Fire Emblem: The Discussion Thread (keep FE Fates story under spoilertags)

[Raziek]

Deadeye also did triple damage (In RD), so there's that. Basically useless in PoR, but other units had way better claim to the 4 scrolls anyway.

One for Ike because Aether. The other three to Paladins, a Swordmaster, Nephenee, or Boyd.

It's totally fair to compare Mages and Archers because they are essentially the same function.

Primarily 2 range, fragile defenses, likes to kill stuff from "not standing next to it" range.

Mages are (almost always) better because they have 1-2 range, so they can counter (letting dodge-tanks like Serra exist) andhit Res (which enemies have way less of), as shinpichu correctly pointed out.

They do the same thing, Mages just do it better. Archers at least had anti-flier status over the mages before FE9, but that tended to balance out ANYWAY just because of Wyvern Riders having high enough defense (and low enough res) to mostly offset the bonus damage.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Deadeye also did triple damage (In RD), so there's that. Basically useless in PoR, but other units had way better claim to the 4 scrolls anyway.

So in RD it's basically a 2nd chance for a critical, which is only mildly useful.

One for Ike because Aether. The other three to Paladins, a Swordmaster, Nephenee, or Boyd.

Fix'd for truth. Neph and the two Swordies other than Stefan don't have the capacity to use the Mastery skills. And Boyd has enough Strength that he doesn't even really need Colossus to do ridiculous damage.

 

[Raziek]

Forgot about the capacity end of things. It's been ages since I played PoR.

Yeah, certainly wouldn't want to ditch Adept, Vantage or Wrath.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Actually you might be able to ditch adept for Astra. The only downside is Astra's lower Trigger rate. (skill% for Adept vs. skill/2% for Astra)

Edit: Though the damage advantage of Astra might not be enough to justify the reduced trigger chance(x2.5 Damage for Astra vs x2 for Adept Damage)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

About the archer situation... I think they are completely fine so long as the map set-up and enemy units are right. This is very apparent in FE11 and FE12 and to a lesser extent FE13. On the increased difficulty when a direct attack is incredibly fatal to a unit you want to start avoiding counterattacks as much as possible. 2 range is one of the earliest and best ways to get around increased enemy attack power. Therefore, when early on many units lack 2 range weapons your archers and mages will start to shine the most. Archers become great for chip damage.

However, I think the situation where archers were clearly great units to deploy is FE12. You are seeing Dracoknights in chapter 2, 3, 5, 9. For early chapters. Which have very massive defensive power for your early units and you need to slay them quickly. Then, you hit the dragon chapters in FE12 (11, 12, 13) where Wyverns have massive movement and high damage. Which also need to be eradicated quickly and bows are perfect for the job.

I only played FE12 up to H2 where speed stats were not as crucial, but on lunatic and lunatic reverse if your units are not close to capping speed by now they run the risk of getting doubled later on. Anyway, lunatic mode has incredibly strict requirements on speed caps. Dracoknights which run a max speed of 23 is too slow and will get doubled by many things. Along with the other classes being too slow to double. You pretty much need to reclass to sniper (29), horseman (30), or swordmaster to have any hope of doubling later enemies. In that environment, bows and the class archery/sniper are excellent to use in FE12 for strategic reasons.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I see...so that's why Archers are considered useful in FE12.

Still think more needs to be done to buff archers starting out to make them useful overall. Armour knights could also really use a buff or two hundred.

 

[Raziek]

Armor knights will pretty much always fundamentally suck unless there are more smaller, enclosed maps or defend objectives. 4(5) movement is just painful in larger, outdoor maps.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Armor knights will pretty much always fundamentally suck unless there are more smaller, enclosed maps or defend objectives. 4(5) movement is just painful in larger, outdoor maps.

Well, let's take care of that. Why do armour knights need to be tuck with terrible movement?

Also, one minor thing that could be done is to make t1 armours be able to use two weapons, and Generals being able to use all physical weapons, while t1 Cavs/mounts can only use one, . It's a small buff, but it's something to consider.

Also, giving Generals innate Pavise/Aegis like I suggested before might be useful. As well as reducing the number of enemy armourslayers/hammers/etc.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I see...so that's why Archers are considered useful in FE12.

Still think more needs to be done to buff archers starting out to make them useful overall. Armour knights could also really use a buff or two hundred.

Armor knights will pretty much always fundamentally suck unless there are more smaller, enclosed maps or defend objectives. 4(5) movement is just painful in larger, outdoor maps.

Again, I think the units overall are quite fine so long as you give them opportunities to be useful over other characters. Having high amount of hard to kill flying units like in FE12 is great for deploying archers because they kill that stuff best. Armors are really just for tanking stuff (unless you are Gatrie in FE10) to hold points. So yeah, increase the amount of "hold" type scenarios that you need defense for to give armors a boost. Despite FE7 being horse back haven I think Oswin could still see many reasons for deployment because of his ability to simply choke points for small tasks. Maybe not necessarily so.

What I would like to see is for Archers to have a unique quick swap ability. If targeted at close range they can swap to say a sword or two range bow when counterattacked by the enemy. Sort of inspired by the Legolas character lol

 

[Raziek]

I'm renewing work on an S-rank HHM run. Would anyone be interested in me keeping journals on the ordeal & posting them here?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I would be fine with that. I would especially like to see your calculations if you do any since I have never tried doing an S rank of HHM before. I tried a casual one with EHM, but ended up losing out on experience in the last 2 chapters >_>

 

[Raziek]

I would be fine with that. I would especially like to see your calculations if you do any since I have never tried doing an S rank of HHM before. I tried a casual one with EHM, but ended up losing out on experience in the last 2 chapters >_>

I don't do any calculations, I typically just fly by the seat of my pants. I got to Cog of Destiny with the S-rank intact on my last attempt, but never finished that run. Starting fresh for this one.

I'll also make a quick note that I have (and make use of) the MK:DD bonus disc items, which means some extra funds and/or stat boosters to make use of.

 

[Ussi]

I'll be interested in your logs, so i'll read them. Will you be going for S rank Lyn route as well?


To the archer disscusion, consistent 2-3 range is more reasonable to keep them unique, with 2-4 on longbows. It lets them attack behind mages/throwing weapons. The only issue with this and probably why IS hasn't implemented 2-3 range as the standard range for archers would be outranging bosses for easy potshots. Tbh this should only matter to bosses on thrones where they are given a throwing weapon. A solution is to add a throne buff to take half damage from 3+ range. Or maybe just nullify all damage from 3+ range to prevent easy boss abuse.

 

[Raziek]

As it turns out, I just finished blazing (pun intended) through LHM.

I'll be interested in your logs, so i'll read them. Will you be going for S rank Lyn route as well?
.

No, I aim to prepare myself for the HHM run itself without doing anything I would consider breaking the game.

Personally, I permit:
- Dance/Staff abuse to get Nils to level 7, so I can make the 19xx decision based on funds/exp vs. tactics at the time
- Very slight boss abuse, limited to "I want X character to kill the boss, even if it takes 10 turns."
- Resetting for a favorable level up if I get a really ****ty one.

But I exclude:
- Abusing Staff/Dance like crazy. (Like lvl 20 Nils/Serra or something)
- Boss abusing like crazy/Using Wallace's Knight's Crest (On past extreme times, I've had a 20/1 Sain going into HHM)
- Deliberately manipulating the RNG by the arrow trick to get perfect (or near perfect) levels.

Logs for Chapter 1-10 - Lyn Mode (Hard):

Tactician: Raziek
Affinity: Thunder (Serra, Erk, Wallace, Hector, Bartre, Heath, Geitz)

Prologue: Not much to say here. Lyn got HP, Str, Skill, Luck, so I'm happy with that.

Ch. 1: (5) Resets due to ****ty levels. Kent: Skill, Speed, Res. Sain: Hp, Speed, Res. I'll take it. Speed is what I was looking for, and Res for both is nice.

Ch. 2: (3) Resets. Great levels for Kent & Sain. Decent for Lyn (Hp, Str).

Ch. 3: Florina get. She's on the edge of level 2. Sain gets more solid levels, doing really well at 9 strength, 7 speed, 8 (!) defense.

Ch. 4: Sain gets 2 decent lvls, Florina gets 2 great ones (Strx2). Kent gets an ok one, Lyn gets an ok, Will gets a great one (Hp, Str, Skill, Speed, Luck).

<Stopped tracking resets here for the moment because I was away from my comp>

Ch. 5: Florina gets Hp, Str, Def. Sain and Kent each get a decent level. Erk gets a perfect level off killing Bug!

Ch. 6: Erk gets ANOTHER near perfect level, all but Magic and Res. Angelic Robe given to Florina to make her a definite powerhouse for the Pirate Ship to save turns (Ch. 18) and for letting her jump in with less babying needed within HHM itself.

Ch. 7: Lyn gets Speed, Luck, Defense. Serra gets a solid level. Lucius' first is not great, getting only skill. Requirement met for 7x.

Ch. 7x: Easy work, Kent and Sain are monster trucks at this point. Matt gets some crucial strength, Erk gets speed.

Ch. 8: Fed 2 levels to Erk, who is seriously impressing me, at 7 magic and 12 speed at level 6. This will make Ch. 14 (Pris' level) a lot less painful.

Ch. 9: Slightly abused Eagler by giving Dorcas “rights to the kill”. Dorcas grabs 3 good levels, with a speed point in there, while Serra and Nils each grab a few healing/dancing. Early game units for HHM are looking in great shape, but I worry I may have neglected Lyn a bit.

Ch. 10: Grabbed a few solid levels for Matt, Lyn, Florina, and let Erk handle Lundgren. Energy Ring going to Matthew to make the first few levels easier.

Stats Going in to HHM, compared to averages (difference in brackets) of that level:
[collapse="Raz's Units"]
Lyn (7) : 20 (-0.2) HP, 7 (+0.6) STR, 11 (+0.4) SKL, 11 (-1.6) SPD, 8 (-0.3) LCK, 3 (-0.2) DEF, 2 (+0.2) RES
Sain (8): 26 (+1.4) HP, 10 (-2.2) STR, 9 (+2.55) SKL, 8 (-0.8) SPD, 6 (-0.45) LCK, 8 (+0.6) DEF, 4 (+2.6) RES
Kent (8): 24 (-1.95) HP, 9 (+0.2) STR, 10 (+0.5) SKL, 11 (+0.85) SPD, 2 (-1.4) LCK, 6 (-0.75) DEF, 3 (+0.25) RES
Florina (7): 22 (+1.4) + 7 (Robe) HP, 9 (+1.6) STR, 10 (+0) SKL, 11 (-1.3) SPD, 10 (+0) LCK, 5 (+0.1) DEF, 7 (+0.9) RES
Dorcas (7): 33 (-0.2) HP, 9 (-0.4) STR, 9 (+0.4) SKL, 7 (+0.2) SPD, 4 (-0.6) LCK, 5 (+1) DEF, 1 (+0.4) RES
Erk (9): 22 (-0.2) HP, 8 (-0.2) MAG, 10 (+0.8) SKL, 14 (+3!!) SPD, 7 (+1.6) LCK, 5 (+1.4) DEF, 8 (+0.8) RES
Serra (7): 20 (+0) HP, 4 (-1) MAG, 8 (+1.2) SKL, 12 (+1.6) SPD, 10 (+0.4) LCK, 4 (+1.1) DEF, 7 (-1.3) RES
Nils (7): 20 (+0.9 HP), 0 STR, 0 SKL, 16 (-0.2) SPD, 16 (+1.2) LCK, 7 (+0.2) DEF, 10 (+1.8) RES
Lucius (5): 19 (-0.1) HP, 8 (-0.2) MAG, 8 (+1) SKL, 10 (-0.8) SPD, 2 (-0.4) DEF, 7 (-0.2) RES
Matthew (6): 20 (-1) HP, 5 (-0.2) + 2 (Energy Ring) STR, 5 (-0.6) SKL, 14 (+0.2) SPD, 4 (+0) LCK, 4 (+0) DEF, 1 (+0.2) RES
Wil (3): Not gonna bother, not using him.
Rath: Base Stats
Wallace: Base Stats
[/collapse]

Stuff worth noting:

My Erk is super blessed in Speed.
Sain is Skill blessed (and slightly Strength screwed) for the moment.
Lyn and Florina are both slightly under par on speed at the moment.
Serra's doing well in speed.
Basically everybody made it to level 7 at least, so I spread my EXP pretty well.

Playtime: 2:54:00

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you are trying to S rank HHM I think it would be better to not do Lyn Mode at all since any units you use early on like Dorcas, Sain, Lyn, Erk, Nils/Ninian, and Serra are going to be contributing practically no experience to your ranking in HHM. Especially Serra and Nils being great candidates for netting you free experience. But, you already completed it so nevermind.

 

[Raziek]

That comes down to a matter of preference in the long run. I prefer to save the turns instead by having stronger units and just make up for the EXP rank by using things like Rebecca for potshots, etc. Nils/Ninian is still pretty much free exp as I'm not likely to cap their level either way.

My other "almost S" run still had me at 5-stars EXP at Cog of Destiny, so I'm not terribly worried about it. My tactics for that haven't screwed me in my previous attempts.

Hector Hard Mode:

Ch. 11: Took the south route. Got a great level for Matt (Hp, Str, Speed, Luck, Def), and two solid ones for Hector (Hpx2, Str, Skill, Spd, Def, Res). Nabbed the Red Gem, and stole the Thief's Lockpick. One Vulnerary used, 10 turns total. I could possibly do this one faster by taking the top route, but the early EXP & the Red Gem/Lockpick are too important.

Turn Count: 10 (+10 because of 0-turn req on Hector-only Chapters)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, the experience I have had the last two times I tried S ranking EHM at the end was all my rankings were fine until I reached Victory or Death. That chapter alone has a huge requirement for experience. But, I am not entirely certain how that ends up working. The serenesforest explanations for the rankings is sort of confusing.

 

[Raziek]

Ch. 12: Had a 6-turn clear set up, then ****ing Marcus crit the boss on a 3. Can't afford to give that EXP away, so it's reset time. Turn 6 clear, with Matt getting two godly levels (5 stats). Eliwood being bunscheeks as usual.

Turn Count: 16 (+5)

Ch.13: Kinda messy, but got through in 10 turns and picked up some stuff with my MK:DD Silver Card. Got the Mine & the Merlinus chapter. My Eliwood continues to be a useless fruitbag. Matt is godlike.

Turn Count: 26 (+3)

Ch. 13x: Managed to fraud my way through this one somehow. Guy got several good levels. Eliwood is still ass. Matt soloed the bottom right corner himself, Hector, Oswin and Marcus handled the top half. Got the village with the gold. Killed Puzon with Guy. (w/ Serra backup)

Turn Count: 33 (+3)

Current Rating from Oswin: 3 Tactics, 5 Everything Else

 

[XTheElegantShadowX]

O_O! The way you're describing HHM, it sounds like you're playing the Fire Emblem equivalent to Pokemon's, "Nuzlock." XD

 

[Raziek]

O_O! The way you're describing HHM, it sounds like you're playing the Fire Emblem equivalent to Pokemon's, "Nuzlock." XD

How so?

 

[XTheElegantShadowX]

How so?

The various restrictions and rules you mentioned in an earlier Post. While not as extreme as Nuzlock, I still couldn't help but compare the two. XD

Eh, though, it was late when I posted that...

 

[Ussi]

They aren't really restrictions, more like just deciding how to do the run.. cause he's going for a perfect run, but some people do S rank Lyn route + S rank HHM to make it a complete run at times. He's gonna do Lyn mode to just make HHM easier but He basically made it so that he won't cheese HHM by boss abusing in Lyn mode or anything like that.

 

[Raziek]

Realized I was using the wrong chart for turn counts (I was using normal mode). Won't be going back and changing my old posts, but I did alter my running totals in my log, which I'll be posting in full when I actually finish it. On to today's work:

Ch. 14: Erk being jacked out of his mind is actually going to be a problem. He's trying to man up and kill Erik on turn 4. This could take some work. Had a good run going, on part for a 9-turn, then Bartre got crit by a Pegasus knight. The worst of times. This will be easy enough as long as Erk doesn't suicide. Completed with an 8-turn clear. Matt/Guy almost at a C support. Hector & Guy both got some great levels. Eliwood.... (Hp, Res) Bought a bunch of stuff using early Silver Card (3 of each Iron Weapon, 3 Heals, 2 Fire.)

Turn Count: 41 (+4)

Ch. 15: Matt gets both chests and steals the Thief's pick. Guy handles the western fighters, and both of them get points in strength! Erk is still going bananas. Has 16 speed and beast-moded Sealen to get the Dracoshield for me. Oswin, Marcus, Hector and Dorcas handled the bottom section.

Turn Count: 48 (+11)

Ch. 16: Would have liked to do this faster, but I'd have to use Marcus and waste a ton of EXP on a dangerous bum-rush. 11 turns (+4), got both villages. Stocked up on Hand-axes & Javelins, got good levels on several characters.

Turn Count: 59 (+15)

Ch. 17: Really happy with this one. 11 turn clear (-7). Got 3/4 chests, had to sacrifice the Silver Sword. Raven & Lucius obtained, one soldier saved for 17x, lots of great levels.

Turn Count: 70 (+8)

Current Rating on the Oswin-o-meter: 4 in Tactics, 5 everything else.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I really should try HHM again. I have not done that in ages.

Raziek inspiring FE plays.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Hey guys:

A user named Gringe on SF is (mostly) finished with a new translation patch fro FE6. I'd recommend anyone interested in FE6 check it out, it's a HUGE improvement over the FireLizard patch. He's also created a small balance patch that updates some values(like hit rates and crit bonuses) to match FE7.

You can get it here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41095

 

[Gamegenie222]

OH snap i have to pick that up.

 

[Raziek]

I have perhaps the strangest Hector I've ever had.

Level: 13
HP: 29 (-0.8)
Str: 12 (-2.2)
Skill: 9 (-0.4)
Speed: 12 (+2.8)
Luck: 5 (-1.6)
Defense: 16 (+2)
Res: 1 (-2)

Such polarized stat outcomes. He's either way under or way over on almost every stat except HP, Skill and somewhat Luck.

Edit: My Eliwood is going to be a real problem. He's level 5 and his important stats are totally garbage. (Strength, Speed). I need him to at least level 10 to get Linus' version of FFO. Trying to get him some levels on 17x, but he's getting wrecked by the pirates. Might have to give him some stat boosters, but I'm going to bench him ASAP so I really don't want to.

 

[Rutger]

Swordmaster crit reduced?

Worst patch ever!
I also kind of like FE6's low hit rates...

Anyways, don't know if I care enough about the story to stop playing on my GBA, but it would be cool to check that out one day.


Edit: Raziek is making me really glad that I don't care about rank. My FE6 rank is going to be awful, I'm pretty sure I have a terrible turn count already.
There's too many things I need to be concerned over for a ranked run to be enjoyable in FE for me. :/

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Swordmaster crit reduced?

Worst patch ever!

Good thing the numbers patch is separate from the translation patch.

Though reducing the Crit bonus would make the Western Isles less stressful.

 

[Raziek]

Edit: Raziek is making me really glad that I don't care about rank. My FE6 rank is going to be awful, I'm pretty sure I have a terrible turn count already.
There's too many things I need to be concerned over for a ranked run to be enjoyable in FE for me. :/

HHM is probably my favorite kind of Fire Emblem because it gives me measurable goals to work towards. On top of that, they are also REASONABLY attainable without being utterly restrictive in how you can accomplish them. The restrictions placed on the player are why I do not like Lunatic mode.

 

[XTheElegantShadowX]

They aren't really restrictions, more like just deciding how to do the run.. cause he's going for a perfect run, but some people do S rank Lyn route + S rank HHM to make it a complete run at times. He's gonna do Lyn mode to just make HHM easier but He basically made it so that he won't cheese HHM by boss abusing in Lyn mode or anything like that.

Oh, I see. Hmm... Kind of makes me want to try something similar with Path of Radiance.

Hey guys:

A user named Gringe on SF is (mostly) finished with a new translation patch fro FE6. I'd recommend anyone interested in FE6 check it out, it's a HUGE improvement over the FireLizard patch. He's also created a small balance patch that updates some values(like hit rates and crit bonuses) to match FE7.

You can get it here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41095

Must. Have. Now or a bit later from now, depending on whether I care if it's slightly incomplete ! =D

Oh my, I'd finally be able to experience the full story of Fire Emblem 6, though, I know that the very second I turn on the game, I'm going to be screaming in my head, "Where is Lyn and Rath's kid?!". XD

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I'm going to be screaming in my head, "Where is Lyn and Rath's kid?!". XD

Spoiler

 

[majora_787]

Hey guys:

A user named Gringe on SF is (mostly) finished with a new translation patch fro FE6. I'd recommend anyone interested in FE6 check it out, it's a HUGE improvement over the FireLizard patch. He's also created a small balance patch that updates some values(like hit rates and crit bonuses) to match FE7.

You can get it here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41095

I'll have to get to that sooner or later. Regardless of my dislike for FE7, I still want to at least experience this whenever I get done with FE4.

 

[XTheElegantShadowX]

Spoiler

... Alright. Now pull a Lyn out of your hat. :I

Edit: ... She is Lyn's kid... why else would her Critical Hit look so... Swords Master-esque. XD

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Lyn X Tactician, **** rath.

 

[Ussi]

I'm a Lyn x Kent fan

 

[Robert of Normandy]

LynxFlorina OTP

 

[~Firefly~]

Lyn: Please, Florina-- Don't... I, too, thought it was the way we had to be with each other. But I was wrong-- I can't take it anymore. I've been so lonely all this time. Leaving the plains... And you, my best friend treating me like a noble stranger. What does rank and birth have to do with anything? I'm still myself, and you're still you! Please, talk to me normally, like you always used to.
Florina: Lyndis...Lyn... I...I'm sorry. I had no idea you felt that way...
Lyn: I do, and someday when I return to the plains... Come with me, won't you? I may not be able to pay you like I do now... But I would like you with me, Florina, as a friend.
Florina: Yes. That would be nice. Let's stick together, no matter what happens. Now...and always.

It all checks out. Lyn x Florina confirmed legitimate pairing.

 

[Raziek]

Taking a break on 17x for a bit because I'm going to need an Eliwood that isn't garbage.

Started from a backup Ch.11 save to try anew, and see if I can shave some turns and rotate my characters a bit better.

 

[Ussi]

gonna be curious when you hit chapter 28 (the FoW save prince Zephil chapter), mainly cause i struggled with it in HHM unranked that I ended up not playing the run for months before retrying it later and eventually getting it and the game. That run my Priscilla was my best unit lol, she had 20+ stats in everything but defense and A support with Guy. I did have Florina and Kent, Kent wasn't really doing well for me though. Guess I should stop having favoritism for him over Sain.