Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia: Game finally over! Raziek lynched, Town wins! Lego too!

[Rajam]

Why would you track me? I stopped myself.

but we couldn't confirm so last Day by checking if you were voteblocked or not

Anyways, Gova, Inferno, your actions and motives N4 & N5?

 

[Inferno3044]

N4: Stopped myself. Confirmation by OS was sent late.

N5: I was roleblocked.

I wish Raziek tracked Rajam. I don't get what his power does or what his powers have done throughout the game.

 

[Rajam]

N4: Stopped myself. Confirmation by OS was sent late.

N5: I was roleblocked.

I wish Raziek tracked Rajam. I don't get what his power does or what his powers have done throughout the game.

Inferno, where are you looking now? What do you think of my points on Raziek?

 

[Inferno3044]

Inferno, where are you looking now? What do you think of my points on Raziek?

Kinda banking on townGova. Nothing really seemed scummy from him in general plus he picked protect which makes no sense for indy to pick. So by PoE its either you or raziek. Your point of him saying the info late is kind solid. No reason to not state it with 2 scum down.

Gova who would you lynch between rajam and raziek?

 

[Gova]

I've already said I think Raziek is the remaining scum.

 

[Overswarm]

Not voting: Raziek, Inferno, Gova, Rajam

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline has been set for Wednesday, April 11th, at 3 p.m. EST

 

[Inferno3044]

So Gova, once again my memory sucks. Did you ever state if the modvote you receive for hammering is permanent? If it's not permanent I would like to test the restriction.

 

[Gova]

Yes it's permanent, did you not read the rules?

 

[Inferno3044]

I think I looked over that rule because I don't have a restriction. I remembered that if a priest hammered they would get a mod vote and the hammer wouldn't go through. Anyways at this rate it looks like Raziek will be the lynch. Do you wanna talk it over a little more Gova or do you wanna just do it?

 

[Gova]

Why are you asking me?

 

[Inferno3044]

EBWOP: I read the rule and found out it was permanent.

 

[Raziek]

Back the fun bus the **** up a second, I've been sick and crazy busy. Will address Rajam's post as soon as I grab breakfast.

 

[Inferno3044]

You're in the room and for today I'm banking on you being town. We can wait for Raziek to respond though.

 

[Raziek]

I think Gova is town. No inconsistences, plus I mimic'd him twice N1 and N2 and nothing really happened.

Agreed.

I'll yell a lot to Inferno (or Raziek) post-game if they're town, due specially to their lies during mass claim allegedly due to gambit reasons. I'm a pro LAL policy specially in these kind of cases, nonetheless, if I were to apply LAL now, both Inferno and Raziek should die, and both can't be scum.

As Ryker said, you'd be lynching 3/4th's of the playerlist, so really, LAL is a dumb policy.

As I said, my main suspicion is now on Raziek after Kantrip's flip. Kantrip flipping mafia doesn't clear Raziek at all; although his abilities are most likely true, his motives and (lack of) actions D3 and D4 are what bother me the most. After the mass claim, Raziek basically knew for certain Kantrip was scum because he didn't claim a Night Kill and instead lied with the Lionsguard Servitude ability, so the slight possibility of town vig was out. Nonetheless, Raziek let the pressure on Glyph grow both D3 and D4, same with Inferno; it didn't make any sense to hide information after the mass claim, specially since Raziek went last in that mass claim, and also, two scum were already dead from D2, but those flips lead in wrong directions such as Glyph and Inferno. There was no real motive to hide Raziek's info regarding Kantrip since we already were claiming everything, and corner the last scum would bring a huge advantage to town.

Ok, really? LegoIndy outed himself die on D3, so I had no reason to claim it then.

As for letting pressure grow on Inferno and Glyph, that's a straight lie. I held Inferno as a Town read the ENTIRE GAME because I knew his haste existed. I fought the Glyph lynch all the way to a near no-lynch, butting heads with Ryker. How is that "letting pressure grow" on them? I opposed both lynches at every turn.

Your final sentence makes no sense. First, it evidently WASN'T the last scum, or the game would be over. Second, I had reason to hold that information as long as possible because I didn't think Ryker would be so godforsakenly stubborn on the Glyph lynch. I felt I'd be able to secure it without revealing everything.

Raziek recently claimed his results on Kantrip on the extension on D4... Also, although Kantrip was the one saying this, it isn't less important to consider the inconsistence that Raziek claimed to see a non-targeted ability (insult iirc, confirmed by Ryker or Sangfroid to be a non-targeted ability), but didn't saw the execute on Gheb N1 despite watching him.

Insult has been confirmed to me by the mod as being targeted, which is why I received it in my results. Do remember the presence of the mod-error, as D3's Insult did not take place until later in the day due to an OS goof.

As for the execute, think for a second. What sense would it make if a Townie could see the execute happen? That'd completely **** the person who used it, given the number of players involved in that ability. What makes you think for a second that execute should be targeted?

Finally, I'd also like to mention that Raziek, so far, can track, watch, see the names of the abilities involved (he can even see Night Kills!), and use a one-shot bulletproof (something like a dragoon?)... in a setup that can be played several times, that's absurd imo for a town role

Ok, this is broad setup speculation? Look at Glyph, who could straight up remove abilities from play. My ability is balanced by being unable to be protected, and obviously I'm vulnerable to the execute.

All you have against me is speculation about my role. Yours isn't even provable either, and of course you've miraculously "never received any results" to verify it in any way.

You claimed super-early for no discernible reason, which leads me to believe you were reaching for early points.

I'm hard pressed to see Inferno or Gova scum, so it's gotta be you.

vote: Rajam

 

[Rajam]

Wait, so if I ask OS if Insult is a targeted ability or not, I'll have a response? If this is true, then Gova, Inferno and me need to send a PM to OS and ask this

Also, when did you claim you couldn't be protected? It's the 1st time I see you claim that

 

[Gova]

What possible reason is there to hold your claim on D4? After Lego flipped and with two mafia flips, either way you're getting rid of a factional night kill. You indirectly let the pressure grow on Glyph to a point where Ryker wouldn't consider lynching anyone else because you didn't claim what you knew about Kantrip.

Also, how did you know you hadn't caught the final scum yet when you claimed D4?

 

[Raziek]

Wait, so if I ask OS if Insult is a targeted ability or not, I'll have a response? If this is true, then Gova, Inferno and me need to send a PM to OS and ask this

Also, when did you claim you couldn't be protected? It's the 1st time I see you claim that

I don't know if he'll confirm it to you directly, because he had to update the information I received when I tracked Legolas.

I'll find said quote regarding not being protectable.

 

[Raziek]

"I fudged my claim a bit in hopes of nailing the final scum for certain before my death."

The other thing is Kantrip is correct about one thing. I was BP last night, which is why I'm certain he tried to kill me.

I can't be protected. That's the major drawback and balancer of my ability. If I could be protected, I could create an unwinnable in 4-man by being protected, watching the Doc, and tracking the other player.

To that end, I have a one-use BP. I pick the night I use it on, and regardless of whether or not I get shot, I lose it. I used it last night.

Do the math.

10one-usebulletproofs

 

[Raziek]

What possible reason is there to hold your claim on D4? After Lego flipped and with two mafia flips, either way you're getting rid of a factional night kill. You indirectly let the pressure grow on Glyph to a point where Ryker wouldn't consider lynching anyone else because you didn't claim what you knew about Kantrip.

I claimed the information even before Ryker went and made his huge case on Glyph. He was dead-set on that regardless of what I did.

Also, how did you know you hadn't caught the final scum yet when you claimed D4?

Speaking in hindsight.

 

[Raziek]

If we no-lynch, I can track Rajam tonight to see if he's telling the truth about the Mimic ability.

Also an alternative, as there doesn't appear to be an NK in play at this point.

 

[Gova]

We don't know what the remaining scum's win condition is.

 

[Gova]

You still haven't answered why you waited so long to claim on D4. Also if you really were speaking in hindsight, why did you wait so long to claim on D4?

 

[Raziek]

You still haven't answered why you waited so long to claim on D4. Also if you really were speaking in hindsight, why did you wait so long to claim on D4?

Again, I felt I was able to push it through without doing so. I heavily crumbed the results, I said multiple times that Lionsguard didn't exist, I'd been saying since DAY TWO that Kantrip was scum.

When it became clear it wasn't going to happen, I went into panic mode and scrambled to make it happen at the last minute, lest I die in the process. I didn't get shot, so the scrambling ultimately ended up being unnecessary.

I clearly don't have an answer that's fully going to satisfy you, so I don't know why you keep asking.

 

[Gova]

What was the point of trying to push his lynch without claiming? I don't see the purpose in that.

 

[Inferno3044]

If we no-lynch, I can track Rajam tonight to see if he's telling the truth about the Mimic ability.

Also an alternative, as there doesn't appear to be an NK in play at this point.

Im not against this atm.

 

[Gova]

I'm against it. He should have tracked Rajam last night.

Raziek, why didn't you track Rajam last night?

Also, I don't believe you about the hindsight thing. the only way you could be speaking in hindsight is if the game was over and we had already nailed the final scum. In which case it would make sense because you wanted to nail the final scum but we haven't so it doesn't.

 

[Raziek]

Wanted to solidify my InfernoTown read, and I watched you, so if there was still an NK in play, it'd have been either you or me.

Gova, what exactly is the point of your harassment? It's already clear I don't have an answer that's going to satisfy you wrt my motivation for holding the information, so you're wasting our time here.

 

[Gova]

Because what you say and do aren't matching up. If it's clear that you won't have a satisfactory answer then it just makes it clearer to me that you're scum. I mean you had Inferno as town since what N1/D2!? How much more solidified did you need to make your read instead of tracking the person you apparently think is scum?

Why do you think Rajam is scum?

 

[Raziek]

2894, Gova. Why do you keep making me repeat myself?

 

[Inferno3044]

Raziek you had no reason to track me. I was RB'd and stated it.gova let's work together.

Gova lets work together. Let's lynch raziek and if the game hasn't ended we lynch rajam.

 

[Raziek]

It was never proven you were RB'd, that's why I tracked you to be sure.

 

[Inferno3044]

It was never proven you were RB'd, that's why I tracked you to be sure.

I said I stopped myself and you knew I was a time mage.

 

[Rajam]

ok let's see...

Raziek tracking Inferno last Night is a minor point at best. If he had the three of us (Gova, Inferno, me) as town reads previous to Kantrip's lynch, then whichever player he would track would be one of his town reads, to either detect something scummy or solidify such town read. Tracking Inferno to confirm he wouldn't do anything is ok.

Raziek watching Gova though given that Inferno was tracked... I'm not ok with that. Who would target Gova? If Gova would have died last Night, Raziek would've known who was responsible, either Inferno if he would've appeared within the track results, or me if Inferno didn't target Gova. There was no need to watch Gova to know that...

With Inferno being "secured" due to the track, Gova and me were left. With the watch action left, and knowing that if there's a Night Kill different than him (Raziek) he can know the responsible based on simple discard (unless Inferno would've died, in which case the watch wouldn't have helped anyways unless Raziek would've taken the strange decision of both tracking and watching Inferno), Raziek shouldn't have watched Gova. Since I am a claimed mime, Raziek should've known that I would not mimic Gova since he claimed losing his ability, and also I have believed Gova the whole game so I have no reason to suspect that claim, at least, not when I expressed in the previous days I was suspicious of Inferno and also of the same Raziek. Raziek should've watched himself. ...or even Inferno would've been a better decision.

As I said, Raziek should've watched himself. That would've been the best course of action to confirm town-Rajam, who most likely would have targeted Raziek to mimic his track and watch. In case Rajam wouldn't have done that, Raziek would've known there was something weird, because he either mimic'd no one (¿?), mimic'd Gova (¿?), or mimic'd Inferno (possible, maybe to attempt to confirm Inferno was in fact roleblocked, although very risky if he had the voteblock still around), but those three cases are all a bad decision compared to mimic'ing Raziek. The target of the mimic could've been someone else, but deffinitely the mimic had to be Raziek.

I don't like Raziek watching Gova. He could've cleared me but instead we got nothing due to a doubtful decision.

Raziek: Explain your motivation / logical thought process for taking the joint decision of tracking Inferno + watching Gova (specially the reason of the decision to watch Gova given you tracked Inferno). Also, confirm whether you had us three (Gova, Inferno, me) as town reads previous to Kantrip's lynch and realizing the game wasn't over after that lynch / flip.

---

Also, my claim D2 was because in that moment I still thought the execute was a targeted thing, and since I mimic'd Gova and target myself, and I didn't appear in the execute, I claimed because I thought I trapped Inferno by discard. "Claiming unprovoked" is false.

---

Analysis from Raziek's play D2, D3 and D4 will come next (either tonight or tomorrow because I have things to do now). I'd like both Gova and Inferno meanwhile to check Raziek's play specially D4, thinking why would Raziek not claim asap that Day his Kantrip result developed from a previous result N1, and with RR, Gheb and Lego already dead; aka:


Gova, Inferno: what do you think of Raziek not claiming his Kantrip result asap D4 after Lego's flip?

I can understand Raziek not claiming D2 if he wanted to wait to catch more scum. Although I have doubts, I see a window for why Raziek wouldn't claim after the mass claim D3 and previous to Lego being cornered as Indy that same Day. I cannot however understand why he didn't claim D4 a lot earlier, like asap, and specially with one more scum dead on Lego's role.

---

We will vote also once we have everything covered, including Night actions analysis and eventual scummy things from Gova, Inferno or me anyone else would like to add. We shouldn't be voting / hammering before that.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well that explains why you've been after me. Right now I'm inclined to lynch Raziek. If I were Raziek I would've nailed Kantrip during the mass claim. Getting rid of mafia is always better than getting rid of indies unless the indy has a kill. Even then I'd rather get rid of mafia under most circumstances.

On a side note, I'm happy that my early T-Block suspicion was correct. I feel like my reads have been improved as I've been playing more.

 

[Rajam]

Talking about reasons for claiming, Raziek tell me why did you claim watcher here at the beginning of D2:

I've claimed Auto-Potion and I do actually have it. My other ability is spent and leads me to want to know why Raz went where he did, and I'll leave it at that.

I went to eat supper.

I'm a watcher, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Raziek]

The answer is right there in the quote. Ryker asked me why I visited Gheb.

 

[Rajam]

The answer is right there in the quote. Ryker asked me why I visited Gheb.

Yeah, but my point is that that post from Ryker strongly implies he was hinting at being a tracker. Tracker is not a role to choose from the OP. Didn't it call your attention that Ryker hinted at tracking you when you yourself are a tracker? You didn't even question it, you just assumed it was true and... claimed

I have a second thing to address regarding the same situation, but first I want to hear what you have to say regarding the first paragraph.

Also, the question of your motives for watching Gova last Night is still up

 

[Raziek]

So, what's your point? By some means he knew I had visited Gheb, so I didn't have any reason to deny it. I had the results and we were able to verify those visits early on.

Watching Gova and Tracking Inferno covered the bases I needed to. I didn't need to track Gova, as I'd already seen his protect clearly enough. I wanted to solidify the Inferno read, so I tracked him. In the event that he was lying about Stop, that would catch something.

In the event a kill took place last night, it was either going to target me, or Gova, since Gova is probably the most clear out of all of us. If it targeted me I'm dead, so watching Gova was the obvious choice.

 

[Rajam]

So, what's your point? By some means he knew I had visited Gheb, so I didn't have any reason to deny it. I had the results and we were able to verify those visits early on.

Watching Gova and Tracking Inferno covered the bases I needed to. I didn't need to track Gova, as I'd already seen his protect clearly enough. I wanted to solidify the Inferno read, so I tracked him. In the event that he was lying about Stop, that would catch something.

In the event a kill took place last night, it was either going to target me, or Gova, since Gova is probably the most clear out of all of us. If it targeted me I'm dead, so watching Gova was the obvious choice.

"by some means" is very vague. If Ryker knew somehow you visited Gheb, why wouldn't he also know you visited Kantrip that same Night as well?

My point is that Ryker heavily hinted some sort of tracker role in there (either tracker, watcher, or a role which allows to know about visits). Certainly not watcher or Ryker would've been on Gova and Inferno too. So it was tracker mostly. Nonetheless Ryker was also very vague and you could've inquired him a lot more, specially considering your ability does the same thing (gaining knowledge about visits). For example, you could've asked him what he meant by that claim, who he meant was visited, or if he was in fact a tracker (knowing you yourself are a tracker), but instead there is not even an attempt to see if you could've catched Ryker in a lie.

A second important thing in all this that also called my attention while rereading, is that you claimed only watcher. What's the problem with that?: Given that you believed Ryker's claim without presenting much problems with that (despite Ryker hinting an ability similar to yours...), why would you "lie" to a most-likely tracker, and not saying anything regarding that you also targeted other player(s) that Night? Claiming only watcher implies that you only select one target per Night, since that's how watchers work 99,9% of the time, but you targeted and visited two players that Night. Ryker didn't react at the only-watcher (and hence only one-target) claim, and apparently you were ok with that. This is suspicious.

---

About your actions last Night, I don't like your explanation. Basically you are claiming being dumb by not considering that if Gova would've died you could've known the responsible by simple discard (either Inferno by the track, or me if Inferno didn't visit Gova), and I don't buy it. Also, if you were night-killed, then watching yourself or Gova doesn't matter, so that isn't a relevant factor for deciding on not watching yourself.

 

[Inferno3044]

Raziek, who is your choice to lynch?