are just plain smarter than those other folks. Someone's old signature used to be something from Plank about how he can't plank Azen because Azen's too smart and beats it. When Metaknight mains start figuring out new strategies, other players either need to learn how to combat them or simply give up, hopeless in the fact that they can't get over the hump of beating the best and most overused character in the game and reach the next level of play. Hey, many people are just not cut out to be top players, doesn't mean we have to bring the top level over to them.

Conclusion:

With these points in consideration, we believe that Metaknight as a character is:
(A) Within our community's banning standards
(B) Detrimental to Brawl's metagame
(C) Has a negative impact on our community

and thus, we believe that Metaknight should be banned.

To conclude my arguments, I make a lot of comparisons to other fighting games, saying that Metaknight is just as beatable for the other characters in the game as the best characters of other fighting games are beatable. I say that being the best and the most overused character in the game does not translate to being ban-worthy, and that learning to combat the best character in the game as well as the most overused one (they just happen to coincide in Brawl) is a natural part of any fighting game and a hurdle that must be crossed if anyone wants to reach a high level of play. If you feel that my reasons that comparisons between Brawl and other fighting games are uncapable of changing your minds about that particular matter, then the pro-ban side and I are just going to be in eternal disagreement, with neither side budging. Looking at these aspects, though, I believe that Metaknight is beatable in every aspect of the game and if it's going to negatively affect the community, tough luck. Maybe we can weed out the whiners and focus on becoming a more refined, more focused community.

 

[GC274]

This thread is so entertaining lol. First post =3, question though, does Community have final vote? Or SBR?

 

[da K.I.D.]

this question only has the vaguest of vague relations to this argument.

Does banning algol make people who play SC4 stupid/scrubby/*******/whatever?

 

[MarKO X]

stuff

This was a logical argument that solved everything.
Like, why did I want MK banned in the 1st place?

 

[Reizilla]

You people are going about this all wrong. The correct response is: 99% of all good, Melee, doubles teams have an Isai on them.

On topic: It seems as though pro-ban seems to not realize that MK isn't inherently worthy of a ban and thus, anti-ban doesn't need to make a case against a ban, but merely needs to disprove/defend against arguments that pro-ban feels justify a ban, that of which they have none, leading this discussion to a stand-still/flame war.

Also, Pierce, you're my hero.

 

[fkacyan]

thats like saying Diddy hasnt shouldnt and wont lose on final D cus its his best stage.

doing well on a stage =/= auto win

also, madd props to Bob Saget! for stepping his game up in relation to internet debates

Pro-ban can't seem to decide if it wants to argue theory or realism.

based on the fact that the usual pro-ban argument deals with theory and not actual results, using two equally skilled players, if a matchup is an advantage for a character they will win it. Thus, if MK really had such matchup advantages, he would always win.

Realistically, of course, that won't happen, but... In the context of the pro-ban argument...

 

[WheelOfFish]

If we ban Metaknight, then the tier won't change at all. Snake will be awfully lonely at the top. You can argue that Metaknight is clearly the best, but Snake is clearly second best. If you ban stupid chaingrabs and infinites, well, the tier would be a lot different and make a ton more characters viable than if you banned MK.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He does not do well on every stage against every character. If this were the case, nobody would ever take a match off of M2K, ever.

1. M2K is human, he isn't perfect, remember when he got spiked by Ally's Fair? Stop bringing up players. Its fine to a certain amount but this is crossing it.

2.He has no bad stage. He suffers no disadvantages from any of them. FD is his worst in that he gains the least benefits.

3. MK does have the best tools to win. Which is why he is the best character in the game. I think this topic has people running short in terms of patience.

The ratio's provided merely act as guidelines and assume equal skill, it isn't based on realistic behavior which has millions of different variables and factors. Which is why using realism is flawed when taken to such an extent. it is fine to say, Sonic's Side B retains his options. It is not correct ot say, they produce mindgames.

 

[Rykoshet]

Burden of proof on pro-ban.

We gave you a concrete criteria, now it's time to pony up the evidence that MK fits that criteria.

For one, this is a presumptuous position to make. The burden of proof exists on both ends, keeping the status quo is just easier to do than changing it so it's already a greater effort on the pro-ban side to bring something up. I already brought up the inherent balance that the metagame will see if meta were removed. At no point did I complain about his being overpowered or whatever. If the other side (in this case RDK) wishes to miss it completely then act like nothing was said, that's as much on him as it is on us to provide the slightest bit of proof. You put one side in a position to HAVE to prove something with absolutely no obligation on your end to do the same then don't even do what little reading is required. You don't even have to respond under your presumption, all you have to do is read and THAT isn't even being accomplished.

And a pathetic attempt to insult me/make me feel stupid over the internet helps? K.

Who the **** cares about helping? You sure as hell don't. You said something dumb, and as a result you were called on it. If you were intent on helping you wouldn't have spat out that tripe in the first place.

Someone is mad. I herd that maeks u betur. :bigthumbu

Someone is a moron, I hear that makes you blissful :bigthumbu

If we ban Metaknight, then the tier won't change at all. Snake will be awfully lonely at the top.

Snake has top and high tier disadvantaged matchups, you can't be serious. The issue right now is that snake is safe because ANY character that may stand a chance against hin on the way up has to get past far MORE meta knights just to win the one snake matchup they may come across. Remove meta knight and he's suddenly stuck up ****'s creek with potential 4:6's just like every other character in the game. MK keeps snake safe, true story.

 

[Eddie G]

Lol, I love how people say not to compare Metaknight and Akuma, and yet people are quick to compare Smash (particularly Brawl in this case) to other fighting games. It's so ironic.

How about this? Shut the **** up about other fighting games and their characters. This is SMASH, this is a DIFFERENT GAME, we do not necessarily HAVE TO abide by the standards that they set and/or follow.

Honestly...how long are people going to dwell on that mindset? Think outside of the box for once.

 

[Anth0ny]

1337 votes for the ban.

It's a sign!

 

[fkacyan]

this question only has the vaguest of vague relations to this argument.

Does banning algol make people who play SC4 stupid/scrubby/*******/whatever?

SC4 is an awful game to begin with.

BTW, @ whoever: KB's avatar is almost certainly custom-made.

 

[MBlaze]

1337 votes for the ban.

It's a sign!

Lmfao down with MK.

 

[POKE40]

This thread is so entertaining lol. First post =3, question though, does Community have final vote? Or SBR?

Welcome to the smashboards <3

well here is how it works:
1/3 of the vote is community
2/3 is the SBR

but the SBR has the larger vote power.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lol, I love how people say not to compare Metaknight and Akuma, and yet people are quick to compare Smash (particularly Brawl in this case) to other fighting games. It's so ironic.

How about this? Shut the **** up about other fighting games and their characters. This is SMASH, this is a DIFFERENT GAME, we do not necessarily HAVE TO abide by the standards that they set and/or follow.

Honestly...how long are people going to dwell on that mindset? Think outside of the box for once.

You make my head hurt. Really.
The isue is in regards to the criteria concerning a ban.
Look at ANY game. ANY of them.
yu-gi-oh
magic
Street fighter 2 turbo


They ban for the EXACT same reason.
THe criteria regarding the subject in question is banned if they overcentralize to a great degree.
The comparison is completely valid as long as it compares the issues themselves and is not a direct comparison.

 

[Beta Knight]

1337 votes for the ban.

It's a sign!

That Meta Knight is too 1337 to be banned?

 

[Eddie G]

BTW, @ whoever: KB's avatar is almost certainly custom-made.

It is, but I didn't notice if anyone asked.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol, I love how people say not to compare Metaknight and Akuma, and yet people are quick to compare Smash (particularly Brawl in this case) to other fighting games. It's so ironic.

How about this? Shut the **** up about other fighting games and their characters. This is SMASH, this is a DIFFERENT GAME, we do not necessarily HAVE TO abide by the standards that they set and/or follow.

Honestly...how long are people going to dwell on that mindset? Think outside of the box for once.

True but the game Smash is a lot harder to set rules on as there are x10 more variables than in standard fighting games, making many points in this thread vague and with not enough substance.

 

[Anth0ny]

You make my head hurt. Really.
The isue is in regards to the criteria concerning a ban.
Look at ANY game. ANY of them.
yu-gi-oh
magic
Street fighter 2 turbo


They ban for the EXACT same reason.
THe criteria regarding the subject in question is banned if they overcentralize to a great degree.
The comparison is completely valid as long as it compares the issues themselves and is not a direct comparison.

MK is Chaos Emperor Dragon.

I remember that broken mother ****er when I played competitively. Everyone wanted him banned so badly

 

[Melomaniacal]

You make my head hurt. Really.
The isue is in regards to the criteria concerning a ban.
Look at ANY game. ANY of them.
yu-gi-oh
magic
Street fighter 2 turbo


They ban for the EXACT same reason.
THe criteria regarding the subject in question is banned if they overcentralize to a great degree.
The comparison is completely valid as long as it compares the issues themselves and is not a direct comparison.

Beat me to it, thanks.

 

[Clai]

You make my head hurt. Really.
The isue is in regards to the criteria concerning a ban.
Look at ANY game. ANY of them.
yu-gi-oh
magic
Street fighter 2 turbo


They ban for the EXACT same reason.
THe criteria regarding the subject in question is banned if they overcentralize to a great degree.
The comparison is completely valid as long as it compares the issues themselves and is not a direct comparison.

You're amazing.

+I knew I shouldn't have made my response to the first post on here. Board moves too fast. The people who are actually going to care what I say about it are going to pass right through it without realizing it.

+In the middle of me writing that response, Inui gets banned. What the heck happened?

 

[Divinokage]

You're amazing.

+I knew I shouldn't have made my response to the first post on here. Board moves too fast. The people who are actually going to care what I say about it are going to pass right through it without realizing it.

+In the middle of me writing that response, Inui gets banned. What the heck happened?

He was being mean and elitist like usual lol.. however in the wrong thread.

 

[Eddie G]

You make my head hurt. Really.
The isue is in regards to the criteria concerning a ban.
Look at ANY game. ANY of them.
yu-gi-oh
magic
Street fighter 2 turbo


They ban for the EXACT same reason.
THe criteria regarding the subject in question is banned if they overcentralize to a great degree.
The comparison is completely valid as long as it compares the issues themselves and is not a direct comparison.

I make your head hurt? Like I just ****ing said, THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX, or at least try to. Is that really so impossible? Are you honestly THAT dense?

I'm starting to think that all of these logic fueled arguments have made some people become unable to conceive any mention/course of action which may not seem logical AT FIRST. Sorry Shadowlink, but I feel that it is just impossible for us to communicate on this matter.

 

[momochuu]

No one can have my avatar. ;x

 

[Reizilla]

@all the people saying there is absolutely no comparison of smash to other fighting games:
There is comparison because what people seem to be complaining about the most is that match-up ratios are match-up ratios. A 6-4 in one game is the same as a 6-4 in any other fighting game. Brawl doesn't have anything other than counter-picking a stage (and only to some extent, thanks to the system) that makes their 6-4s harder than Street Fighter's 6-4s. On the point of counter-picking, you can even make a case that it helps battle MK because of the striking and counter-picking to make that 6-4 a little easier, whereas there's absolutely nothing you can do to get around any advantages character's have in Street Fighter, other than rely on your own skill, because every match is always the same. The difference lies more in how the community handles having a superior character than in the actual game itself.

 

[Masmasher@]

No one can have my avatar. ;x

**** IT, **** IT, **** IT lol
....please =)

 

[Divinokage]

Well, I'm just going to assume that the major part of the community is young so.. at that age (14-18), you are still developing and your ego is obviously very strong as you REALLY want to be right. It's going to settle down with age of course.. like instead of wanting the whole glorified self.. you become more humble and way more opened minded.. that is if you go on the correct path. The other path well.. you become a huge *******.

 

[Eddie G]

True but the game Smash is a lot harder to set rules on as there are x10 more variables than in standard fighting games, making many points in this thread vague and with not enough substance.

That's exactly why I brought that up. Many seem to fall back on standards set by other fighting game communities. We don't necessarily HAVE TO do this. That's all I'm saying, and in the case of Shadowlink, some can't even understand where I'm coming from in saying that.