Falco Matchup #20: Kirby

Zwei Striker

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#2
I've been lurking around for like a year, but never felt like I could contribute, but I feel like I could help a little on this one :)

- Beware of his grab at low%, he can easily add 50%+ on you if he gets it (if you know the timing you can actually SDI the first u-air quite easily and then jump)
- His bair is kinda broken: safe, can kill easily over 110% and is easy to spam, don't underestimate it. I usually deal with kirbys that spam it with a short hop + reflector.
- We get 4 walking grabs on him + dair if I recall correctly.
- He can trip us with his d-tilt like 50% of the time, which will lead to death from a Side Smash at like 100%.
-He is good at chasing offstage with his dair, which, iirc, can take us out of the phantasm.
- Don't approach to him if he's close to the ledge and you are a stock down, cause he will kirbycide.
-Lasers can work wonders, as always
- Be patient on getting the kill, he can camp hard with those bairs and d-tilts (they put him under laser height)

If I remember something else I'll write it down :)
 
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#3
^Run off lasers can hit crouching kirbys. That is if you feel the need to camp instead of trying to bait them into moving.

A person can get out of the kirbycide well before ever getting offstage. Bair on falco's shield is very safe. A spaced Bair and shield push prevents you from getting a grab. And a falling Bair prevents Falco from hitting Kirby due to the low hurtbox along the ground. Falco can only punish Kirby from out of shield with aerials if right on top of kirby otherwise he is too short to hit.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#4
Don't get off the stage when he has lasers, it's a pain. I don't have too much experience with the beach ball, but I treat him like a mini-Wario with a longer FSmash. Actual write-up when I get time. Unsure of my opinion on the numbers in this MU.
 

clowsui

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#5
this matchup is DUMB

it's a little in falco's advantage but you REALLY have to abuse falco traits here. jab, spotdodge, dair shield pressure, phantasm.

play super safe, kirby is so good at messing you up -___-

y.b.m. has ***** me countless times at this MU. he's a better player but that doesn't change certain attributes of the MU - i.e. kirby can mess you up when you're landing + from a grab
 

BleachigoZX

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#6
Not sure how I feel about this MU.

I never played a notable Kirby. I mean I played against Cheese's Kirby once, but I didn't feel like he knew what he was doing.

I'm looking forward to what people post and take it as a bible if I ever play the match up.

:phone:

One thing I'd like to know is how do you properly chain grab Kirby? Is it the same as Marth or is it strictly walking/dashing?
 

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#10
I actually play this one nearly every day. I have been teaching my brother everything I've learned since I started playing competitive Smash, and my bro mains Kirby.

Things to know:

Falco can:
-Grab Kirby up to 4 times in the CG

Kirby can:
-Duck under Laser and crouch and uncrouch to approach
-Duck under reflector

As Falco, the laser is less useful in this MU. It's still important, but short hop silent lasers are your best bet here or the laser becomes a lot more useful after Kirby is in the air. Then you can mash B all you want. Falco has up to 4 grabs on Kirby, but if timed incorrectly he can fly up and get out after two. Jab and Ftilt are very helpful in damage and spacing respectively. Whenever Kirby tries to approach, back up and do Ftilt. It's great for getting in his head and messing up all kinds of stuff. Also if you sweetspot a Dair, it's easy to combo into a down smash if you are quick enough, and a solid damage builder. I'll throw in a video of myself doing that at the end of the post. Bair is by far the most useful against Kirby when you are in the air. Uair is a bad option because his Dair is better, and Dair is good but situational.

Kirby is good in the air of course, and has the advantage over Falco here. I personally do ok against Kirby in aerial combat but Falco is at the disadvantage here. Kirby has a good Bair and Uair. If the last hit of his fair connects it's good as well and of course there is his dair. He also has his hammer so if you mess up in the air, that is a good punisher. Also, if Kirby has you approaching on stage, he has several good punishing options. The Kirby players I have played seem to like Fsmash, but Ftilt isn't bad either for spacing.

If you guys have specific questions about Kirby, I can probably answer them as well because I play Kirby in doubles and sometimes in friendly singles for fun.

And lastly, here's the Dair to Dsmash that I like to use so much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNjOONDwWqo
 

1PokeMastr

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#11
I would put this as 55:45 or 60:40. Kirby's favour.

Might as well.. I don't think anyone knows what they're talking about here.

Getting the CG's out of the way..
We can CG him 4 times. 0-28%, maybe one more, after that, we can Dair follow up, or whatever you want, Stutter Stepping F-Smash works too. Kirby can NOT jump out until 28%, but if we follow up with Dair, etc, easy +41%. Implying you land a grab.

For what Kirby has on us.. F-Throw -> Uair. If you SDi the Uair properly, you can get out, 18%.
D-Throw -> U-Tilt only works on us if they buffer the U-Tilt, if not, we footstool him. If it is, They can land an Easy 57% on us. D-Throw -> U-Tilt -> D-Throw -> U-Tilt -> Jab/ Uair/ Nair/ Bair. If they go for Nair, they can F-Smash.

Now, for Camping, a Smart Kirby will crouch the lasers, and approach while you run off laser because he has time to do so, Not to mention, if you don't have a Silent Laser, your laser will never hit Kirby, unless you fire Grounded lasers because that's not a stupid idea ( Obvious Sarcasm ).

As for Kirby doing an approach, spaced full hop bairs, they will hit our face, and are safe on block, his Bair is safe on block when spaced. SAFE ON BLOCK, I advise you realise, it's SAFE ON BLOCK. Don't try to punish it, please.

As for Falco approaching, I'm not going to tell you what I do, because, not everyone plays the same. Such a surprise. Anyway, Approaching with Short Hop Silent Lasers is alright, +3 advantage on Shield, other than that, this Mu is mostly punishing Kirby.

If he swallows us, consider it game, his Short Hop Double laser is the lowest a Laser can go, it goes under our reflector, not to mention, at 50%, a nair will hit us into a laser lock position, not fun,.

We can Dair him out of Final Cutter, He can dair us out of our recovery. Win win.
We kill him at around 130% with Usmash + Di.
He kills us at 100% with F-Smash.
Of course, these are fresh.

Kirby out camps us when he has the Lasers, and beats us in the air, as well as we go even with him on the ground.

Stages, Avoid stages with Walls, Slants, stages that are close, stay away from those.

Major two stages to avoid.

Avoid Yoshi's Island at ALL COSTS, basically, take Falco, remove his Laser, give him no B, and Have Kirby sit on a Slant for the entire match, not coming at all.
Then give Kirby a Laser, and it goes under our Reflector, also remove IAP, our option to recover is Firebird and the oh so punishable Phantasm.

Anyway, avoid YIB and Lylat, as well as RC, BStar, Kirby does well on those too.


Jab works well in this MU.
Jab -> Jab is not a smart Idea, that's just asking to have us Grabbed.

I have a lot to write.. but, people can help out too.

Just a word from my stand point, I wouldn't listen to Xeylode, or That guy with the green name.
 

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#12
Just a word from my stand point, I wouldn't listen to Xeylode, or That guy with the green name.
Why not? Nothing I posted disagreed with what you had to say really other than my use of Ftilt. You just went into more details in your post.

I personally believe Ftilt is great in this MU for Falco. It spaces well and can punish bad approaches. Also, unless Kirby swallows you and has lasers, he is forced to approach.
 
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#13
With FH Bair is safe on block, you can instead cover Kirby's landing with lasers or get under him with the relative safety of platforms.

Might as well.. I don't think anyone knows what they're talking about here. . .

. . .I wouldn't listen to Xeylode. . .
lol That's the reason for the discussion is for people to learn. Jumping to an overview and match-up number without going into details makes a match-up discussion rather pointless.

And yes, I post BS 100% of the time so I can have people rip me apart and learn from it. Sadly, no one does it that much. So if it doesn't take too much effort, please put me in my place.
 

Bloodcross

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#14
It's 0-31% actually. Nothing beyond 31%. I prefer dash grab but either works.

Kirby Bair is safe on block when spaced and I agree that you shouldn't bother punishing unless if you know it's poorly spaced. You can Jab OoS if Bair is poorly spaced. Don't attack with anything else but Jab. But rolling away is still the better option and shieldgrabbing is generally not the best idea. If you want that grab, do some single jabs to pull them in, then grab. If they spotdodge the grab, and they will, Jab some more. You HAVE to abuse your ****.

BUT AGAIN, A SPACED BAIR IS SAFE ON BLOCK SO... WELP. It comes in time whether you can punish or not.

At low percents, camp and abuse your traits like clowsui said (wait dair pressure? wtf? don't get grabbed LOL). Yeah, you don't want to get grabbed. You can sdi away from fthrow and from the first hit of uptilt iirc. But it's best not to get grabbed anyway (it's what Kirby wants). At this point, you should be watching how Kirby will want to punish your phantasm use. Running back and shield, Dair in place, Fsmash, Bair, even Nair (puts you in landing penalty and he can grab or Fsmash you out of it... though he might start with a dtilt before the grab/fsmash)...... look for these options so you can mixup your side b game

At high percents, maintain a good shield. Kirby will fish for that Bair + Fsmash hit. Look for airdodge mixups so that you don't whiff an attack/grab. In that kind of situation, either keep your shield up, or roll away a couple of times to the other side (rolling is faster than falco's run after all). You don't die from upthrow until... well at least 190% iirc. Keep in mind Kirby can swallow your shield and stage spike you or copy your lazers. You don't want that. If you know Kirby will fish for a swallow, back off and play center stage.

I also agree that you should avoid Yoshi's. THAT STAGE IS JUST BS FOR REASONS ALREADY MENTIONED. That and Lylat. Rainbow Cruise isn't THAT bad. Kirby thrives on punishing your aerial recovery on that stage but you should be fine. First part of the stage, just play normal. Then when you get to the moving parts, jump away from Kirby. It takes Kirby longer for him to get up than Falco (that high vertical jump).
 

1PokeMastr

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#16
Stay away from high platforms at higher Damages, maybe around 140-ish, Being killed by a Throw that doesn't belong to Ness is sad.
If you time it right, you can Dacus Kirby out of his Final Cutter on his way up/ down, making it safer from afar.
Also, to be noted, if Kirby fast falls a properly spaced bair in a short hop, he goes lower than his crouch.
Also, he can D-Tilt under our grab range, just like he can crouch under Link's tether grab.

Be wary of Falco's Multi hit Jab, any move that can be done in the air that is 10 frames or Faster, can hit us if we have it going too long and they SDi up. and if they SDi away and down, we'll eat an F-Smash, if they SDi behind us.. we eat an F-Smash, so, don't jab too long or you'll eat an F-Smash.
Our Uair is always an Option, it does kill respectively early, and is great when they're above us, as, our Uair is faster than, or same frame as Kirby's Dair, not to Mention it's a 6 frame hit box and each frame has a different knock back angle/ strength. Short hoping it does have its' uses under platforms, as well as Nair.
Uair Frame 10: Straight up, Kills around 90 - 120%
11; Similar to 10.
12/ 13: Odd knockback that sends to the Left/ Right/ Diagonal up.. and even if you Di it properly, you still die.
14: Has almost no knock back at all, great for set ups at any percent really. Doesn't kill.
15: More knock back than 14, doesn't kill.
Also, these are the most common order.. they do tend to be different at times, for some reason, Uair is still great in my opinion.


Other than that.. I'm going to be like the Dk boards on a Mu.
Camp lasers and Punish lots.
 

MARLX

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#17
I think this match up is 60-40 in kirbys favor.
I say this because of the throw combos, all together that is 87% and a fresh side smash would wipe us out.
Kirby can dodge Falcos lasers and use our lasers against us.
Kirby can dair us out of our vertical recovery and kill Falco.
Kirby can wall of pain Falco and we can't survive.

The only thing Falco can do is minimum camping.
Jab cancels and phantasms.
CG to dair and gatling combo.
 

DJ Arcatek

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#18
No Falco should be getting grab combo'd until 87%. The most is like 25% with BAD SDI. If you receive 87% from one Kirby throw, there seems to be a problem. Don't get predictable with your recovery and you won't get dair'd out of firebird.... As a matter of fact, I don't remember the last time I've been gimp'd by Kirby. Ftilt and Jab keeps Kirby at bay and so does our Side B, so even then he has a hard time approaching anyway.


Plus, if Kirby decides to camp us with our own lasers, we can just reflector them. He literally can't do anything about OUR lasers except duck or air dodge through them. He HAS to approach us. Sure, he has a good Fsmash, but our Fsmash is just as good considering the range and power it has. It USED to be in Kirby's favor when the game came out, but Falcos have found a way around Kirby's shenanigans, so now it's 55:45 - 60:40 Falco's favor.
 

MARLX

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#19
No Falco should be getting grab combo'd until 87%. The most is like 25% with BAD SDI. If you receive 87% from one Kirby throw, there seems to be a problem. Don't get predictable with your recovery and you won't get dair'd out of firebird.... As a matter of fact, I don't remember the last time I've been gimp'd by Kirby. Ftilt and Jab keeps Kirby at bay and so does our Side B, so even then he has a hard time approaching anyway.


Plus, if Kirby decides to camp us with our own lasers, we can just reflector them. He literally can't do anything about OUR lasers except duck or air dodge through them. He HAS to approach us. Sure, he has a good Fsmash, but our Fsmash is just as good considering the range and power it has. It USED to be in Kirby's favor when the game came out, but Falcos have found a way around Kirby's shenanigans, so now it's 55:45 - 60:40 Falco's favor.
DEHF V. Chudat 0-death throw combo.:(
 

-DR3W-

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#20
1. Kirby does not have a 0-death on anyone, so if DEHF got 0-death'd it was by reads. Hard ****ing reads.
2. It's ****ing Chu.
3. That percentage does not apply to everyone or that matchup. That's like saying if I chaingrabbed and followed up someone until they were at 81%, it would happen to everyone.

I'd like to see that video, though.

DJ Jack lol I love the way you worded that: "If you receive 87% from one Kirby throw, there seems to be a problem."
 

Bloodcross

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#23
I miss techs and airdodge to my death all the time lmao

But it's so satisfying if you get the tech.

Also, no you can't "punish" bair with full hop lasers. Wtf even if you hit him, it deals... what... 3%? And the hitstun Kirby would take doesn't last long anyway and if he's close enough he'll just bair your lag after the laser. Maybe full hop reflector, at least you can retreat that. But I still say just stay grounded in that situation.
 

Bloodcross

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#25
(it'd be a safe punish on battlefield, that's why I was curious.)

:phone:
Sure, maybe on BF. That is if you get the no landing lag on the top platform.

I personally wouldn't bother even on BF.

Oh and I wouldn't even use the term "punish" since you're not really dishing out damage and since your full hop goes higher than Kirby's, you really won't be in range for follow ups from the laser that might not even hit Kirby in the first place.
 

BleachigoZX

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#26
Eh, I will figure it out.

We have to have some crazy punish on it. I really don't like the idea of a full hop aerial that isn't disjointed being safe on block. Its so dumb. I feel cocky in this MU, but random things like that scare me and make me doubt how well Falco can do against Kirby.

:phone:
 

Twinster

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#28
Alright so I feel like I am pretty experienced in this MU. I play against the only Kirby in AL daily. PokeMastr did very well in explaining everything. I am just going to state a few things he missed. First of all, Delfino Plaza is a very bad stage in this MU. During the moving portion of it, it is very very very dangerous for Falco. Kirby can keep Falco off stage very easy and if the Falco is not careful he could wind up in a situation where he could lose a stock. Alot of Kirby's will look for U-tilt combos. If you approach him in a wrong way he could do an OoS U-tilt or something depending on how he reads you. Another move to watch out for is Kirby's D-tilt. It is fairly fast and it can cause you to trip. Kirby can dash grab you or F-smash you then. Since kirby does not have as many options as half the characters in the game, they will rely on thier ability to read you. The Kirby's that I have played against read pretty well and catch on fast. Be careful in how you approach and try not to get sucked in. Overall it is 45-55 Kirby's favor. If I think of anything else I will edit.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#29
It's not Kirby's favor; George is just good.

Abuse your traits and stay safe. Jabs, tilts, grabs, and lasers. Don't fish for kills. Don't get your phantasm *****. It's ALL basic Falco. This match-up is textbook fundamentals against a character who can hurt you pretty bad (although not nearly on the scope of some characters) if you **** up or get over anxious.
 

-DR3W-

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DrewTheAsher
#30
It's not Kirby's favor; George is just good.

Abuse your traits and stay safe. Jabs, tilts, grabs, and lasers. Don't fish for kills. Don't get your phantasm *****. It's ALL basic Falco. This match-up is textbook fundamentals against a character who can hurt you pretty bad (although not nearly on the scope of some characters) if you **** up or get over anxious.
That's what you could say against all matchups.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#31
There's also a lot more specific information you could say about other match-ups as Kirby is a very straight forward match-up. He's gonna do his thing and Falcos are gonna do our thing.

Watch out for the 0% grab bull**** and care about his Bair, F/Dtilt, and his FSmash. Stages are the same as any Falco match-up against a character who's good in the air. Ban Brinstar/RCruise, expect to play the other, CP to SVille.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#33
Okay? It's not a shot at you. I've lost to him in tournament as well. Kismet, however, has not and I have not seen anything that leads me to believe Kirby outright beats Falco.
 

-DR3W-

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DrewTheAsher
#36
Don't bring people into a character discussion.

People are changing variables. What characters can do are not.
 

crashman360

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#37
Hold up. just saying whoever said falco can chain grab kirby 4 times, you are talking about the down throw right? because the only way falco can chain grab the person with that 4 times, is if

A: the persons retarded.

B: his DI completely sucks.

I personally have only been chain grabbed by falco a maximum of 2 times at a time, and thats at 0% just saying, that's completely situational based on the person. in most cases anyway lol

AND all of you are wrong. techinically the matchup between kirby and falco is 50-50. it's just most kirby's don't know what their doing;
 

1PokeMastr

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#38
Kirby can't escape the Chain grab until 4 down throws have passed, assuming you start at 0%.
You can only escape if the Falco messes up.

The Mu is +1 Falco.
Then it rolls over to even when Kirby gets the lasers.
 
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