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forced design
- Thread starter Vro
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JOE!
Smash Hero
Real talk time
I brought this up in another thread:
I brought this up in another thread:
Having techniques that took time to discover and master in Melee in reality can be replicated now that they are *known*. Is the feeling that it is "cheap" that new characters can have the same things "built in" instead of having to take years of figuring out to have access to? After all, those years of figuring stuff out is what even allowed them to have such moves/techs, so where is the argument?
Fortress
Smash Master
I don't really think there can be an argument. Not in favor of any side, anyway. I mean, come on, there's absolutely no way that any game could replicate the way that Melee's metagame developed over the years, and is continuing to expand. I'm sure P:M will, in time, have its own little 'growth spurt' in that department.
I'm not following the conversation at all.
I'm not following the conversation at all.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
It's aged incredibly well in certain aspects. Its replayability is second to none in my book and I wish PSO2 actually took more from it.
JOE!
Smash Hero
in a nutshell:
The case provided by the thread states that moves feel too "well designed" and "inorganic". I put out a theory that perhaps it is a combination of having played melee so long to see techniques emerge and then seeing new stuff pop up instantly (ie, had time to "accept" new techs as they slowly popped out of the woodwork). A new tech that is just suddenly designed could be jarring for this audience, but at the same time be nothing really "new" as things like Lucario's uthrow Bair (that still a thing?) emulates Uthrow-Uair by fox and the like.
If you catch my drift?
Fortress
Smash Master
Oh, yeah that makes sense. Of course things are going to feel 'canned' and 'pre-built' to a player who has played the game that P:M is modeled largely from for over ten years.
Seriously, when Melee was released we didn't have the internet to teach us random things about the game and now this mod is completely based around the internet in the first place. The main differences between then and now are that we didn't have resources then and now do, and we now basically know how to play the game already since it's based around almost the same engine. The PMBR doesn't directly tell you "hey you should always do this for this situation", no, you already do that for yourself because you're already familiar with the game's engine and you have the internet to watch videos of people that are inherently better than you at the game playing it and you just learn from them.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Right, I have a feeling that moves were designed pretty much to be like Uthrow-Uair (it's a good example). The speed of "discovery" however is just throwing people off and making it seem unfair because it's not something they're used to.
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
yeah. It feels pre-built but in reality it's not. The resources are just much more available than they were 10 years ago. But it's not just resources, it's experience, especially if this game is being built and theorized identically to Melee in most cases. With a game as old as Melee being the development direction as a gist, it's hard to make things not feel like they were, well, ambiguous, but in reality they are. It's just hard to be ambiguous in a fully fleshed out meta from a 10+ year old game.
I like to think of it like this, games like NSMB Wii or NSMB U, while easy in design itself, are made even easier because I've been playing Mario platformers for an extensive amount of time, ever since the early games. This gives me more experience in an identical playing field, kinda similar in comparison IMO.
I like to think of it like this, games like NSMB Wii or NSMB U, while easy in design itself, are made even easier because I've been playing Mario platformers for an extensive amount of time, ever since the early games. This gives me more experience in an identical playing field, kinda similar in comparison IMO.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys. I had a blast spending the better half of today reading (and re-reading to make sure I understood it all, screw your wall Strongbad lol) virtually the entirety of this thread as well as some other gaming philosophy mumbo-jumbo outside of Smashboards. While I DO have an opinion that I'd *LOVE* to share with you all, I'm not the best at articulating my points and I'm willing to admit that it could very well be faulty so instead I'll attempt to address a bigger picture here that I think is worth addressing, albeit somewhat out-of-place: Feedback.
I understand from a quote from Strongbad that you want it, mainly from the people that play this game. I love that, and I want to believe it. But as you well know, everything is subject to change.
Right now we're a mere couple dozen people discussing P:M on Smashboards. But I can assure you that sooooo many more people play this game, a whole lot more than just us. Not everyone's familiar with the Smashboards community, nor might they have the time/energy to keep up with it. But I have a friend up at U of H who *LOVES* P:M and plays it with other friends. He's disappointed whenever we want to play anything else. They play it practically every night and they're about a dozen strong now. They enjoy the more pick-up-and-play characters like Zelda and Ness; most of them have no real techskill but characters such as those don't demand it. And they have a great time doing it; it's hard not to smile watching them play. Heck, one of them plays Lucario and didn't even know how his combo chains worked, but he beat my D3 in a set because he knew when and how to attack (Insert laggy tv and "that wasn't my main" johns here). Playing with them taught me a lot of things, a lot of which were the last things on my mind when I arrived at the front gates of their dorm considering I came with the intention of getting in more practice before WHOBO 5, the tournament that I was attending over the next 2 days and the first tourney I'd be attending that had Melee as an event, the game I'd been playing competitively since it came out.
Whatever I learned there is completely irrelevant. What matters, is that I believe that they as well as other P:M fanatics have input that I think is worth considering in one way or another. And so I'm compelled to say this: you want to make P:M a game after the players' hearts? Get in touch with the players! ALL of the players! And how do you do this? Hunt for feedback! Not just from the 5 guys that spam in the social thread all the time and the 10 guys that lurk it (kidding, but still). Not just the shallow jerks on Youtube. Get it from all kinds of people who actively play; scour not just the internet but all sources available to you for as much feedback as possible.
Heck, TROLL for feedback! Tell everyone that Everything ISN'T Subject To Change for once, regardless of how true that is. Hell, release a "finished" version of the game already! Let people know that you're willing to stick to your guns regarding the game's current state unless the masses get off their asses (hue) and say otherwise.
Challenge people to give you feedback, exactly how I'm challenging you all to find it. See how many people you can get to enjoy playing your game at the same time.
I understand from a quote from Strongbad that you want it, mainly from the people that play this game. I love that, and I want to believe it. But as you well know, everything is subject to change.
Right now we're a mere couple dozen people discussing P:M on Smashboards. But I can assure you that sooooo many more people play this game, a whole lot more than just us. Not everyone's familiar with the Smashboards community, nor might they have the time/energy to keep up with it. But I have a friend up at U of H who *LOVES* P:M and plays it with other friends. He's disappointed whenever we want to play anything else. They play it practically every night and they're about a dozen strong now. They enjoy the more pick-up-and-play characters like Zelda and Ness; most of them have no real techskill but characters such as those don't demand it. And they have a great time doing it; it's hard not to smile watching them play. Heck, one of them plays Lucario and didn't even know how his combo chains worked, but he beat my D3 in a set because he knew when and how to attack (Insert laggy tv and "that wasn't my main" johns here). Playing with them taught me a lot of things, a lot of which were the last things on my mind when I arrived at the front gates of their dorm considering I came with the intention of getting in more practice before WHOBO 5, the tournament that I was attending over the next 2 days and the first tourney I'd be attending that had Melee as an event, the game I'd been playing competitively since it came out.
Whatever I learned there is completely irrelevant. What matters, is that I believe that they as well as other P:M fanatics have input that I think is worth considering in one way or another. And so I'm compelled to say this: you want to make P:M a game after the players' hearts? Get in touch with the players! ALL of the players! And how do you do this? Hunt for feedback! Not just from the 5 guys that spam in the social thread all the time and the 10 guys that lurk it (kidding, but still). Not just the shallow jerks on Youtube. Get it from all kinds of people who actively play; scour not just the internet but all sources available to you for as much feedback as possible.
Heck, TROLL for feedback! Tell everyone that Everything ISN'T Subject To Change for once, regardless of how true that is. Hell, release a "finished" version of the game already! Let people know that you're willing to stick to your guns regarding the game's current state unless the masses get off their asses (hue) and say otherwise.
Challenge people to give you feedback, exactly how I'm challenging you all to find it. See how many people you can get to enjoy playing your game at the same time.
Fortress
Smash Master
Not that I'm sorry for anything, but, I can't stand it when somebody calls out the work of the P:M staff, complaining that the game isn't 'done' or 'complete'. They'll release what they consider the full game when they're damn well ready to; they're the ones making it. Not only that, but I hope you realize that even after the 'full' release, that there will probably be updates, patches, and balances. You do know that, right? You're barking up the wrong tree if you want a one-hundred-percent complete game (which, just as a friendly tip to you, no game ever is 'complete').
It's called 'patching', 'updating', 'balancing'; whatever you want to call it. It's not a bad thing that the game doesn't have a 'finished' version as of yet. Well, unless you want the PM:BR to not work on it, balance it out, make sure it doesn't crash, fix the bugs, and be complete ****. Maybe that's what you want, but, I'm happy for all of the time being put into it.
B'uuuuuuh, like we're, you know, posting here on Smash Boards? Last I checked, PM:BR actively post, watch, and garner feedback from here.
Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure there are many more people in the Social thread than fifteen, and I'mpreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure that the Social thread isn't the first place PM:BR get their development feedback from. So, what bright idea did you have for locations for feedback to be gathered from? Just stick fliers all over town, hope random dopes who know nothing about the game catch wind of it?
Saito
Pranked!
Kidding, I'm sure that the PMBR values our feedback so long as it's constructive or critical.
Fortress
Smash Master
Kidding, I'm sure that the PMBR values our feedback so long as it's constructive or critical.
Ganon is a superior Ike because Ganon doesn't need his sword.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
I'd just like to point out that that isn't really a thing, at least not in comparison to Fox's up throw up air. In 2.5, the KB growth on up throw was increased + the angle is really weird and if you DI it correctly there's little chance for a bair follow up at kill %. Back air isn't nearly as potent as a kill move and doesn't combo into itself.
It's a bad comparison, Lucario only gets away with having limited follow ups on his throws because of the u/d throw DI mixup. Fox only has one combo throw but it's pretty much the best one you could ask for. Falcon has two and they're both amazing for combos even if you do DI them correctly.
I'm only going so far to correct you on this small example because I think it fits a trend of people misunderstanding the things they're comparing to old stuff and thinking it's better/more similar than it really is. Like I'm sure if you really wanted you could look at Lucas and force yourself to see nothing but an improved spacie. Not that I'm saying anyone has gone this far (though I wouldn't be surprised), but I think it's the kind of thing that goes on in a lot of minds to one degree or another.
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Ganon's much bigger where it counts, son.
a vehicle
Smash Apprentice
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- Jan 4, 2013
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- 124
I love this thread and the last 10 posts are ruining it
To discuss any further nonsense move on to another thread, thank you.
On Topic:
there is some forced design regarding recoveries, their priority is way off the charts.
It's like impossible to hit an opponent once their recovery hitbox is up, it's so strong that it's actually a better strategy to aim for the hit rather than for the ledge.
And one of the bullet points states that off-stage edge guarding should be riskier while on-stage safer.
So let me get this straight, if an opponent is heading back, you could either die from their super-high recovery hit box if you chase off-stage or you could wait it out until they grab the ledge from a position it's impossible to space in because it's always too far away and the invisibility frames come too early.
I used to be overly aggresive in melee, chasing everyone off the stage, landing hits, getting KOs at very low%. Good players were able to think around it, bad players would just die. But now, some clueless friend of mine who plays diddy kong only has to press side-b + up-b and he's back no matter what, for me the edge-guarding game is lost.
TL;DR just play fox and up-smash everyone
To discuss any further nonsense move on to another thread, thank you.
On Topic:
some exceptions? I can't even think of one recovery that take great skill to perform.
there is some forced design regarding recoveries, their priority is way off the charts.
It's like impossible to hit an opponent once their recovery hitbox is up, it's so strong that it's actually a better strategy to aim for the hit rather than for the ledge.
And one of the bullet points states that off-stage edge guarding should be riskier while on-stage safer.
So let me get this straight, if an opponent is heading back, you could either die from their super-high recovery hit box if you chase off-stage or you could wait it out until they grab the ledge from a position it's impossible to space in because it's always too far away and the invisibility frames come too early.
I used to be overly aggresive in melee, chasing everyone off the stage, landing hits, getting KOs at very low%. Good players were able to think around it, bad players would just die. But now, some clueless friend of mine who plays diddy kong only has to press side-b + up-b and he's back no matter what, for me the edge-guarding game is lost.
TL;DR just play fox and up-smash everyone
Yeah, I'm not so sure that recoveries require more skill this go around. If anything, edgeguarding has gotten more complicated because characters tend to have quite a bit of variety in how they can recover (don't even get me started on tethers) or their Upb has a hitbox that covers them better than Bowser/Luigi/etc. If you're Falcon or Marth or x old school recovery, yeah you do have more to worry about, but new gen recoveries are pretty good at not getting poopied on. Hell for Ivysaur, you might have to go out far to hit them, recover back to the edge or stage, then go back out again with a spike or stronger hit, and recover back again, and MAYBE still see that SOB still recover back.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
WTF? Just learn to edgeguard.
Correct me if I misunderstood your point, but I don't know about that. I mean, if the game is supposed to be balanced, then either those "hidden ATs" will mean that the characters who possess them will suck compared to the rest of the cast until these ATs are discovered, or that whenever a new AT is discovered by the players, then the character has to be immediately nerfed. The obvious solution would be to only add global ATs, the same way they left the Brawl ATs intact in example. But that doesn't help the flavor of the characters as much as those 'built in' techs that I see people complain about.
I know it was fun discovering ATs for your game (I have discovered about three Diddy ATs myself, it was more than three years ago and it still fills me with pride to this day, so yeah, I do know the feeling), but I don't see that being compatible with the definition I have of a balanced game.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Ah, I wasn't aware it no longer "worked" (I played a Lucario a lot in 2.1 and didn't really after that, so I wasn't aware uthrow was specifically altered). However the example still stands for other "new" combo throws such as Ivysaur's Dthrow -> Fair (or most any of her moves that hit in the area diagonally in front of her), or even ones that are just now being prominent such as DK's combos from a throw which you never saw too much of in melee, so it seems "new" in PM since DK is more popular and thus swaying public opinion more.
Its more like, "hidden" AT's that were in melee such as say the Super WD are now known to the community and can be intentionally recreated instead of being the happy accidents they were in melee. They also wouldn't be hidden and more be presented as Features. For example, Ike's QD if it existed in melee and without being told about it, the Walljump and jumping from it in general would be considered hidden ATs. In P:M, the move is described in detail with those techniques listed as features of the move and don't need to be "discovered". Make sense?
a vehicle
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2013
- Messages
- 124
This isn't a complaint, it's a suggestion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8RK1PNtECCA#t=772
The only time falcon leaves the stage to hit you with a knee, dies because you grab the ledge, grabbing the ledge is easy
The only time you chase off-stage you get caught in his up-b and bounced off the stage, you teched against the wall, if you hadn't you would have died. Teching against the wall is hard
The rest of the time you either wait each other in-stage or grabbing the ledge, gimps are nowhere to be seen
Very old video but works as an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tMO0bo1HnY
They chase each other off-stage every time, both have to do everything perfectly otherwise the die, it's harder to recover because you're missing one jump, the player doing the edge guard has an advantage that he earned by knocking the opponent off stage. Up-B's have low priority and even if you get hit by it it doesn't mean you die.
What I'm trying to say is that in P:M it feels like players trying to get back on-stage are being granted the defensive side of their recovery for free by making their up-b's super strong. This encourages defensive play style and it's harder to overplay your opponent.
- Joined
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- 26,560
I really can't stress this enough. Recoveries are far more abusable than people seem to realize. Players recover against every character, you only learn how to edgeguard against that character in that matchup. It'll be a while until people are as proficient at edgeguarding as they are at recovering, and that was true in Melee for a really long time. A couple characters have recoveries better than the average Melee one, but that was also true in Melee. It's a pretty rare occurrence when Peach or Jigglypuff are KO'd at low percent by means of edgeguard, for example.
People also tend to exaggerate how "bad" recoveries are in Melee. Whenever I see someone call Falco's recovery "awful" I just kind of giggle inside. Yeah, he dies when Falco gets read at the ledge 3 times in a row. Others just die by reactionary edgeguard loops with not much hope to recover. :/ Additionally, recovery is one of many aspects that contribute to how good a character is. Some characters are granted a good recovery because they're not that great on-stage. That's called character balance and uniqueness, and there's nothing wrong with it.
Some people have started using this thread as a way to john lol, completely missing the point. Calling characters that are worse than their own "forced designed" isn't an excuse for losing a winning matchup bro. #forcedjohns
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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a vehicle
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2013
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I'll let you ponder on what you just said, considering those 2 are melee veterans
@Stong Bad
What you're saying is true. However peach and jiggs have extremely long recoveries that offer very little defense. Get what I'm sayin'?
P:M's recoveries have very high hit box priority, it's not that they're longer, it's not that the character will die because it can't reach the stage, the problem emerges when the character can reach the ledge but the opponent can't do something about it
Squirtle, Mario, Diddy, Lucario. A few of the characters that are very difficult to edge guard even thought their strategy to reach the ledge is pretty straight forward
For many the best approach to it is doing nothing about it. Waiting until they grab the ledge and hope they mess up, which is unlikely
This isn't a john, I'm not losing matches because of this... it's boring watching games (and playing them) where you know players could be more aggresive but they aren't because it's not worth it
I'm not expecting to be RIGHT about this, but I'm not crazy either
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
You can't call someone out for using a Melee veteran in their argument and then turn around and use a Melee veteran in yours.
As for Squirtle, Lucario, and Duddy, I'm not sure I can be fair about them being hard to edgeguard. I play Charizard and DDD. Crouching and d-tilting works pretty well for the most part against many characters and Charizard can just time nairs appropriately to get a successful edgeguard on almost any character. Who is your main? Perhaps that will help legitimize your argument considering there are some characters who have a harder time edgeguarding the new cast.
JayMan-X
Smash Apprentice
I second this. A lot of brawl recoveries seem to tend to be extremely hard to edgeguard properly or consistently (or at least edgeguard in the way Melee edgeguards happen).
1 of 2 things usually happen when characters like Lucario or Squirtle are within reasonable distances to the ledge...
- they either get stuffed out by a really beefy attack with decent priority, which usually requires a good read on the recovery
- or they trade with something putting them closer to the stage, or just make it back to the stage altogther
I think I'm in the same boat w/ vehicle, im not sure if this is a really bad thing (maybe personal Johns about it not being melee, i cant tell)
but its something that should at least be looked at, because some of the Brawl recoveries dont feel like they fit in too well with the melee recoveries.
Yup, it does.
Tbh I prefer this system a lot so far. Taking what's good and making it a feature instead of a glitch/bug/exploit/whatever is basically my whole 'what I want ICs to be like' post in the character suggestion thread.
Yurya
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2012
- Messages
- 187
Are the recoveries that much better or are the edgeguarders just worse. Like StrongBad said, there are now many more characters recovering and more characters edgeguarding making the matchups much more complex than Melee. Melee top-tiers have been meticulously examined to find the weaknesses in their recoveries and strengths of their edgeguarding.
New recoveries have flaws, but it's the versatility that feels much higher. Like take any gliding character: you can find holes in how they recover and go for punishes, but you tend to have a decent window of when you start the glide, what angle you come at, whether you attack out of it, etc. Stuff isn't unstoppable, and people tend to be bad at punishing tether recoveries or "different" things, but I don't agree with the point that recovering feels much more skill based sans the linear recoveries who are crapping themselves against Ike Zard Wario Squirtle or x new character that has 30x ways to edgeguard simple things.
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I'm not sure I'd describe 5 jumps and pretty short duration aerials or a too-fast-to-react-to umbrella with high priority as "little defense"...
Except the only thing you've really explained is that you can't currently do anything about those recoveries. People who are good at Project M and actually learn matchups are able to edgeguard those characters with much more success than "aren't [edgeguarding] because it's not worth it" would suggest. Most of those characters have significant landlag on their recovery moves, and usually the best strategy to edgeguard them is to pressure them into using their Up-B (because you can hit them with invincible aerials if they wait too long) or well-timed hogs -> ledge stands, which is a strategy that usually isn't refined until later in a metagame. It's not intuitively obvious how one should go about edgeguarding Sheik for example, but people call her recovery relatively abusable because its 1 weakness is enough to be punished if the edgeguarder is proficient. These recoveries have also been designed with weaknesses in mind, but making them more exaggerated leads to ACTUAL "forced design" where the edgeguarding player is hand-fed an edgeguarding tactic without discovering/refining it and having to be good at it to find success.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
I'm not complaining that they haven't; I'm suggesting that they should.
And I don't demand a 100% finished game, just the use of that threat to their players, in that if they don't give them feedback the game won't go anywhere.Reiterating what I said earlier:
PMBR,
i challenj yoo, to release a "finished" version of the game. If you can manage, have a "deadline", or if you already do then let us all know when that "deadline" is. The game doesn't have to be balanced in order for people to provide meaningful feedback; not all feedback is about balance. Melee's a living testament to that - despite its flurry of subpar and wonky characters it's had a definite scene for the past 12 years, and of course we're all here because of Melee. If the small viable character roster really mattered, people would have moved on to other games. But they haven't, and if Evo has shown us anything it's that even if one very well-played character is all it takes to dominate the top 8 of a major tournament - whether that's completely true or not - the fans won't stop loving Melee. Try to get your players to feel the same way about Project:M.
a vehicle
Smash Apprentice
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- Jan 4, 2013
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- 124
Well in my example I named lucario, squirtle and diddy. What I was referring to is that it's impossible that a melee veteran would have a worse recovery in P:M than in melee, I think that leaving out fox, falco and sheik everyone got buffs. And the ledge occupancy range is so much higher, so the invincibility frames start way earlier.
My main? Thats a hard one, I can name characters i'm very good at: falco, marth, falcon, jiggs, lucas, fox, peach, luigi, luigi, luigi and luigi in that order
@Strong Bad
Only time can tell I guess
Fortress
Smash Master
stahp it doge
There's a big difference between how easy a recovery is to perform, and what a player needs to do to master it. Yes, Jigs has an incredible amount of jumps, and can recover from far away, and the action of jumping is easy to perform. However, learning the nuances of each matchup, when you can and can't use those jumps, when you should use pound to follow a jump, allllllll of these reactions and whatnot, that's something that takes great skill.
Oh, hey, Snake, I've got an arrow for you. And another. And another. And another. And another.
Fortress
Smash Master
-Sorry for the doublepost
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