Fire Emblem: The Discussion Thread (keep FE Fates story under spoilertags)

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Not sure if I agree with how DLC works out for a game. Limit Break seems a bit excessive.

I think I had a Tactician who was dreadful.
lv 20
37 hp, 13 str, 10 mag, 14 skl, 13 spd, 11 def, 8 res 9 lck...

 

[Rutger]

It's not excessive when you see the stats of enemies in The Strongest One's Name DLC.

It's a skill designed for the post game, I imagine you will never really need it for the main game, so I guess it could be considered excessive from that point of view.

Beating Ike's DLC could be kind of hard without some grinding, but Nosferatu tanking may work. I don't know how practical it would be to obtain the skill during the main game, and I will not until it comes out. :/

 

[Raziek]

Don't knock vengeance till you've tried Wrath + Vengeance + Vantage. :3

My Morgan F runs those 3 with a forged Ruin, Tomefaire.... and I forget the 5th.

 

[nessokman]

I am still grounded.I can't play my 3ds and snuck on the comp.I'm still setting up strategies for lunatic now that i've pretty much beated hard-classic twice.My strategy is set! level 2 will be fun >:3I

 

[Rutger]

Don't knock vengeance till you've tried Wrath + Vengeance + Vantage. :3

I wanted to try that before the game came out, then decided it took too many class changes for the main game(and I was prioritizing Astra + Grandmaster skills.) It still looks fun though.

I wouldn't really call Vengeance terrible, if your health is low enough it will add more to one single attack than any other skill in the game. I just think there are better and/or more practical options, especially with the Sorcerer.

 

[Astraea31]

imo vengeance is really really good considering sorcerers can do a lot of damage during the enemy phase, and you don't really have to worry about your hp dropping since you have nosferatsu

 

[Astraea31]

and the **** up with res growths am i right? have to lvl like another a billion times when all your stats are 40+ but res

 

[~Firefly~]

That's why I buy Talismans whenever I get the chance.

Speaking of which, I'm finally getting close to the point where I'll have a streetpass team I'm happy with. I've got 3-4 units finalized, another couple are really close, and the rest either still need ideas on what exactly I want to do with them, or just need to be grinded for 1 more skill. At this rate, it'll probably be done right before Limit Break becomes available...

 

[Rutger]

imo vengeance is really really good considering sorcerers can do a lot of damage during the enemy phase, and you don't really have to worry about your hp dropping since you have nosferatsu

Nosferatu/Aversa's Night kind of defeat the purpose of Vengeance, you want very low health if you are using Vengeance. I would personally rather have Ignis and Astra, the activation rate might not be as good but, but damage would be better more often than not when Nosferatu/Aversa's Night are being used.

Still, if you have the skill space there is no reason not to have it, and you could rely on it if your health gets really low, especially with Vantage.

 

[Delta-cod]

Vengeance's true purpose is constant One Liners.

Is Chrom supposed to be a "meh" unit? I swear he always turns out mediocre for me. >_>

 

[Raziek]

Compared to Children? Maybe.

Otherwise, he's up there with PoR Ike.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Reminds me of a tier of all the "lords" of FE, with Sigurd and Chris at the "Jesus with Wheels" tier.

With Vengeance, even though it's preferred to have less HP it might be smarter to have Nosferatu/Aversa's Night, especially when we get the Ultimate Training DLC. Being at few HP for those seems like asking for a unit to die. It would be like "Oh you hurt me? Congrats! Now let me hit back harder AND recover what damage you did."

 

[Reizilla]

I caved on my lunatic run. I cleared from Ch. 21 on with just Chrom/MU and a forged Aversa's Night. Except, I wanted to stick it to those asshole sorcerors that hide behind the walls, so I went and got the Mire, then went back and killed them all. Only took me 95 turns. Armsthrift ftw.

 

[~Firefly~]

I would say you should have been awarded Vengeance for doing that, but you probably already have it. :x

 

[Reizilla]

That was my first chapter as a sorcerer, so I'm pretty sure I DID get vengeance in the midst of it xD I never would have thought of it that way. Haha

 

[~Firefly~]

Excellent. The perfect initiation~

 

[Delta-cod]

Compared to Children? Maybe.

Otherwise, he's up there with PoR Ike.

Woooooooooooooooow.

The RNG Goddess is being particularly cruel to me, then.

Chrom get it together, geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

 

[Raziek]

For the record:

Chrom wins in HP, Strength, Skill, Speed, Luck, Defense.
Ike wins in Magic and Res.

Ike essentially gets crushed by Chrom. (Disclaimer: Awakening Growths not 100% confirmed)

Biggest difference is the MASSIVE disparity in luck.

Ike 75 50 20 50 55 35 40 40

Chrom 85 60 10 60 60 70 45 25

 

[~Firefly~]

That means nothing TBH. PoR Ike's growths were designed for a game where stats cap at at most 30 after 40 levels, while Chrom's growths were designed for a game where stats cap at at most 50 after 40 levels. Growths in Awakening (at least, as far as we know) are generally much higher than in PoR, so Chrom will naturally have higher growths than Ike.

Chrom is really solid, but it seems to me like there are more units that overshadow him (MU) than there were units that overshadowed PoR Ike.

 

[Reizilla]

Not to mention how easy it is to level up in Awakening. That said, my Chroms have always been among my best units throughout the game without needing any special attention, save for early on in Lunatic.

 

[telemaster]

so is lunatic any fun compared to hard? i finished hard and am doing normal for fun/streetpass team

 

[Raziek]

That means nothing TBH. PoR Ike's growths were designed for a game where stats cap at at most 30 after 40 levels, while Chrom's growths were designed for a game where stats cap at at most 50 after 40 levels. Growths in Awakening (at least, as far as we know) are generally much higher than in PoR, so Chrom will naturally have higher growths than Ike.

Chrom is really solid, but it seems to me like there are more units that overshadow him (MU) than there were units that overshadowed PoR Ike.

While true, it's important to look at things in context.

Ike is one of, if not the best unit in PoR. His only competition for most of the game are the Paladins because LOLCANTO. He's essentially a god among mortals.

Chrom on the other hand, is considered upper average because he's up against the likes of the Avatar (lolbroken), Wyvern Riders with Myrmidon Growths (Lon'Qu, Sully, Panne), etc etc.

Contextually, Ike is a better unit relative to his peers. Because his peers aren't as good. Overall, Chrom is just straight up better though, even if you capped him at a standard 20/20.

So while I agree with your point on growths and the design of the game, it's a matter of your criteria. If it's "Usefulness to beating the game", then Ike wins because he's a god within the confines of his game. Otherwise, Chrom is better in virtually every situation.

 

[~Firefly~]

so is lunatic any fun compared to hard? i finished hard and am doing normal for fun/streetpass team

I find Lunatic mode fun for a challenge, if you're into that sort of thing. The first few chapters can be really frustrating though, so it's really a matter of taste.

While true, it's important to look at things in context.

Ike is one of, if not the best unit in PoR. His only competition for most of the game are the Paladins because LOLCANTO. He's essentially a god among mortals.

Chrom on the other hand, is considered upper average because he's up against the likes of the Avatar (lolbroken), Wyvern Riders with Myrmidon Growths (Lon'Qu, Sully, Panne), etc etc.

Contextually, Ike is a better unit relative to his peers. Because his peers aren't as good. Overall, Chrom is just straight up better though, even if you capped him at a standard 20/20.

So while I agree with your point on growths and the design of the game, it's a matter of your criteria. If it's "Usefulness to beating the game", then Ike wins because he's a god within the confines of his game. Otherwise, Chrom is better in virtually every situation.

Yeah, I agree with all of that; I just think that "better" in the way you're defining it (a strict comparison of their stats) is a superficial way of comparing Chrom and PoR Ike compared to something like "Usefulness to completing the game". I could say that somebody like Gregor is on par with PoR Ike if you take a direct comparison of their stats, but any criteria claiming that Gregor is a better unit than Ike is not something I would want to use.

 

[Reizilla]

The funniest thing in this game has to be turning Nergal into a berserker.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

MU is surprisingly unbroken once you remove the Veteran skill. Growth rates (ignore flaw/asset for simplicity) are good, but others have better growths. Chrom and Sully for example. Its only due to Veteran getting you higher levels faster that MU appears better than the rest. Nowi is ridiculous too. It seems that she still gets ridiculous amounts of experience for simply being in the dragon class and that coupled with huge growths makes her a good unit really fast.

 

[Raziek]

That's a flawed comparison.

Why would we talk about MU without Veteran?

That's like talking about Donnel without Aptitude.

Yeah, they're obviously a worse unit without it, but there's literally no reason not to have it turned on, since we're not playing RD where it's actually worth arguing who makes best use if a skill. (Paragon for example).

Sure, the avatar is indeed statistically worse in the long run, but Veteran provides a huge advantage for a large chunk of the game.

Appears better is simply incorrect, because they don't APPEAR better, they ARE better until other units close the gap by virtue of EXP scaling.

Finally, on Nowi: Her growths aren't exactly huge in areas that matter when you get her. Mage is a terrible reclass for her, so looking at WR, while she's got some of the best defense in the game, her speed growth is among the worst.

She's directly outclassed by several other units who can go WR and has a babying period nearly comparable to Donnel's. She's getting doubled when she joins, and until her ridiculous defense and HP kick in she's one of the worst units on your team offensively/defensively outside of healers, unless you go even further out of your way to pair her with Lon'Qu or something.

Even once she catches up in levels, her class set wrecks her potential. Manakete's skills are useless, so she's locked into WR branches for the most part, meaning she can't get most skills worth talking about. Astra, Sol, Luna, Armsthrift, Vantage, Galeforce, Axefaire, etc are all unavailable to her.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Usually if a unit is super good its due to ridiculous bases or extremely good growths or something like that over the course of a game. For the MU its neither of those typical things, and I found it ironic that its not that usual reason for the sense of OP coming from those reasons.

I was referring to simply staying Manakete over the course of the main game. On hard mode when she joins, she 2HKOs pretty much everything on the map while only taking like ~1/3 of her HP in damage. With Gregor, she has enough def/res to tank a couple enemies on her own for a little while to gain exp until you come by with the cavalier. This is much more than Donnel can say. He literally cannot do anything when he first joins on his own and has to be feed kills for a long time. Nowi just has to make sure she does not eat too much at one time. So, Nowi is completely usable as a unit when she joins.

And you do not need ridiculous favoritism to get the exp. Just send her against a 2-3 enemies on her own with some healing and they will die. Do this over the next couple of chapters and she'll have enough exp/stats to match the rest and get better from there. A speed buddy (lon'qu, gregor, sumia, cordelia, etc.) is required though to double. But on Lunatic, pair-ups are always required and on hard you will probably start doing this so your units do not die from being hit by like 4-5 enemies at once. She ends up being one of the few units that can tank resistance AND defense. Everyone else in the game has a resistance weakness.

 

[Astraea31]

God I hate myself for finding out you can give your children skills AFTER I got morgan. I'm way too lazy to redo the whole game just to get him galeforce, so I guess he'll just be a support unit zZ

Anybody try Kellam!Nowi??? My Nah can probably tank the final boss

 

[KrIsP!]

Aight I'm at chapter 16, I haven't gotten Galeforce on Cordelia yet but she's married and will probably get it after a few more levels. Can her kid still get it if I don't recruit him or her yet? I haven't recruited any of the kids yet.

 

[Reizilla]

Children will get whatever the most recent skill the parents learned is when you begin their chapters.

 

[Raziek]

On hard mode when she joins, she 2HKOs pretty much everything on the map while only taking like ~1/3 of her HP in damage.

This chunk right here is just pretty much false, if slightly by omission. Yes, she's 2KO'ing (sometimes), but she's not doubling, so that's 2 rounds minimum. And when you're taking a 1/3 of your health (which is generous underestimation), that's a problem. Her base HP is 18, that is NOT good.

Like I said, her start isn't Donnel-bad, but it definitely isn't good, and saying she's "ridiculous" is a stretch. She has a period where people aren't reclassing where she's good (if you catch her up), then swiftly falls behind because her class options suck balls. I used her, she was alright, but she's an awful end-game unit and needs to be babied a bit to get started. What does that make her? A unit who has a small period of being good, and she requires effort to get there.

With Gregor, she has enough def/res to tank a couple enemies on her own for a little while to gain exp until you come by with the cavalier.

This much is true.

 

[Reizilla]

Is it just me or are none of the natural fliers particularly good, Gerome aside. There were so many bow and wind magic users in the late game. Even when I had them over leveled they had to sit back so much.

 

[Raziek]

Cordelia is a statistical monster.

If you're not rushing Galeforce, reclass her to Merc then Hero and watch the fun.

Sumia and Cynthia are pretty meh. Cherche is average.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

(not sure why spoiler is not working >_>)

Spoiler

Oh, well. I simply remember Nowi@Gregor being able to 2-shot the Cavaliers, Myrmidons, and Mages on the join map in hard mode (axe people are limited and thrown into the sand). I cannot recall the exact damage output from those enemies, but I recall it being about a 3HKO on her at absolute base. I do not see the training being all that demanding compared to any other unit. Being able to 1-2 range and 2HKO at join time I think is more than can be said for a lot of units in this game when they first come into play. You do not need to feed her ANY kills at all. She will kill them herself. She only needs limited enemy density at first. At lv3, she quickly gains experience and has 50% skl, spd, res and 65% str, def along with 120% hp, and will continue to gain experience at a higher rate than the others since manaketes gain exp like unpromoted units.

As an example, in 7 levels, she has (on avg.) 26.5 hp, 16.55 def (w/dragon stone), 12.5 res(w/dragonstone). Her low HP is completely fixed in a short 7 levels. Very fast too when you think that enemies are at a higher level than she is at lv3, but already approximately 2HKO enemies. The speed problem is very short lived too (if not existent). Immediately with pairing (not really effort), she no longer gets doubled (really the only thing that doubled her were Myrimdons at join time). After you get a few levels, the continued pairings (speed support increases too), she will be able to double enemies routinely.

I do not see the reclass options being that big of a deal. Manakete is the only thing she needs, and so long as you kept the Manakete class the whole time, she'll be a fine end game unit. As enemies continue to get stronger forges and stats, its harder to find units to still be able to ORKO enemies and survive multiple hits. Especially at range since only Magic has affordable MT while Lance/Axe needs forges and only have limited uses. Additionally, you face enemy density that is filled with a variety of weaponary. Nowi has high enough hp, def, res (and no flying/mount weakness) near mid-late to tank all of those hits and ORKO right back at 1 OR 2 range. As example, I have gotten Nowi to lv30 by about chapter 17-18. A LTC on hard has her at about lv25 after chapter 15.

 

[Raziek]

Manakete is a pretty trash class for skills and only has decent caps. Can't forge Dragonstones, so that's a big downside. Painfully low speed cap.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that Axes need forges. To KO a general maybe.

Why would I want to use Nowi in endgame when I have so many better options? Tiki is literally the same unit but better with less effort required, not to say anything of every children bopping her, and getting outclassed by a lot of first gen units who are fortunate enough to have 2 or more good classes. (Stahl, Sully, Gregor, Cordelia, Lon'Qu, Vaike all come to mind immediately)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I suppose we have been seeing different criteria for basing a good unit.

Class caps aren't all that important to completing the game. You can beat Hard Mode without a fully capped class. Nowi's caps as Manakete are just fine for completion of the game. Although, don't forget that her caps do not account for the massive boost to stats she gets from a Dragonstone+
w/Dragonstone+&Caps => 80hp, 52 str, 39skl, 37 spd, 56 def, 51 res. All with 12 MT 1-2 Range physical weapon for 3750g. No lance or axe can get that sort of power at 1 AND 2 range without a serious investment in forging (costs beaucoup bucks and only 25 uses only). Yes, you can get higher MT on a 1 range weapon, but you still waste turns trying to kill enemies that are attacking you with 2 range. So overall, Manakete is a fine class with its unique 1-2 range on physical damage and rather high str, def, res caps.

Class skills are rather a mute point IMO simply because many of the good skills come much, much later in the game. So for like 75% of the game you will not have galeforce, aegis, etc. And some of the semi-decent which come sooner are completely luck dependent like Armsthrift, Astra, Luna, etc. At most, I believe you should only be able to get 2 promoted lv15 skills on a unit by endgame.

Tiki < Nowi. Tiki comes after chapter 16 and 17 and her stats will be less than Nowi. As I already pointed out, you can have a about a lv 30 Nowi by Tiki arrives. Go and do the stat comparison and she will have about an advantage by a few points above Tiki except ~1 point in speed. Nowi also will have supports built up long before Tiki ever arrives limiting her potential for a few more chapters until she builds up supports too. The only plus to Tiki is that she has better growths and is RNGscrewingProof. But, that's still limited compared to the amount of time Nowi gets being good up to that point. There is NO effort with Nowi you keep pointing out. Its limited (to be generous) to chapter 12. Afterwards, Nowi is not having effort put forth to be good. She IS good by this point and only getting better.

Not going to bother arguing children too much. First off, many of them have chapters which are rather difficult to complete until you complete further into the game (unless you trivialize the game by exp farming). What sort of contribution are they making for chapters 18-end that Nowi was making for much longer from ch8-end. Even afterwards, you have units which are completely dependent upon the parents. If one parent is good (lv 20/10?) and the other at base, then the kid is nothing to talk about. Nowi Growths are similar to a child growth relatively. But this time, by the time children come Nowi has contributed since ch12 at being good while they need a few more chapters to be on par as the parents.

 

[Player-3]

Manakete is a pretty trash class for skills and only has decent caps. Can't forge Dragonstones, so that's a big downside. Painfully low speed cap.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that Axes need forges. To KO a general maybe.

Why would I want to use Nowi in endgame when I have so many better options? Tiki is literally the same unit but better with less effort required, not to say anything of every children bopping her, and getting outclassed by a lot of first gen units who are fortunate enough to have 2 or more good classes. (Stahl, Sully, Gregor, Cordelia, Lon'Qu, Vaike all come to mind immediately)

but nowi is adorable

 

[telemaster]

go see nowis support convos with gaius LOL. i also like lucinas convos with her mother rofl. what are other support convos to check out!?!

 

[Delta-cod]

Frederick and Chrom.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

I find most of the children supports amongst themselves pretty funny because they're kids.