Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Baro]

People say MK is overcentralizing the metagame. He's not overcentralizing, just centralizing.

Explain why centralizing is a bad thing, and how he is OVERcentralizing, if you believe that is the case.

 

[smashmachine]

the ONLY real question left in this thread is whether the poll will give Yes 1 or 2 votes in the SBR MK ban poll

you mean 2 or 3

and its 2/3 of the SBR votes needed for the ban, not this poll (@ whatever guy who said they need 2/3 here)

 

[Rykoshet]

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[AvaricePanda]

doing a shuttle loop, then a glide attack into an item usage is VERY good. MK has some of the best setups for item usages in the game, but again, if you're already holding on to an item, these situations are avoided.

Two words: Diddy Kong.

 

[Baro]

Two words: Diddy Kong.

haha, I hear you, man

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Lmao, are you trying to sass me on an issue as little and insignificant as whether or not Luigi has a counter to MK's nado? Please.

He asked if Luigi has a counter. I told him "shield nado and punish with upB", because not only have I seen Luigis do it offline, online, teams and singles, Boss and scrubs many times.

You asked if it's guaranteed....How the **** should I know? I don't play Luigi. I DO know that I've seen it done in pro matches vs pro players in pro settings.

To go further, I DID provide scenarios in which it would be guaranteed in the event that he works like Mario. DOES he work like Mario? Quite possibly, since the majority of his moves have the same properties, which is why I brought it up. Am I 100% sure? No. Does it matter enough for me to make a post this long about it? Probably not.

But I did anyways...because I'm an internetz hardass

You refuted the point that some characters didn't have tornado counters and luigi was the example. But you where wrong when you did that and can only give IF examples for when a MK screws up.

 

[ThreeThreeThree]

Why does diddy kong not own a pair of pants?

 

[Baro]

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[ThreeThreeThree]

Guys, what's an infraction?

 

[momochuu]

Guys, what's an infraction?

That thing I just gave you.

 

[Baro]

That thing I just gave you.

 

[ThreeThreeThree]

Thanks, you're so nice! What do I use them for?

 

[Chaos0419]

I agree with Famous...

Close this thread and just leave the poll active. Everyone's already heard every argument for both sides.

 

[Shao-tan]

The diversity argument itself is pretty dumb. Metaknight doesn't have near as many **** matchups as Dedede, G&W and Snake have and 60:40 is pretty winnable.

Also, some people here seem to have mistaked Metaknight with Mew2King, which is pretty dumb. If someone could consistently win against the best player in the world, he wouldn't be the best player in the world. Open your eyes.

 

[Baro]

People say MK is overcentralizing the metagame. He's not overcentralizing, just centralizing.

Explain why centralizing is a bad thing, and how he is OVERcentralizing, if you believe that is the case.

Someone please answer. Seriously. Every game is centralized in its own way. If Brawl is centralized in the way that it's all about getting around MK, what's so bad about that?

 

[phi1ny3]

Thanks, you're so nice! What do I use them for?

Leveling up to a ban of course.
Please haxors the thread and spam as quickly as possible so we don't have to deal with your idiodicy we can give you the honor of "banned status".
Edit: Yes, he won the game, such a scrub pro.

 

[Matador]

You refuted the point that some characters didn't have tornado counters and luigi was the example. But you where wrong when you did that and can only give IF examples for when a MK screws up.

Was I wrong? Usmash doesn't beat MK's nado from the bottom and Luigi can't DI out of nado and Nair? I say "maybe" because I can't test it right now, but if I'm wrong, by all means crucify me now. But am I wrong?

And if we're not whoring all over theory, we'll realize that shielding the nado and punishing with jab upB DOES work, just like jab cancelling and dthrow tech chasing does.

 

[Tyr_03]

Mods should close this thread. No one has anything to say. Just let people vote and be done with it.

 

[Eddie G]

I did awhile ago. I really don't feel like getting it, but it was along the lines of:

Banning MK would still be admitting that he's unbeatable regardless of the intention backing the ban. Be it promoting diversity or simply to even out tourney results (which is stupid btw. Snake's gap from MK is as large as the gap between him and the next person behind him), MK isn't unbeatable and many have proven it.

Instead of banning him to get a more diverse circle of high tiers winning tourneys, everyone should get BETTER like Neo and Holy and a bunch of other pros beating MKs without resorting to using him. Thus, making us a stronger community as a whole, and giving more depth to this game.

The first underlined portion is total horse ****. You're basically telling a group why they're doing something regardless of their reason which is ridiculous.

The second underlined portion is all I ever see the anti-ban argument boil down to. It's getting old and still shows no appeal to me. Bring something new to the table already. Besides, if he's so beatable, why isn't the majority of anti-ban proving this very point themselves instead of leaning on a small handful of players that can consistently beat MK, hence their nickname "MK slayers"? Now THAT would make the point more convincing to me. But of course, all I ever see is the redundant dependency on the feats of a few and the spewing of numbers from the anti-ban side. I still have an open mind on the matter, but your side fails to convince me time and time again.

The third underlined portion is just pure LOL. Don't even use the word "depth" on behalf of your argument, please.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Yes, because obviously, you have to be good and be a pro to have an opinion or a reasonable argument. No one will listen to you otherwise, that's just silly to think of.

While the second underlined portion is a common argument among some anti-ban people, why doesn't it work? You see mains of other characters beating MKs in tournament, such as Neo, mikeHAZE, Ally, Atomsk, among any others. At top levels of play, it shows that he's obviously beatable.

Would somebody please directly respond to this?

And the pro-ban side refuses to directly address my question.

Why is a ban necessary now? We've had 3 of these threads. In each thread, pro-ban talked of how the meta-game would be overcentralized with MK, about how he has no even match-ups, and how leaving him in would kill the competitive scene. It's over a half a year since then, and Meta Knight's tournament dominance has decreased. Match-ups such as ICs and Diddy have slowly been crawling to even, possibly disadvantageous in the future. And the competitive scene is still quite alive. The two biggest recent Brawl tournaments, APEX and Genesis, both had no signs of MK overcentralizing, and there is no proof that he will in the future.

Why do you put up the same argument? Why is a ban necessary now when things are clearly getting better?

 

[Brinzy]

Actually, I shouldn't have voted. I just realized how much I don't give two squirts of piss.

 

[Sosuke]

I didn't even see this the first time. >_>

Than that, and this is where I point out that such was obvious but players from any region can practice with high caliber players from said region with little cost. I was "lucky" enough to live in the same region as where the tourney was held, whereas people who lived on the west coast were lucky enough to live close to genesis. Either way there are high level players all over the country, it doesn't cost much to practice with any of them.

People don't have the same opportunities as you? It was a hell of a lot of money just to go from SoCal to NorCal.
Congrats on getting practice at COT4. What, one tournament? Did you get practice at Genesis? Bio?

And I consider peacenik ridiculously idealistic views on things that have a financial result immature, to each their own.

... Ok that came from no where. o_O
Woah personal insults that come from assumptions of ones personality based on nothing more then fabrications of ones typing style.
Get outta here

Last I checked, peaceniks didn't debate for one side like I am. I don't even come off as one?

Last time I checked, playing a mediocre video game doesn't earn you much money. You act like moneys a big freaking deal in this game compared to actual jobs that earn you money. If you're going to say "money is always a big deal", invest your time in something that you can actually GET money for.
Making money from a video game. Wow. Like I said before, get a job.
If you want to make money, that's what you do. The time you spend practicing/ actually going to tournaments can be better spent outside doing stuff that actually guarantees you MORE money. And guarantees you money in the first place.

I've addressed everything up to this point, the one thing I neglected was eventually covered not only by myself, but by a crew mate. It's over anakin, I have the high ground.

Might want to take a look back at the earlier posts. =)

Run for the hell of it because it's good for you?

Great answer. Got a one that actually answers my question?




Edit:
Ok, this is getting really off topic. It doesn't matter since we're on the same side of the actual debate anyway.

 

[Eddie G]

Yes, because obviously, you have to be good and be a pro to have an opinion or a reasonable argument. No one will listen to you otherwise, that's just silly to think of.

While the second underlined portion is a common argument among some anti-ban people, why doesn't it work? You see mains of other characters beating MKs in tournament, such as Neo, mikeHAZE, Ally, Atomsk, among any others. At top levels of play, it shows that he's obviously beatable.

Would somebody please directly respond to this?

It's called LEADING BY EXAMPLE.

Again, I ask, why isn't the majority of the anti-ban group proving their own case? I'd like to see some constant tit-for-tat action with MK from other characters when it comes to first/second place, not these "once in a while" occasions that you all seem to hold onto so dearly.

Does Ally ring a bell?

Oh wait, he's a great player in a class of his own anyway. He and M2K are in a league that many of us will never reach, be it pro-ban OR anti-ban players. Again, lead by example if he's really so beatable, anti-ban...

Logic AND theorycraft can both kiss my ***. It's about what gets done then and there.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

avarice, read the pro ban argument and you'll answer all your questions

especially taht last one of yours about genesis and apex.

oh and praxis's post after the first one. That'll answer all the questions that i thought were answered in the first one, but misremembered.

Or you could read around page 30, i'd bet they asked the same question back then, when people cared about this thread... (which means better answers too )

 

[Matador]

The first underlined portion is total horse ****. You're basically telling a group why they're doing something regardless of their reason which is ridiculous.

....*sigh*...Please think before you post. Like...really try to sink your teeth into what I'm saying before you try to bite my head off...

That has nothing to do with what you said earlier. Every sane person knows that Meta Knight is, without a doubt, beatable.

So long as he still has no bad matchups, there are going to be people wanting him banned.

It has everything to do with it. Banning MK means that he's over-centralizing the game, compelling others to use MK for bad matchups, use MK to beat MK, and consequently, become overplayed/dominate tournaments.

Even if we're banning him for the sake of promoting diversity in the game and reviving the counterpick system, those actions are a direct result of MK ruining the game by being too good and beating everyone.

If people could beat MK, there'd be no argument. We'd keep MK and still have diversity in the results. If we ban him, we're doing it for the sake of those who can't beat MK with their characters like Boss or MikeHAZE do. Rather than become good enough like them, we ban him to cater to those are frustrated because they can't win and go MK. MK wrecks Marth/ROB, yet MikeHAZE, Neo and Holy do well vs them? It makes no sense to me.

...and chip your tooth on my hard head.

The second underlined portion is all I ever see the anti-ban argument boil down to. It's getting old and still shows no appeal to me. Bring something new to the table already. Besides, if he's so beatable, why isn't the majority of anti-ban proving this very point themselves instead of leaning on a small handful of players that can consistently beat MK, hence their nickname "MK slayers"? Now THAT would make the point more convincing to me. But of course, all I ever see is the redundant dependency on the feats of a few and the spewing of numbers from the anti-ban side. I still have an open mind on the matter, but your side fails to convince me time and time again.

Okay, let's take a different approach since you just so blatantly told me "I don't like that rebuttal, it makes too much sense. Use another one I can find faults with"

If everyone were as good as the pro players who don't play MK, would we need to ban MK? Metaknight would remain the best character but would there still be diversity? Would MK still shutdown as many characters as the matchup threads say he does? Would there be four God-forsaken polls on whether or not he needs to be banned?

The third underlined portion is just pure LOL. Don't even use the word "depth" on behalf of your argument, please.

.......Wow...

Okay, tell me why you wouldn't use "depth" to describe different levels of difficulty and skill when it comes to playing a competitive game?

 

[Divinokage]

Last time I checked, playing a mediocre video game doesn't earn you much money. You act like moneys a big freaking deal in this game compared to actual jobs that earn you money. If you're going to say "money is always a big deal", invest your time in something that you can actually GET money for.
Making money from a video game. Wow. Like I said before, get a job.
If you want to make money, that's what you do. The time you spend practicing/ actually going to tournaments can be better spent outside doing stuff that actually guarantees you MORE money. And guarantees you money in the first place.

That is if you suck.. if you are really good then making money out of just smash is great. Unfortunately, not everyone can be godly which is why there 30-50 top players and the rest are scrubs. That's how it is in fighting... elites and scrubs.. it's always gonna be there because not everyone has the correct mindset + innate skills + wisdom/experience + adaptation + putting your god**** soul into it. That's what it takes to be a champion. Also look at Starcraft's top players.. they make millions I think? Or at EVO 2009, Daigo made like 14k just winning SF 4 lol. That's already more than one year worth of work.. I think it's well worth it.

 

[choknater]

I can't believe this is happening.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I have an idea. Let's not ban MK so we can ALL conform to top tiers. Y/N?

 

[Divinokage]

I have an idea. Let's not ban MK so we can ALL conform to top tiers. Y/N?

You could do that but you'll still lose as said above from me. =P

 

[Eddie G]

....*sigh*...Please think before you post. Like...really try to sink your teeth into what I'm saying before you try to bite my head off...



...and chip your tooth on my hard head.

Okay, let's take a different approach since you just so blatantly told me "I don't like that rebuttal, it makes too much sense. Use another one I can find faults with"

If everyone were as good as the pro players who don't play MK, would we need to ban MK? Metaknight would remain the best character but would there still be diversity? Would MK still shutdown as many characters as the matchup threads say he does? Would there be four God-forsaken polls on whether or not he needs to be banned?

.......Wow...

Okay, tell me why you wouldn't use "depth" to describe different levels of difficulty and skill when it comes to playing a competitive game?

Who knows? We still might have to, but that's not my point. I'll just continue to say LEAD BY EXAMPLE and leave it at that. You all keep saying he's beatable, so let's up the percentage of that happening, ok?

 

[Red Arremer]

I can't believe this is happening.

Yea, I know. It's awful.

 

[JOE!]

Question:

If Ally, etc have proven to beat top MKs on occasion in big tournies, where MK is also prominent withing the top 8 or so of said tourneys, and in many others he more clearly dominates (others make top 8, but it is usually a MK winning, or highly saturated with MKs), why is the argument for teh Anti-Ban side focused on the minority of when the top MKs ar beat?

 

[Shao-tan]

avarice, read the pro ban argument and you'll answer all your questions

especially taht last one of yours about genesis and apex.

oh and praxis's post after the first one. That'll answer all the questions that i thought were answered in the first one, but misremembered.

Or you could read around page 30, i'd bet they asked the same question back then, when people cared about this thread... (which means better answers too )

Pro-ban's argument was already utterly destroyed by Amazing Ampharos, and the point to be made is: A Snake plater won two major tournaments which the best Metaknight player in the world attended. This must be of some meaning. Why is a ban necessary now when things are clearly getting better?(AvaricePanda's quoting)

 

[Red Arremer]

Question:

If Ally, etc have proven to beat top MKs on occasion in big tournies, where MK is also prominent withing the top 8 or so of said tourneys, and in many others he more clearly dominates (others make top 8, but it is usually a MK winning, or highly saturated with MKs), why is the argument for teh Anti-Ban side focused on the minority of when the top MKs ar beat?

So in order to be not considered as overcentralizing, the best character of the game mustn't to be in the Top placings of a tournament?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Just saying, a lot of people, like me, that are pretty anti-ban don't post here because we don't main MK. I don't agree that he should be banned, but honestly...it just doesn't hurt me at all...So why would I bother spending time arguing it?

 

[Divinokage]

Just saying, a lot of people, like me, that are pretty anti-ban don't post here because we don't main MK. I don't agree that he should be banned, but honestly...it just doesn't hurt me at all...So why would I bother spending time arguing it?

Let's just say it's like politics.. whichever side you choose.. it's gonna be bull**** lol.

 

[Eddie G]

Just saying, a lot of people, like me, that are pretty anti-ban don't post here because we don't main MK. I don't agree that he should be banned, but honestly...it just doesn't hurt me at all...So why would I bother spending time arguing it?

You just posted here...

 

[BIG~L]

wow this is so gay, the brawl community might die becuz of this

 

[ShinoBee]

This is like Third Strike's Chun Li. Is she getting the banhammer? No.

This is like Guilty Gear's Eddie. Is he banned because so many people are complaining? No.

This ISN'T like ST's Akuma, who even in HD Remix is banned because even in that version it was hard to make him less broken. And hell, in Japan he isn't even banned.

 

[Eddie G]

This is like Third Strike's Chun Li. Is she getting the banhammer? No.

This is like Guilty Gear's Eddie. Is he banned because so many people are complaining? No.

This ISN'T like ST's Akuma, who even in HD Remix is banned because even in that version it was hard to make him less broken. And hell, in Japan he isn't even banned.

Right...because comparison is ALWAYS the best way to do business.