Fire Juggling by Darkmusician

[Darkmusician]

Sup guys. Din's fire is great now isn't it? People when people used to describe it in Melee, they would use words such as worthless, pointless, or horrible. But now man how much better it is.

It travels quickly and the angles that you can bend it are still nice.
You can deliver fire after fire in rapid motion much faster and easier than in melee. (making the juggling possible)
The explosion of the fire is much larger and much stronger.

I'm dubbing this technique Fire Juggling. Short Demonstration video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbb3Aci-gLw

I think that it opens up lots of possibilities with edge guarding, a finishing move and a Zelda projectile game.

I also think that everyone that enjoyed using Din's Fire in Melee even a little bit is loving this upgrade alot.

I want those who have Brawl already to share their thoughts on the new Din's Fire. Thoughts on things like Spamming or no spamming. Possible uses as an approach, or a retreat. Up close mindgames with it and sniping with it. Uses as a set up for a kick? Or does the new game physics render this impossible? Edgeguarding mind games with it and possible ways to trap an opponent off the stage with it.

I am by no means an authority on Brawl or Brawl Zelda so I am very curious to learn from others and to learn with everyone else. But I am learning and absorbing more every time I play and I'll provide any insight and answer any questions that I can. (the PMs have been pouring in) lolz

And even if you don't own Brawl come with questions or comments too. It's all a learning process.

 

[:034:]

Wow, that is pretty awesome. Din's Fire is actually USEFUL this time around! :D

 

[Milln]

That is a HAX hitbox. Wow. =o

 

[Pappioll]

Mmmmm.. Im loving Fire Juggling. Seems like I will like Din's even more in Brawl. (Yes, I actually liked the move even though it sucked in Melee.)

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Can Din's still be used to set up Fairs/Bairs?

Also, Din's Fire spamming has the great ability to restore your other attacks, especially the aforementioned Fair/Bair.

Not only that, but it looks to have great KO power even when spammed, and from a long distance, the increased hitbox is almost miss-proof. Kudos to Sakurai for the most multi-useful projectile in the game >_<

 

[Lingy]

Can Din's still be used to set up Fairs/Bairs?

Also, Din's Fire spamming has the great ability to restore your other attacks, especially the aforementioned Fair/Bair.

Not only that, but it looks to have great KO power even when spammed, and from a long distance, the increased hitbox is almost miss-proof. Kudos to Sakurai for the most multi-useful projectile in the game >_<

It'll probably be harder, seeing as how Din's Fire now sends the opponent straight up.

 

[Ekkusu]

why not just call it juggling? and it's not like you're the first one to show it

 

[Rion Prower]

why not just call it juggling? and it's not like you're the first one to show it

Well, Fox/Falco/Wolf(?) have a nick called Shine, right? Or Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain? Zelda can have a Fire Juggle catch phrase... can't she? :x

It's ridiculous how much more workable Din's Fire is in this game. Definitely some great highlights there D.M.. Power to the Din's Fire KOs!

 

[Soluble Toast]

Din's fire is a beast now :O
My god. It's range is amazing now. I can't wait to start using it. I liked Din's in Melee, but I think I'm gonna LOVE it in Brawl.

This " Fire Juggling" is very comforting. It was usable in Melee. You could " fire juggle" your opponent closer to the edge of the screen, but it was never enough to kill. Glad to see Din's Fire now has the potential to deal a finishing blow.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh. My. God. That is obscene. It's actually fast now. And that power... *faints*

 

[Darkmusician]

Well, Fox/Falco/Wolf(?) have a nick called Shine, right? Or Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain? Zelda can have a Fire Juggle catch phrase... can't she? :x

It's ridiculous how much more workable Din's Fire is in this game. Definitely some great highlights there D.M.. Power to the Din's Fire KOs!

I couldn't have said it better myself. b^_^d

Oh yeah and to answer Damayn's questions yeah Din's Fire can still do about 11-10 damage per hit even when used over and over so it's still very good damage. 10 damage twice equals and kick pretty much.

I have been trying soooo hard to use Din's Fire as a set up. I really really wanna try Din's Fire to Dair. I have a feeling that DI and damage percent and their location off the stage will all be factors.

I haven't seen Din's Fire to kick yet. But I'll let you know if I or one of my friends do it.

 

[Zelda_Sheik]

My friends used to call it "The Ball of Shame". It was one of the worst projectiles on the game. Now is one of the best. Every Now every Zelda player will use Din's Fire.

 

[Darkmusician]

My friends used to call it "The Ball of Shame". It was one of the worst projectiles on the game. Now is one of the best. Every Now every Zelda player will use Din's Fire.

Yeah Din's Fire was like a really slow fire cracker. And now, it's like a jet powered grenade.

Seriously, the explosion radius is so insane. The old saying that close enough only counts for horse shoes and hand grenade. Add din's fire to the list. lolz It'll be great to get the timing down for when they grab the ledge.

I was also really impressed with how fast I could use it over and over.

 

[Rion Prower]

I laughed out loud at the firecracker to grenade analogy~ :x (because it's true).

 

[Darkmusician]

I laughed out loud at the firecracker to grenade analogy~ :x (because it's true).

Yayuhz!!! ^_O>

 

[-spAzn-]

Awesome stuff, it's so much faster and I love it. Can't wait to try this all out for myself. Killing people with Din's Fire now, this is madness *some reason after saying that i'm expecting something*. Here comes the spam, with Din's Fire of course .

 

[TheLake]

Hooray zeldas a nuclear pyrotechnic ranger now!

That'll look good with the black dress....

 

[Darkmusician]

Hooray zeldas a nuclear pyrotechnic ranger now!

That'll look good with the black dress....

I'll leave the looking sexy in black to you. :]

 

[Levitas]

Why try to use it as something other than a kill move that leads into itself? When I played with Zelda earlier today, it did a really good job of augmenting the lightning kicks as a kill move/edgeguard.

That being said, Zelda is really fun in brawl. I like her new stuff a lot.

 

[Darkmusician]

Why try to use it as something other than a kill move that leads into itself? When I played with Zelda earlier today, it did a really good job of augmenting the lightning kicks as a kill move/edgeguard.

That being said, Zelda is really fun in brawl. I like her new stuff a lot.

Why? Well it's variety. And it's that many more options for Zelda. The more we know about what Zelda can do, the more we have to work with.

And like you said, it's alot of fun to do it.

 

[Ztarfish]

Two questions:
1. Does it always send the opponent up? No matter where you hit?
2. Is it easy to use? (vague question but it worries me)

 

[Darkmusician]

Two questions:
1. Does it always send the opponent up? No matter where you hit?
2. Is it easy to use? (vague question but it worries me)

Yes. From what I 've seen it sends you in an upwards direction. Even if you hit them as they're recovering from below and you hit them above. The higher their damage the more up it sends them. At high damage the stun from the fire allows them to be juggled for the kill.

I found using this pretty easy because I love being creative with Din's Fire in Melee. It's easy to spam, but as players adapt to it the real fun is gonna be getting tricky with it and mixing up the timing of the fires. Since air dodges are unlimited. I'll keep working on it to come up with some good edge guards.

 

[goodkid]

Fire jugg. is awesome. Do you know about the knockback of farore's wind?

 

[Darkmusician]

Fire jugg. is awesome. Do you know about the knockback of farore's wind?

Yep I did it a couple of times. Do you have any ideas on that?

 

[Krytha]

I think since Din's Fire sends people up, the most interesting combo I can think of is din's to sweetspotted Dair on characters with verticle recoveries like Dedede and Marth. SH the fire, and glide over to the edge while in the air. The fire will send them upwards in stun and you might be able to short hop dair them for the kill. I dunno, that's the theory anyway. Someone try it out.

 

[Lingy]

DF should be really easy to land if you used it in Melee. I lol at how small the hitbox is every time I see it on Melee now.

 

[Darkmusician]

I think since Din's Fire sends people up, the most interesting combo I can think of is din's to sweetspotted Dair on characters with verticle recoveries like Dedede and Marth. SH the fire, and glide over to the edge while in the air. The fire will send them upwards in stun and you might be able to short hop dair them for the kill. I dunno, that's the theory anyway. Someone try it out.

Hahaha you read my mind man. I am already thinking about ways to trap characters like that.
Once I get more comfortable off stage I think I'll have some new ideas.

 

[Airgemini]

Wow Din's Fire is looking awseome!
The radius of the explosion is sick...

 

[Luthien]

Does anyone think that a medium-high percentages, you can cast Din's Fire right in front of someone, then a second right behind them, then right in front of them again? I wonder if it would hit them back and forth, instead of in just one steady direction like I've seen in most of the videos. Sort of like a game of tennis, only there's only one person playing and your opponent is the ball. It doesn't seem likely, but seeing as how I can't experiment (much to my shagrin), I was wondering if someone could experiment with this or change it into something workable.

 

[Darkmusician]

Does anyone think that a medium-high percentages, you can cast Din's Fire right in front of someone, then a second right behind them, then right in front of them again? I wonder if it would hit them back and forth, instead of in just one steady direction like I've seen in most of the videos. Sort of like a game of tennis, only there's only one person playing and your opponent is the ball. It doesn't seem likely, but seeing as how I can't experiment (much to my shagrin), I was wondering if someone could experiment with this or change it into something workable.

That is an excellent suggestion. And a very evil tactic this would be. :]

I'll remember to try this out as well.

 

[Lingy]

A bit off topic, but.. does Farore's wind sweetspot?

Diagram..


(Z)


______
|

if Zelda uses Farore's wind downwards, will she just go past the ledge instead of grabbing it?

 

[gdtyrael]

Well I main Zelda and already played it a lot with my friends and something I need to tell you about Din's Fire is that it really rox but the game itself this time make some downsides on it, maybe it would be overpowered otherwise. At the first battles I remember killing all my friends easily with dins fire after knocking them out of the stage, they were trying to recover but It was **** easy to juggly them to death upwards with Dins fire. SO they realized that now in Brawl you have Infinite Air-dodges at your disposal, so after this discovery, I hardly was able again to kill them with dins fire, basically cause its so easy to anyone to air dodge all upcoming dins fires at them, till they land at the stage, the only benefit of keeping spamming is because you somewhat trouble ppl with keeping them air dodging so they came up landing vunerable in the stage.

Then now I realized that dins fire is good for close fights and not for edgeguarding that much, mainly cause its so much faster now.

 

[Darkmusician]

Well I main Zelda and already played it a lot with my friends and something I need to tell you about Din's Fire is that it really rox but the game itself this time make some downsides on it, maybe it would be overpowered otherwise. At the first battles I remember killing all my friends easily with dins fire after knocking them out of the stage, they were trying to recover but It was **** easy to juggly them to death upwards with Dins fire. SO they realized that now in Brawl you have Infinite Air-dodges at your disposal, so after this discovery, I hardly was able again to kill them with dins fire, basically cause its so easy to anyone to air dodge all upcoming dins fires at them, till they land at the stage, the only benefit of keeping spamming is because you somewhat trouble ppl with keeping them air dodging so they came up landing vunerable in the stage.

Then now I realized that dins fire is good for close fights and not for edgeguarding that much, mainly cause its so much faster now.

Yes this is very true and I kinda half mentioned this in my first post. Multiple air dodges does balance the power of projectiles like Din's Fire that are fast, large hitbox and can home in on it's target manuel or otherwise.

However I think that this is where the mindgames and strategy come into play. I will find ways to use this need to airdodge to my advantage. Air dodging off stage is the opponents only option if they don't want to get hit. Zelda on the other hand has all the options standing on the edge guarding them. I want to see what kind of traps and tricks I can implement as I play the game more. Of course if you just spam the fire over and over trying to just hit them for the sake of hitting them they will catch on and dodge. But if you're tricky about it and mix up your game, then you can do some real damage I think.

I'll also be able to give you all more information on edge guarding each specific character the more I play against them. I have yet to play against all of the characters.

And Lingy, I've tried to sweet spot from above but I think Darkatma already told me that she won't grab. Something about how the frames of her Up B are not the same anymore. I don't think you can do a Edge Stall either. I only tried it once and died so yeah. I'm only been able to sweet spot from above very VERY close to the ledge while coming down. I think you have to touch the ledge before you vanish though. This is another great question and I'll experiment and get back to you on it this week.

 

[Krytha]

Has anyone tried accelerating the Sheik->Zelda/Zelda->Sheik transformation by rapidly tapping B (like Luigi's down B) yet? I suggested this a while ago, but no one talked about it, or appeared to test it. If you can do that, its a great way to remove decay.

Back to Din's fire - The stun length on land should be helpful to set up kicks since theyre harder to sweetspot. Maybe placing one slightly behind the opponent will send them forward enough for you to meet them in the air with a fair for the kill. It looks like you'll have to double jump quickly though because most (if not all) of the trajectory seems vertical.

Edit. After looking at more videos, there seems to be a lot of DI potential out of a fire hit as the natural trajectory IS straight up. On the bright side, DIing away sets up more offstage combos while DIing towards is very punishable. I think the greatest functionality for offstage chasing with the fire will be the mindgames and forcing people to recover how you want them to. Air dodging means you won't have a guaranteed hit, but the dodge animation can be lengthy and there is a period after the dodge where they can't immediately dodge again - which is a potentially good time to kick them in the face. Add in the fact that the DF hitbox isn't limited to the animation and you'll have people dodging all the time to make sure they aren't hit even if it doesn't look close. Hopefully Zelda can take advantage of that.

 

[Darkmusician]

Yep. The whole bait and punish thing. I'll try out the Transformation thing.

In my match vs MellowD's Mario I bait him to air dodge with a Fire and run up and kick him. That's exactly the kind of traps that I'm talking about.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Hmm... that would certainly add quite a facet to Zelda's game. I love how they made her so much more skill based, yet so much more powerful this time around.

Not that she wasn't skill based before, what with being the sensitive little doll that she was.

 

[Doodle2000]

Look at that Area Range, PK Flash Range =P

 

[Darkmusician]

Hmm... that would certainly add quite a facet to Zelda's game. I love how they made her so much more skill based, yet so much more powerful this time around.

Not that she wasn't skill based before, what with being the sensitive little doll that she was.

My thoughts exactly. I think that Brawl will still be skilled based but in a different way from Melee.

 

[Dark Luna]

Aside from Pit's arrows, this could possibly be the best projectile in the game. It now has power, speed, better control and a large area of effect. I think the new Din's Fire symbolizes how much better Zelda is this time round.

 

[Darkmusician]

Aside from Pit's arrows, this could possibly be the best projectile in the game. It now has power, speed, better control and a large area of effect. I think the new Din's Fire symbolizes how much better Zelda is this time round.

Yeah I think so too. It's the speed that really impressed me. You can shoot it repeatedly so fast. And yes the hit box is huge. It's so useful for poking a character through their shrinking shield.