Q&A Falco, King of the Birds: Game Play Discussion

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

At low percents there are 2 pretty good d-throw combos which have some good follow-ups, like D-throw to U-smash or d-throw to dash attack. I do use up-throw rarely for mix-ups, and sometimes to conditionpeople to air dodge in the air, but other than that i use D-throw and back throw only.

 

[Snipnigth]

so I basically never down throw anymore is this bad?
I feel like upthrow combos are more reliable, even at low percents, do more damage, and provide for more follow ups. am I missing something?

I think you may be right, dthrow combos are only really reliable at 0% or 10%, more than that ppl can DI away from it...with upthrow, combos like upthrow into full hop upair and then bair are possibles.

 

[IndigoSSB]

At low percents there are 2 pretty good d-throw combos which have some good follow-ups, like D-throw to U-smash or d-throw to dash attack. I do use up-throw rarely for mix-ups, and sometimes to conditionpeople to air dodge in the air, but other than that i use D-throw and back throw only.

That's interesting, it's the opposite for me. I mix in my down throw combos every once in a while, into Up smash (at really low %), bair, and dash attack, but I mainly use up throw into up air. It does roughly the same amount of damage as d-throw to bair, but on stages with platforms I can either extend the combo or stay on the ground and pressure the opponent below the platform.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

That's interesting, it's the opposite for me. I mix in my down throw combos every once in a while, into Up smash (at really low %), bair, and dash attack, but I mainly use up throw into up air. It does roughly the same amount of damage as d-throw to bair, but on stages with platforms I can either extend the combo or stay on the ground and pressure the opponent below the platform.

I condition people to air dodge with up throw... But I truly combo with Dthrow.

 

[Ffamran]

So, a while back, I asked about this issue with Falco's Up Smash... I found out why.

Eh... Found a random video... Up Smash Z-axis shenanigans with Luigi's Super Jump Punch landing animation: https://youtu.be/zekLwF70qUQ? Someone want to text this out since 3DS can't work 2 players for training mode.

A thread in the Wii Fit Trainer boards was a research on what moves WFT could crouch under and Falco's Up Smash was listed, so I got curious. So, checking Up Smash's hitbox, the first active hitbox at frame 8 isn't on the ground or anywhere near it. I didn't take a screenshot, but I'll update it later. For now, let's imagine a circle or a dial in Falco's body. Standing, Falco's legs would be at 270 degrees or 6 o'clock. When he uses Up Smash, the first hit involves his right leg at 0 or 360 degrees or 3 o'clock. His left leg is still facing the ground, so his legs form a right angle. 0 degrees or 3 o'clock is about Falco's waist level.

This explains why he can't hit WFT crouching or Luigi going through his Super Jump Punch landing animation. The question obviously is this a major issue? Not really since if you're aiming to hit ground level, Falco has other options like jab, face forward Utilt, angled down Ftilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Down Smash, falling Nair, Fair's landing hit, frame perfect falling Bair, Dair, Falco Phantasm, and even Fire Bird. That being said, it would be nice if Falco could hit lower with his Up Smash since the animation does show Falco's heel sweeping at a lower level than the actual hitbox, except there's a problem...

Please note I don't know much about game development, so these following ideas might be nonsense. Assuming a hitbox must be called earlier, fixing this might involve speeding up Falco's Up Smash. While it isn't an abusive move or a terribly strong move, people might not like a high active frame and high damage move that is fairly fast getting fast. Granted, this hitbox would be purely for ground coverage, but sometimes, people just see numbers in black and white and might assume Falco's Up Smash is now way too fast. At worst, it might involve making it frame 5, but it could work as a frame 6 or 7 lower hitbox. The other option is "slowing" down Falco's Up Smash. This is something like slowing down the animation making the lower hitbox look like it fits the hit while retaining its 8 frame startup. Kind of like a reverse treatment to his Uair and Fair where the animation was sped up.

 

[Illuvial]

Ok, so I actually played Sm4sh for the first time in what feels like ages (its been like 9 months!!!) and holy hell I've fallen in love with the game again. But a lot of time has come and gone, so I must ask. What the hell's happened to our bird since then in terms of where he places within the meta? I've read patch notes, seems like he's gotten slightly stronger, but I'm sort of at a loss for how the game has developed and how he's placing overall.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Ok, so I actually played Sm4sh for the first time in what feels like ages (its been like 9 months!!!) and holy hell I've fallen in love with the game again. But a lot of time has come and gone, so I must ask. What the hell's happened to our bird since then in terms of where he places within the meta? I've read patch notes, seems like he's gotten slightly stronger, but I'm sort of at a loss for how the game has developed and how he's placing overall.

Welcome back to smash 4, 9 months away sound like forever xD. A small minority believe he's still low tier, but everybody more or less agree that he's at least jumped to solid mid-tier. He still suffers from problems he had before like his speed and weak neutral due to lasers being Sakurai'd. In terms of buffs the two big things are uair and nair. His up air got a reduction of knockback and ending lag, giving him a VERY good combo game, second only to Luigi in my opinion. His nair autolinks now, so if you get the first hit you'll probably connect with the rest of the move. This buffed his combo game and his edgeguarding game.

He's still far from being high-tier, that'll probably never happen until his lasers or speed get buffed. However, he's way more viable than he was 9 months ago now that he has strengths to outweigh his weaknesses.

 

[Kitzu]

Have some questions, I'm considering picking Falco up aswell as Fox because I thought they would be nice together c:

Speaking of which, how would Fox + Falco be? Is that good or bad?

How is Falco played? I know he doesn't have many approach options and from seeing some tournament matches I see people doing things like a landing up air.

Any good guides I could see, youtube or on here would be great.

Thanks in advance, I'll edit if I have more questions.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Have some questions, I'm considering picking Falco up aswell as Fox because I thought they would be nice together c:

Speaking of which, how would Fox + Falco be? Is that good or bad?

How is Falco played? I know he doesn't have many approach options and from seeing some tournament matches I see people doing things like a landing up air.

Any good guides I could see, youtube or on here would be great.

Thanks in advance, I'll edit if I have more questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6X759rIxBU
Probably the best thing about Falco on youtube, has a lot of things you should know about the character.

I'm not sure if Fox would be a good secondary gameplay wise since a lot of their properties are very similar, such as their fast falling characteristics. However, Fox would definitely help if you're having trouble approaching a character that spaces well. I'd recommend focusing on either Fox or Falco first, and see where you stand from there.

"How is Falco played?" This is hard to answer because I'm not sure how similar other Falco players play (there are very few of us, we're like an endangered species lol). Falco's definitely not a straight up rush down character, he's too slow for that. I guess the best way to describe it is a methodical, cautious offense, always seeking an opening to get to an advantageous state. Although his neutral is lacking, his abilities in advantage are very good.

Like I said earlier, if you're starting out it would probably be best to focus on either Fox or Falco first rather than trying to learn them at the same time. Their moves look similar, but their playstyles are different.

Hope this helped ;p

 

[Kitzu]

IndigoSSB Thanks very much! Also if you have any knowledge on mains and secondaries etc, which one would best fit with my main? Fox is partially rushdown I was told on the Fox boards, and so is Yoshi.

 

[IndigoSSB]

IndigoSSB Thanks very much! Also if you have any knowledge on mains and secondaries etc, which one would best fit with my main? Fox is partially rushdown I was told on the Fox boards, and so is Yoshi.

That depends on what characters you have trouble with (by main I'm assuming you mean Yoshi). I'm not too well versed on Yoshi's match-ups.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

Is Falco able to ledge cancel his side B?

 

[Zionaze]

You wish dawg

 

[Ffamran]

What are Falco's best laser combos? I keep trying some, but they are a total pain in my arse haha.

This would be better asked in this thread or the approaches and combo/strings thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-approaches-and-combos-strings.372417/. The social is more for laid-back discussion like talking about the new Star Fox game, amiibo, or other miscellaneous banter.

To answer, Falco can setup Blaster after F-throw, B-throw, and D-throw. Really depends on how your opponent DIs, your timing, and percents. So, it's probably not wise to D-throw to Blaster at low percents, but a higher percents and especially if your opponent is off-stage, it'll be less risky. The most notable example of this setup comes from Ally's Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-c09dysUbg. As an edgeguard tool, lasers causing hit stun, stalling your opponent's momentum, and preventing your opponent from grabbing the ledge can force your opponent to have to pick options off-stage if they don't want to be in bad positions or be gimped.

 

[Sepia_Trace]

Thanks, I was trying to get advice from my friends in the social Didn't know such comradery was illegal haha.

 

[UzakiuzuG]

Good Morning my fellow Falco mains/secondaries etc... Since I haven't had my wii u recently it has given me plenty of time to smash theory. The only times I get the chance to play is at our bar on Tuesdays called "Hideaway Saloon" (For those who live in Louisville KY) were a lot of people from our tourney scene come to play, learn, socialize, and tournaments in the MidWest (KY,Indiana,Ohio,Chicago) region.

I main FalcoN, but as of late I have been dedicating some time into Falco. I've read numerous threads, and watched many clips featuring Keitaro, TKBreezy, Larry Lurr, Zanryo, Bravo just to name a few within the forum that were definitely insightful. In order to progress the meta I believe that we should be developing more strategies towards situations. While it comes easy for some it can be very difficult for others. For example *Falcon main* After down throwing falcon has plenty options according to how the opponent DI's.
The Art of Falco made by "Izaw" was a step in the right direction.
[Teaching how to read the situations if the opponent does A, Falco should be doing B] We must follow up on what he has put forth. Bringing our options out to the public eye not only helps YOU as a Falco player,it helps your fellow Falco comrades.

We should be discussing more follow up opportunities in order to maximize the potential of each situation. Looking further into strings,combos, searching for a kill confirm other than Up-Air bait the air dodge. While Falco is know to be a very honest character with enough information, slight tweaks and possibly with buffs in the future patch, Falco can soar through the future tier list.

P.S I'm hoping on Monday I'll have a Wii U again I can get some training sessions with you all, and figure things out. *Red Westballz color Falco is the best* lol

Since this is the Q&A section, my question is While Falco's run and aerial speed is....slow.. Would it be faster to Foxtrot,Jump, or full animation run to get to the other side?

 

[HoSmash4]

What are Falco's ledge coverage options?

 

[theONEjanitor]

Since this is the Q&A section, my question is While Falco's run and aerial speed is....slow.. Would it be faster to Foxtrot,Jump, or full animation run to get to the other side?

Of those three, full dashing is probably the fastest. But using phantasm is faster still (obviously have no options during phantasm though). You're probably not going to be chasing people on the ground much, and you shouldn't being running much regardless. Falco's walk speed is almost as fast (slow) as his run speed, and you have many more options while walking than you do while running. Foxtroting, walking, and short hopping are better ways to move around than running imo

What are Falco's ledge coverage options?

a well timed upsmash covers regular get up and ledge jump, well spaced retreating or turn around fair can cover both ledge attack (for most characters i believe) and ledge roll. if your opponent does anything except ledge attack, you should be able to punish on reaction with like grab/jab (in case of regular get up), or grab/dash attack/etc for ledge roll. ledge jump is ridiculously safe in this game, and if they ledge jump to buffer airdodge, you probably won't react quick enough to beat it. if they ledge jump to anything else you can usually intercept it on reaction with aerial of choice. just beware the stupid airdodge. obviously if you know they will airdodge just wait it out and punish.

imo falco is better at edgeguarding than he is at covering the ledge tho

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Falco's Rolls are also a pretty decent way to move around since they are fast and cover a long distance. I saw Nairo do this a couple of times in his match against Mr. E.

 

[BltzZ]

So I think Falco beats sheik, opinions?

Playing For glory and decided to try this out and got an easy kill on sheik. Can anyone else confirm this? I cannot test it because i have noone else and the CPU in training mode does not want to cooperate lol

https://youtu.be/l0P2rXf7eXQ

I know Sheik has one frame of vulnurability and this wasnt hard at all to perform. If this can happen consistently it'll help us out in that matchup

 

[Ffamran]

Playing For glory and decided to try this out and got an easy kill on sheik. Can anyone else confirm this? I cannot test it because i have noone else and the CPU in training mode does not want to cooperate lol

https://youtu.be/l0P2rXf7eXQ

I know Sheik has one frame of vulnurability and this wasnt hard at all to perform. If this can happen consistently it'll help us out in that matchup

That... I remember reading somewhere that all teleport recoveries like Mewtwo, Palutena, Sheik?, and Zelda's all grab the ledge at a specific frame unlike Fox, Mario, Roy, or ZSS who have different timings depending on how far they are. Probably different for each character, but if you get the timing, then you can hit them when they try to go for the ledge.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Is it just me, or is Falco's usmash horrible? No range even when combined with Falco's atrocious movement, plenty of startup and end lag, and quite weak.

 

[Ffamran]

Is it just me, or is Falco's usmash horrible? No range even when combined with Falco's atrocious movement, plenty of startup and end lag, and quite weak.

Ran an analysis a while back on his Up Smash and other flip kick Up Smashers: Fox, Kirby, Mii Brawler, technically Pikachu, and Yoshi. The rundown is that with Fox and Mii Brawler, it's tied for having the fastest startup at frame 8 followed Pikachu's at frame 10, by Yoshi's at frame 11, and Kirby's at frame 14. Recovery-wise, so end lag, it's around if I remember correctly, Kirby, Pikachu, and Yoshi's where it's below frame 28 to recover while Fox and Mii Brawler's takes around 40-ish frames to recover. Damage-wise, it does 16% total, so that makes it and Fox's sweet-spotted Up Smash the most damaging, but because it's a multi-hit which means people can fall out even from the best-connecting multi-hits like Robin's rapid jab or Lucas's Nair, and it's the last hit that matters for a multi-hit; the last hit only does 12% and having the same knockback as Fox and Yoshi's means little when it's doing 2% to 4% less than theirs. This leads to it killing like 40% later than Fox's and around 20%? later than Yoshi's. So, knockback-wise or power-wise, Falco's at the end while it's something like Fox, Kirby, Mii Brawler, Yoshi, Pikachu, and then Falco. All of them probably kill at least 20% earlier than Falco's which at that point, killing at 130-ish% means Falco just has another option to his Bair, Side Smash, Dtilt, Uair up top, and Nair and Fair at the ledge along with situational Dair and Falco Phantasm spikes. Add like 10% to 15% more percent and Utilt starts killing.

So, what's the point of Falco's Up Smash? It's pretty much a combo finisher and damage-move to the others kill moves. So, early percents of Utilt to Up Smash or D-throw to Up Smash is just what it's used for combo-wise. High active frames also lets Falco abuse it to catch people on the ledge and use it for land traps.

One thing that lead me to analyze flip kick Up Smashers was that Falco and Pikachu don't have any invincibility frames unlike the others. For instance, Fox's feet are invincible during the startup to the end the clean hit of Up Smash, so frames 1-9 while Kirby's feet are invincible for frames 14-19, the entirety of his Up Smash. If we assume Pikachu's tail is a disjoint, then Falco's Up Smash is really unsafe... for almost no reason. I mean, if you look at all the headbutt Up Smashers and even all the headbutt users which adds in two aerials from Bowser and DK, their Uairs, then all of them have I-frames while for flip kick Up Smashers, 2 don't and 1 of them doesn't even have a disjoint to back it up. So, that's questionable considering Falco's the slowest-moving flip kick Up Smashers and even with the high active frames, it's not a strong attack.

There's also another thing: Smash 4 Falco's Up Smash hitbox begins around waist up unlike the others which start lower. Fox's Up Smash starts at either the ground or close to the ground letting him hit low crouches and even people holding the ledge if I remember correctly. Yoshi's also hits higher up since he's tall and he jumps up which lets him clip platforms better than Falco. This came from looking into why Falco couldn't hit Luigi when Luigi was going through his Super Jump Punch landing animation and why Falco couldn't hit Wii Fit Trainer if she crouches which was from a study made in the WFT boards. Animation-wise, Falco looks like he should be hitting lower instead of waist up. Problem is how to fix it since if they just add hitboxes, it could look weird or end up making it faster and maybe more abusive. Imagine Falco with a frame 6 Up Smash. Another thing could be an animation speed change along with a hitbox change so it hits at the same speed while still having a more grounded hitbox. The other thing is you could argue that his Up Smash is meant more for anti-airing which is a valid reason until you note that because without any I-frames or a disjoint, his Up Smash as an anti-air is much riskier and then there's how the other Up Smashes can also function as ground-level options.

 

[BlazingRamen]

Is it just me, or is Falco's usmash horrible? No range even when combined with Falco's atrocious movement, plenty of startup and end lag, and quite weak.

It's best used to catch predicted getups and spotdodges, with it's decent amount of active frames. It tends to be more of a quick damage dealer than an actual kill move. Sweetspot Dtilt kills only like 10% after Usmash lol

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Does Falco Phantasm have invincibility frames in the first half of the move? I've been hit during the first half of the moves duration with the clanking animation showing, but falco doesn't stop moving forward.

 

[Shaya]

recovery moves primarily will always continue to animate even if their hitboxes can clank.
Like jigglypuff dash attack or little mac ftilt.

 

[Ffamran]

Does Falco Phantasm have invincibility frames in the first half of the move? I've been hit during the first half of the moves duration with the clanking animation showing, but falco doesn't stop moving forward.

It's recoiless last I remember. So, it can clank, but it just continues. Both Fox and Falco have this for their Illusion and Phantasm. In the case of Fox, it's more reliable. I'm pretty sure you can hit them if you're doing a multi-hit move like Falco's Up Smash where you'll clank with the first hit and then hit with the second hit which for whatever reason, has a hitbox out even though you recoil. Otherwise, it's either going to just clank and they're free or you hit in front of them and they just dash into a hitbox. Also, something to try and do against Cloud's Blade Beam since you can hit it which causes it to disappear and grab the ledge without getting clipped. Problem is you'll have to time it and if the opponent knows, they could force or bait you into using Phantasm way too far and end up forced to Fire Bird back or be in a position to be edgeguarded.

 

[Colm]

Hey, I'm mainly a falcon play in sm4sh but I do play Falco as a secondary. I was wondering what combo he has and what I should do while playing him. Here is what I know:
Combos:
Low%'s:
Down throw - Nair
Down throw - Fair
Down throw - Dash attack
Down throw - Bair (I know this is posable but not sure how to preform)
All%:
Up throw - Up air
Thats really it. Any help is awesome!

 

[Ffamran]

Hey, I'm mainly a falcon play in sm4sh but I do play Falco as a secondary. I was wondering what combo he has and what I should do while playing him. Here is what I know:
Combos:
Low%'s:
Down throw - Nair
Down throw - Fair
Down throw - Dash attack
Down throw - Bair (I know this is posable but not sure how to preform)
All%:
Up throw - Up air
Thats really it. Any help is awesome!

Please check the stickied threads next time. I'm merging your thread with the gameplay discussion since it's the general discussion and Q&A thread and you're asking abut more general combos rather than specific stuff or approaches like in this thread which I also highly recommend checking out: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-approaches-and-combos-strings.372417/.

When it comes to throws, Falco's generally going to use D-throw at low percents, sometimes F-throw at low percents, and U-throw for pretty much all percents. Problem is that after low percents, they become setups rather than combos. You're pretty much going to have to read DI at that point.

For D-throw to Bair (or Bair in general), you need to pivot, jump, and input Bair. People call this "RAR", "reverse aerial rushing", but I find that too bothersome of a term. Pivoting Falco's Bair is essential in this game not only because he doesn't have a front hitbox like in Brawl and Melee, but the back hitbox is the strong hit like in all games. It's something you should learn not just for Falco, but pretty much all characters; Captain Falcon's Bair for instance is a powerful tool which if you can land, can be a useful kill and edgeguarding tool. All it takes is positioning which for Bairs as they're generally back hits, means you have to face the "wrong" way. Pivoting is easy, walk or run in a direction and move the stick in the opposite direction. For walking, your character will just turn around and walk, but for running, your character will slide a bit before running again. Practice the input since if you can finely input a pivot, you can pivot in the tightest of situations like how Larry Lurr can immediately pivot from the ledge for a Fox Bair or how Nairo's usage of ZSS's pivot Bairs are godly.

If you can get pivot Bair inputs consistently, then I recommend not using dash attack out of D-throw. Dash attack should be your "last resort" if you know your opponent is going to land and tech or they're too low to the ground for a Bair to work. The problem with dash attack is you'll have to deal with the recovery frames, the end lag, after it which is higher than the landing lag of Nair and Bair. If you auto-cancel Nair and Bair, then dash attack's even higher recovery compared to them. Even if you miss with Bair, you can still Ftilt or dash attack to catch them rather than having to deal with dash attack's entire animation, hitbox and no hitbox. Also, if you can get pivot inputs consistently, then I recommend learning to use pivot Nairs and Uairs. Nair has a property that forces characters to be launched where Falco is facing, so if you want to control where they launch, then choose between hitting with front or back hit. Uair's reasoning is covered below.

U-throw generally is used for Uair, but you can use Nair if you want. Fair and Dair won't really work because of the higher startup and Bair won't work because it hits purely behind instead of above like Uair or around and on Falco like Nair. Which part you hit with Uair matters; hitting with the back part can confirm a Bair while hitting with the front part can confirm a Nair or Fair. Of course, you could just Uair again. Remember this: of the flip kick Uair users, Bayonetta, Falco, and Pikachu hit with the back part first while everyone else like Captain Falcon, Kirby, Mario, Pac-Man, and ZSS hit with the front part. That doesn't mean you can't do a back hit Uair with ZSS to setup her Bair, but it's something to note.

F-throw's really low percent stuff. You can get a dash attack and Falco Phantasm from it, but it's more likely they'll DI out or just tech. It's not really useful for setups, but for positioning and pure damage, it's a good throw, especially at higher percents when the lasers on U-throw and B-throw can miss. For U-throw, that's half the total damage; it does 8% total, 4% from the throw and 4% from the laser. For B-throw, you're just missing the 3% laser since the throw does 6%.

Now, non-throw related setups. This is the fun part about playing Falco: you can combo with almost everything and funny enough, most of them are kill moves. Uair was covered as it can setup Nair, Fair, Bair, or another Uair. Nair itself can setup into Fair at times or chain into itself at lower percents. You'll need to fast fall it before the last, fourth hit, though. The video linked has Falco land with the fourth hit, but if you land before it, you can immediately jab; it's an in-game tip: "Standard Air Attack – If you land just before the final attack in Falco's midair combo, you can move straight into a standard combo on the ground. "

For ground moves, Utilt and Dtilt are your launchers. Uair's more of an anti-air since it hits mostly above Falco. At low percents, it can chain into itself and with fast fallers, that means more Utilts can be chained. Just make sure to not overdo them as people can escape after a certain point. Now, if you feel like they are going to escape, but not in the next hit, then try for Up Smash for a finisher. Up Smash can sometimes confirm into itself at really low percents, but it's a done deal when you do 2 Up Smashes in a row at really low percents, but if they all connect, that's free 32%. Dtilt's going to launch diagonally up which means Falco can try for Nair, Uair, Fair, and Bair. Dtilt's also your safest on-shield move meaning it's safe move to poke people. It's not plus on frame advantage and it can't hit anyone in the air, but on the ground, it's a good tool to poke people. Ftilt's going to be your other poke tool and anti-air poke tool since you can angle it unlike Dtilt. Another launcher is Falco's Dair. It's really situational because of how slow it is, but if you manage, especially on an opponent on the ground, it'll launch with enough hit stun that you can followup with it. Even more situational is perfect landing with it which just lowers the landing lag drastically because of how hit lag interacts with landing lag or something, but you're better off perfect landing Nair and Fair which are faster and safer moves.

TL;DR: There is this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXax_0687ok. I don't really recommend cookie cutting at all, but having a visual and seeing what can be done is a good thing. The better thing is integrating and making it your own.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Falco's been confirmed to be changed, just not in what ways. He feels faster on the ground, but I think I'm getting placebo'd. However, running usmash hit easily for me for the first time.

 

[Ffamran]

Moving this discussion to the general discussion thread.

Fox Usmash kill Mario at 106% no rage, Falco Usmash kills Mario at 114% no rage. Just tested.

Its pretty close, but Fox still have the advantage of his sprint that makes his Usmash alot less predictable than Falco.

There's also the fact Fox can setup Up Smash at kill percents from late Nair, fast fall, no last hit Fair, Dair, jab 1 to jab 2, late dash attack?, and I think Ftilt. For Falco, he can setup Up Smash from Utilt at low percents, D-throw on select characters and depending on DI at low percents, and potentially - this needs to be labbed - fast fall, no last hit Nair at kill percents. So, in terms of raw kill power, Falco's close, but in terms of "reliability" and ability to setup his, he's far away.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Moving this discussion to the general discussion thread.

There's also the fact Fox can setup Up Smash at kill percents from late Nair, fast fall, no last hit Fair, Dair, jab 1 to jab 2, late dash attack?, and I think Ftilt. For Falco, he can setup Up Smash from Utilt at low percents, D-throw on select characters and depending on DI at low percents, and potentially fast fall, no last hit Nair at kill percents. So, in terms of raw kill power, Falco's close, but in terms of "reliability" and ability to setup his, he's far away.

On the bright side it has invul now so it is LITERALLY Somersault Shell now, swag and all.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Falco's U-Smash hitboxes do linger for a much longer time than Fox's, allowing him to trap most landings and and ledge getups slightly better.

 

[Jeremi Tschiember]

Also, Falco's Usmash can hit under a platform in stages like battlefield, Fox can't.

It can be pretty sneaky since now its usmash is now faster than Fox, according to frame data in the patch note. And the highest vertical frame of this move does hit with the sweetspot.

 

[Ffamran]

On the bright side it has invul now so it is LITERALLY Somersault Shell now, swag and all.

And this is why this happened:

No? Pretty sure Fox's Up Smash kills at ~100% to Falco's ~120% on Mario. Right now, the only thing it really equals is that they both have I-frames during part of their Up Smash.

Edit: Forgot about this, patch 1.1.4 is now officially the Somersault Shell patch for Falco. Fox has his invincible, anti-air, and kill Guile Flash Kick and now Falco finally has I-frames to match Charlie Nash's 2-hit, anti-air Somersault Shell. Now all we need is a projectile like Sonic Boom.

Would seriously love it if Falco could get a Sonic Boom-style projectile, a high startup, low recovery projectile which technically Melee did ignoring auto-cancel windows, but Brawl didn't and now Falco has a low startup, high recovery projectile, Sonic Scythe - new Up Special, please -, and Moonsault Slash - could replace either Nair or Fair - from Charlie Nash in Smash 5. Also, they could steal something from Leona Heidern for Falco's jab... Seriously, Falco needs a jab 3 with how rapid jab's working out in Smash 4... Oh, and to "fix" Dtilt's disjoint, Ryu's heavy Dtilt, Leona's cr. HK, or something like Captain Falcon's Dtilt would all work to make it look the range it has. Side Smash kind of looks derpy at times for me... Just swinging his arms over like a haymaker... Maybe something more elegant or brutal could work...

Spoiler: Patch wishes

Realistically, the only thing I would want without having to wait for Smash 5 so moves are changed beyond frame data is lower recovery on jab 1 and jab 2, something to fix rapid jab e.g. reduce the transition time from jab 2 to rapid jab or a phantom hit like Fox got in 1.1.0, maybe some base knockback on Ftilt which should also be for other characters with low or no base knockback poke Ftilts like Luigi, Mario, and Samus who just needs a hitbox overhaul on her Ftilt, removal of Fair's landing hit since the animation doesn't fit, it looks cheap, and it's kind of a crutch for newbies in turn for maybe slightly less landing lag like 22 instead of 25 or even 15 since Pikachu's similar Fair has 15 freaking landing frames which was there to cover how electrical moves worked on-shield, but now... anyway, Sonic Boom / Melee Blaster which would drastically lower Falco's recovery on Blaster, but at the cost of higher startup, basically Fire Wolf for Fire Bird since it's really stupid how Falco's Fire Bird is basically Fox's Fire Fox if it traveled less, was a poorly connecting multi-hit, had its charging hits push people out instead of in, smaller hitboxes, but still had the same startup and launch time, and maybe Falco Phantasm to be swapped out with Wolf Flash or something.

The problem with Falco Phantasm to me is that it's really broken on paper. In a series where recovering low, like really low from getting spiked is difficult for all characters compared to recovering from getting launched up, horizontally, and diagonally up, a spike, even if it's weak with that much range is insane. Even with half its range from Melee and Brawl, Falco Phantasm's range is a quarter of Final Destination. No other spike has that much range with the closest being Bayonetta's Down Smash and that has even more startup to balance it out. Falco Phantasm's idea is way too difficult in my opinion to balance out without making it just strictly better than Fox's Fox Illusion which in Brawl, it was. It doesn't help that in each game, Fox Illusion loses damage; in Melee it did 7% like Falco Phantasm, in Brawl it did 4%, and in Smash 4, it does 3% while Falco Phantasm kept its 7% and 6% spike in all games. Halving the hitbox is a way to balance it. Halving it so that Falco Phantasm only spikes for the first half while the second half does say, 2% with set knockback would still make it better than Fox Illusion. The idea is that Fox Illusion has a full hitbox to compensate for its lack of a spike hitbox while Falco Phantasm has a spike hitbox and higher damage. Even then, I still don't think Falco Phantasm is a good idea. Wolf Flash is a way better idea since the spike only happens at the end meaning it has a smaller, less insane spike on paper. The problem with Falco Phantasm now is that compared to all other horizontal recovery moves, it has no hitbox in front or on the character unlike say, Bayonetta's Afterburner Kick, Ike's Quickdraw, the Pits' Arms, or Sheik's Bouncing Fish. This pretty much makes it disadvantaged compared to the others, especially since Falco's animated in such a way where he's tilted so one arm is increasing his vertical hitbox unlike the others who keep a lower profile. Even Ganondorf's Flame Choke despite being a command grab is safer than Falco Phantasm since it has a hitbox in front of Ganondorf.

The problem with swapping out Falco Phantasm for Wolf Flash is how people would feel that a character basically "has a legalized custom" or how a character had an entire overhaul to their move. Granted, they could just make it function like Wolf Flash; Falco Phantasm only spikes where Falco reappears / stops while the rest of it only does like 2%. Still, that's kind of an overhaul to how the move works even if it's better and less broken on paper for all modes.

Falco's U-Smash hitboxes do linger for a much longer time than Fox's, allowing him to trap most landings and and ledge getups slightly better.

Hence, anti-air. Falco's Up Smash seems more like a defensive option to Fox's more offensive option. Fox can still anti-air with his Up Smash, but he needs to time it a bit more carefully since he doesn't have his low recovery with Up Smash like in Melee and Brawl.

Also, Falco's Usmash can hit under a platform in stages like battlefield, Fox can't.

It can be pretty sneaky since now its usmash is now faster than Fox, according to frame data in the patch note. And the highest vertical frame of this move does hit with the sweetspot.

Huh, guess that's one thing Yoshi one-ups on Fox... Seriously, Yoshi's Up Smash covers like 2/3's of Battlefield's platforms. It's freaking annoying since he has low recovery on his Up Smash...

Falco's starts just 1 frame faster. Not that big of a deal. It's also not black and white since at frame 7 and frame 8 for Fox, their hitboxes are ground-level. Because the first hit was changed to not hit on Battlefield's lower platforms, it's technically a frame ~14 hit since that's maybe when the second hit reaches the top. Granted, since people think it'll just whiff when the first hit just passes by, they might drop their shield. At the same time, Utilt is probably safer since both hits can connect.

 

[Jeremi Tschiember]

Falco's starts just 1 frame faster. Not that big of a deal. It's also not black and white since at frame 7 and frame 8 for Fox, their hitboxes are ground-level. Because the first hit was changed to not hit on Battlefield's lower platforms, it's technically a frame ~14 hit since that's maybe when the second hit reaches the top. Granted, since people think it'll just whiff when the first hit just passes by, they might drop their shield. At the same time, Utilt is probably safer since both hits can connect.

I just played around it against CPUs, I did hit AND KOed them when they were on the Battlefield platforms, at around 120%. I would certainly not have KOed them with a Utilt. I'd say they kind of rotated the hitbox so Falco could land a Usmash on grounded opponents.
To be honest I cant tell if the KBG differs depending which frame it hits. But hitting someone with a Usmash on a platform is certainly less effective than hitting on the ground, since you only hit with the second hit of the move. Just gotta make sure he is high enough in %.

Excuse my vagueness, im pretty newbie when it comes to smash technical language

 

[Jeremi Tschiember]

I am having lots of trouble with Dash -->(pivot?) -->Jump--> B-air, I've seen plenty of people doing it, instant, like it was cake, but I can't find anything to tell me how they do it.

Is it a normal rotation as fast as I can? or is it some kind of technic that I have never heard of?

Any tips?

Thank you.

 

[SilverQuik24]

I am having lots of trouble with Dash -->(pivot?) -->Jump--> B-air, I've seen plenty of people doing it, instant, like it was cake, but I can't find anything to tell me how they do it.

Is it a normal rotation as fast as I can? or is it some kind of technic that I have never heard of?

Any tips?

Thank you.

Nothing too fancy. Dash->flick the stick the opposite way then short hop immediately. Then fastfall your bair. If you need some more help we gotchu. The bair wall is probably his best neutral game asset as well as a kill move

 

[Jeremi Tschiember]

Thx for clarifying, good to know that I just have to practice now.

 

[SilverQuik24]

Thx for clarifying, good to know that I just have to practice now.

Yep. If you want some video help just look up RAR (reverse aerial rush) which is what this technique is