Fire Juggling by Darkmusician

[Levitas]

It's freakin' bigger than PK flash! By a lot! Now if only her kick were as easy to sweetspot as in melee...

 

[Dark Luna]

It's freakin' bigger than PK flash! By a lot! Now if only her kick were as easy to sweetspot as in melee...

It's more difficult to sweetspot? I'm not really suprised, since it's been buffed quite a bit...

But yeah, Her Din's fire looks awesome, looks like it has so many uses. The invisible hitbox is cool too, since it could then trick enemies, and even leave them underestimating it's range.

 

[Darkmusician]

Ya everyone will have to get used to it's new splash damage.

 

[Wildfire393]

It's more difficult to sweetspot? I'm not really suprised, since it's been buffed quite a bit....

Yes, the kick is quite a bit more difficult to sweetspot. I've been playing Melee Zelda a lot lately, due to her massive dominance in 4 player FFA games. So obviously I was very excited about Zelda being a "legit" character in Brawl. So when I had the opportunity to play, I tried out Zelda a couple of times (not enough to get a good feel for her B-moves, unfortunately, but I did get a decent feel for her aerials). There were a number of times where I would kick in a way that would definitely have been a sweetspot in Melee, and it would whiff. This leads me to believe that A) The window of sweetspotting is a lot smaller, B) the area of the sweetspot is smaller, or C) both. It definitely seems like you have to have Zelda's foot be overlapping with the other character's sprite (and not just like a foot, or that's a "graze") in the first frame or first few frames of the attack in order to get the sweet spot. But when you do, oh man, it is so satisfying.

Next time I get an opportunity to play, I'm going to try Fire Juggling (and some Naryu's Love). It should help even the field against the friend I'm playing with, who mostly plays Olimar and Dedede, and projectile spams like crazy.

Edit: Her Black outfit is the ONLY way to go, by the way.

 

[Levitas]

It feels like her sweetspot is quite a bit closer to her, like if you took the sweetspot from melee and moved it towards her head a little. It feels like trying to land a rest from melee, as strange as that sounds.

 

[Darkmusician]

Yes, the kick is quite a bit more difficult to sweetspot. I've been playing Melee Zelda a lot lately, due to her massive dominance in 4 player FFA games. So obviously I was very excited about Zelda being a "legit" character in Brawl. So when I had the opportunity to play, I tried out Zelda a couple of times (not enough to get a good feel for her B-moves, unfortunately, but I did get a decent feel for her aerials). There were a number of times where I would kick in a way that would definitely have been a sweetspot in Melee, and it would whiff. This leads me to believe that A) The window of sweetspotting is a lot smaller, B) the area of the sweetspot is smaller, or C) both. It definitely seems like you have to have Zelda's foot be overlapping with the other character's sprite (and not just like a foot, or that's a "graze") in the first frame or first few frames of the attack in order to get the sweet spot. But when you do, oh man, it is so satisfying.

Next time I get an opportunity to play, I'm going to try Fire Juggling (and some Naryu's Love). It should help even the field against the friend I'm playing with, who mostly plays Olimar and Dedede, and projectile spams like crazy.

Edit: Her Black outfit is the ONLY way to go, by the way.

Yeah reflecting the pikmin helps alot cause then they actually latch on and attack their master.

 

[Rampage]

This is amazing. I'm starting to see a competitive scene for brawl now that I'm watching all these advanced techniques crawling it's way in slowly.

I'm excited.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

This is amazing. I'm starting to see a competitive scene for brawl now that I'm watching all these advanced techniques crawling it's way in slowly.

I'm excited.

Certainly. While the pessimists are whining that the game-spanning AT's are gone, they forget to notice the many many new ones that individuals characters can take advantage of. It might never get to the depth of Melee, but it'll come really close.

Brawl might be the Melee that doesn't involve so much button mashing (figure of speech).

 

[Wildfire393]

Yeah reflecting the pikmin helps alot cause then they actually latch on and attack their master.

Yeah, I'd seen this happen once when messing around with Falco's Reflector.

Quick question: Din's Fire has a large Area of Effect. Do pikmin with Olimar caught in this AoE take damage and die (from your experience)? I'm leaning towards no, as I haven't seen much of anything hit Pikmin that aren't being thrown somehow in an attack, but I figure you have more experience doing this than I have.

Also, any other tips against Olimar?

 

[Darkmusician]

Yeah, I'd seen this happen once when messing around with Falco's Reflector.

Quick question: Din's Fire has a large Area of Effect. Do pikmin with Olimar caught in this AoE take damage and die (from your experience)? I'm leaning towards no, as I haven't seen much of anything hit Pikmin that aren't being thrown somehow in an attack, but I figure you have more experience doing this than I have.

Also, any other tips against Olimar?

I know that he throws them they can wander around and then yeah if you hit them they die. Never saw them die from Din's splash damage.

Olimar is weird. But in a good way. It really threw me off when I played against him for the first time. My tips would be...

1. Try to keep olimar on the defensive as much as possible. Don't worry about the pikmin just concentrate on Olimar.

2. Olimar can pull Pikmin before the match starts and right after his respawn. So wait patiently and space yourself away while he's still invincible.

3. Olimar is light so just concentrate on getting good hits. As long as you can keep up with the damage you'll come out on top in the long run.

As I get more intimate with the match ups I'll make a character match up list or something like that. :]

 

[goodkid]

Hmm, it seems like this game will require you to have knowledge of the character before the match.

 

[Luthien]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtcNY4yYkGo

At 0:11 and 0:18. Hey DM, what is this? Is it simply DI, or does Din's Fire actually pull the victim towards the explosion now? I seem to recall it repelling the victim when it hit them in Melee, but here it seems to drag them into the explosion to the point they pass through it the opposite direction.

Does this mean that if you want to set up for a fair, you need to detonate Din's Fire right in front of your opponent to drag them into you ('twas the opposite in Melee)? Are there different knockback directions for different parts of the explosion? I'm not sure if this is simply DI, because I don't seem to remember being able to DI with your sheild on. I can't tell with just videos, given the mixed results and such. I'm under the impression that the bottom part of the ball attracts, and the rest repels, but I can't be sure.

Would you mind checking this out?

 

[Darkmusician]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtcNY4yYkGo

At 0:11 and 0:18. Hey DM, what is this? Is it simply DI, or does Din's Fire actually pull the victim towards the explosion now? I seem to recall it repelling the victim when it hit them in Melee, but here it seems to drag them into the explosion to the point they pass through it the opposite direction.

Does this mean that if you want to set up for a fair, you need to detonate Din's Fire right in front of your opponent to drag them into you ('twas the opposite in Melee)? Are there different knockback directions for different parts of the explosion? I'm not sure if this is simply DI, because I don't seem to remember being able to DI with your sheild on. I can't tell with just videos, given the mixed results and such. I'm under the impression that the bottom part of the ball attracts, and the rest repels, but I can't be sure.

Would you mind checking this out?

I have no clue as to what that is. Since the percent is low it could've been just DI.
I will ask my friend to help me experiment with the new properties of Din's Fire. Especially at low percents.

 

[Luthien]

I have no clue as to what that is. Since the percent is low it could've been just DI.
I will ask my friend to help me experiment with the new properties of Din's Fire. Especially at low percents.

Thanks again. Wow, I need this game so I can mess with this stuff myself... still, your videos are fun to watch and will get me through the next 20 days. Go you!

 

[Lingy]

19 days.. so close.. yet so far away. *dies* (I'm counting down to Saturday, not Sunday )

 

[dori.]

Din's Fire is really good compared to its Melee version.

I can confirm this because my friend kept juggling me with it

 

[Excel_Zero]

I love the new Din's Fire. I managed to link a Din's Fire with an uair, resulting a very sweet kill. :D

 

[Darkmusician]

I love the new Din's Fire. I managed to link a Din's Fire with an uair, resulting a very sweet kill. :D

Upair kills used to be my favorite in Melee. But oh man if Din's Fire can lead to dair spike. That would be broke da mouth. Fo sho.

By the way Zero FX I am really loving your sig.

 

[Atacusbebop123]

I'll use Din's Fire whether its useful or not haha

 

[Darkmusician]

I'll use Din's Fire whether its useful or not haha

That's the spirit. :]

 

[Lingy]

Have you guys ever done a Zelda v. Zelda match? I've never done one before.. it'll be quite interesting

 

[Darkmusician]

Have you guys ever done a Zelda v. Zelda match? I've never done one before.. it'll be quite interesting

I'll see if anyone is up for this week.

Man I need to start writing all of this down. Lots of stuff to do this week. Hopefully I'll get through most of it.

 

[PwnyRide]

By the looks of it, the way i played in Melee would be more suited to Brawl, so no loss there.

Well, in such a way that i'd use N-air whenever i could (it was always great when you can get most of the hits in), not to mention overusing din's fire (I love the practical uses, the requirement for prediction, which mimmicked a class i used to play on an Online game, Mesmers of Guild Wars. You know come to think of it, Mesmers play alot like Zelda, anyway back on topic) I used my tilts for kills alot, so all is looking good.

Im sure theres a way we can totally exploit Din's fire to piss people off. I mean, if we piss people off, then our job is complete, right?

If i recall correctly, Dins fire can pass through otherwise impassable walls in Luigis Mansion. Id love to be able to compile a list of terrain that dins fire is able to pass through.
Alas, however, if, as is rumoured, us Aussies DO get Brawl on the 6th of June, i'll just go back to sleep

 

[Tmnt1837]

Throughout my playing with zelda i have fallen in love with dins fire. The move so fantastic. Edgegaurding is simple and mind games are easy with it. I often don't often unleach the ball untill it passes the other player. this way it does more damage and it increases the range in knockback aswell as confusing the **** out of the other player.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I like to use din's fire for top-o-the screen KOs when I send my enemy up and away.

it's also VERY useful at punishing campers or fleeers because it gets stronger the farther away from zelda it is... however, any attack, dodge or sheild protects the enemy from the attack.

 

[Wildfire393]

One thing that is just so amazing about this attack is the mindgame possibilities of a projectile that has that kind of explosion bias. I mean, the automatic response of everyone, including Sakurai, is that "Air-Dodging can let you easily escape the Fire Juggle". But when do they air-dodge? If they're waiting until the ball is on top of them, you can detonate it early and have them hit it still. If they try to dodge just before it hits them, you can wait an extra half-second and detonate it behind them. If you're doing it at enough range, there should be enough possible area in which they will be hit by the fire that it will be nearly impossible to dodge correctly consistantly.

Yet again, this is an aspect of Zelda that was both improved AND made more skill-intensive.

Thumbs up, Sakurai.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

one of my friends has got the air dodging timing down, my din's fire rarely hits him, but my other friends keep getting nailed.

(I don't see how it's difficult, just dodge as soon as zelda yells)

 

[Drake3]

Yet again, this is an aspect of Zelda that was both improved AND made more skill-intensive.

Thumbs up, Sakurai.

Except in her update he explicitly tells everybody the downfall to all of her special attacks. That jerk.

 

[Zone]

Except in her update he explicitly tells everybody the downfall to all of her special attacks. That jerk.

lol yea, You don't see him telling everyone the negatives of most other characters. Except maybe when he told us Mario's F.L.U.D.D. doesn't do any dmg.

"Look at all these cool moves we gave Snake"

"Look at these zelda moves? ok guys this is how you look for the weaknesses in her attack!"

 

[Darkmusician]

Although...."If my memory serves me right," The dojo says this about Din's Fire. "A short burst of flame... Uh, but it’s not too powerful..." Dayum!

 

[Wildfire393]

one of my friends has got the air dodging timing down, my din's fire rarely hits him, but my other friends keep getting nailed.

(I don't see how it's difficult, just dodge as soon as zelda yells)

Well then you need to vary up your timings a little. Move the fire differently (have it come in from below, from above, detonate behind, etc). Heck, forcing an airdodge at an inopportune time is at least as good as a hit. If you can get them to airdodge and still be lagging after it right next to you, that's basically a free L-kick or other finisher.

If you're getting consistantly predicted, be less predictable. Shorthop Din's fire to move yourself forward, detonate it earlier than they'd expect, land and then jump into an Up Air (given proper spacing, of course). There are so many options here, it's crazy. Firejuggling is supposed to be an option for building percents or possibly high percentage kills. It shouldn't be something you depend on 100% of the time and always try to do. Next time your opponent is off the stage, don't necessarily default to Firejuggling. Try a Dair Thunder Spike, or an off-stage Lightning Kick. Or run off the edge, Naryu's Love into hugging edge-hog (this SHOULD work, but it's something I need to try). Naryu's Love should hit close opponents and will reflect projectiles from far away recovering opponents (specifically Ivysaur, Pit, Dedede, Olimar, Link, etc). Edgehog on top of this will stop many of these characters from recovering.

 

[Darkmusician]

Wildfire speaks the truth. Well said man.

I'm gonna add that Naryu's Love trick to my list of things to try. Nice one.

 

[Wildfire393]

Wildfire speaks the truth. Well said man.

I'm gonna add that Naryu's Love trick to my list of things to try. Nice one.

It was a thought. I know you can just run off the edge and press towards it to grab, but I figure a quick attack that keeps you mostly in place could be used to augment that. And especially given that two of the tether-dependant characters can try to spam projectiles to clear the ledge (Ivysaur's Razor Leaf and Olimar's Pikmin Throw), the fact that this attack is also a reflector should come into play nicely. Could also force multi-jumpers with recovering projectile spams (Dedede and Pit specifically) to use their Up B to try to make the platform rather than the ledge, at which point you can punish at will. Those seem like the characters it'd be most pertinent against. Assuming it works, of course.

 

[Kyle_Wattula]

Jais (Snake) vs Som (Zelda)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHZFr3FUhMU

Din's fire. LOL

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well then you need to vary up your timings a little. Move the fire differently (have it come in from below, from above, detonate behind, etc). Heck, forcing an airdodge at an inopportune time is at least as good as a hit. If you can get them to airdodge and still be lagging after it right next to you, that's basically a free L-kick or other finisher.

If you're getting consistantly predicted, be less predictable. Shorthop Din's fire to move yourself forward, detonate it earlier than they'd expect, land and then jump into an Up Air (given proper spacing, of course). There are so many options here, it's crazy. Firejuggling is supposed to be an option for building percents or possibly high percentage kills. It shouldn't be something you depend on 100% of the time and always try to do. Next time your opponent is off the stage, don't necessarily default to Firejuggling. Try a Dair Thunder Spike, or an off-stage Lightning Kick. Or run off the edge, Naryu's Love into hugging edge-hog (this SHOULD work, but it's something I need to try). Naryu's Love should hit close opponents and will reflect projectiles from far away recovering opponents (specifically Ivysaur, Pit, Dedede, Olimar, Link, etc). Edgehog on top of this will stop many of these characters from recovering.

it's not that. I do vary my timing... it's just, I think all you need to do is look at zelda and dodge as soon as she starts to gesture for din's fire to detonate.

and her lightning kick and dair, while powerful, are near useless against tiny characters.

Din's fire isn't a good edgeguarding move most time because it pops them up, making it even easier to recover. I just use it when they are near the top of the screen. almost a definite KO

 

[Wildfire393]

it's not that. I do vary my timing... it's just, I think all you need to do is look at zelda and dodge as soon as she starts to gesture for din's fire to detonate.

and her lightning kick and dair, while powerful, are near useless against tiny characters.

Din's fire isn't a good edgeguarding move most time because it pops them up, making it even easier to recover. I just use it when they are near the top of the screen. almost a definite KO

It's a shame that they made it that easy to air-dodge. Maybe it's character dependant. I'm betting some don't have an air dodge quick enough or long-lasting enough to dodge the Din's Fire fully. Plus, if they're tumbling they might not be able to airdodge. You can also hit characters trying to use their Up-B's. You can also try to force the airdodge at the wrong time. Try keeping the fire closer to the stage or ledge, forcing them in to a lose/lose situation, where they either take the fire hit or airdodge in to your waiting attacks.

Right. It isn't an edgeguard move. It's a harrassment/damage building move for off the edge characters, similar to PK Thunder. Its primary usage is going to be building some quick damage as a follow up to a non-lethal hit, or tricking someone into airdodging at an inopportune moment. And at high enough percents, it can kill.

Darkmusician, do you care to weigh in on the effectiveness of her three Lightning Kicks (Dair included) against small characters? I'd think that the fact that you can't hit them as easily should be partially negated by the fact that they are lighter, and thus KO'd easier. And Zelda's Smashes, Tilts, Nairs, Upairs, Din's Fire, and Naryu's Love should be able to rack them into lethal percentages and finish them off fairly quick, even if you can't land a Lightning Kick or Spike. The uptilt supposedly can kill a Mario off the top at a bit over 100%, so against smaller characters, this move can probably kill a bit under 100%. And the Dtilt can pop them up in to it.

 

[Supersmashbro125]

WOO!Din's fire!!!you are gonna own with it!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It's a shame that they made it that easy to air-dodge. Maybe it's character dependant. I'm betting some don't have an air dodge quick enough or long-lasting enough to dodge the Din's Fire fully. Plus, if they're tumbling they might not be able to airdodge. You can also hit characters trying to use their Up-B's. You can also try to force the airdodge at the wrong time. Try keeping the fire closer to the stage or ledge, forcing them in to a lose/lose situation, where they either take the fire hit or airdodge in to your waiting attacks.

Right. It isn't an edgeguard move. It's a harrassment/damage building move for off the edge characters, similar to PK Thunder. Its primary usage is going to be building some quick damage as a follow up to a non-lethal hit, or tricking someone into airdodging at an inopportune moment. And at high enough percents, it can kill.

Darkmusician, do you care to weigh in on the effectiveness of her three Lightning Kicks (Dair included) against small characters? I'd think that the fact that you can't hit them as easily should be partially negated by the fact that they are lighter, and thus KO'd easier. And Zelda's Smashes, Tilts, Nairs, Upairs, Din's Fire, and Naryu's Love should be able to rack them into lethal percentages and finish them off fairly quick, even if you can't land a Lightning Kick or Spike. The uptilt supposedly can kill a Mario off the top at a bit over 100%, so against smaller characters, this move can probably kill a bit under 100%. And the Dtilt can pop them up in to it.

actually no, because smal characters can DI out of her Fsmash and Usmash and pretty easily avoid most of her aerials... it's just zelda's weakness

 

[Wildfire393]

actually no, because smal characters can DI out of her Fsmash and Usmash and pretty easily avoid most of her aerials... it's just zelda's weakness

Ok, so your Fsmash and Usmash aren't good against them and your L-kicks are hard to land... You still have the Dsmash (strong and fast), Neutral Air (easy to hit with multi-hit, good damage), Dtilt (quick, pops them up), Utilt (very high knockback, good kill), Ftilt (decent knockback), Utilt (great kill move), Din's Fire, Naryu's Love, your dash attack, your throws. And if you can land an L-Kick, Upair, or Thunder Spike, it's basically game over right there due to their lightness. I'd say this is a weakness that can be worked around.

 

[Excel_Zero]

By the way Zero FX I am really loving your sig.

Thanks. =]

As of today, I managed to link Din's Fire with a fair. Too good! :D