Social Falcon CHAT! The Captain Falcon Social Thread

[ShonenSamurai]

Anybody wants to play some matches, now?

 

[Chalice]

Don't know if anyone here has seen this before, but it made my day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiuvqOShhjE

 

[Samlage]

Would it be inappropriate to ask for feedback with link to replay in this thread?

 

[HFlash]

Would it be inappropriate to ask for feedback with link to replay in this thread?

http://smashboards.com/threads/show...nd-player-thread.368970/page-10#post-20008491 Is what you are looking for.

 

[Simikins]

Anyone play 3ds? I'm looking for a falcon to learn from, and I only have 3ds smash.

 

[XbusterKosmos]

i play an okay falcon, but i just use him troll my friends annoying little mac.

 

[Shadowforsmash1]

Capitan falcons side B needs a buff. It needs more range off stage and needs to become quicker.

 

[Chalice]

I want his Bair to go back to 14%. Why they randomly nerfed that is beyond me

 

[Sirocco]

On the subject of buffs, I believe Captain Falcon is a very strong character in this game and does not need any drastic changes in order for him to succeed. However, there are a few aspects about the character that are completely unnecessary and are more frustrating than anything. The main issue is the lack of vertical range on most of his attacks. In particular, his grab and his up air. Both of these crucial moves suffer from a very unfortunate problem against all of the smaller characters and even a few of the middle-sized ones in that they will just completely miss against any of the many animations that lowers a character's model. Just for comparison, I loaded up Brawl to perform some tests that I was doing on Smash 4 against crouching opponents.

I went to preface this by saying I understand the difference in the mechanics between both Brawl and Smash 4 in regards to air speed, falling speed and all of that. But in spite of that, I feel that some things should be consistent across the games or modified to accommodate for the change in attributes. Also these tests were done on both sides of the crouching characters, and takes into account periods where their model might momentarily rise or lower during their crouch animation.

Against a crouching Sheik, in Brawl both Falcon's grab and dash grab are able to consistently grab Sheik. His lowest up air is also capable of connecting against her, although it is a bit hard to land. In Smash 4, Falcon's grab and dash grab are very strict about the spacing needed to grab Sheik and are likely to whiff against her. I could not connect the lowest up air on her. Jab seems to have the same properties in both games.

Against a crouching Pikachu, both games allow you to consistently grab Pikachu. In Brawl, a low up air is possible to connect with while in Smash 4 it could not connect. Brawl Falcon's jab seems to be much more consistent to connect with against Pikachu and is more lenient with the spacing, allowing you to jab Pikachu from nearly a character length away. For Smash 4 the jab will miss unless you are much closer.

I also went and messed around with G&W and Jigglypuff, who I think have the lowest crouches in the game. In both games, both of these characters avoid the lowest up air and jabs. It's worth noting that Brawl Falcon can connect a strong knee on G&W, whereas I'm having no success trying that in Smash 4. The big difference is that in Brawl, Falcon's dash grab is fully capable of grabbing a crouching G&W and Jigglypuff, whereas in Smash 4 the characters are pretty much immune to all of his grabs in the crouching state.

That about sums up what I've experimented with. These tests aren't really 100% thorough, but I tried. Keep in mind these were only done against crouching characters. This does not take into account the various animations that can lower a character's hurtbox, such as the jump squat animation, landing, many attacks (Pikachu after performing Thunder as an example, he lowers himself and avoids any grabs), dashing, etc. Falcon's attacks whiffing against them is a very real thing, and can happen very easily. Often times I find myself and other Falcons attempting to punish certain actions, only to have their punish miss and be put into a very disadvantageous position.

I want to point out that Wii Fit Trainer was given a buff that extended the vertical reach of her grab range. Both WFT and Captain Falcon are of a comparable size in height, and both have grabs that share a similar property in that they come out low, and then raise a bit. WFT is actually capable of grabbing a crouching G&W and Jigglypuff. Not consistently mind you, but it is absolutely possible and illustrates that a buff like this for Captain Falcon is not unreasonable.

A lower reaching grab and a lower up air hitbox would really solve a lot of problems. If the up air could start just a little bit lower, almost to the point of matching the visual interpretation of the attack with the whole white line graphic, that would be really great. As it stands, the attack doesn't really start until Captain Falcon is almost completely horizontal, which really does not match what the attack animation conveys. I feel that up air is an extremely important tool and a buff like that would be extremely great.

The only other major problem Captain Falcon has is being able to secure KOs after 100%. Between around like 60%-100% he is able to get very swift KOs with any of his setup options, but after 100% they mostly stop working and the situation gets pretty unpleasant. Raptor Boost and his smash attacks are extremely unsafe and are generally unreliable as a result. So I think a simple solution would be to simply buff his back throw. In 64, back throw was able to safely secure KOs around the early 100s, so restoring that power or at least something close to it would do wonders. The back throw we have is fairly strong, but it doesn't really work early enough in my opinion. It starts working around the later 100s, almost close to 200%.

In a nutshell, make his grab and up air range go lower to the ground, and increase the power of his back throw. I don't think this is unreasonable, and it improves Captain Falcon's issues with smaller characters and KO ability. I still think Captain Falcon is one of the most balanced characters in the game and you only have to change him a little bit just to correct some needless flaws. Nothing about him really needs to be changed mechanically. (Although I don't think anybody would complain about having an auto-cancelled down air again, Falcon Kick having its Melee properties or a 3-frame knee)

 

[teluoborg]

I don't think you need to buff his Uair but it's true that being able to shieldgrab people when they are unsafe on your shield would be cool.

 

[Champ Gold]

There's not a lot to ask for buff for Falcon. Maybe for some throw set ups, less lag on fair and other things.

I do want a buff on Falcon Kick. I feel like if downward Falcon Kick can get something like Ganondorf did

 

[teluoborg]

What air Falcon Kick needs is a hitbox to cover his foot. It's stupid that Sheik and ZSS have hitbox to make their dive kick disjointed but not Falcon or Ganon.

 

[Chalice]

What air Falcon Kick needs is a hitbox to cover his foot. It's stupid that Sheik and ZSS have hitbox to make their dive kick disjointed but not Falcon or Ganon.

Ganon has it. Only Falcon doesn't

 

[Lionman]

 

[AirshBornely]

Not that it is to be expected, but it still will be a complete utter bs if Nintendo doesn't acknowledge F-Zero's 25th Anniversary this November. (A new game would've been nice) At least Fire Emblem got acknowledgement and a concert.

Anyway, I'm gonna celebrate it this November regardless. Don't know if I shoukd make a thread or whatever doing a play-by-play of me going through each individual game or not. Maybe do some Falcon only matches in smash too.

 

[teluoborg]

Dear fans,
In order to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the F-Zero license this November, we're giving selling you a new Mute City track DLC for Mario Kart 8 for only $7.99.
You're welcome.

Sincerely yours,
Nintendo

---

In 1 month it will be the last F-Zero game published will turn 11. As much as I'd like to (Nintendo ressurected Starfox so you may never know) I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Champ Gold]

I rather just take a remake of X and GX at this point.


I ain't petty so just do that for those games

 

[Space Stranger]

I'm also in the "remake is better than nothing" boat at this point. Nintendo seems to have forgotten about the series's existence at this point. A launch title for the NX could really reintroduce Cap and the other racers to a new generation of F-Zero fans.

 

[teluoborg]

It's not "a remake is better than nothing". It's "nintendo only has to make F Zero GX HD with online multiplayer". It would be the perfect game.

 

[xXDR.SWOOCEXx]

Which of CF's aerials auto-cancel? I would like to know which I can approach with.

 

[AirshBornely]

It's not "a remake is better than nothing". It's "nintendo only has to make F Zero GX HD with online multiplayer". It would be the perfect game.

I would love this so much.... Then from there, bring it back. Just like Star Fox, sorta.

 

[Aidalator64]

guyz check out saiya's falcon on stream friendlies at umebura, he's wrecking vinnie (at least in friendlies)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Falcon Punch does less knockback than uncharged up angled fsmash until like 70%.

It always does less knockback in the air.

If you charge the fsmash for half a second it probably does more knockback at every percent.

Two truly balanced moves.

~*~Praise Sakurai~*~

 

[HFlash]

On the subject of buffs, I believe Captain Falcon is a very strong character in this game and does not need any drastic changes in order for him to succeed. However, there are a few aspects about the character that are completely unnecessary and are more frustrating than anything. The main issue is the lack of vertical range on most of his attacks. In particular, his grab and his up air. Both of these crucial moves suffer from a very unfortunate problem against all of the smaller characters and even a few of the middle-sized ones in that they will just completely miss against any of the many animations that lowers a character's model. Just for comparison, I loaded up Brawl to perform some tests that I was doing on Smash 4 against crouching opponents.

I went to preface this by saying I understand the difference in the mechanics between both Brawl and Smash 4 in regards to air speed, falling speed and all of that. But in spite of that, I feel that some things should be consistent across the games or modified to accommodate for the change in attributes. Also these tests were done on both sides of the crouching characters, and takes into account periods where their model might momentarily rise or lower during their crouch animation.

Against a crouching Sheik, in Brawl both Falcon's grab and dash grab are able to consistently grab Sheik. His lowest up air is also capable of connecting against her, although it is a bit hard to land. In Smash 4, Falcon's grab and dash grab are very strict about the spacing needed to grab Sheik and are likely to whiff against her. I could not connect the lowest up air on her. Jab seems to have the same properties in both games.

Against a crouching Pikachu, both games allow you to consistently grab Pikachu. In Brawl, a low up air is possible to connect with while in Smash 4 it could not connect. Brawl Falcon's jab seems to be much more consistent to connect with against Pikachu and is more lenient with the spacing, allowing you to jab Pikachu from nearly a character length away. For Smash 4 the jab will miss unless you are much closer.

I also went and messed around with G&W and Jigglypuff, who I think have the lowest crouches in the game. In both games, both of these characters avoid the lowest up air and jabs. It's worth noting that Brawl Falcon can connect a strong knee on G&W, whereas I'm having no success trying that in Smash 4. The big difference is that in Brawl, Falcon's dash grab is fully capable of grabbing a crouching G&W and Jigglypuff, whereas in Smash 4 the characters are pretty much immune to all of his grabs in the crouching state.

That about sums up what I've experimented with. These tests aren't really 100% thorough, but I tried. Keep in mind these were only done against crouching characters. This does not take into account the various animations that can lower a character's hurtbox, such as the jump squat animation, landing, many attacks (Pikachu after performing Thunder as an example, he lowers himself and avoids any grabs), dashing, etc. Falcon's attacks whiffing against them is a very real thing, and can happen very easily. Often times I find myself and other Falcons attempting to punish certain actions, only to have their punish miss and be put into a very disadvantageous position.

I want to point out that Wii Fit Trainer was given a buff that extended the vertical reach of her grab range. Both WFT and Captain Falcon are of a comparable size in height, and both have grabs that share a similar property in that they come out low, and then raise a bit. WFT is actually capable of grabbing a crouching G&W and Jigglypuff. Not consistently mind you, but it is absolutely possible and illustrates that a buff like this for Captain Falcon is not unreasonable.

A lower reaching grab and a lower up air hitbox would really solve a lot of problems. If the up air could start just a little bit lower, almost to the point of matching the visual interpretation of the attack with the whole white line graphic, that would be really great. As it stands, the attack doesn't really start until Captain Falcon is almost completely horizontal, which really does not match what the attack animation conveys. I feel that up air is an extremely important tool and a buff like that would be extremely great.

The only other major problem Captain Falcon has is being able to secure KOs after 100%. Between around like 60%-100% he is able to get very swift KOs with any of his setup options, but after 100% they mostly stop working and the situation gets pretty unpleasant. Raptor Boost and his smash attacks are extremely unsafe and are generally unreliable as a result. So I think a simple solution would be to simply buff his back throw. In 64, back throw was able to safely secure KOs around the early 100s, so restoring that power or at least something close to it would do wonders. The back throw we have is fairly strong, but it doesn't really work early enough in my opinion. It starts working around the later 100s, almost close to 200%.

In a nutshell, make his grab and up air range go lower to the ground, and increase the power of his back throw. I don't think this is unreasonable, and it improves Captain Falcon's issues with smaller characters and KO ability. I still think Captain Falcon is one of the most balanced characters in the game and you only have to change him a little bit just to correct some needless flaws. Nothing about him really needs to be changed mechanically. (Although I don't think anybody would complain about having an auto-cancelled down air again, Falcon Kick having its Melee properties or a 3-frame knee)

If you want more feedback on this, I would actually recommend posting this on the competitive viability thread. It's very active, and usually gives alot of feedback on anything about character viability. I completely agree that Falcon should be able to grab these characters better. It's sort of what makes Falcon well.... Falcon. With out being able to grab his opponent properly, you losses the whole point of playing him (bait and punish). Increasing the reach on uair would be a little too much. Yea it would help his MU on shorter characters, but it would exacerbate and affect literally all of his other MU's so I'd leave that move alone. Additionally, having an improved bthrow would probably be too strong. A character as fast as Falcon shouldn't be able to kill people reliably with a throw. It's actually pretty strong as it is (don't be surprised if it actually gets nerfed come next patch. Also, post 100%, bair kills very readily. It just takes one grab, fthrow/bthrow, and one air dodge read to catch someone off stag with bair and kill as early as 80% off stage. A raw Bair will kill most of the cast post 100 percents especially if you are on the right side of the stage. If anything, his specials (aside from sideB) can be buffed. They all kind of serve no real purpose aside from the occasional mixup (where the reward to risk ratio is heavily skewed against you). If Falcon were to get a buff, give Falcon punch some invincibility frames, or up b more KB (would make for some awesome 64-esque uair up b combos), less lag/better disjoint on down B, and so on. Aside from grab range (to reach shorties), Falcon's normals are pretty good where they are (except knee, and slight sweet spot buff would be awesome, but not necessary).

Edit: Here's the thread I'm talking about: http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/page-232

 

[teluoborg]

KuroganeHammer Like my friend says : Falcon's elbow is the best sword.

 

[AirshBornely]

So apparently the same voice actor that spoke during the menus and races in GX is going to be in FAST Racing Neo.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._for_the_hardcore_science-fiction_racing_fans
I'm happy this guy acknowledges us thirsty F-Zero fans! Not a fan of the whole must get in first to progress thing, but it makes sense and anything that's more F-Zero is very welcome!

 

[Gawain]

So apparently the same voice actor that spoke during the menus and races in GX is going to be in FAST Racing Neo.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._for_the_hardcore_science-fiction_racing_fans
I'm happy this guy acknowledges us thirsty F-Zero fans! Not a fan of the whole must get in first to progress thing, but it makes sense and anything that's more F-Zero is very welcome!

That game looks awesome. I'm honestly surprised they didn't show it during their main show, it's a great looking game. Maybe NIntendo feels racing games aren't in right now. Maybe they aren't lol, I dont know.

Also the dream is dead, Fatality barely didn't get into top 8.

 

[IcantWin]

I want to point out that Wii Fit Trainer was given a buff that extended the vertical reach of her grab range. Both WFT and Captain Falcon are of a comparable size in height, and both have grabs that share a similar property in that they come out low, and then raise a bit. WFT is actually capable of grabbing a crouching G&W and Jigglypuff. Not consistently mind you, but it is absolutely possible and illustrates that a buff like this for Captain Falcon is not unreasonable.

I've been gunning for something like this ever since WFT got the buff, would help us out a lot. Playing Mario or MK has always been a secondary to my bad MU's primarily because of height grab issues.

 

[Sirocco]

Yeah, I've played a lot more since my previous post in this thread and above everything else in Falcon's moveset we desperately need, it's his grabs being able to catch smaller opponents. Pikachu is already bad enough as it is, and we don't need to have the odds this stacked against us. Not to mention all the other characters, small or not, that are able to lower their hurtboxes through landing or alternative means.

You really have to wonder why a balance choice like this even exists when Falcon does not really gain so much out of landing a grab, at least in comparison to what other characters can do to him. He also needs it to be a dash grab specifically to truly get the most out of the move, making it further situational. You'll typically get a grab and an nair/uair or two off of it, whereas most other characters will grab you and start their tilt wobbles and long aerial chains. Now I would be completely fine with this normally. Being that he is a fast faller, he has always been liable to getting pretty messed up. The great thing about the character is that Falcon can take a beating and still be able to come back. The problem though, is that we can't really offer the same level of threat to balance out our weaknesses.

Down throw to knee is percent specific, DI dependent and only really works off of the dash grab. The percentages also seem to be around early mid percent, meaning killing off of it is also going to add dependence on the character and stage position to the equation. Going from a throw into up air to knee generally follows the same stipulations, and I'm not even sure if that is actually a true combo on most characters even under optimal scenarios. Landing the raw falling up air is very difficult to do on good opponents, and unfortunately this is by far the most reliable method for landing the knee and securing KOs. And of course, down air to knee is extremely precise and inconsistent due to other factors such as teching.

I don't think air dodge reading is a good measure of our supposed kill power. It becomes unreliable against good players. Going for up air strings may also push them into the higher percentages where we just aren't going to land the knee anymore, unless they mess up. All too often when I watch sets from great players like Fatality, ZeRo, Trifroze and others I see stocks lasting to well over 150% simply because our options for setting up the knee are so limited. I just don't think it's right that characters like Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Mario and a bunch of others can inflict a huge amount of damage on us and even straight out kill us while we can't really answer back. And even if they can't kill us, they can always get us off stage and put us in a very bad position. Our damage output versus theirs is definitely minuscule in comparison, especially when they can up tilt 10 times with additional followups whereas against Falcon all you need is good DI and you can get out very quickly.

I'm not sure how I would fix any of these problems. All I wish was just for nair, up air and down throw being able to reliably combo into the knee even at somewhat high percents. It doesn't have to be very high, but higher than what we have now. Having to play the high percent game with Falcon flat out sucks. Our reliance on dash grabs specifically is another thing. Maybe down throw has too much knockback or something. Not sure what else could be done.

 

[Silvalfo]

Falcon, the way he is right now, will never win a major. He has a pretty strong "good at dishing it out, bad at taking it" archetype, which becomes really troublesome once we reach higher levels of play due to specific terrible MUs.

His recovery isn't that limited in terms of distance (unless we're out of double jump), but it's the third most gimpable in the game, only better than Little Mac and Ganondorf, imo. This coupled with his vulnerability to combos and how easily can people drag us offstage by simply comboing the hell out of Falcon easily curbstomps our chances at succeeding. Add our punishable moveset to the list and we get a character who's losing the neutral frequently, getting in very bad positions for it and finally getting rekt upon being thrown into a bad position.

How frustrating is it to get guaranteed 0~50%'d (if not 0-death'd) by Pikachu, Mario, Sheik, ZSS or even Toon Link?

[/salt]

 

[Sirocco]

The fact that this character has received mostly nerfs from the patches is mind boggling. Although I can see the up air reduced knockback as more of a buff, there is no justification for the other nerfs. Captain Falcon has always been a perfectly flawed character, worsening him in any way is just straight up unfair. I'm thinking at this point it's worth trying to just focus on buffing characters with future patches. I don't really agree with the philosophy they've approached the balances with. The way I see it, when all you do is nerf the good characters, the good characters stay good and the bad characters stay bad.

Anyway, I've been messing around with Brawl and Melee just to get an idea of what Falcon could benefit from having in this game, so long as it could be feasibly implemented. I think Melee's down throw properties would be beneficial, as it has much less knockback which allows for easier followups even at really high percents. (Dthrow Jigglypuff at 120% in Melee and you can still followup with a fullhop aerial. Dthrow Jigglypuff at 0% in Smash 4 and you're already fullhoping and only barely converting off of it.)

Falcon's auto cancelling in Brawl made think about reduced landing lag on his aerials. I think the reward for landing the knee or a stomp does not even remotely compare to the punishment received for missing them. Reducing them by just a few frames would make it much less painful, and doing so for stomp could make it just slightly easier to followup on after landing it.

I don't think this is really asking for too much. I merely just want to level the playing field. This is a game where Mario can down throw you and up tilt you multiple times and continue to followup with up aerials and what have you. A game where tiny characters dodge the majority of your moveset for no good reason and are able to dish out 60% off a single grab. Personally, I can live with this and I wouldn't ask for new options, I just want what Falcon already has to be refined and made consistent.

 

[IcantWin]

The fact that this character has received mostly nerfs from the patches is mind boggling. Although I can see the up air reduced knockback as more of a buff, there is no justification for the other nerfs. Captain Falcon has always been a perfectly flawed character, worsening him in any way is just straight up unfair.

RIP bair

 

[teluoborg]

Bair is too good, the more I play Falcon the better this move becomes, it's not really surprising that it gets nerfed (same for Uair), what's surprising is that effectively Falcon doesn't recieve any quality of life buff in compensation.

 

[Silvalfo]

>I say falcon will never win anything relevant
>nairo just 3-0's freaking ESAM with doc

that shuts me up

 

[IcantWin]

>I say falcon will never win anything relevant
>nairo just 3-0's freaking ESAM with doc

that shuts me up

Doc is misrepresented as low tier because of his awful recovery. Compare his frame data to Mario's and it's identical to the tee with the exception of 3 or 4 moves lasting 1 frame longer. Doc also boasts better killing power on most of his moves to make up for his poor mobility. I see Falcon in the same regard as having an easily gimpable recovery and being a punching bag for all top tiers. Watching Fatality vs. Mr. R only made me want to drop Falcon to co-main status even more than I already did. I'll be sticking with him until I see what happens with the next patch but I believe you were correct in your statement that Falcon as a single main character will never win a National, he just loses too hard to S and A tier characters, albeit his potential to go toe to toe with them.

 

[Boss N]

Out of curiosity, how many Falcon mains here ACTUALLY played F-Zero? (any of them)
& Likewise, who here has NEVER played the games despite maining Falcon?

 

[teluoborg]

I played a small bit of the original F zero, a bit of X and a lot of GX. I could never finish the story mode in the very hard difficulty though, and could only finish the ruby cup in master difficulty. This game was HARD.

IcantWin Do not lose hope and Falcon's Back Air will save you. Believe and his holy Rolex will give you many safe openings and kills.

 

[_Magus_]

Falcon, the way he is right now, will never win a major. He has a pretty strong "good at dishing it out, bad at taking it" archetype, which becomes really troublesome once we reach higher levels of play due to specific terrible MUs.

His recovery isn't that limited in terms of distance (unless we're out of double jump), but it's the third most gimpable in the game, only better than Little Mac and Ganondorf, imo. This coupled with his vulnerability to combos and how easily can people drag us offstage by simply comboing the hell out of Falcon easily curbstomps our chances at succeeding. Add our punishable moveset to the list and we get a character who's losing the neutral frequently, getting in very bad positions for it and finally getting rekt upon being thrown into a bad position.

How frustrating is it to get guaranteed 0~50%'d (if not 0-death'd) by Pikachu, Mario, Sheik, ZSS or even Toon Link?

[/salt]

Ganondorf's has more distance and an attack hitbox. Plus the grab hitbox on his up B is bigger.

Honestly, I don't have as much trouble getting back to the stage with Dorf as with Falcon. It seems that Ganondorf has an insanely large ledge snap range, as I've barely made it back with Ganondorf and died with Falcon after being launched the same distance. Plus, Falcon's up b is a lot more finicky than Ganondorf's when it comes to grabbing the ledge backwards. I can grab the ledge after using up b with Ganondorf 99% of the time, but I only seem to grab edge with falcon's backward up b in a certain window, and if I miss that window I'm screwed. If I get launched high, I can wizard foot back down and then either side b or up b to the ledge. Falcon doesn't really have that option, as aerial Falcon Kick from almost any height is an SD.

 

[Space Stranger]

Out of curiosity, how many Falcon mains here ACTUALLY played F-Zero? (any of them)
& Likewise, who here has NEVER played the games despite maining Falcon?

Played F-Zero SNES, Maximum Velocity, and X.

The Cap got me into the series and I loved it ever since.

 

[_Magus_]

It seems I've gotten off on the wrong foot on these boards. I main both Dorf and Falcon, and love both characters for different reasons. I think both have their differing play styles and move sets, and with that comes different strengths and weaknesses. I just can't stand for people to assume that knowledge of brawl Ganondorf carries over into this game. As I always say, new game, new Ganon.

Anyway, I looooove C. Falcon, and I popped over here to hang out with people who also love the character. What's up guys?