forced design

[Fortress]

Reading through a few of these later replies, I do think that everybody has made some valid points. One thing that I can definitely agree with Vro on, is the fact that not every move needs a specific response to a specific situation. I don't want to use the Ike example, as personally, I like that Ike has options when in the bottom scope, and has options for an approach.

What I'm saying is that a few people are rapping about what Link could use in terms of Bow improvements, and what I'm noticing is that it might not be the Bow itself that could use improving; it's an attack that's not really used for going into comboing, and it should probably stay that way, it doesn't need to have that option.

That's just my take on the 'not every move needs a response to every other move' opinion on things.

 

[666blaziken]

The thing about Pam's design is that it uses smash bros melee's enviornment, so offence is rewarded. This isn't that much different in melee. Melee also has a lot of offensive tactics because the game benefitted offensive tactics over defensive ones. That is why melee has only 8 viable characters in it, because offense is the best defence in melee and Pm's design. That is why most of Pm's character design is offensive. Offensive is the best way to win in melee, so in order for a character to be viable in pm, it would need to have good offensive tools. That is why the characters seem more offensive.

 

[666blaziken]

not to mention that there is some nostalgic bias. Think about it: if melee was the one with all of OP's complaints about project M, the ones about how everyone has moves for a purpose and "forced design" and project M had so-called "terrible moves" many people would complain about project m for not having enough aggression in the metagame, and "lazy design". Another thing, look at brawl, none of the moves have forced design, and none are made to go into combos. Yet that game is considered horrible because of the lack of aggression and turtle-like metagame. Many brawl players complain about melee because of OP's complaint about project M. I see something wrong here.

 

[Viceversa96]

So... You dislike the game because it's been designed way too good, and because you feel like you are given tools instead of working to deserve them.

Go play Brawl then. I promise you, the game wasn't designed good at all, and you'll have to work for every hit. Every. Single. One.

I love this post to death

 

[GaretHax]

not to mention that there is some nostalgic bias. Think about it: if melee was the one with all of OP's complaints about project M, the ones about how everyone has moves for a purpose and "forced design" and project M had so-called "terrible moves" many people would complain about project m for not having enough aggression in the metagame, and "lazy design". Another thing, look at brawl, none of the moves have forced design, and none are made to go into combos. Yet that game is considered horrible because of the lack of aggression and turtle-like metagame. Many brawl players complain about melee because of OP's complaint about project M. I see something wrong here.

Honestly the only concern I have pertaining to this topic is, while thoughtful and planned design is awesome and desperately needed to ensure balance, taking it too far hurts a player's ability to be creative and innovative with one's option selects. If a move is designed with a certain function in mind it could end up only viable when used-as-intended, granted it would be difficult to forcefully design any move to be that specific, but the fear of such things happening in PM has been expressed, in one way or another, quite a few times in this thread. I just want to be able to be as creative, if not moreso, with my combos and tech-chases as I became accustomed to in Melee. Strong bad addressed this concern, albiet indirectly, in his posts but I don't think that makes it any less valid. B&B is fine, but I don't think anyone here wants MOBA or MMO-esque moves, with only one obvious intended use, be it b&b combos used everytime ala 2D fighters (which essentially gets condensed into optimum dps rotations in mmo's), pressure escapes, distance closers, etc. Alot of people really care about this project and just don't want to see it go one way or another honestly lol. I suppose it never hurts to bring this kind of thing up however.

 

[Mera Mera]

I'll preface this by saying: A) I'm an okay player at project M. I normally get decently far at the tournaments I've gone to, but I have no illusions on the huge gap between me and the people who actually win said tournaments. I also admittedly haven't gone to a tournament since moving to California 4 months ago, and I've mostly only played online since. B) That while I loved Melee, I was a complete noob until brawl mods (Brawl+, Brawl-, PM), and as such, I don't feel that I have a particularly heavy bias towards Melee. I enjoy PM far more, simply because of the variety of viable characters.

EDIT: I have NO illusions... whoops

I think there is something to be said about the skill required to do something. There is a notable difference for me in the satisfaction of succeeding with a tactic requiring skill vs the satisfaction of succeeding with something that's easily done. When something takes skill via tech skill, careful planning and trapping, and/or baiting and quickly punishing, not only is it more satisfying to get the hit, but the pressure/fear of losing has a much more significant impact on your ability to do said tactic. And I LIKE that there's a huge mental aspect to this game. And on the flip side there is a notable difference for me in defeating a tactic that takes skill compared to defeating a tactic that's easily done. Really, if something is easily done, like spamming an attack, I'm frustrated if works at all.

Now, I don't think PM has this problem for the most part, but I can think of a few things off hand that at least SEEM to be fairly effective despite not being difficult. Both Mario's fireball and Ivysaur's razor leaf seem to effortlessly win the neutral game and/or force the opposing character into a poor position. Compare this to the ever hated Falco's laser. While Falco's neutral game is absurd BECAUSE of his laser, it does take some skill to time the fast fall and laser to get it at the right height, and the inputs required are relatively fast paced. Compare this to short hop/full hop fireball or short hop razor leaf, and while you see you get similar results (doing well in neutral, albeit not AS well), the satisfaction for both players in the match is substantially less (regardless of whether or not the easy tactic succeeds). Also, if a Falco player isn't able to keep his calm, and starts breaking under the pressure, then his lasers get sloppy. I don't really feel like there is concern for that happening for someone using either razor leaf or mario's fireball.

Now, I don't hate these characters, in fact I personally think Ivysaur is (otherwise) nearly perfectly designed. (I don't really use Mario so I'm more or less apathetic about him). Now, I don't know what the alternative is, but I will say that Wolf's laser takes skill to use and din's fire, and snake's projectiles take lots of understanding and planning to use, and I thoroughly enjoy both using and facing these characters.

But truth be told, I get a little annoyed when I see fireballs or a razor leaf coming my way. Even when I can still win the match, and even when the person is clearly better than me and I'd have no hope either way. And it's not even fair to blame the Ivy or Mario user, since they SHOULD use the tools they were given. And many of them could still pull off the win just as well if their tools took more effort, but the feeling during and after the match would be different for me, and I think them as well. (I use Ivy as a secondary, so I'm somewhat on both sides of this).

And so, to an extent, I can relate to the idea that in PM some things are just straight good, and whereas in Melee you had to work for it, and that moves being good without effort can sometimes be a bad thing.

As an only somewhat skilled gamer, I can't say with confidence that I won't grow to adapt around Mario and Ivy and begin to like those matches more. It's hard for me to predict whether or not my criticism is sound.

Also, since you guys mostly get complaints, I want to add that I love PM, and I want you guys (the PMBR) to know that. I'm insanely grateful, and this will always be my favorite multiplayer game, and this game is what made me see the beauty in competitive gaming.

 

[666blaziken]

Honestly the only concern I have pertaining to this topic is, while thoughtful and planned design is awesome and desperately needed to ensure balance, taking it too far hurts a player's ability to be creative and innovative with one's option selects. If a move is designed with a certain function in mind it could end up only viable when used-as-intended, granted it would be difficult to forcefully design any move to be that specific, but the fear of such things happening in PM has been expressed, in one way or another, quite a few times in this thread. I just want to be able to be as creative, if not moreso, with my combos and tech-chases as I became accustomed to in Melee. Strong bad addressed this concern, albiet indirectly, in his posts but I don't think that makes it any less valid. B&B is fine, but I don't think anyone here wants MOBA or MMO-esque moves, with only one obvious intended use, be it b&b combos used everytime ala 2D fighters (which essentially gets condensed into optimum dps rotations in mmo's), pressure escapes, distance closers, etc. Alot of people really care about this project and just don't want to see it go one way or another honestly lol. I suppose it never hurts to bring this kind of thing up however.

good point. I know that everyone has something different in mind of what project m should do, but I just don't think it's fair to complain about the forced design because it could be a lot worse.
What if in an alternate reality, melee had been released as an intended fighting game (imagine PM with only melee characters) and everyone's moves have a purpose. Then brawl came out and melee fans hated it. Then PMBR makes a rom that plays more like melee, but instead of going for the "every character's move has a purpose", they did what in our reality melee did and made bowser useless or weaker (because he needs "discovery"), and made some pointless moves that need discovering upon before they become good? Nobody would have the patience with it, because in their minds, pm is supposed to play like melee, and in that alternate reality, melee plays like PM does in our reality, so PM in the alternate reality would be called a "watered down version of melee" or even worse, it would be called "brawl" in much exaggeration.

 

[Paradoxium]

I say make a design flexible enough to be balanced yet allow the freedom to play vastly different playstyles, I feel pm is already in this direction

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The thing about Pam's design is that it uses smash bros melee's enviornment, so offence is rewarded. This isn't that much different in melee. Melee also has a lot of offensive tactics because the game benefitted offensive tactics over defensive ones. That is why melee has only 8 viable characters in it, because offense is the best defence in melee and Pm's design. That is why most of Pm's character design is offensive. Offensive is the best way to win in melee, so in order for a character to be viable in pm, it would need to have good offensive tools. That is why the characters seem more offensive.

It's not really related to this thread and linearly designed moves but offense is not more powerful than defense in any Smash game. Punishes are strong and look "offensive" in Melee/PM/64, but but playing offensively (e.g. approaching) almost always puts you at a disadvantage (there was a long thread in the Melee boards about this a while back but I can't find it ATM). You can see an exaggerated version of this in Smash 64, where most characters being capable of 0-Death combos on first touch is actually factor in the neutral game being played really defensively/campy.

Found Thread

 

[GaretHax]

Making your own openings and being offensive or assertive AND succeeding at it requires much more effort, input, and is inherently more difficult compared to waiting for something to happen and reacting to it. This is true in just about any fighting fame, life pursuit, or sport (including martial arts), granted planning and adapting to stimuli while waiting for the proper circumstance to react to is still difficult, but the person on the offensive is predominately putting themselves at some kind of disadvantage. Unless gimmicks, or offensive options with skewed success ratios exist(but such options still tend to lose to defensive play unless they almost always win a certain situation, but then they become gimmicks themselves). All IMO don't go quoting me or taking this too seriously.

 

[666blaziken]

It's not really related to this thread and linearly designed moves but offense is not more powerful than defense in any Smash game. Punishes are strong and look "offensive" in Melee/PM/64, but but playing offensively (e.g. approaching) almost always puts you at a disadvantage (there was a long thread in the Melee boards about this a while back but I can't find it ATM). You can see an exaggerated version of this in Smash 64, where most characters being capable of 0-Death combos on first touch is actually factor in the neutral game being played really defensively/campy.

Found Thread

That is actually true. Though I said that offensive play is important because playing defensive would only rack up the opponent's damage meter, and takes a long time to ko opponents, and because melee and pm are so fast paced, that type of style isn't always recommended. When I said offensive in this thread though, I meant a combination of both offensive and defensive options, not just pure offensive 0-death combos. Look at zelda, she is a defensive character, but using her offensively as well will make her a great character in PM

 

[Ace55]

i think rats post sums up what vro is saying pretty well. the moves on many characters are designed with really specific purposes, which makes the game feel really cheesy and risks limiting the characters' potential. in melee, most characters' moves are pretty bad;

I'm going to admit that I haven't read the whole thread but I just wanted to address this. Look at the top tiers in Melee and tell me they have a bad moveset. Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik have some of the best movesets regardless of what level you're playing at. Once people started figuring out the engine it wasn't hard to realize that Falco's shine sets up for an aerial, meteor smashes are amazing combo starters or 90% of uptilts lead into juggles. Even stuff like waveshining is just putting jumpcancelable move plus wavedash together. The Melee chars that had mostly a bad moveset are for the most part bad characters.

Let me put it this way: if Falco had not been in melee but was released in version 2.0 as a new character, would we not have figured out his bread and butter stuff by now? The magic of Melee at first was figuring out how the engine and characters work together, which happened to be so deep that to this day there are still new functions for moves or techs to be discovered. Now in PM we are basically skipping the first part almost entirely, we understand the engine and we can quickly identify what the primary use for a move is. This however doesn't mean we can't find other implications for said moves just like we have done in Melee.

Basically I feel like a few things are colliding here, (I'm assuming) you want this game to be as deep and competitive as Melee but you also want the developers to design characters so that their moves feel like they were made without a specific function behind them. On top of this we want all 40 or so chars to be able to compete at high level. Now I think we can all agree that Melee was a 'happy accident'. The developers had a much better mindset when making it then during Brawl's development but the fact that it turned out to be so amazingly deep and competitive was basically a miracle. We can't expect the PMBR to recreate this miracle without making characters movesets with competitive Melee in mind.

Again, a little late to the party but just wanted to get my point of view out there.

 

[hamyojo]

I think telling a game dev group to make their game feel like a happy accident so that you can figure the game out instead of them is something really, really hard to do... But I'd like that too, it's just that, like Ace said, Melee was a miracle game. It can't happen again.

P:M's different than Melee, and with a cast of 40 different characters that all have to be good and have their own flavor you can't get the lucky randomness of glorious compilation of characters that is the Melee top 8.

Melee was made to kinda feel like a sandbox of characters, items, and stages. There's no one way to play it, and everyone (that isn't at a tourny level) plays with their own sandboxed rules. Sandboxes were made to have sand topple over and bury things, and have kids get dirty and the sandboxes get filled with dirty things. Melee was just, like, super good quality sand.
Project M ain't no sandbox, it uses the same box Melee had, but fills it with, like, magnets or something.

I don't know.
I'm tired.
Tomorrow is my last day of the nine weeks at school I need to be finishing Crime and Punishment.
Melee5ever

 

[Archangel]

I'm going to admit that I haven't read the whole thread but I just wanted to address this. Look at the top tiers in Melee and tell me they have a bad moveset. Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik have some of the best movesets regardless of what level you're playing at. Once people started figuring out the engine it wasn't hard to realize that Falco's shine sets up for an aerial, meteor smashes are amazing combo starters or 90% of uptilts lead into juggles. Even stuff like waveshining is just putting jumpcancelable move plus wavedash together. The Melee chars that had mostly a bad moveset are for the most part bad characters.

Let me put it this way: if Falco had not been in melee but was released in version 2.0 as a new character, would we not have figured out his bread and butter stuff by now? The magic of Melee at first was figuring out how the engine and characters work together, which happened to be so deep that to this day there are still new functions for moves or techs to be discovered. Now in PM we are basically skipping the first part almost entirely, we understand the engine and we can quickly identify what the primary use for a move is. This however doesn't mean we can't find other implications for said moves just like we have done in Melee.

Basically I feel like a few things are colliding here, (I'm assuming) you want this game to be as deep and competitive as Melee but you also want the developers to design characters so that their moves feel like they were made without a specific function behind them. On top of this we want all 40 or so chars to be able to compete at high level. Now I think we can all agree that Melee was a 'happy accident'. The developers had a much better mindset when making it then during Brawl's development but the fact that it turned out to be so amazingly deep and competitive was basically a miracle. We can't expect the PMBR to recreate this miracle without making characters movesets with competitive Melee in mind.

Again, a little late to the party but just wanted to get my point of view out there.

Very good point. Especially the remark about Falco, especially if you imagine Wolf being an original Melee vet and Falco being new. As of now Wolf's playstyle has already been figured out. I'm 100% sure Falco's would've been done the same way.

I don't think all 40 will play near or at Falco level. I do think it's possible to squeeze them all between Melee's top 1-9 character's level of play.

 

[Oracle]

there are a few exceptions to melee chars having bad moves, but i mean come on. fox's nair is pretty **** compared to luigis or links in that game. you can't just run at your opponent with nairs; if you don't space/time them right, then your opponent can grab you. Even with shine, the pressure with fox is really hard. when i played against m2k i was really impressed by the way he pressured with shine nairs, where each nair he just got my shield with fox's feet pretty late. compare this to ike's downtilt, which is just a good old -3 on block sweep move, regardless of how your space it. most moves in melee, save like shine, lasers, or stuff like that, has a big "if" attached to why its good. falcon's nair is safe on block IF you pull back and hit with just the feet, and your opponent is not ccing. shiek's nair is good oos IF you make it come out the frame that she leaves the ground. marth's tools are good for pressure IF your spacing is really good.

the problem i have with pm is that the "ifs" are too broad. Ivy's bair is safe IF your opponent is within its range. razor leaf will get you damage and stage control IF you have enough distance to not get punished (which is like a character length). the tools are too broad in their use, which means that there will be almost no specialization or subtlety in use of moves, which are the things that make high level melee. why should I look into a specific use of a move when these 3 moves cover all my opponent's options?

i'm not asking the pmbr to **** around and hope for the best like the melee devs did. i just think that the moves made with specific purposes in mind contribute to characters having shallow gameplay, and that changing moves so quickly denies the possibility that they have potential to be good but people missed.

 

[Fortress]

i'm not asking the pmbr to **** around and hope for the best like the melee devs did. i just think that the moves made with specific purposes in mind contribute to characters having shallow gameplay, and that changing moves so quickly denies the possibility that they have potential to be good but people missed.

Yeah, really. I agree. There's this huge 'gray area' that I feel the PM:BR falls into in terms of how to design a character. They can either structure it from the ground up and balance everything out as much as possible, or they can wing it, take some darts, blindfold themselves, and throw them until something magically falls into place.

Though, I love the work the PM:BR does. They're doing excellently, and I'd much rather them be structuring characters and making sure balances are in place than just randomly tuning everything with no regards to how it works and hope that it turns into a 'good' slip-up.

Granted, I ****ing hate Ivysaur.

 

[Chzrm3]

Yeah, really. I agree. There's this huge 'gray area' that I feel the PM:BR falls into in terms of how to design a character. They can either structure it from the ground up and balance everything out as much as possible, or they can wing it, take some darts, blindfold themselves, and throw them until something magically falls into place.

Yeah, that's pretty tough - especially since they understand so much about the meta of Melee and what makes a character work, it's probably pretty abstact to try designing a character in a vacuum without thinking about how his moves will tie together in the hands of a high level player.

I think the problem with trying to design stuff organically like that is, sure, they might stumble upon someone who plays like Falco or Ice Climbers, and has this immense amount of technical depth, but they're just as likely to whiff and make someone like G&W or Yoshi that's really tough to use. We may not realize how behind those characters are for months/years, at which point the PMBR either jumps back in and overhauls the characters (which would probably result in the same feeling of 'forced design'), or they leave them and we have the same disparity that existed in Melee, where certain characters just don't have the technical depth and nuance that others do.

So I'm with you, I like the way the PMBR's been handling character creation/balance, and I definitely think it's the healthiest thing for the game.

 

[Yurya]

After reading through this thread and looking back at the characters that PM has designed so far I really have to give props to cmart for the way that Pit and Squirtle have turned out (I believe he is responsible for them and I am not sure who else he has worked on). At first I didn't like either of these characters because they had some seemingly stupid strengths yet felt like they lacked in the end result. But as I have seen these characters develop they encompass what a competitive character should have especially when going up against Melee top tiers. Pit's offstage capabilities mixed-in with his arrows and disjoint at first sight scream OP yet these strengths are needed to compete and also require work to achieve; it is quite easy to kill yourself as Pit. Bubble seemed like the dumbest move with its insta-edgeguard capabilities yet when taken in with the whole of Squirtle it is is actually quite needed.

If this game is going to be balanced where every character is competitive with Fox, who owns a ridiculous SHFFL, upsmash, and shine, every other character is going to have to own moves/traits that shout OP. PM has shown this here and there but many characters are instead being given a comprehensive move-set which is solid everywhere. While this looks solid and can end up working it leads to characters auto-comboing because every character is very similiar. I can pick up multiple characters and play at a similar level with them just because the general style of play is not different between characters; I can just throw out a moves and it works simply because every move is comparable enough so that it is effective.

Jiggz has a pretty crappy moveset yet she can go up against Fox because of her ridiculous Rest. I think Rest is OP and in the past have thought that it should be changed but it is that ridiculous move that keeps her viable. Now to learn her is hard but that is how it should be. Marth is ridiculous for his range, Peach for her dsmash/nair/float, Icies for chaingrabs, Falcon for his knee.
My point is that every character needs something(s) broken, almost absurdly broken to the point people complain, for PM to balance the 40 something characters and continue to capture what made Melee special.

I apologize if I was unclear; writing is not my most natural talent. I know I got a little sappy towards the end but hopefully I made my point. This is just something I noticed and I would like the PMBR take this into consideration as they continue their hard work designing and redesigning the cast.

 

[cmart]

It's a warm fuzzy feeling when someone else picks out your personal design beliefs through the work you do.

 

[meow]

It's a warm fuzzy feeling when someone else picks out your personal design beliefs through the work you do.

I just wanted to say i love you for giving us pit

 

[JOE!]

I dunno, "make one-two moves just extra ******** and the rest be ****ty-mediocre" leaves a bad taste in my mouth....

 

[CyberZixx]

Who designed Wario? That person needs a medal.

 

[MagnesD3]

After reading through this thread and looking back at the characters that PM has designed so far I really have to give props to cmart for the way that Pit and Squirtle have turned out (I believe he is responsible for them and I am not sure who else he has worked on). At first I didn't like either of these characters because they had some seemingly stupid strengths yet felt like they lacked in the end result. But as I have seen these characters develop they encompass what a competitive character should have especially when going up against Melee top tiers. Pit's offstage capabilities mixed-in with his arrows and disjoint at first sight scream OP yet these strengths are needed to compete and also require work to achieve; it is quite easy to kill yourself as Pit. Bubble seemed like the dumbest move with its insta-edgeguard capabilities yet when taken in with the whole of Squirtle it is is actually quite needed.

If this game is going to be balanced where every character is competitive with Fox, who owns a ridiculous SHFFL, upsmash, and shine, every other character is going to have to own moves/traits that shout OP. PM has shown this here and there but many characters are instead being given a comprehensive move-set which is solid everywhere. While this looks solid and can end up working it leads to characters auto-comboing because every character is very similiar. I can pick up multiple characters and play at a similar level with them just because the general style of play is not different between characters; I can just throw out a moves and it works simply because every move is comparable enough so that it is effective.

Jiggz has a pretty crappy moveset yet she can go up against Fox because of her ridiculous Rest. I think Rest is OP and in the past have thought that it should be changed but it is that ridiculous move that keeps her viable. Now to learn her is hard but that is how it should be. Marth is ridiculous for his range, Peach for her dsmash/nair/float, Icies for chaingrabs, Falcon for his knee.
My point is that every character needs something(s) broken, almost absurdly broken to the point people complain, for PM to balance the 40 something characters and continue to capture what made Melee special.

I apologize if I was unclear; writing is not my most natural talent. I know I got a little sappy towards the end but hopefully I made my point. This is just something I noticed and I would like the PMBR take this into consideration as they continue their hard work designing and redesigning the cast.

Id like to point out IC's dont deserve something as broken as (chain grab to death).

 

[Yurya]

Id like to point out IC's dont deserve something as broken as (chain grab to death).

My point was not about debating whether they should chain grabs now, but what had made them good in Melee, which this thread was continually referring too. I was not making an assertion for how ICs should be in PM, however, what makes Fox deserve his shine or Jiggz her rest? If those are to stay constant in PM then every character is going need something that good/broken if there is to be balance and the complexity that melee had.

 

[Juushichi]

IC should get their CG

and other people should learn how to mash.

Or separate them/space around them long enough not to get bopped.

Yeah, it's not "ideal" or "cool". When I look at all the stages and characters and stuff that IC players are going to have to deal with, I honestly think they're going to need it.

ofc, my personal ideals don't represent the rest of the PMBR's.

 

[MagnesD3]

Lol a touch of death grab being needed means something is wrong with that characters design. I'm fine with chain grabs but not infinites or instant death combos.

My point was what made them good in Melee simply because of what this thread was continually referring too. I was not making an assertion for how ICs should be in PM, however, what makes Fox deserve his shine or Jiggz her rest? If those are to stay constant in PM then every character is going need something that good/broken if there is to be balance and the complexity that melee had.

I'd also like to say I don't find shine or rest broken/game breaking, but see them as really good tools. When talking about balancing fox people go for the upsmash or up air not the shine, it's fine as is. As for jiggs she already has enough trouble in pm as is, people complaining about rest are few and far between..

 

[Juushichi]

There isn't an instant death combo in the game.

Infinites are regulated by rulesets. We have already established as a community the difference between a chain grab and an infinite chain grab so I am confused at why you said what you did lol.

Are you okay with Sheik, Mario, Ganon's CG even if it possibly leads to death? All of them have had or have the potential to end your stocks. Are IC chain grabs ok until 80% and they can smash you?

 

[MagnesD3]

There isn't an instant death combo in the game.

Infinites are regulated by rulesets. We have already established as a community the difference between a chain grab and an infinite chain grab so I am confused at why you said what you did lol.

Are you okay with Sheik, Mario, Ganon's CG even if it possibly leads to death? All of them have had or have the potential to end your stocks. Are IC chain grabs ok until 80% and they can smash you?

Ic's doing that is absolutely the dumbest thing in melee, trying to defend it is silly. Ic's can do that crap from 0 and kill you, a single grab that kills you at 0 is ludicrous, and bad game design if inescapable. (I'm ok is Ic are given some kind of balanced chain grab/good combo from grab though.

 

[DMG]

I'm fine with Ganon and Mario because of kinda poopy grab range. Slap that stuff on D3 or Zard or Marth and you got a lame character

Nerf Money 2065

 

[MagnesD3]

I'm fine with Ganon and Mario because of kinda poopy grab range. Slap that stuff on D3 or Zard or Marth and you got a lame character

Nerf Money 2065

You can correctly DI out of those chain grabs to escape right? I mean at 0 they aren't going to get guareenteed 0 till death kill right? At higher percents it's easier to DI out of, right? (I don't play these 2, I knew they had a chain grab but nothing as severe as Ic's or so I thought.)

 

[Viceversa96]

I just want combo's, a fast paced game, and to HAVE ****ING FUN IN THE COMPETITIVE SCENE! What happened to fun? Most the arguments I hear against P:M are 1."doing technical things is easier" which isn't a bad thing at all. More players can play the game because the basics are easier, the better player will ALWAYS win. 2."Combo's are to easy" but they aren't. A good example would be Mario's down throw compared to Sheik's (how do you spell it? idk). People say once Mario has a character in kill percent d-throw to f-air is guaranteed which it isn't because 1. you have to read DI and 2. Because you have to react FAST since they can jump out of it if you aren't fast. 3."It's not fast enough" I call bull**** on this. I think there are three things that are throwing them off. 1. The camera behaves differently A LOT differently. 2. The brawl models are weird to them and a little bigger. 3. That weird 1 frame thing.

 

[MagnesD3]

I just want combo's, a fast paced game, and to HAVE ****ING FUN IN THE COMPETITIVE SCENE! What happened to fun? Most the arguments I hear against P:M are 1."doing technical things is easier" which isn't a bad thing at all. More players can play the game because the basics are easier, the better player will ALWAYS win. 2."Combo's are to easy" but they aren't. A good example would be Mario's down throw compared to Sheik's (how do you spell it? idk). People say once Mario has a character in kill percent d-throw to f-air is guaranteed which it isn't because 1. you have to read DI and 2. Because you have to react FAST since they can jump out of it if you aren't fast. 3."It's not fast enough" I call bull**** on this. I think there are three things that are throwing them off. 1. The camera behaves differently A LOT differently. 2. The brawl models are weird to them and a little bigger. 3. That weird 1 frame thing.

Plz tell me you agree that this is stupid... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aceOP82iyFE

 

[Strong Badam]

Wobbling will not be returning in Project M.

Now get back on topic please.

 

[Viceversa96]

Wobbling will not be returning in Project M.

Now get back on topic please.

Lol better not come back

 

[kupo15]

Wish I saw this earlier, I actually have been playing PM occasionally. I tried to be hopeful for PM and this post means well but I have to completely agree with Vro as the more I played it the more I noticed "issues" that have been brought up by Vro and other posters on the same side as him. I'm in complete agreement with the whole feeling that the PMBR is addressing patches to characters as a specific response to cover weaknesses and as someone also mentioned it feels like "the PMBR is playing favorites to justify questionable changes." Weather or not it was their intention is irrelevant but the fact is that it is present in the game and has been getting worse is certainly unsettling.
_________________________________

The latest patch has a bunch of questionable decisions from the above statement:

-Sonic lost his spring shot gimp while the PMBR decided it was important to give Ganon another buff via a usable utilt. Why are we still buffing Ganon? I love him to death as he is my main in melee but he is an excellent example of favoritism that resulted in unnecessary buffs. Ganon really didn't need much changing as he already had natural buffs from Vbrawl while Sonic gets shafted. (no more spring gimp, lack of former KO power, tell-tale flashes to broadcast what he is doing etc...)

-Playing Ike and reading comments defending the new moveset overhaul is ridiculous. He is supposed to be the slower more powerful Ganon character but instead with all the buffs Ganon has received has completely made Ike a pointless character on the roster. Why play with Ike who has slower and less KO potential when you can be the agile, quicker and stronger Ganon? Being able to grab an opponent across the stage in a blink via quickdraw is as absurd as it would be giving Fox/falco a JC side b! Allowing him to walljump after a QD feels completely unjustified especially since he still is tough enough to edgeguard his Up B. Ike doesn't need this overcentralization with building a moveset around his QD, he just needs to be his slower, powerful more positional character that he was designed to be. This is a clear example of planned design that has gone too far.

-Last detailed character example is Bower and now Roy. I was excited to see Roy but the latest video was flat out unnerving. Roy's new turnaround ability with the SideB falls under what Vro was talking about with planned-design. Why does he even need the ability to turn around mid SideB? The commentator said "well you know for those times when the opponent rolls or pops behind on the third hit, you know?" Well yea I guess that would be the only reason why. So Roy performs the Side B incorrectly yet was given the tools to correct his mistake mid move? Also, Roy's grab range!? Its even bigger than Marth's! And the commentator said "That grab range!" "Yea, its about time, he needed something like that." No. He doesn't need a grab that can grab 2 character models away.
2:40 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGmr6hu6InU
________________________________________________

Those quotes sum up the direction, whether intentional or not, that PM has taken. I could go into more detail about other characters, like Boswer, but I won't. To me what I've been seeing is that PM is straying further and further away from the core of what makes Smash bros Smash at strongly believes that it needs to re-invent movesets with OP "Novelty Moves" when it really doesn't. Positional struggle has taken a back seat to nearly effortless/riskless attack-centric domination when it needs to be tipped slightly defensively...and no, doing so will not make PM the mess that was camp heavy Vbrawl. That was a result of poor mechanics that didn't reward successful approaches, aka no hitstun and l cancling for example. A slightly favorable defense will demand more from players to successfully approach.

Oh, and speaking of mechanics, I am not sure if you are aware but I would really appreciate it if PM would fix the teching glitch. You should never be allowed to tech a meteor move that "bounces" you off of the ground because you were grounded. This has happened quite a few times during playing.

 

[trash?]

Sonic lost his spring shot gimp while the PMBR decided it was important to give Ganon another buff via a usable utilt. Why are we still buffing Ganon? I love him to death as he is my main in melee but he is an excellent example of favoritism that resulted in unnecessary buffs. Ganon really didn't need much changing as he already had natural buffs from Vbrawl while Sonic gets shafted. (no more spring gimp, lack of former KO power, tell-tale flashes to broadcast what he is doing etc...)

anyone w/ even the vaguest idea of how the 2.5 best and worst characters looked like would have a very good answer for you

 

[meow]

1. PM has separate people working on individual characters so how can their be favorites?
2. Sonic was crazy in 2.5, like what you don't want him nerfed?
3. I don't even know what to say about Ike/Ganon, you're contradicting yourself. You cannot group Ike and Ganon as the same character, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Ganon is NOT a better version of Ike.
4. Roy's not even out yet.
5. It has already been discussed without a clear direction in mind it would be impossible to attempt to balance the characters.
6. If you really wanted to help PM report the teching "glitch" and don't complain in a very negative response that criticizes how P:M works.

 

[Paradoxium]

-Playing Ike and reading comments defending the new moveset overhaul is ridiculous. He is supposed to be the slower more powerful Ganon character but instead with all the buffs Ganon has received has completely made Ike a pointless character on the roster. Why play with Ike who has slower and less KO potential when you can be the agile, quicker and stronger Ganon? Being able to grab an opponent across the stage in a blink via quickdraw is as absurd as it would be giving Fox/falco a JC side b! Allowing him to walljump after a QD feels completely unjustified especially since he still is tough enough to edgeguard his Up B. Ike doesn't need this overcentralization with building a moveset around his QD, he just needs to be his slower, powerful more positional character that he was designed to be. This is a clear example of planned design that has gone too far.

One thing to note is that ike is a different character with a different playstyle, which is why people play as him. That's like saying "why play falco when you can play fox."
And another thing i want to point out is that Ike IS NOT supposed to be a slower/ more powerful character, if i remember correctly he was fast and strong in fire emblem
I think you just dislike his moveset and are trying to pin it as an example of "planned design gone wrong"
in sakurai's eyes melee was a planned design gone wrong lol

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ganon a better version of Ike? Well maybe when they give Ike that flame choke move and make Quickdraw the next Wizard's Foot. Being someone who uses Ganon, I can't even begin to understand this. Ike and Ganon both handle independently and trying to suggest that Ganon can cover all of Ike's options is absurd.

 

[Fortress]

I just don't understand why the PM:BR made Link a really bad version and alternative to Lucas. It doesn't make sense to me when I compare the two characters.