Floaty Purposes [MEWTWO GENERAL]

[SpiderMad]

My $250 laptop runs it, given I got it on a slickdeal from slickdeals.net.

 

[Shadow Huan]

just to let you guys know, if there are any Project M only tournaments close to me after 3.0 comes you will be hearing about my Mewtwo/Bowser. I no longer give a **** about Melee but I will practice 3.0 quite a bit after it's release.

I doesn't afraid of anyone in this game

 

[Yurya]

so i have some money now, I can afford to drive to tournaments. I'm definitely going to be the best mewtwo. Get used to my name and figure out the best way to chant it *****es. Three syllables is awkward so you can abbreviate if you have to. King is my middle name

Dring King Foo!!!!!

 

[DrinkingFood]

it's funny, they originally signed me up for the tourney as DrinkingFool, and i had to go back and correct them, saying it makes even less sense than they thought.

 

[xFumbles]

I just got to play Mewtwo yesterday! Only got 3 games in, but theres a couple things I'd like to note. You can jump or float out of teleport if you saved your jump, but every time I teleported sideways or down, I lost my jump! But on the bright side, turning around during teleport is really easy and very handy! So if you want to teleport right and turn, you press Up B, Right, and in the middle of your movement to the right, you tap Left. One last thing, his tail hurt-box seems LONGER. When they said they fixed his hurt-boxes, I guess they mean proportional to his tail

 

[Shell]

Just a note -- teleporting side-ways or downwards does not remove your jump, not sure why that wasn't working for you.

 

[xFumbles]

Daym, I SD'd like 3 times trying to do that off stage. I didn't have tap jump...eh, I'm probably just getting hit out of float. I float a lot 'cuse I play Peach xD thanks for clearing that up, Shell.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I just got to play Mewtwo yesterday! Only got 3 games in, but theres a couple things I'd like to note. You can jump or float out of teleport if you saved your jump, but every time I teleported sideways or down, I lost my jump! But on the bright side, turning around during teleport is really easy and very handy! So if you want to teleport right and turn, you press Up B, Right, and in the middle of your movement to the right, you tap Left. One last thing, his tail hurt-box seems LONGER. When they said they fixed his hurt-boxes, I guess they mean proportional to his tail

As things are subject to change and that this character is a work in progress, but from the build I played, he could keep his double jump if he used teleport from the stage, no matter the direction it went in. Also there are hurtboxes in the tail, but they don't extend past his tail, even with the increase in length of it on the model. I can 100% confirm that you can clank with swords with his tail, so its indeed an improvement.

That being said....I'm still on the fence about being to act of teleport. I mean it doesn't necessarily break him, and considering some of the more ridiculous things some of the other characters can do currently, especially with their recoveries, it is a possibility he needs this to keep up. I also want to think this is a good change, but the more I play him, the more I feel like its unnecessary, that the light buffs to the other aspects of his design were enough, and it might be ultimately degenerative to his design. Its still hard to say though, but what do you guys think? Am I being crazy or what?

 

[xFumbles]

ok, as with tier speculation for M2, everyone at my tournament were trying to point out a ton of bad things, saying he will be bad unless his tail is disjointed...but us mewtwo mains here speculate he will be top tier. i...LOVE act out of teleport, but probably just because of how good i think it is. i hope he doesnt get/need a nerf...btw, dont use float agressively unless your low % mid stage or you wont beable to jump outa tele like i couldnt :D

 

[xFumbles]

I was just wondering if you can keep your opponent in constant hitstun during a grab (wobbling) in PM? Not like with Ice Climbers though. In Melee, Mewtwo could hold his Shadowball to keep someone in a grab constantly getting hit. Could this still be a possible team combo?

 

[Shadow Huan]

okay guys, i've kept quiet about the tail hurtbox thing for a while because I didn't want to come across as a whiner. which I'm not, I am hype as all get out to play the new Mewtwo lol.

but matching the hurtboxes to his tail and covering them with the attack hitboxes is only solving half the problem with Melee Mewtwo's tail. now that his tail is even bigger, good luck dash dancing and not getting hit in the tail by someone with good timing. when he is in hitstun and being comboed, he will still get hit with things that most characters wouldn't because of his huge tail.

some of this may have changed in his "i'm hit" pose I dk, and won't for sure till I get to test out the character for myself, but I really felt the need to put in my $0.02

 

[GunBlaze]

I just hope they make his tail cover his body so he doesn't get tail-poked ;_;

 

[ItalianStallion]

As things are subject to change and that this character is a work in progress, but from the build I played, he could keep his double jump if he used teleport from the stage, no matter the direction it went in. Also there are hurtboxes in the tail, but they don't extend past his tail, even with the increase in length of it on the model. I can 100% confirm that you can clank with swords with his tail, so its indeed an improvement.

That being said....I'm still on the fence about being to act of teleport. I mean it doesn't necessarily break him, and considering some of the more ridiculous things some of the other characters can do currently, especially with their recoveries, it is a possibility he needs this to keep up. I also want to think this is a good change, but the more I play him, the more I feel like its unnecessary, that the light buffs to the other aspects of his design were enough, and it might be ultimately degenerative to his design. Its still hard to say though, but what do you guys think? Am I being crazy or what?

Because of Mewtwo's aerials, which are kind of wonky in general, act out of teleport will not be degenerative to the game. Moves that you can use out of teleport will be situational. You can use up-air to try to keep an airborn opponent airborn, but it won't be as degenerative as falcon. You can use fair to try to pressure a shield, but it won't be as degenerative as Fox. You can use it for bair cross-ups to try to control space, but it won't be as degenerative as Marth. Mewtwo will only end up as high on tier lists as his community gets him to be. He's going to need a lot of love and creativity to get with the likes of characters who don't have to do as much to have a much more solid stage game, like Marth, Mario, Peach, Shiek, or the spacies. I actually might even guess a lot of people will end up putting Mewtwo near the bottom, until a player ends up consistently owning people with Mewtwo on stream, a la Professor Pro as Snake.

 

[Rikana]

now that his tail is even bigger, good luck dash dancing and not getting hit in the tail by someone with good timing. when he is in hitstun and being comboed, he will still get hit with things that most characters wouldn't because of his huge tail.

It is not bigger. This is a common misconception. Like I mentioned many times, his slimmer body gives the illusion that his tail is bigger. His tail remained the same size but his torso slimmed down.. so you can see how it might look "bigger"

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah...idk time will tell I guess. I suppose it merits being implemented into the meta, because of the many questions the move draws, to leave with just theory crafting and only a few people to test it. I'm going to keep a close eye on it though, and see how different mew2 players adapt with it, and how their opponents find best to interact with it. Hopefully I'm just being paranoid, but I really don't want mew2 to end up like one of those characters that everyone flocks to call shenanigans on after someone wins a tournament with him.

 

[xFumbles]

but shenanigan characters are the best <3

 

[Nguz95]

Zelda anyone?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

This guy knows what I'm talking about lol.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I don't know. I see Mewtwo being quite underwhelming to many people. I can't emphasize enough how wonky his aerials are. Sure, I'm talking more about Melee, and PM does buff them to make them less wonky, but it's not like a lot of other smash characters where as long as I know tech skill, I can kind of do stuff and possibly succeed. He's very strange. To further emphasize that, his double jump is also slow and awkward. It's great for recovery, but bad at anything for offense in any way, except for edgeguarding.

If you look at streams and see how players have been doing with him, it's overall very underwhelming. They don't utilize his advanced stuff much at all. They're not controlling the game with teleport (Of course, that's not going to end up happening anyways). And if they do win, it's normally because they are just a much better player than their opponent in the game in general (Spacing, tech, etc.). This is going to continue until someone just puts a lot of effort into him. And when we do have a player, or possibly a few, doing some cool things with him, Mewtwo will still not be called cheesy, because of the nature of what it means for his personal game to shine. It's kind of like Lucario at present. If a player does a really cool extended combo with Lucario, we don't dare call cheese because we know how hard it is to start and keep a Lucario combo going, and we know it isn't guaranteed and easy like Sheik f-tilt to fair. That's where Mewtwo will be. I'm not saying he will be underpowered, but I am saying that he's not going to be easy to use, and he won't end up having much, or any, cheese.

There are other characters to watch with a much closer eye at present. Mewtwo won't become the character everyone, or really anyone, complains about.

 

[Nguz95]

We have m2k on our team though...

 

[ItalianStallion]

We have m2k on our team though...

We sort of have M2K on our team. I think, and perhaps I am wrong about this, but I think that he said that he wouldn't main Mewtwo unless some things about him were tweaked (Buffed). I personally forsee him settling with a character like Roy rather than Mewtwo. Again, I could be proven wrong about this.

And although M2K is obviously a much better player than a large majority of smash players, Mewtwo isn't a character somebody can just coast with. A pocket Mewtwo that you only really use casually is not going to win you tournament matches unless there are people just horrendously unused to the match-up. Applying skills from other characters and thinking that's enough to skillfully use Mewtwo won't be enough either. I don't know if M2K ever went Mewtwo in a Melee tournament (Maybe in his early days), but it's entirely possible I have much more tournament experience with Mewtwo than he does. I would be pretty confident to say that many Melee Mewtwo mains played Mewtwo more than M2K ever has. I'm not necessarily comparing skill-sets (M2K can still kick my butt), but I'm rather saying that we won't really have M2K on our team unless he makes Mewtwo his main and puts a ton of effort into him. I actually think a relatively unknown person might end up impressing the community more with Mewtwo than a well-known person. It will all depend on who puts more time into learning everything about him.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I don't know if M2K ever went Mewtwo in a Melee tournament (Maybe in his early days), but it's entirely possible I have much more tournament experience with Mewtwo than he does. I would be pretty confident to say that many Melee Mewtwo mains played Mewtwo more than M2K ever has.

M2K goes Mewtwo in locals and early bracket all the time.

I think there are some tournaments where he went Mewtwo more than Marth this year.

 

[Silpheed]

Project M, thank you for doing what Nintendo failed to do, and that was fulfill my want of having Mewtwo in the latest Smash Bros. title.

And he looks amazing, at that. Much more aggressive than before... Can't wait until release day!

 

[Mr.Pickle]

That post made me feel a little more optimistic about it stallion. I don't think I'll be able to fully shake some doubt about it, but I'll try. Also I'll stop cluttering this thread with posts that don't contribute anything positive.

So in light of that, I have a question for you mew2 lovers. How useful, if it all, do you think disable will be now that it can hit opponents facing an opposite direction, or for that matter, how effective will it be against characters on both extreme ends of the size range?

 

[xFumbles]

disable is amazing. it can punish missed techs! IT CAN ACTUALLY HIT THEM WHEN THEY ARE BOUNCING. that means maybe itll hit someone big like bowser even if he is laying down. Jab to disable to jab to disable turbo combos BTW :3

 

[ItalianStallion]

That post made me feel a little more optimistic about it stallion. I don't think I'll be able to fully shake some doubt about it, but I'll try. Also I'll stop cluttering this thread with posts that don't contribute anything positive.

So in light of that, I have a question for you mew2 lovers. How useful, if it all, do you think disable will be now that it can hit opponents facing an opposite direction, or for that matter, how effective will it be against characters on both extreme ends of the size range?

It's OK to criticize or have negative posts, just expect some debate from myself and others.

Disable hitting foes not facing him is most useful to counteract dash dancing. A dash dancing Falcon out of Mewtwo's range can be possibly surprised by a wavedash in to a disable. And unlike Melee, it's no longer a game of chance where depending on which direction they were facing when the move hit them will determine if I am punished, or they are.

As for the size range, small size has always been tough for Mewtwo. One of Mewtwo's harder match-ups in Melee was Pichu because it was so hard to grab the sucker. That's why I think Squirtle will become an extremely hard match-up for Mewtwo. Landing a hit on Squirtle with Mewtwo is going to take some hard reads I think.

 

[Silpheed]

Things I noticed that are awesome;

One of Mewtwo's taunts. Love the retro Game Boy sound effect too from the original Pokemon titles.
MUCH MUCH MUCH better palettes, which appear to mimic the PKMN titles.

 

[Rikana]

Disable is great. Just don't throw it out often. Decently fast start up and paralyzes the opponent for a million years. It has good knockback on airborne foes too.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Disable is great. Just don't throw it out often. Decently fast start up and paralyzes the opponent for a million years. It has good knockback on airborne foes too.

Does disable do more than the one or less damage it did in melee? Does it still have that neat trick where if you disable a knocked down opponent at the peak of their bounce, they go into tumble and fall again? It was useless in Melee because nobody needs to add that little damage, and especially at the risk of losing a chance of a tech chase, but I'd love to have a reason to use that for bonus damage or just to **** with people I guess.

 

[Rikana]

We sort of have M2K on our team. I think, and perhaps I am wrong about this, but I think that he said that he wouldn't main Mewtwo unless some things about him were tweaked (Buffed). I personally forsee him settling with a character like Roy rather than Mewtwo. Again, I could be proven wrong about this.

And although M2K is obviously a much better player than a large majority of smash players, Mewtwo isn't a character somebody can just coast with. A pocket Mewtwo that you only really use casually is not going to win you tournament matches unless there are people just horrendously unused to the match-up. Applying skills from other characters and thinking that's enough to skillfully use Mewtwo won't be enough either. I don't know if M2K ever went Mewtwo in a Melee tournament (Maybe in his early days), but it's entirely possible I have much more tournament experience with Mewtwo than he does. I would be pretty confident to say that many Melee Mewtwo mains played Mewtwo more than M2K ever has. I'm not necessarily comparing skill-sets (M2K can still kick my butt), but I'm rather saying that we won't really have M2K on our team unless he makes Mewtwo his main and puts a ton of effort into him. I actually think a relatively unknown person might end up impressing the community more with Mewtwo than a well-known person. It will all depend on who puts more time into learning everything about him.

You don't have to be flashy to be good with a character. Its all about consistency. You can't be aggro using Mewtwo, that'll just get you killed. But yeah, teleport definitely does add some cool things for Mewtwo. Not sure if you checked out the video, but I had one posted a while back where I incorporated hover canceled aerials and teleports. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNTaxnLZF8Y

====================

And more teleport stuffzorz. Video is old but shows what you can do with teleport and other stuff. Those are hover canceled fairs by the way.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Does disable do more than the one or less damage it did in melee? Does it still have that neat trick where if you disable a knocked down opponent at the peak of their bounce, they go into tumble and fall again? It was useless in Melee because nobody needs to add that little damage, and especially at the risk of losing a chance of a tech chase, but I'd love to have a reason to use that for bonus damage or just to **** with people I guess.

It still does just one damage, and as of the build I've played, no it doesn't, or at least it never worked when I tried it. I don't think its necessary to have it do more damage because of the unique state it puts you in, but thats just what I think.

Also to add on to what stallion said, squirtle is pretty small and hard to hit, but mk is a lot worse. Disable completely misses him, you literally can't hit him with it if he is on the ground.

I don't particularly care for how little lag teleport has when used to get to the top platform, but meh, thats just me. Did like the hover canceled fair stuff, mostly because I can't do that **** lol, so I have respect for it.

 

[Shadow Huan]

the landing recovery on Teleport in Melee from special fall is 4 frames, so it's always been that fast.

@ Stallion: I dk what you meant by the Pichu MU being difficult, that's one of the very few MUs in Melee that Mewtwo solidly wins lol. Squirtle and Metaknight could potentially be trouble though.

the Disable buff sounds interesting

 

[DrinkingFood]

the landing recovery on Teleport in Melee from special fall is 4 frames, so it's always been that fast.

But it's only been that fast on platforms that you don't land in a grounded animation on, and even then you have to wait at the very least a few frames to fall to the platform. Grounded ending animation is 30 frames in melee, teleporting to the top BF platform in melee gives you that animation. In P:M, grounded animation ends (almost) instantly, so you can act straight from there instead of having to teleport above a platform them land on it.

Is anyone else gonna have fun teleporting circles around triple platform lay outs or just me

 

[Shadow Huan]

wait, it's 4 frames of landing recovery without entering the Special Fall animation?

I can see how that could raise some eyebrows

 

[DrinkingFood]

wait, it's 4 frames of landing recovery without entering the Special Fall animation?

I can see how that could raise some eyebrows

his grounded movement is gonna be amazing if he can teleport sideways onto level ground with that same ending animation, even disregarding his wavedash, due to his running speed and teleport.

 

[xFumbles]

if you teleport from the ground directly left/right (except some stages like green hill for some reason) you get the long animation.

 

[DrinkingFood]

that's a silly limitation tbh
I know it's necessary for him to not have a stupidly ridiculous ridiculous run away game; had he been designed differently though, it wouldn't be an issue. That's really my only gripe about anything in P:M though. Some of the limitations or abilities given to characters are very... well arbitrary, for lack a more discriptive word or phrase. Mario gets two wall jumps out of up-b. Why only two? Why not one, or three? or any other number? Same with Ike's side-b. Peach gets both a float and a jump, mewtwo has to choose? Charizard loses his jumps when he glides, but doesn't lose his glide if he DJs twice, not the other way around, or both, or neither? Pit's glides don't affect his jumps or vice versa, and in fact he gets a second glide but only if his first one starts from the ground. Metaknight is restricted to using his up-b to get a glide, and can't do anything, shouldn't his wings work just as well as the other two? There are many cases in P:M like these.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this as a comparison to melee or anything else in particular. Melee has things like this too. Granted, there are less of them because there is less variety in melee, and because sakurai had less investment in balance. The point is actually that the questions of "Well exactly how many of this?" and "Why not this many instead of this many, and make this better/worse to compensate?" never have to come up if things are designed properly. But an issue with proper design is, *drum roll* P:MBR is trying to be too faithful to Melee to disregard its design inconsistencies. One such inconsistency in Melee being Mewtwo having no lag when landing from the aerial ending animation of teleport, but 30 frames of grounded endlag. It makes the grounded version of the move borderline useless and restricts the potential the character could have had in terms of freedom of play. As it is, the players are not free to make the choice to use the move's grounded ending for any reason that isn't necessity or the whim of saying "Well yes I can in fact use this variation of the move just to prove it is possible within the game to do this", because in terms of ability, it's almost always the worse option. The process of SHing, teleporting, and landing is always quicker than the grounded version of the same thing, so why give an option that has negligible use? I don't mean niche use, I'm fine with that kind of thing, but this is not the case. If what fumbles said is true, than this is also the case for MewTwo:M's grounded teleport. I'm not saying P:MBR should go back and redesign the character, but more thought can at least be put into this. Making the move slower to act out of than the current aerial ending (but not by a lot) while making this endlag univeral is always an option, and might even give room to the idea of shortening teleport; this would make so it has more varied use while being slightly worse in any one individual use. Being entirely optimal in some cases and entirely sub-optimal in others seems like bad design for a game that's supposed to incorporate the spirit of freedom and player style. There can and should be choices that are more or less likely to be the best choice in any one circumstance, but there should never be anything that's completely useless or invalidates anything else entirely.

 

[xFumbles]

they probably made ground teleport bad so that you have to be in the air and you cant do angled down teleports to shorten it. they dont want mewtwo's already unpredictable movements to become impossible to read. and also, those comparisons you made about ike and mario's wall jumps and the glides were already tried and were broken. ike wall jumping infinitely is a nightmare, and metaknights aerial options are already amazing. many many people in the backroom and melee veterans like taj have agreed on mewtwo's arsenal of attacks, and when 3.0 is out, we will put their character to the test. honestly, i think teleport is already broken...but we will have to wait to see how he goes against higher tiers and different match-ups before we can know for sure.

 

[DrinkingFood]

xfumbles, I already know those things. my point in those paragraphs wasn't that the arbitrary numbers should be changed, but that the mechanics should be reworked so we don't have that issue.

As it is, there's no way mewtwo's teleport is broken. It goes a set distance, and mewtwo's aerials are probably now only slightly better than mediocre rather than straight up bad.

 

[Shadow Huan]

while I respect Taj, he took Melee Mewtwo to it's limits and probably wouldn't have approved of a big difference between the two. like vBrawl Lucario to Lucario:M for example.

a buffed Melee Mewtwo with very few new moves is very narrow minded and a little disappointing imo. I'd like him to get more of an Roy:M treatment (besides having the same B as Marth); lots of new animations without changing the overall feeling of the character.

fortunately, everything is subject to change, and once the new Mewtwo is out for a while he can be tweaked. we'll have to wait and see