forced design

[Phaiyte]

Wish I saw this earlier, I actually have been playing PM occasionally. I tried to be hopeful for PM and this post means well but I have to completely agree with Vro as the more I played it the more I noticed "issues" that have been brought up by Vro and other posters on the same side as him. I'm in complete agreement with the whole feeling that the PMBR is addressing patches to characters as a specific response to cover weaknesses and as someone also mentioned it feels like "the PMBR is playing favorites to justify questionable changes." Weather or not it was their intention is irrelevant but the fact is that it is present in the game and has been getting worse is certainly unsettling.
_________________________________

The latest patch has a bunch of questionable decisions from the above statement:

-Sonic lost his spring shot gimp while the PMBR decided it was important to give Ganon another buff via a usable utilt. Why are we still buffing Ganon? I love him to death as he is my main in melee but he is an excellent example of favoritism that resulted in unnecessary buffs. Ganon really didn't need much changing as he already had natural buffs from Vbrawl while Sonic gets shafted. (no more spring gimp, lack of former KO power, tell-tale flashes to broadcast what he is doing etc...)

-Playing Ike and reading comments defending the new moveset overhaul is ridiculous. He is supposed to be the slower more powerful Ganon character but instead with all the buffs Ganon has received has completely made Ike a pointless character on the roster. Why play with Ike who has slower and less KO potential when you can be the agile, quicker and stronger Ganon? Being able to grab an opponent across the stage in a blink via quickdraw is as absurd as it would be giving Fox/falco a JC side b! Allowing him to walljump after a QD feels completely unjustified especially since he still is tough enough to edgeguard his Up B. Ike doesn't need this overcentralization with building a moveset around his QD, he just needs to be his slower, powerful more positional character that he was designed to be. This is a clear example of planned design that has gone too far.

-Last detailed character example is Bower and now Roy. I was excited to see Roy but the latest video was flat out unnerving. Roy's new turnaround ability with the SideB falls under what Vro was talking about with planned-design. Why does he even need the ability to turn around mid SideB? The commentator said "well you know for those times when the opponent rolls or pops behind on the third hit, you know?" Well yea I guess that would be the only reason why. So Roy performs the Side B incorrectly yet was given the tools to correct his mistake mid move? Also, Roy's grab range!? Its even bigger than Marth's! And the commentator said "That grab range!" "Yea, its about time, he needed something like that." No. He doesn't need a grab that can grab 2 character models away.
2:40 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGmr6hu6InU
________________________________________________

Those quotes sum up the direction, whether intentional or not, that PM has taken. I could go into more detail about other characters, like Boswer, but I won't. To me what I've been seeing is that PM is straying further and further away from the core of what makes Smash bros Smash at strongly believes that it needs to re-invent movesets with OP "Novelty Moves" when it really doesn't. Positional struggle has taken a back seat to nearly effortless/riskless attack-centric domination when it needs to be tipped slightly defensively...and no, doing so will not make PM the mess that was camp heavy Vbrawl. That was a result of poor mechanics that didn't reward successful approaches, aka no hitstun and l cancling for example. A slightly favorable defense will demand more from players to successfully approach.

Oh, and speaking of mechanics, I am not sure if you are aware but I would really appreciate it if PM would fix the teching glitch. You should never be allowed to tech a meteor move that "bounces" you off of the ground because you were grounded. This has happened quite a few times during playing.

Ike wins tournaments and Ganon doesn't. Which one's the better character again?

 

[Fortress]

Ike wins tournaments and Ganon doesn't. Which one's the better character again?

Ganondorf is pimpin', Cap. Falcon is a bad clone of him, and Ike has no friends.

Try again.

 

[kupo15]

1. PM has separate people working on individual characters so how can their be favorites?
2. Sonic was crazy in 2.5, like what you don't want him nerfed?
3. I don't even know what to say about Ike/Ganon, you're contradicting yourself. You cannot group Ike and Ganon as the same character, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Ganon is NOT a better version of Ike.
4. Roy's not even out yet.
5. It has already been discussed without a clear direction in mind it would be impossible to attempt to balance the characters.
6. If you really wanted to help PM report the teching "glitch" and don't complain in a very negative response that criticizes how P:M works.

1. And maybe that is part of the problem. I can't say for certain what their process is when changing characters but if you have a bunch people doing different characters everyone is going to have their own vision of what "good" is. It is most definitely possible that there could be favoritism when tweaking characters, I'm not saying its intentional, but its very easy when you are passionate and hardworking on your project like the PMBR are to tweak and tweak and tweak and not realize that you might be overdoing it. As I said, its a possibility but regardless of whether or not its the case, the shear fact that they felt like Ganon needed more buffs in the latest build is a means for speculation.

2. Don't get me wrong, he needed a nerf but not that much of one. The primary issue with 2.5 Sonic was that people felt you didn't need to commit to the spin dash but this was an issue with the ability to wavedash out of spin dash. All he needed was to not be able to do that and he would be fine.

3. You're not understanding what I am saying. Of course they are not the same character but they do fall under the same character class which is below average speed but strong. I'm going to use this quote to answer your point and everyone else who refuted the Ganon vs Ike comment.

One thing to note is that ike is a different character with a different playstyle, which is why people play as him. That's like saying "why play falco when you can play fox."
And another thing i want to point out is that Ike IS NOT supposed to be a slower/ more powerful character, if i remember correctly he was fast and strong in fire emblem
I think you just dislike his moveset and are trying to pin it as an example of "planned design gone wrong"

Yes, that is completely true and I agree with your statement about different playstyles and I acknowledge the different strengths/weaknesses between the two characters that make them two very different characters. My issue is with the fact that Ike falls under the same character class yet is much less powerful than Ganon. You say that he isn't supposed to be slower. Since you don't believe they are in the same class, quickly doing a move comparison will show that just about every move in Ike's moveset is slower than Ganon's moves in the same category yet his moves are not any stronger than Ganons. In fact, none of Ike's smashes even holds a candle to Ganon's Fair, for example, as the power in Ganon's Fair outclasses them all.

And contrary to what you stated, I love Ike's moveset and want to play him over ganon in PM because I enjoy playing positional, strong characters. But the fact is that despite PM giving him better movement than Ganon (based around QD) his moveset lends Ike to be a slower, positional character. Give him all the speed tricks you want, his moves still come out too slow for the reward you get for landing them. Just because he has speed tricks doesn't make him a not a slow positional-based, character.

4. I understand, but Roy doesn't need to be playable to validate my claim that his grab range is huge. That video proves that on more than one occasion. And I also don't need to Roy to be playable to validate my comment that Roy has the ability to turn his Side B around mid move either.

5. Yes and that is what this thread is about, to show our concerns for the direction we think PM is taking by showing examples of what has been done that make us feel like the direction isn't the correct one. This was my opinion on the direction PM is taking which is in agreement with what the OP brought forth:

To me what I've been seeing is that PM is straying further and further away from the core of what makes Smash bros Smash at strongly believes that it needs to re-invent movesets with OP "Novelty Moves" when it really doesn't. Positional struggle has taken a back seat to nearly effortless/riskless attack-centric domination when it needs to be tipped slightly defensively...and no, doing so will not make PM the mess that was camp heavy Vbrawl. That was a result of poor mechanics that didn't reward successful approaches, aka no hitstun and l cancling for example. A slightly favorable defense will demand more from players to successfully approach.

6. I didn't mean to sound hostel my post wasn't intended to bully the PMBR either. In fact I want PM to be a good game and I wouldn't have posted my concerns for the projects direction if I didn't care about the project. Obviously there some valid issues with PM's direction as several posters including Cactuar are sharing the same concerns. It just gets extremely frustrating to see some of the changes happen that aren't really the best and people not seeing it. And btw, not that I intended to sound mean but I've mentioned the teching glitch several times to the team nicely yet it continually falls on deaf ears months ago and its still in the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The way Ike is played and structured is so fundamentally different from Ganon. Giving him speed tricks already does this. They are fundamentally different characters. Being slow and position based relegates itself to more than just Ike and Ganon. Ganon kills better because he has less in the way of mobility, much, much less. That's pretty important.

Also turning around during a Side-B is mountains out of molehills because the only way that's gonna work is if the enemy falls for it or they end up behind Roy after they get hit cleanly. I doubt it's this impossible to punish monster move you think it's going to be based on seeing it only a few times.

Also of note are that these Ganon buffs don't take him extremely far either. Make him better? Yes. Make him supreme and dominant? Hahaha no, god no, not in this cast of characters.

 

[Phaiyte]

Wtf is Kupo even saying? Ike is faster than like 70% of the cast by far. Not even just running speed. His side B is ****ing stupid and his friction on the ground allows him to wavedash/land at an incredibly quick pace, nearly like Marth.

 

[kupo15]

The way Ike is played and structured is so fundamentally different from Ganon. Giving him speed tricks already does this. They are fundamentally different characters. Being slow and position based relegates itself to more than just Ike and Ganon. Ganon kills better because he has less in the way of mobility, much, much less. That's pretty important.

No, not necessarily so. Their movements are structured differently I'll give you that, but their moveset-type is fundamentally the same (aka their move's speed). Just because a character has fast movements doesn't necessarily make them a rushdown-type character instead of a non-positional-based one. Yes it can be a small factor in determining if a character is rushdown vs positional but an equally if not more important determining factor than mobility is the speed of the moveset. Take a look at Sonic who is a rushdown type character. He has the speed to categorize him in the rushdown type but what if instead all of Sonic's moves came out on frame 45? Yes he can "rush you down" due to his excellent mobility but how much pressure will he actually have when all his moves are incredibly slow? This version of Sonic would be better classified as positional despite his rush-down mobility.

The mobility helps the character to get into a good position but if the majority of a character's moveset comes out slowly that means that their character relies more on a good position to be able to hit with them. This is what makes Ike more positional because his moves are generally on the slow side. The reason Ganon kills better should not be because his mobility is lacking but should be based on how fast his moves come out. Because 95% of Ike's move come out even slower than Ganon, that means Ike should have more powerful moves than Ganon despite the better mobility he has. But you claim that Ike is not positional because of his mobility and it that is the case, then his moves should come out faster than Ganon's.

Also turning around during a Side-B is mountains out of molehills because the only way that's gonna work is if the enemy falls for it or they end up behind Roy after they get hit cleanly. I doubt it's this impossible to punish monster move you think it's going to be based on seeing it only a few times.

You are right in saying that its difficult to predict if this change will be an impossible to punish monster right now. I don't claim that it will be an impossible monster to punish, I brought it up as an example to support Vro's theory that PM's direction is becoming flawed with bad "forced design." You said that this move "would only work if they end up behind Roy after being hit." Well if this happens then that means Roy messed up with the execution and should be punished for that mistake instead of being given a fail-safe option if the opponent successfully mitigates the attack.

Also of note are that these Ganon buffs don't take him extremely far either. Make him better? Yes. Make him supreme and dominant? Hahaha no, god no, not in this cast of characters.

Note that I never stated that Ganon is now supreme or dominant. I merely stated that there was no point in making an already viable and solid character better. He was a beast before the change and now he is made even better for no good reason

Wtf is Kupo even saying? Ike is faster than like 70% of the cast by far. Not even just running speed. His side B is ****ing stupid and his friction on the ground allows him to wavedash/land at an incredibly quick pace, nearly like Marth.

Dude, my points are not referring to his mobility speed!! I never said Ike had slow mobility!!! I said Ike had slow moves!!!

 

[Fortress]

Ganon

an already viable and solid character

I think you're making that up. Old Ganondorf was a turd.

 

[kupo15]

Ganon 2.5 was a turd? Ok, if you say so...

 

[Fortress]

Ganon 2.5 was a turd? Ok, if you say so...

I was referring to Melee.

As for P:M, I imagine that most matchups are less than kind to Ganondorf. I'm fine with the dude being pumped up a little.

And to match you edit-for-edit, yes, we are playing the same game, save for the fact that Ike's fast in most of our builds.

 

[kupo15]

I was referring to Melee.

As for P:M, I imagine that most matchups are less than kind to Ganondorf. I'm fine with the dude being pumped up a little.

And to match you edit-for-edit, yes, we are playing the same game, save for the fact that Ike's fast in most of our builds.

I'll match you snarky remark-for-snarky remark, just so we are clear, "Ike is fast in most of our builds" in what way are you referring to?

 

[Fortress]

I'll match you snarky remark-for-snarky remark, just so we are clear, "Ike is fast in most of our builds" in what way are you referring to?

I was poking fun at you posting your comparisons between Ike and Ganondorf, labeling Ike as a 'slow' cast member, and implying that yours was the sole build in which Ike was slow, as nobody else noticed this.

 

[Fortress]

Har har.

 

[kupo15]

I was poking fun at you posting your comparisons between Ike and Ganondorf, labeling Ike as a 'slow' cast member, and implying that yours was the sole build in which Ike was slow, as nobody else noticed this.

uhh huh..ok sure. I asked which type of slow you claimed that I stated yet you clearly decided to respond using the vague type of the word slow when there are two types of slow descriptions to give a character. *claps*

 

[MetalMan]

Dont know if this the way they do it but I feel theres a priority to get all characters in and THEN fix universal issues. Since fixing a certain bug or whatever could work, the placing samus you realize she makes it all go bad. Just saying :D

Also, I forgot where I read it but it said sonic 2.6 was basically a clean slate prior to next release.

 

[Fortress]

uhh huh..ok sure. I asked which type of slow you claimed that I stated yet you clearly decided to respond using the vague type of the word slow when there are two types of slow descriptions to give a character. *claps*

Movement speed-slow, Christ, it's like I can't **** with you or something. Loosen up. That was the idea of me butting in in the first place.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mostly fndamentally the same? Ganon and Ike? Yeah, Ganon's movelist being structured around the Flame Choke, along with how that controls his momentum, is totally exactly the same as Ike. They are not fundamentally the same at all. Ike's moves being slow have little impact given that he controls his movement more than Ganon. Ganon is only a beast if you don't know how to handle him.

There are plenty of effective ways to keep Ganon away. Ike is much more mobile and thus does not suffer the same flaws, despite having an identical attack speed. Having him kill like Ganon would make HIM in turn ********. I mean I'm sure that's fine for the Ike main, but then Ganon would lose his very own incentive as well.

Also, ending up behind someone during a move, let alone a blade dance, is the result of two factors, one of which is DI, and the other of which could be momentum. This does not mean Roy ****ed up, this means he can predict and punish DI.

 

[trash?]

actually no, even 2.5 ganon, in comparison to the rest of the cast, was pretty god damn awful

what in the hell are you smoking, and can I have some so I can pretend DDD is good too

 

[Fortress]

Like I said:

Ganondorf = turd.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

What in the hell is happening here?

Ike is just bad Ganon?
Ganon is OP?
Ganon was a turd in Melee?

NOTHING MAKES SENSE ANYMORE!

 

[Fortress]

What in the hell is happening here?

Ike is just bad Ganon?
Ganon is OP?
Ganon was a turd in Melee?

NOTHING MAKES SENSE ANYMORE!

Oh, come on, even you know that Ganondorf had more than a hard time in Melee.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

More than a hard time? Sure. I'm not trying to say the guy was top-tier or anything, but he did alright all things considered. He was far from being a "turd" though.

 

[Fortress]

More than a hard time? Sure. I'm not trying to say the guy was top-tier or anything, but he did alright all things considered. He was far from being a "turd" though.

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTPPPPPPTPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTPPPPPPTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

That's me typing what the kids call a 'raspberry'.

 

[kupo15]

Movement speed-slow, Christ, it's like I can't **** with you or something. Loosen up. That was the idea of me butting in in the first place.

lol well when you have half of dozen ppl flaming your post and their contents are flaming about something they thought you said but didn't...you know? I couldn't tell if you were playing dumb on purpose to slander my viewpoint or simply joking lol Sorry if I misinterpreted

Mostly fndamentally the same? Ganon and Ike? Yeah, Ganon's movelist being structured around the Flame Choke, along with how that controls his momentum, is totally exactly the same as Ike. They are not fundamentally the same at all. Ike's moves being slow have little impact given that he controls his movement more than Ganon. Ganon is only a beast if you don't know how to handle him.

Uh...yea? I didn't say there strategies are the same, I've been talking about the importance difference between a characters' movement speed and their moveset speed the entire time. Never did I ever mention that Ike has a flame choke type thing or things like this and I even acknowledged what aspects that make them different.
Ike's movement speed is fast, Ganon is not as much = movement is structurally different
Ike's moveset speed is slow (as in the hitboxes come out slow), Ganon is the same but are still slightly faster than Ike's = movesets speed is fundamentally the same. They both rely on their position moreso than the fast characters in the game because their hitboxes come out slower than average. I don't think I could possibly be any more clearer.

There are plenty of effective ways to keep Ganon away. Ike is much more mobile and thus does not suffer the same flaws, despite having an identical attack speed. Having him kill like Ganon would make HIM in turn ********. I mean I'm sure that's fine for the Ike main, but then Ganon would lose his very own incentive as well.

No, not really. How would Ganon lose his own incentive if Ike could kill like him? Dude, superior movement speed doesn't mean **** if your hitboxes come out really slow. So Ike can cover FD in a blink of an eye. Big whoop. I would like to see you pull off a QD across the stage into a Fsmash. Yea....that speed reallly did him some good, huh? And don't try to counter my example by saying "well it didn't work because you chose a slow move" when you just stated that "Ike's slow moves have little impact given his movement control."

Also, ending up behind someone during a move, let alone a blade dance, is the result of two factors, one of which is DI, and the other of which could be momentum. This does not mean Roy ****ed up, this means he can predict and punish DI.

I never said Roy was ****ed up...I used it as an example to support Vro's OP. This move example is completely different than simply "adjusting to your opponents DI." First off, its the only move I can think of that you can change the direction MID-MOVE. Second, why does this move need to be buffed in that way? It would be like if we allowed the raptor boost to reverse its direction mid-move because the opponent successfully mitigated the attack with a dodge. That would be a purposeful and completely valid change...right?

what in the hell are you smoking, and can I have some so I can pretend DDD is good too

Here you go!

What in the hell is happening here?

Ike is just bad Ganon?
Ganon is OP?
Ganon was a turd in Melee?

NOTHING MAKES SENSE ANYMORE!

lol

 

[Fortress]

lol well when you have half of dozen ppl flaming your post and their contents are flaming about something they thought you said but didn't...you know? I couldn't tell if you were playing dumb on purpose to slander my viewpoint or simply joking lol Sorry if I misinterpreted

...there are people flaming my post? I'm in the wrong thread, I think.

No, you didn't misinterpret. Or, maybe you did. Whatever, whichever works. I'm just filling in for DMG as referee and comedic relief.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ike an inferior Ganon is laughable in every way, and if my previous points don't refute it enough because apparently movement doesn't matter at all(even though that's the core of Smash itself which is what Ganon has so little of compared to Ike hence his DRAWBACK), I can talk recovery all day. Ganon's is ass, Ike's is not. Even with that puny uppercut at the end of his Up+B, Ganon's recovery is atrocious compared to Ike's. I recommend checking the Ike character boards and getting to learn what you may or may not be missing with this character because he is far from inferior to Ganon.

Also to answer why Roy's sword dance should be buffed, probably because otherwise there's no real reason to use it since Roy's other options would override it, maybe? It's nice to not obsolete B moves completely(Although like Marth's, you can use it for recovery, but only the first bit). Plus it's an interesting idea that you seem inclined to spit on because you're making assumptions that it's ridiculous and/or unnecessary despite not having the character on-hand or accessible, plus lacking MU knowledge against said move. Looks are deceiving.

It is also the FOURTH part of Roy's sword dance which means he has to go through 3 other animations to actually get it, so if he ****s up and whiffs, he's going to eat dirt because nobody is letting his sword dance animation go all the way like a fool. Oh, and the punish DI thing? I think of it a DI read because if they DI in the other direction, the backwards hit will not have hitboxes in front of him lol, so it's a prediction thing there.

I don't know why you're so hesitant to look at change and new ideas immediately negatively because they do not look absolutely perfect on paper or something. You're not going to know thirdhand and it's best to see for yourself before you try and denounce the move as a waste of time or a dumb idea. Phoenix Wright in a fighting game was the absolute dumbest thing ever to me and believe it or not, it worked really well. I think a move where someone TURNS AROUND in the middle of the move in Smash is not that foreign of a concept. The fact that it hasn't happened befor-oh wait, Falcon Punch(and yes, I'll count this as mid move despite it not being a part of a string of attacks).

I guess change is just the kryptonite for some people. Oh well.

 

[Fortress]

Ike an inferior Ganon is laughable in every way

Let me stop you there, disregard everything else you said, and point out that everybody's an inferior Ganondorf.

You know it.

 

[kupo15]

@TTTTTTsd
Are you even reading what I am saying because you are picking out things I say in one context and arguing against them in a completely different context! I never said "Movement" as an entity doesn't matter. Clearly movement "as an entity" is the most important thing in Fighting Games, let alone video games in general. I said...what good is great movement when your attacks are really slow? Give Bowser Sonic's speed and Ike's mobility, also make every move come out on frame 200 (do I need to exaggerate this number anymore?) What you have is a VERY fast and mobile character, for the sake of argument, the best mobility in the cast but the slowest of slow moves. What the hell good does that God Tier movement do for this new Bowser? Jack...****....

And why the hell are you talking about recovery? I never compared Ike's vs Ganon's recovery. Ike's movement speed may be better than Ganon's but his moves come out slower to even matter unless you plan on playing with an Ike whose arsenal consists of QD, jab, grab and bair. Those are really the only moves that are fast enough to be positively influenced by the movement options Ike gains via his QD.

Ike feels like a worse Ganon because his hitboxes come out slower yet are not nearly as powerful when he should be very powerful. Must I quote PM's website?

Ike is obviously a very powerful character, but, as a powerful character, he often finds himself in danger when power alone won't suffice.

Keep telling me that when Ganon's fair is killing you faster than your Fsmash is killing him...

I am not against change, just bad ones. PM makes some good changes but it also makes some bad ones.

And haha, wow you actually tried to dis-prove my point with Falcon punch? I was wondering if you would make that mistake as it holds no water. ALL specials in smash can be reversed but in order to do that you must input the reversal input AT THE BEGINNING of the move. You can't input a forward facing Falcon punch then decide at the "falco-NNNNNNNNNNN" to reverse the direction. The fact that Falcon/Ganon have a turnaround animation for the move in no way reflects that one can reverse the move mid-move but is merely a graphical touch they decided to add. Nice try.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's about as mid move as Roy's if you go by technicalities. Falcon's punch is not an immediate turnaround nor is it graphical, since you input the command during the startup(or the middle, as I would call it because the move is already initiated.) Technically the idea and premise is the same except here it actually has a use. Whether or not you agree with the above, however, you can count Yoshi's egg rolling move too, if you want a more concise example(adding on things, we have Wario Bike, Jigglypuff's Roll).

I still recommend checking out Ike character boards because they're not having any problems compared to Ganon who hasn't been as successful as Ike has as far as tournament results go, as well.

I still think you're jumping the gun on this Roy thing, too. I'd give it some time before you say stuff about it that's either positive or negative. I don't know if it'll be good or not, all I know is that it hits behind the guy and can probably punish things or serve a purpose. Whether this will be good or bad, time will tell, but not letting it finish or show itself off isn't going to help anybody and restricting creativity isn't good either.

I still think Ike overall easily outperforms Ganon with the right tech, easily. In fact, before 2.6, lots of people could. Ganon STILL isn't that great compared to most others.

Also I'm sorry the website is being general not specific(jab lol.)

 

[kupo15]

You input the Reversal Direction BEFORE you press B for the Falcon punch to reverse it. In Melee the turnaround was immediate...instant flip. In brawl/pm its not an immediate flip...graphically. Whether the move looks like melee's insta-flip or brawls turnaround animation who cares what it looks like as long as the reversal hits the same frames in the opposite direction. Whatever happens before that hitbox comes out really doesn't matter as its purely graphical.

Fine I'll give you the Egg Roll! lol but if you think you can point to the Egg Roll as the hard counter to my statement and call it a day then I don't even know what to say. Its simply an exception to the rule.. you find me a move that acts as if Link could turn his second fsmash swipe in the other direction, then we'll talk but other than that, nice job finding that exception haha

You know what, I'm entirely ok with saying that maybe Roy's reversal slash won't be bad. It could be good. As you said, its not out yet to "truly" see, however my point was never intended to prove that the move is going to be OP or broken, but to merely state that such a change is so out of the blue and unexpected that the validity of the change is grounds for suspicion of PM's direction.

I really don't believe Ike is better than ganon and there is no way he can "easily" outperform ganon but this is just my opinion against yours

 

[TTTTTsd]

Haha, looks like we've hit a crossroads at this point then. Kudos for that debate though I actually got into it. We'll see about Roy's thing indeed. I think if it did crap shield dmg and bad pushback it'd be a good trade but I don't know what the backroom is gonna surprise me with.

 

[kupo15]

I agree, we shall see! Thanks for the debate!

 

[Phaiyte]

The fact that Ike wins tournaments and Ganon doesn't still stands. Also, if you're using Ike's "slower" moves as a free form approach, you inherently also suck with Ike. Ike can literally fly across the stage and grab you for free, Ike can walljump and Fair further off the stage for free, Ike's Ftilt is faster, Ike's Dtilt AUTOCOMBOS INTO ITSELF for huge damage, Ike's moves are all faster than Ganon's AND cover more area, Ike can literally just press buttons and he might win. Ike is not slow /AT ALL/.

These things don't happen with Ganon, so I'm still wondering how in hell Ike is inferior.

 

[Fortress]

The fact that Ike wins tournaments and Ganon doesn't still stands. Also, if you're using Ike's "slower" moves as a free form approach, you inherently also suck with Ike. Ike can literally fly across the stage and grab you for free, Ike can walljump and Fair further off the stage for free, Ike's Ftilt is faster, Ike's Dtilt AUTOCOMBOS INTO ITSELF for huge damage, Ike's moves are all faster than Ganon's AND cover more area, Ike can literally just press buttons and he might win. Ike is not slow /AT ALL/.

These things don't happen with Ganon, so I'm still wondering how in hell Ike is inferior.

I put Hector onto Ike, play against everybody's main in the house, throw out F-Smashes and D-airs all day long, and come out with 8-9 kills a lot.

I suck with Ike. All I know is Quickdraw-cancelling with him. He's a blast.

 

[Oracle]

Wtf is this argument

 

[GP&B]

Your avatar is way too fitting for that response.

 

[cmart]

What is your signature Gamedominator06

It's giving me interest in a bad way

 

[Fortress]

I thought that it was The Last Remnant.

 

[GP&B]

Phantasy Star Online 2.

Also known as Waifu Simulator Online 2 or Market Star Online 2, take your pick.

 

[CyberZixx]

I thought that it was The Last Remnant.

I was just thinking about that game. Not a game of quality, if you ask me.

 

[Fortress]

I couldn't get into it, myself. As cool as the big fights are to me. I think it was the dialogue that ruined it for me.