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Q&A Falco, King of the Birds: Game Play Discussion

Snipnigth

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I've started playing Falco and he's super fun, but I don't understand his jab. How do I not get hit between jab 2 and rapid jab?
Press the A button real fast....some floaty characters can easily get out of his rapid jab, luigi and yoshi for example, they can even interrupt it with an nair, so sometimes is just better to go for jab 1 then grab or tilt
 

Ffamran

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Any response is greatly appreciated.
Ground spacing with Dtilt, Ftilt, and jab. Dtilt is overall the safest and most rewarding, but it only works on the ground, so if your opponent is airborne for whatever reason i.e. Link doing a dash attack or Fox jumping to do a Bair, it's not going to work. Ftilt covers good horizontal range, can be angled to anti-air or "anti-crouch" or start a lock after someone misses a tech. The only issue with Ftilt is its low knockback at low percents. Perfect pivoting either of these will allow Falco to quickly retreat or advance with them. Jab works well, but because of how it was transitioned from Brawl to Smash 4, it's not as safe; +5 total frames to jab 1, +7 frames to jab 2, and +2 to +4 frames between jab 2 to rapid jab's transition more or less destroys Falco against characters who have frame 5 or below moves like Luigi's Nair or Captain Falcon's jab where they can hit through you if you hesitate between doing a jab mix-up or full jab combo.

With aerials involved, Bair works, but not really against shorter characters like Kirby. Although, using it to bait by sporadically empty hopping backwards or using Bair can throw people off. Do they go in and eat a Bair that can kill at 80% at the ledge or do they risk getting caught by an empty hop bait. Bair's auto-cancel window also lets Falco throw a Bair out baiting an action letting him punish with Ftilt, Dtilt, jab, grab, etc. Uair can also work, but it doesn't have a lot of horizontal range, but still has a good auto-cancel window like Bair, so you can bait people.

Adding Specials, Falco's got Reflector for close to mid-range poking. It's unsafe on-shield and whiffed, so make sure you do hit someone with it. A way to confirm it is with Dtilt at low percents or Ftilt due to its low knockback and Reflector's range.

Edit: Forgot about this, but Nair edgeguarding in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qvnMtVQMBo. Kind of like what @A2ZOMG was talking about. I don't know what the intro's about...
 
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Anragon

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I'll just approve 100% what Ffamran said. That's all you need to know for spacing.

I'll just add this :

Careful with F-tilt because the foot of Falco is not intangible and can be hit. I got grabbed or hit from very far just because my opponent throwed something after F-tilt hitbox (when Falco's foot is retreating). Ridiculous. So don't spam F-tilt mindlessly

I'd like to give a special mention to F-air due to its multi-hit properties and Frame 1 hitbox on landing. Falco's beak is also intangible so it can go things without getting hit (although Falco's head might get reached). Max ranged reatreating F-airs are quite safe most of the time.
 

Ffamran

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Forgot about this...
Careful with F-tilt because the foot of Falco is not intangible and can be hit. I got grabbed or hit from very far just because my opponent throwed something after F-tilt hitbox (when Falco's foot is retreating). Ridiculous. So don't spam F-tilt mindlessly
Aside from Falco Phase, Down Smash, and maybe Up Smash - both involving his legs being partially invincible -, Falco doesn't have anything that's intangible. With moves that have hurtboxes and hitboxes, so basically anything that doesn't involve a weapon or is not specified like Falco's Side Smash being transcendent or Down Smash having partial intangibility frames, it's normal for the recovery part of a move to be hit as it no longer has an active hitbox. The only issue if for whatever reason, the hurtbox is lagging behind the animation or is stretched out for some reason like in the case of Samus's Ftilt or Marth and Lucina's Shield Breaker.

So long as you hit your opponent before or even when they grab, it's fine since there isn't any grab armor in this game. Ftilt's a good poke, but like all moves not matter how broken like Diddy's pre-patch 1.0.6 Uair, you can't use them mindlessly.

I'd like to give a special mention to F-air due to its multi-hit properties and Frame 1 hitbox on landing. Falco's beak is also intangible so it can go things without getting hit (although Falco's head might get reached). Max ranged reatreating F-airs are quite safe most of the time.
Fair is just slightly disjointed while Fair's landing hit doesn't even match the animation - it's probably his aerial Fair hitbox in length, but looks longer because of Falco's landing position.

I don't know about Falco's beak being intangible as that was never mentioned in Dantarion's data mining of Smash 4, however, it could be possible that Falco's beak isn't completely covered as part of his natural hurtbox, but that's kind of ridiculous for such a small part of his body.

The issue with using Fair on-stage is its landing lag of 25 and while it's covered by a landing hit, it's still not really safe since if they just stand away from Falco and he lands, then Falco's vulnerable for 24 frames - minus a frame because of Fair's landing hit is only active for 1 frame and comes out at frame 1. Retreating Fairs and full hop Fairs won't really do much, but put out a lingering hitbox people don't want to challenge. Nair can be used the same and even Dair, but they're just not useful for spacing in terms of covering an area quickly and safely. They're also not that really versatile. For me, Nair, Fair, and Dair are better air-to-air than spacing moves.
 

Dark Dire Wolf

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Falco's so fun when his weaknesses aren't being exploited.

It might just be wifi, but fair seems a bit safer now. I can jab or spot dodge out of it if I hit it on shield.
 

W.A.C.

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What exactly are Falco's options at neutral? His approach options and camp game seem atrocious in Smash 4.
 
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Shaya

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His ideal is out playing the opponent in footsies. Down tilt, forward tilt and jab are pretty close to win buttons used appropriately.
He can otherwise attempt to contest with dash pivot jump back airs (he slides a lot in the animation and during your jump squat), which he can hit most of the cast on rise, or wait a bit and fast fall; he has a lot of leeway on auto cancelling too.

He has to take it slow though. He needs the opponent attempting to attack him. New shields probably help him because his tilts are some of the higher damage values of the fast ones, and some of the best range too.

I think the simplest/safest notion is "he's all about spacing... ... ... down tilt". It's stupidly safe, stupidly disjointed, stupidly good range, does pretty good damage, sets up for combos at nearly all percent, can kill... it is genuinely one of the best in the game.
 
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NotAnAdmin

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Shaya Shaya pretty much covered most of it, but I think his most important is his bair.

It's honestly on of the best bairs in the game, it's super safe, fast and has next to no landing lag even when fast-fall'd. His neutral is all about staying mobile and staying outside of your opponent's range and taking advantage when they miss-space something or over commit. He has to play the footsie game because his approach game isn't very strong. He was given some pretty strong spacing tools to balance it out though.
 
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Ffamran

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I think the simplest/safest notion is "he's all about spacing... ... ... down tilt". It's stupidly safe, stupidly disjointed, stupidly good range, does pretty good damage, sets up for combos at nearly all percent, can kill... it is genuinely one of the best in the game.
Patch 1.1.1 made jab 1 into pre-1.1.1 Dtilt, it's -10 like a spaced pre-1.1.1 Dtilt and now, Dtilt is even better on shield; it's -5 instead of -9. Also, hilariously, Dair is -7 after shield drop. You're never going to land that in neutral, but it's kind of stupid how it's as safe as Ftilt. Incidentally, this makes Dair on shield safer at below 50% which is when it starts being -7 on-hit; at 0%, Dair is -24. As for Uair and Bair which were safe-ish on-shield, Uair is -1, clean Bair is +1, and late Bair is -2. Have fun, everyone.

Also, plausible Uair to Dair setup?
 
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KenMeister

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Just wanted to ask this to make sure my opponent isn't an idiot, but whenever I space a fair on shield, I usually end hitting them OoS upon landing. Is it because there's a landing hitbox that pokes their shield or did they drop it too early?
 

NotAnAdmin

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They dropped it too early. Upon landing Falco has a hitbox that comes out on the first frame and lasts for that one frame I believe.
It's very weak, but it can catch the ones who don't know about it if they get too hasty.
 

Shaya

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:4falco:
Attack | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
Neutral Air Pre | [-28,-42] | [-24,-38] | -12 | 2
Neutral Air Final | [-20,-21] | [-16,-17] | -11 | 7
Forward Air Pre | [-20,-37] | [-17,-34] | -23 | 2
Forward Air Final | [-16,-17] | [-13,-14] | -21 | 10
Fair Landing | [-15,-15] | | | 2
Back Air Sweet | [-23,-24] | [-2,-3] | -6 | 4
Back Air Sour | [-20,-25] | [1,-4] | -9 | 4
Up Air | [-15,-19] | [-6,-10] | -8 | 4
Down Air Sweet | [-23,-26] | [-11,-14] | -14 | 10
Down Air Sour | [-15,-25] | [-3,-13] | -17 | 3

Fair's [+landing hitbox] and up air are falco's two best "aerials" for combo starters; yeahhhhhhhhhhhh~
At least if you're considering staying in the air or suddenly landing with fair.
 
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Dark Dire Wolf

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Does Falco have any kill confirms now, or are we still destined to go fishing for the bair for the rest of our days?
 

NotAnAdmin

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None outside of jab to fsmash/upsmash, but those are easy to disrupt if you have a quick aerial move or jab. You can even DI down and just shield it.
If there are any others I don't know them.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Does Falco have any kill confirms now, or are we still destined to go fishing for the bair for the rest of our days?
Some setups, not sure if gaurenteed.

Up air into bair, sourspot bair into sweetspot bair, phantasm into bair, up throw to up air, up throw to bair, up air to dair, and fair to fair on certain stages with small blastzones.
 

BlueBirdE

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Shaya Shaya brought up a good point about offstage. I think falco has a very good edgeguard game and perfecting it would be rly beneficial. Ive had Sourpot dair to nair work before and kamikaze gimp characters like fox. I feel theres more than can be improved here.

Also perfecting uair to bair frame traps at kill percent from setups like uthrow, ffuair and anything else would rly help. I think the first place to start would be knowing each characters fall and fast fall speeds
 
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tibs7

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Shaya Shaya that table - under the landing section is that on shield hit, so the amount of time to punish, or just landing with it normally?

Also, peoples thoughts on Falco vs Doc? specially the neutral part of the MU
 

Jabzilla

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I have been using Sliding Pivots a lot recently with Falco. It is pretty decent for Falco as you get a bit of a slide off it which Falco needs due to being relatively slow.
 

BlueBirdE

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Are sliding pivots effective in the neutral? If we can reliably tomahawk with our bair or pivot slide into tipper dtilt then its more of reason to keep our backs turned.
 

Ffamran

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What does tomahawk bair mean?
What Gamegenie said. Also, I think battleaxe is a empty full hop... I don't know why these terms exist and I'm sure tomahawks and battleaxes aren't supposed to be thrown in arcs like that and "full hops" make no sense since we can only hop or jump in Smash... Empty hops and empty jumps are much simpler. RAR is also an unnecessary term. If I tell you to Bair someone, I don't need to tell you that you need to Bair someone... Unless you're playing as a character with multiple hitboxes on their Bair like Sheik, it's common sense that you will figure out that you need to somehow face away to do a back-hitting move. Pivot Bair would be fine compared to RAR (reverse aerial rush) Bair. I don't know where that "rush" comes from and "aerial" becomes redundant.
 
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BlueBirdE

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I've been using fullhop lasers > fair as a frametrap and it's been working but does it really?
I actually do this for edgeguarding and ive caught a lot of people with it. Theyll either airdodge the laser and be in position for my offense with fair,nair or dair, or they can get hit and jump which becomes like a 50/50 if i predict theyll jump.
Probably stretching a bit but I feel theres like an "edgeguard tree" for falco
 

Dark Dire Wolf

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Empty jump bar seems like a contradictory term. The jump isn't so empty when Falco's best move is being used lol. Thanks again!
 

BlueBirdE

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Empty jump bar seems like a contradictory term. The jump isn't so empty when Falco's best move is being used lol. Thanks again!
Its more a mix up. When u short hop u could go for the bair or land and short hop again or dash grab or pivot slide dtilt if what im thinking is right.
 

Ffamran

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We could just call it a bait; bait with Bair. A Falco hopping backwards is baiting so he can punish with Bair or land woth an empty hop to grab or whatever.
 

Jabzilla

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Are sliding pivots effective in the neutral? If we can reliably tomahawk with our bair or pivot slide into tipper dtilt then its more of reason to keep our backs turned.
It is decent. Though I am not too sure how it affects his neutral but you can grab during the slide which does offer mixups. I got it from this video from McDareth at around the 3 minute mark he uses Falco and you can see that he travels a bit with the pivot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgSYA8QrviE
 

BlueBirdE

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Tried to find some uses for fthrow on stage. I think we can set up for great damage with it.

Example I tried on Sonic. Starting at 36% no rage fthrow will cause a tumble state, I believe this a forced tech situation if they di down like u would for dthrow. I would walk up and strong dtilt at the exact time theyre supposed to tech. if they miss the tech i can combo dilt to uair fair and depending %,di, stage position i think this could kill. If they tech in place I THINK you can mash ur 2 frame start up jab and catch them. if they tech away, depending stage position u can catch them with a walk up tilt,laser or reflector. If they tech behind again i think u can catch them if the dtilt is positioned for a tipper.

Why do this over u throw uair/bair? When I was testing with sonic uthrow uair is all i could rly get at the percent. With fthrow if what i said above is correct ur options are covered and u can still get the same damage if not better if they miss a tech.

Also fthrow/dthrow would make an interest di mixup if they expect an fthrow but you dthrow into reverse uairs :)

All theory right now
 

Snipnigth

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Tried to find some uses for fthrow on stage. I think we can set up for great damage with it.

Example I tried on Sonic. Starting at 36% no rage fthrow will cause a tumble state, I believe this a forced tech situation if they di down like u would for dthrow. I would walk up and strong dtilt at the exact time theyre supposed to tech. if they miss the tech i can combo dilt to uair fair and depending %,di, stage position i think this could kill. If they tech in place I THINK you can mash ur 2 frame start up jab and catch them. if they tech away, depending stage position u can catch them with a walk up tilt,laser or reflector. If they tech behind again i think u can catch them if the dtilt is positioned for a tipper.

Why do this over u throw uair/bair? When I was testing with sonic uthrow uair is all i could rly get at the percent. With fthrow if what i said above is correct ur options are covered and u can still get the same damage if not better if they miss a tech.

Also fthrow/dthrow would make an interest di mixup if they expect an fthrow but you dthrow into reverse uairs :)

All theory right now
Its a good mixup but, i think its better to go for the guaranteed % always...Adding to the cause, i once saw a video dont remember who, its was on a stage with plataform, smashvill i think, he did and Fthrow and then full hoped into laser, his opponent landed in the plataform and the laser hit him causing a jablock effect, then falco upsmashed or something, cool mixup
 

BlueBirdE

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Ive had something similar with the back throw. May be good to do on a moving platform towards and end it with a bair or reverse uair into bair. Ill look into it.

As for fthrow on stage its likely situational. Uthrow uair will about 18%. Fthrow does about 8-9% i believe. The dtilt combo i mentioned above will do about 31% so a missed to tech wpuld lead to about 40% in total in risking 8%-9%. Also if the options are covered like im thinking it could be, the multi hit jab should add up to about the same % and reflector/laser about 4% less.

I think the best situation for an fthrow would be if it was done towards the very edge of the stage, which means teching in place and away would be the same result.

Ill put in practice and see how it goes.
 
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