Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[jbandrew]

Because MK destroys variety in brawl, is way too easy to use and has been dominating tournaments far too long. Sure, dominance may be going down a BIT. But it's still overwhelming when compared to other characters placements in tournaments. When one character WINS double the amount of tournaments than the 2nd best character in the game, and then dominates the top 10's of the tournaments as well... then Houston... we have a problem

Destroys variety? He's the worst match-up for what, 3 or 4 people? 3 people that have a real better chance without him, those being Marth, Toon Link, and Peach.

Too easy to use? That's why these random scrub MKs are winning regional or really any tournaments...oh wait.


When one character wins double the amount of tournaments than the 2nd best character in the game...Marth, Melee MLG 04-05. Sure, Ken and Azen netted a lot of the wins for Marth in those events, but I coudl just discard that and say it's Marth winning a bunch of tournaments, and he's broken!!1

Dominates the top 10s of tournaments?

1 out of 8 in APEX was a pure MK main, 2 others used him as secondaries I believed.
3 out of 8 in Genesis was a pure MK main, no one using him as a secondary except DEHF for one match.

To be expected of the best character in the game.


.

Destroys variety? He's the worst match-up for what, 3 or 4 people? 3 people that have a real better chance without him, those being Marth, Toon Link, and Peach.

You're kidding right? MK doesn't have to be the WORST matchup for every character to destroy variety. Do me a favor and tell me some high or maybe even mid tiers who can compete with MK. Owait no, none can, they're all at a disadvantage.

Too easy to use? That's why these random scrub MKs are winning regional or really any tournaments...oh wait.

Oh wait... I can hand my little cousin a controller right now and he can take a stock off experienced brawlers with MK, while he wouldn't be able to do this with anyone else. Hence, he doesn't even play this game and he notices that MK is uber easy to use. It's a known fact that MK is the easiest character in the game to use, you can't debate it, you can't deny it. If you do you're just stupid.


Dominates the top 10s of tournaments?

1 out of 8 in APEX was a pure MK main, 2 others used him as secondaries I believed.
3 out of 8 in Genesis was a pure MK main, no one using him as a secondary except DEHF for one match.

^^ THIS shows that MK's placements are getting better as time passes not WORSE you intelligent person you.

MK should be banned. Nuff said.

 

[Xyro77]

You're a famous TO, you obviously know what you're doing and shouldn't have to explain it because you're Xyro!

wow. im glad you realize i cant be beaten.

 

[lordvaati]

Melee had Fox. And Fox was ******** for quite a while. Guess what? People beat him.

don't forget Shiek- ATs were practically made just to beat her.

 

[AvaricePanda]

@EternalYoshi

I read half of it and skimmed the rest, and while I'm not going to argue specifics (other than ground speed doesn't make up for not having a projectile)....

You said you destroyed anti-ban's arguments in an earlier post, but I'm not convinced with how you responded to AAs post. You quotted a large section of a good argument that AA said, and you'd respond to maybe one or two sentences of two large paragraphs, then ignore the rest of the information. I'm willing to bet that you didn't respond to half of what he actually said.

 

[Yuna]

Are you aware EVO is an actual fighting game tournament series that's been running for countless years annually? They're not going to change it, especially not for Brawl. I assume somewhere along the line you mentioned EVO being more often or less often.

What in the world does this have to do with the argument I raised?!

OK. Different games, different context. Brawl is NOT THAT FAST. Brawl is significantly more defensive that the other two. 64 is all offensive. Melee has the best balance between offense and defense and is quite fast.

How the hell does this play a part in this debate?! Brawl is slower, so therefore, MK is more bannable?! Say what?!

I noticed that MK seems to have more options than the rest of the roster in all situations, including recovery as demostrated in that video.

So what?! "Has the most options" =/= "Must be banned".

You're still merely succeeding at proving that MK is good, not that he's "too good":

 

[Sovereign]

The purpose in banning Meta Knight is what, again?

To make the game more balanced? Please...

If Meta Knight goes, the tier list won't change... He's at the top, and removing him will simply put Snake on the top, especially since Snake will be the next character to be "broken", which he already is. The only reason Meta Knight is top tier, is because his development and meta game were faster than the rest of the characters in the game. I'm sure that there is more to be discovered with the characters, and that there are characters with potential to become great counter picks for Meta Knight, like Diddy Kong. All it takes is dedication, and focuse to your own characters, instead of worrying about why this character is so flawless, and that reason being, is because the mainers of Meta Knight have found ways to make his flaws seem non-existent. Some of you for Pro-Ban should try doing the same for your own characters, and see what happens.

Some characters will never be able to efficiently cover up their flaws, but with dedication, they will develop ways to at least make it so they aren't everywhere.

Captain Falcon, for example was and still is one of the worst characters in the game, but with the discovering of grab release techs, he isn't so terrible, and that has helped his meta game grow further. There is still more to be discovered, and with that he can be played on a higher level.

Also, one character doesn't make a game unbalanced. It's the mastery of a character that most of you are complaining about. It also comes down to your BCS, otherwise known as, Brawl Common Sense. It would be great if people recognized that it's the player and not the game, giving power to the good ol' saying, "Hate the player, and not the game."

 

[Tony_]

You don't get it.

You have to have good arguments for why some CP stages can be used as Neutrals and vice versa. Nobody cares about "switching it up" if in doing so, you're going to damaging the balance of neutral-system.

Except that Brawl wasn't even balanced from day one. Sure Melee isn't balanced that well either, but its balanced to the point where character bans weren't an issue. Brawl doesn't even have any balance in it.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I did read. I tried to keep it short.
I noticed that some of the paragraphs can be responded to with the same answer I stated to another one. I didn't want to do a Great Wall of China response, but I eventually did.

 

[Sukai]

I read the OP and first reply.
It seems that the Pro-ban side constructed a powerful argument, while the anti-ban side had a lackluster presentation with some notable truths.

I'm fairly neutral and having an unbiased disposition, since there isn't a neutral vote, I decided to vote based on the more compelling argument.
Pro-ban covered many aspects, all levels of play and backed them with really good facts, including Praxis' brief guide, the Brawl Plussery's archive, and the counterpick argument.

The anti-ban side was more or less circumstantial opinion and logic, with some tournament data to back it up--which in complete honesty was it's saving grace.
However all key points were shoddily composed, skipped or was just approached all wrong (i.e. the counterpick argument).
I didn't so much feel swayed to keep Meta Knight unbanned as I was rather reading a simple documentation on why they think he should be unbanned.

The pro-ban however actually had me thinking about the situation, and I felt reasonably convinced to vote yes.
And so I did.

 

[QUIVO]

I voted no on the ban.

If MKs banned, I hope all the MK mains go to Snake. Snake will rule and then we ban him. Continue until the entire cast is banned and everyone quits brawl for melee : )

 

[lordvaati]

The purpose in banning Meta Knight is what, again?

To make the game more balanced? Please...

If Meta Knight goes, the tier list won't change... He's at the top, and removing him will simply put Snake on the top, especially since Snake will be the next character to be "broken", which he already is. The only reason Meta Knight is top tier, is because his development and meta game were faster than the rest of the characters in the game. I'm sure that there is more to be discovered with the characters, and that there are characters with potential to become great counter picks for Meta Knight, like Diddy Kong. All it takes is dedication, and focuse to your own characters, instead of worrying about why this character is so flawless, and that reason being, is because the mainers of Meta Knight have found ways to make his flaws seem non-existent. Some of you for Pro-Ban should try doing the same for your own characters, and see what happens.

Some characters will never be able to efficiently cover up their flaws, but with dedication, they will develop ways to at least make it so they aren't everywhere.

Captain Falcon, for example was and still is one of the worst characters in the game, but with the discovering of grab release techs, he isn't so terrible, and that has helped his meta game grow further. There is still more to be discovered, and with that he can be played on a higher level.

Also, one character doesn't make a game unbalanced. It's the mastery of a character that most of you are complaining about. It also comes down to your BCS, otherwise known as, Brawl Common Sense. It would be great if people recognized that it's the player and not the game, giving power to the good ol' saying, "Hate the player, and not the game."

quote for truth.

 

[fkacyan]

Are you aware EVO is an actual fighting game tournament series that's been running for countless years annually? They're not going to change it, especially not for Brawl. I assume somewhere along the line you mentioned EVO being more often or less often.

Not what he's saying. Xyro argued that tourneys get smaller because they're the "same old event" in a series (On that note, why would anybody play a game more than once? Most moronic thing I've ever seen posted here that was trying to be smart), and Yuna argued that Evo has always gotten bigger.

 

[Yuna]

Except that Brawl wasn't even balanced from day one. Sure Melee isn't balanced that well either, but its balanced to the point where character bans weren't an issue. Brawl doesn't even have any balance in it.

What part of "The balance of the neutral-system" was too Quebecois for you to comprehend?

I read the OP and first reply.
It seems that the Pro-ban side constructed a powerful argument, while the anti-ban side had a lackluster presentation with some notable truths.

I stopped reading here.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Stop whining for jebus sake. Yall just aren't good enough to overcome his few strengths. If you stopped trying to go around banning people you lose to the first time and just attempt to beat em then we wouldn't be going through all of this commotion. If MK was a broken as you said, he would never lose, its just nubs who lose to him. HAte the player, not the game.

 

[Matador]

Wow, this is ********.

Same blatantly flawed arguments over and over.

Get better at the game Pro Ban. Srsly.

 

[MarKO X]

So again, honest question to pro-ban:

Why is a ban necessary when the MK situation is getting better from half a year ago?

If the situation was better from half a year ago, this topic wouldn't exist.

The topic exists because even though you have this supposed decline in MK winnage (I say supposed because if tourneys are already banning MK then the MK winnage goes down) there is still plenty of evidence that MK is a problem, and can become a problem in the future.

You have MK with these amazing advantages that are obvious.

With 5 jumps, glides, and an upB that glides, not to mention other specials that make him nearly impossible to edgeguard (nado, drill), the game of edgeguarding against an MK? One could consider that broken, especially since that 9 times out of 10, he can harrass you off stage at will.

MK "breaks" this whole idea of "you have to be fast and weak or slow and powerful," by being, you guessed it, both. Dsmash, Nair, and UpB all have this great benefit of being these fast attacks that kill, albeit they kill in different situations, and might not even kill heavys so easily (snake comes to mind), but they still kill easily. Oh and I almost forgot, safely.

You're probably getting the general idea that MK has statistical advantages over the rest of the cast, and those statistics are basically stuff that most characters can deal with, due to human error and the like. But what makes me pro-ban is the potential problems... the things that are claimed we should "wait for it to be a problem because there is no evidence that says it it."

You have air planking, which, seems like nothing much when Plank vs Puffster happens, as it seemed to be nothing more than Plank teaching a lesser play a lesson from the way Plank put it.

Then you have Dojo vs DEHF. Top players, iirc. (lol @ iirc). Controversy ensues over the close of the set due to air planking. It was said that Dojo played the matchup exactly how it was supposed to be played, and hell, I don't blame him for that. But who's to say that Falco, 4th best character in the game according to the tier list, with pretty good jumps and lasers but got air planked, isn't the only character that can legitimately get air planked? You know all the statistics, so you tell me about it.

And then you have the EDC. Can you really measure the distance of every use of MK's DownB? Sometimes its short, sometimes it's long. An press up on the Cstick or 2, and guess what? He went farther than he was supposed to... but can you accurately measure that? Cause then everytime MK uses downB, you're gonna call for EDC, and now you're talking about banning an entire attack from MK's arsenal. Technically, you're not supposed to do that, but wutever.

Another thing I wanna address is this thing about how MK's is beatable. So is SF2Turbo's Akuma... if you not doing everything that makes Akuma broken. This is my worry. I will admit that the "current" MK isn't broken, but if MKs decided to flirt with the "stalling" rules more via aircamping and flirt with the EDC to go wherever they want, aside from already having the advantages they have, then will he be broken? No, he was always broken, it's just that people weren't doing the stuff that makes him truly broken.

 

[Johnny Citrus]

I love how anti banners have picked up the argument that Snake will be broken if mk is banned. Mk is so much better than Snake. Snake has gimpable recovery, at least a couple of slightly disadvantaged match ups, etc. Plus snake isn't good on every stage like mk is I'm pretty sure >.>

 

[AvaricePanda]

Destroys variety? He's the worst match-up for what, 3 or 4 people? 3 people that have a real better chance without him, those being Marth, Toon Link, and Peach.

You're kidding right? MK doesn't have to be the WORST matchup for every character to destroy variety. Do me a favor and tell me some high or maybe even mid tiers who can compete with MK. Owait no, none can, they're all at a disadvantage.

Snake
Wario
Diddy
Ice Climbers
Pikachu Anther

Too easy to use? That's why these random scrub MKs are winning regional or really any tournaments...oh wait.

Oh wait... I can hand my little cousin a controller right now and he can take a stock off experienced brawlers with MK, while he wouldn't be able to do this with anyone else. Hence, he doesn't even play this game and he notices that MK is uber easy to use. It's a known fact that MK is the easiest character in the game to use, you can't debate it, you can't deny it. If you do you're just stupid.

If he can take a stock off experienced brawlers, these "experienced brawlers" are HORRIBLE. He won't be able to do this with ANY character. He shouldn't be able to do this to any character. When you're fighting an MK who does really punishable things and doesn't know the basics of competitive gameplay, you aren't going to go, "CRAP I DIED BECAUSE IT'S MK LOLSSSSS"

Dominates the top 10s of tournaments?

1 out of 8 in APEX was a pure MK main, 2 others used him as secondaries I believed.
3 out of 8 in Genesis was a pure MK main, no one using him as a secondary except DEHF for one match.

^^ THIS shows that MK's placements are getting better as time passes not WORSE you intelligent person you.

MK should be banned. Nuff said.

Compare those results to hobo11 and cot4, two very large tournaments of their time half a year ago.

Consdering that Tyrant wasn't even at APEX, the difference isn't surprising. These are the two biggest recent tournaments. Compare to the two biggest recent tournaments of half a year ago, when people were screaming, "Oh no, Meta Knight!" and you'll find that the "problem" is getting better.

 

['V']

Except that Brawl wasn't even balanced from day one. Sure Melee isn't balanced that well either, but its balanced to the point where character bans weren't an issue. Brawl doesn't even have any balance in it.

And people still play it competitively. Why..?

 

[Zephil]

I voted no on the ban.

If MKs banned, I hope all the MK mains go to Snake. Snake will rule and then we ban him. Continue until the entire cast is banned and everyone quits brawl for melee : )

this would never happen... If by some reason all MK mains would change to Snake and Snake is considered worthy of ban they would bring back MK because they already saw that MK was not the main problem of the high level play vs the middle level play... there is 1 broken char in this game but never 2

 

[Sukai]

I stopped reading here.

Then why broadcast it?

 

[metaXzero]

I voted no on the ban.

If MKs banned, I hope all the MK mains go to Snake. Snake will rule and then we ban him. Continue until the entire cast is banned and everyone quits brawl for melee : )

170 pages later and we STILL get the slippery slope BS. Even the anti-ban has denounced this rubbish.

 

[Zolios]

I love how people overexaggerate how incredible MK's recovery is, when it is so easy to recover with (almost) EVERY character in the game. Auto-sweetspot edge grabbing, character specific edge advantages. Besides, you can't immediately grab the edge after nado, side doesn't auto grab the edge for short distances, shuttleloop is punishable if not used correctly on neutrals (excluding FD).

The only character in the game I would say has an immense disadvantage with recovery is Lucario, but that's the way it is with melee. You're placed in a lower tier for a worse recovery.

Anyways, on to more important matters.

Hasn't the competitive scene already tacked MK down enough? Let's see...how many things have we banned? Infinite cape glitch, stalling, planking, counterpicking FD...now you're planinng on banning him altogether. Why don't you just keep the status quo and keep demeaning MK? Ban Nado spamming, ban shuttle loop spamming, etc. It seems to be a more understandable decision then to just...get rid of him.

 

[Yuna]

Mk is so much better than Snake.

I stopped reading here.

And people still play it competitively. Why..?

Fanboyism.

Then why broadcast it?

To point out that that line was so ridiculous I gave up all hope that what followed would be in any way logical.

 

[Palpi]

ddd and olimar are worse for samus than meta is so..........lol

And results are results. Im sorry if you dont understand that. Ive been running events since 2005(and smaller ones in 2003) so i know what im doing. You can accept it or you cant. I dont give a **** about you or your kind.


SKY: hes not a TO or if he is hes a very minor one. he has nothing to say

Oh wait guys, nevermind, he knows what he is doing.

 

[DanGR]

Oh wait... I can hand my little cousin a controller right now and he can take a stock off experienced brawlers with MK

Ummm...

No.

 

[memphischains]

The only character in the game I would say has an immense disadvantage with recovery is Lucario, but that's the way it is with melee. You're placed in a lower tier for a worse recovery.

Wtf? You are so wrong on so many levels.

According to you, Falco has a better recovery than Samus. Melee has nothing to do with this argument, neither does any other fighting game.

And your Lucario claim is also untrue

 

[Johnny Citrus]

I love how people overexaggerate how incredible MK's recovery is, when it is so easy to recover with (almost) EVERY character in the game. Auto-sweetspot edge grabbing, character specific edge advantages. Besides, you can't immediately grab the edge after nado, side doesn't auto grab the edge for short distances, shuttleloop is punishable if not used correctly on neutrals (excluding FD).

The only character in the game I would say has an immense disadvantage with recovery is Lucario, but that's the way it is with melee. You're placed in a lower tier for a worse recovery.

Anyways, on to more important matters.

Hasn't the competitive scene already tacked MK down enough? Let's see...how many things have we banned? Infinite cape glitch, stalling, planking, counterpicking FD...now you're planinng on banning him altogether. Why don't you just keep the status quo and keep demeaning MK? Ban Nado spamming, ban shuttle loop spamming, etc. It seems to be a more understandable decision then to just...get rid of him.

Are you kidding lol? No one's recovery is nearly as good as mk's. Lucario? lol olimar's is even worse.

Mk's recovery makes a joke out of everyone elses. Shuttleloop, 2 glides, all those jumps and not to mention his aerials like dair make his recovery safe from other characters since he'll just gimp them if they try to gimp him.

 

[Palpi]

Melo and I recently came to the conclusion that at a low level of serious competitive play Snake is easier to use that metaknight. Obviously many of you may disagree, but you should think about it.

One of the best statistics from AA's post is that Marth in melee had more overall tournament placings ( in %'s) than metaknight....or something of the sort lol

Someone banned cp'ing FD?..

 

[QUIVO]

It was a joke kids : p

I wouldn't mind MK banned, but I don't think he's broken enough to be...
It's just annoying seeing all these kids *****/moan/whine/complain about MK.

 

[SnowballBob33]

You don't need to be SBR to realize MK is fair. Ally beats him like every single day he plays him. As long as Ally is alive to beat M2k, how can you ban metaknight. Just get as good as Ally and stop johning

 

[AvaricePanda]

If the situation was better from half a year ago, this topic wouldn't exist.

The topic exists because even though you have this supposed decline in MK winnage (I say supposed because if tourneys are already banning MK then the MK winnage goes down) there is still plenty of evidence that MK is a problem, and can become a problem in the future.

You have MK with these amazing advantages that are obvious.

With 5 jumps, glides, and an upB that glides, not to mention other specials that make him nearly impossible to edgeguard (nado, drill), the game of edgeguarding against an MK? One could consider that broken, especially since that 9 times out of 10, he can harrass you off stage at will.

MK "breaks" this whole idea of "you have to be fast and weak or slow and powerful," by being, you guessed it, both. Dsmash, Nair, and UpB all have this great benefit of being these fast attacks that kill, albeit they kill in different situations, and might not even kill heavys so easily (snake comes to mind), but they still kill easily. Oh and I almost forgot, safely.

You're probably getting the general idea that MK has statistical advantages over the rest of the cast, and those statistics are basically stuff that most characters can deal with, due to human error and the like. But what makes me pro-ban is the potential problems... the things that are claimed we should "wait for it to be a problem because there is no evidence that says it it."

You have air planking, which, seems like nothing much when Plank vs Puffster happens, as it seemed to be nothing more than Plank teaching a lesser play a lesson from the way Plank put it.

Then you have Dojo vs DEHF. Top players, iirc. (lol @ iirc). Controversy ensues over the close of the set due to air planking. It was said that Dojo played the matchup exactly how it was supposed to be played, and hell, I don't blame him for that. But who's to say that Falco, 4th best character in the game according to the tier list, with pretty good jumps and lasers but got air planked, isn't the only character that can legitimately get air planked? You know all the statistics, so you tell me about it.

And then you have the EDC. Can you really measure the distance of every use of MK's DownB? Sometimes its short, sometimes it's long. An press up on the Cstick or 2, and guess what? He went farther than he was supposed to... but can you accurately measure that? Cause then everytime MK uses downB, you're gonna call for EDC, and now you're talking about banning an entire attack from MK's arsenal. Technically, you're not supposed to do that, but wutever.

Another thing I wanna address is this thing about how MK's is beatable. So is SF2Turbo's Akuma... if you not doing everything that makes Akuma broken. This is my worry. I will admit that the "current" MK isn't broken, but if MKs decided to flirt with the "stalling" rules more via aircamping and flirt with the EDC to go wherever they want, aside from already having the advantages they have, then will he be broken? No, he was always broken, it's just that people weren't doing the stuff that makes him truly broken.

Please stop repeating yourself and ignoring my posts.

Plank vs. Puffster shouldn't have happened. Diddy has the tools to beat an air-camping MK. Period.

Dojo vs. DEHF, do you honestly know enough about? Do you honestly think that DEHF practiced how to beat air-camping MKs well? Do you honestly think that this match shows that Falco can't beat it, even though it was only one match, and to my current knowledge, DEHF was very hesitant to approach?

You don't ban things because they COULD be a problem in the FUTURE when there is no evidence to support that. Why? Because suppose you ban it, and you're wrong? Then congratulations, you would have unjustly banned a character because you were too impatient to wait and see if these things would actually be a problem.

IDC is banned. Period. EDC? Lol, what would you even use that for? To retreat? To stall? You realize that it has punishable start-up and ending lag, AND you can predict and chase them out of it?

What do you mean supposed? Apex. Genesis. Have you seen the results? MK banned tournaments don't affect Ankoku's ranking list, as he only takes tournaments that go from the official S.B.R. ruleset. But I'm not even talking about that Compare the results of Apex and Genesis to hobo11 and cot4. It isn't that hard to figure out that there's much less MK dominance.

Stop giving a general summary of what MK can do, make it sound "scary", and try to pass it off as an argument. Stop avoiding my counterpoints to your actual argument.

 

[Sukai]

To point out that that line was so ridiculous I gave up all hope that what followed would be in any way logical.

It's called opinion, why should anyone care how illogical you think it is?

 

[talkingbeatles]

Anybody who says that a child can pick up MK and take a stock off and experienced player is wrong. I wanted to say you were ********... but that would be mean. Anyway, a person who has never played smash before, picking up MK
will kill themselves. They will drill, or nado of the stage and die. I promise, promise, promise you.

With Snake however, they'll just tilt, (because they don't know what smashes are,) and you will cry, because Snake's tilts are awesome.

If you give them Kirby, they'll have a lot of fun playing.

 

[Palpi]

i Wouldn't Mind Mk Banned, But I Don't Think He's Broken Enough To Be...
It's Just Annoying Seeing All These Kids *****/moan/whine/complain About Mk.

I Get You Man!

 

[ETWIST51294]

And people still play it competitively. Why..?

Why do people still play Marvel vs Capcom 2?

 

[Suspect]

Brawl is a super defensive campy *** game

we need mk

 

[Zolios]

Also, obviously the ban chain wouldn't happen, because if every character was seen as broken, then that means every character is equal.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

rob saiz hi

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I know you did your homework Yuna, but almost all of the people who DO bring up Melee and 64 have not done their homework and have improperly tried to compare the situation to a previous one. I want them to stop doing that.

To be honest, I really don't care if MK is banned or not, but the anti-ban's side of the argument on the OP was so weak that it prompted to vote yes since there wasn't a "Don't Care" option.