Fabulous Empire: The Marth and Lucina Game Play Coalition

[Shaya]

You're looking for the dash in full hop retreating fair, it's our staple aggressive tool in Brawl and it's perfectly the same (albeit with a bit more competition in not getting punished for it, but it's still safe done properly, 100%). Obviously allowing us all the room/time required to react to the opponent's actions.

More I play with dash breaker the more I'm feeling Marth as a high tier/top tier. It's.... so good; like it must be one of the best moves in the game, hands down. Another usage I found with it, when you use it on the ground it won't push you off the ledge (as you know), however, remember how the fully charged version has an extra sweep of hitboxes?
This fully charged hitbox hits off stage below us and about 1.5 swords length in front of us. It's like hyper down tilt type of edge guarding.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think this move will be key in establishing momentum and control vs the various current top tiers such as sonic, greninja, sheik, ect. Basically the mobile characters that are great at abusing momentum and kind of wait for marth to do something

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I think another core aspect of the lunching shield breaker is not only are you moving forward, that hitbox stays out for DAYS. Dropping onto someone who whiffed a move while you're around Fast Fall Fair height, you can instead lunge shield break and simultaneously punish and push them at LEAST halfway across the stage

 

[Xisin]

Effortless Blade is good but at higher percents I found my opponents vectoring out fairly easily. I think regular Dancing Blade may be the standard. Heavy Blade is trash. I don't like easy counter either.

I don't think we should dismiss heavy blade, I've used it to a degree of success, I think of it as another ko move, if it tips on the first swing it hurts pretty bad, and it comes out fairly fast. I simply use it as another aerial, also against heaviers you can go up variation x2 at 0% for a large chunk of change. SH HB 1,2 works and can possibly serve us as double fair, I'm not sure yet. It's used differently than the other two dbs but it still can be used as a side b punish. I'm still playing with it... so far my favorite variation is light blades.

I'll be testing vs humans tonight and see how it works out.

 

[Freelance Spy]

possibly serve us as double fair, I'm not sure yet.

I'll be testing vs humans tonight and see how it works out.

It really won't; given the lack of aerial mobility in any direction we want is what made double fair good. It could be alright but it's generally a better option to use fast, non punishable moves. We don't need double fair anymore, Marth is different now.

Working well on heavies might actually be HDB's only use.

 

[obscurica]

I need somebody with better tech and skill on-hand to verify something for me: there seems to be notable frame differences between Lucina and Marth's Dashing Assault, as well as hitbox differences. Marth's feels slower in windup and execution, while going much farther out from his hurtbox; Lucina's feels quicker, but the hitbox seems to overlap with her hurtbox.

Dashing Assault's got all sorts of weird edge cases too. If you're too close up against the opponent, it can whiff entirely on both, but I think it's "easier" to have the hitbox completely go off-target on Marth. Lucina's does less damage per-instance (2% vs Marth's 3% at max range, 5-6% vs Marth's flat 6% up close), but she also benefits a lot more from using it up close -- it puts both of them behind the opponent, and messes up Marth's spacing, whereas Lucina can instantly transition into her next attack.

I have a sneaking suspicion her recovery from Dashing Assault's also slightly faster. Not totally sure. Marth seems to have a three-beat recovery from it, to Lucina's one or two.

But I hasten to those that all of these are merely eyeball observations, thus the request for additional help.

My lack of skill's also making combo-testing irritating. fthrow+uspecial(2) is a two-hit true combo for Lucina, doing a flat 16%, and I've gotten it to repeat up to ~60%. At first glance, I don't think Marth can get Crescent Strike to tip with the combo, but my input's insufficiently precise to be absolutely certain.

 

[Mono.]

I think what will set us apart and make us dangerous in the metagame is how well we can break our opponent's shields. I have been trying to come up with some reliable shield breaker setups but to not much success. The best I can do is condition opponents to shield with fair and mix it up with a shield breaker and do retreating sh shield breakers for the running shield approach but that's it.

 

[grandmaster192]

Is anyone else having trouble getting Marth's dancing blade to connect in directions that aren't up? I can get Lucina's to work but not Marth's.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Up is the best version anyway. Tipper increases the effect of vectoring. Its not you. Its the combat engine itself

 

[Shaya]

Apparently the final forward strike is meant to kill, according to those hints it gives.
Could be why he made it so god damn hard to combo into it.

Although even then, I don't think it's saving the day by getting the clutch KO. Completely fresh, people spot dodging and getting hit by the last one used to be a sure-fire way of killing someone on a revenge, but it doesn't seem to be sending you much of anywhere at 100%ish near the ledge.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Are you talking about Marth or Lucina? Because tipped side4 kills another Marth from the ledge of FD at 90% with no rage/VI. Good luck getting a tipper on it though - sourspot kills at 121% in the same scenario. Either way it's near impossible to combo into it from the other three hits unless your opponent is trying to CC or asleep, the first hit pops them up too high to land the second side hit. Not to mention you step too far forward on the fourth hit to land a tipper unless the opponent is VIing straight out, and even then I'm not sure.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

My setup is:

Dash breaker / assault dash / OP breaker of awesomeness
Regular dancing blade
Dolphin Jump
Regular counter

Still deciding between iai counter and the regular. Given that dolphin jump gets rid of dolphin slash as a killer, I'm thinking of just keeping the regular counter.

 

[Remzi]

Right now I'm at 3121 aka:

Assault Dash
Dancing Blade
Crescent Slash
Counter

Crescent Slash is absolutely incredible. You can combo into it from pretty much anything, and it kills early. Fthrow, Dtilt, Fair, Nair, and Bair all combo into it in some form. Off of Fthrow, you may have to jump to account for an upwards vector, but you can potentially a kill off an grab as early as 70-80%. Also, the helpless state from crescent slash isn't nearly as restricting on your aerial mobility as regular dolphin slash is. Because of this, you can use crescent slash to edgeguard aggressively and net really, really early kills. You can actually Crescent Slash from the edge of the stage and still drift your way back to the ledge. And if you're in the air, when you crescent slash, you can edge guard even further out.

The downsides are:

Much worse vertical recovery
Lose DS's OoS capabilities

IMO, it's still worth it. Being able to create and extend combos, and kill MUCH earlier than normal, makes Marth/Lucina very dangerous in this game. Just be careful going low for edgeguards, and prepare to adjust for a slightly slower OoS game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Basically you are altering their metagame with this set-up. Experimentation is needed but if you are netting results then thats important and worth talking about/documenting.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah crescent slash is coolish. But really, recovery and ability to go off stage deeper is likely more rewarding. I found people were able to avoid crescent follow ups just by being aware of it (vectoring up basically kills it).

I also really haven't been using dolphin slash OoS like, at all. Shield drop actions are just much faster in this, and DS doesn't have the range it seems to just freely DP everything that comes near it. Because of this I think Dolphin Jump may just be flat out better for us too. You basically won't ever get gimped with it, and you can follow very very very deep against any person you hit off stage. Also lets you use assault dash in recovery a bit more liberally.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I agree with Shaya. DS as an OoS option does not seem particularly effective anymore (range on startup is awful why you do this to me Sakurai) and attempts to utilize Crescent Slash for combos generally led to my opponents simply adapting, which left me with a weaker recovery and offstage game.

Side note, usmash is nuts on both characters. The side hitboxes are huge. Marth's side hitboxes knock the opponent into the primary hitboxes so it's a solid option for him as opposed to previous difficulties in landing the tipper on it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

*leans in closely my chin resting on my entwined fingers*

Brothers...it appears we are closing in on an optimal load out for Marth

This development is...most pleasing.

*leans back in my chair smirking

 

[Remzi]

Yeah crescent slash is coolish. But really, recovery and ability to go off stage deeper is likely more rewarding. I found people were able to avoid crescent follow ups just by being aware of it (vectoring up basically kills it).

I also really haven't been using dolphin slash OoS like, at all. Shield drop actions are just much faster in this, and DS doesn't have the range it seems to just freely DP everything that comes near it. Because of this I think Dolphin Jump may just be flat out better for us too. You basically won't ever get gimped with it, and you can follow very very very deep against any person you hit off stage. Also lets you use assault dash in recovery a bit more liberally.

Why do you find shield drop actions to be more effective? Is there even less shield stun in this game? It feels similar to Brawl in that regard

 

[Shaya]

Shield drops faster in this, hence power shields are easier. DS doesn't seem to have similar reach to our jab, down tilt or forward tilt, and otherwise dancing blade should be the go to punish.

Shielding a move in this is still very good, especially if you're Marth. Shield, walk forward a little, shield again, you know your range; this is how we use down tilt to mess people up on the ground.

If someone sits down and figures out what things we can dolphin slash out of reliably (i.e. multi hits on shield or as a combo breaker of jabs?) then I'll likely have that move in my arsenal quite often. Eh, I may still even be comfortable taking it on because it is useful as a DP in the real sense of it (people coming towards the ground anti-air that can't be beaten).

 

[Remzi]

Shield drops faster in this, hence power shields are easier. DS doesn't seem to have similar reach to our jab, down tilt or forward tilt, and otherwise dancing blade should be the go to punish.

Shielding a move in this is still very good, especially if you're Marth. Shield, walk forward a little, shield again, you know your range; this is how we use down tilt to mess people up on the ground.

If someone sits down and figures out what things we can dolphin slash out of reliably (i.e. multi hits on shield or as a combo breaker of jabs?) then I'll likely have that move in my arsenal quite often. Eh, I may still even be comfortable taking it on because it is useful as a DP in the real sense of it (people coming towards the ground anti-air that can't be beaten).

Shield drop is FASTER than 7 frames now? How fast are we talking?

 

[Shaya]

God knows. I should properly test it, but that seems to be general consensus.

Try shield drop reshield, there definitely is almost no noticeable "drop" of the shield in this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DPing out of multihit moves is good especially on block, so Dolphin Slash still has a use.

That said I'm a fan of how Dolphin Jump makes you basically ungimpable and makes the pair super human edgeguarding machines.

 

[Remzi]

God knows. I should properly test it, but that seems to be general consensus.

Try shield drop reshield, there definitely is almost no noticeable "drop" of the shield in this.

Its a shame how close this game is to coming with an actual frame advance feature. I can't test it accurately but I feel like its 7 frames, still. Please test it when you can! I'm very curious.

DPing out of multihit moves is good especially on block, so Dolphin Slash still has a use.

That said I'm a fan of how Dolphin Jump makes you basically ungimpable and makes the pair super human edgeguarding machines.

As Shaya said earlier, it's really a shame that our best customizations all belong to the same two moves. I guess too many good moves is a good problem to have, but damn if picking your load out isn't tough.

 

[Shaya]

I feel like you could go into a tournament set with regular shield breaker first, then switch it to dash assault and completely mess with anyone who's trying to adapt to you.

Now that I've become comfortable with full hop forward air in this game, I'm starting to really not feel the nerf-city anymore; other than the damage cut. The only nerf it got in the air was 3 frames extra lag (very minor), but it looks like the hitboxes stay out an extra frame or two. Still basically godlike arc that can't be outspaced when used properly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly in tourney I did really well even with SH Fairs and just DIing back. no one could punish. Also SH Bair is super good and feels even better then SH fair. Faster and easier to control.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Honestly in tourney I did really well even with SH Fairs and just DIing back. no one could punish. Also SH Bair is super good and feels even better then SH fair. Faster and easier to control.

Yeah, but you'd want to be careful about staling it since bair is our primary edge-guard now.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I've been beetling so many early kills with Assault Dash x Dolphin Jump setup. Offstage game is incredible with Dolphin Jump.

 

[Remzi]

So, pretty big news on the custom moves front (unless it's already been stated), but grab release > sweet spot Crescent Slash is a thing. Works on almost every character that we air release. Notable "high tiers" that this works on are Ness and Yoshi.

For Wario, the CS won't sweetspot, leaving you vulnerable. For Jiggs, it'll whiff completely. I've managed to make it work by jumping backwards before CSing but at that point I'm not certain whether or not she can dodge out of it.

Still, really good stuff, and it'll work on almost all the cast if we grab them at the ledge (so their feet are dangling).

On that note, we really need to start testing other possible grab release combos, there seems to be a decent amount of possibilities. Especially on Wario.

 

[Shaya]

It's hitting frame 8. Full Animation is 38 frames (I have "Free to act" running for 3 frames before it loops).

Tipper hits still produce more hit lag. Seems less pronounced though; it was 4 frames difference in Brawl, here it's only 2.

So fair is -24 to -21? on shields tippered [*******]. I'm not sure if this is universal, but Little Mac's grab at least seems to be 9 frames start up.

******* ESTIMATES/GUESTIMATES/NOT 100%/DONTTAKEASGOSPEL *******

I'm going to try to figure out if fair auto cancels/what frame it does, then I can figure out the optimal (if it exists) short hop forward air. Otherwise yeah, everyone playing Marth and Lucina should be full hop fairing.

Something of note though that does apply to Lucina is... a bit of disappointment I suppose? I was finding that well spaced full hop fair on Lucina just wasn't safe enough on shield like it is for Marth; Dark Pit's dash attack freely covers it out of a shield drop in a way I cannot avoid as Lucina, but I'm perfectly safe (never/rarely getting punished) doing it as Marth. Really odd, it should only be a couple of frames difference.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Test Bair as well. I honestly like it more than fair.

 

[Shaya]

Down Tilt is -10 untippered.
Either shielding takes 2 frames in this game (compared to one) or shielding from a crouch takes an extra frame to stand up for it (possible, considering how I guess "no thinking at all" crouching into shield was for power shields).

Either way shield drop reshield is 8 frames in this; so it is actually laggier than in Brawl.

 

[Shaya]

Yep
Shielding is 1 frame start up in this game.
Cool.

Shield Active: 2
Shield Drop: 7

Grab: 7
Spot Dodge: 26
Back/Forward Roll: 30 [wow that got nerfed by A LOT since E3]

Down Tilt
Start: 7
End: 23

Jab:
Start: 5
End: 29

 

[KP12]

Hello all, I am trying to improve at smash, because I've been playing Marth for years and I still feel there is a lot to his tools that I'm not utilizing correctly. Could someone please explain to me what moves would potentially be good for footsies and what are good mix-ups besides "attack or grab." If I can get a better comprehension on how this game competitively flows, I feel like I'll be able to make a better contribution to forums than just asking for advice. Thanks for your time.

 

[Locuan]

Hello all, I am trying to improve at smash, because I've been playing Marth for years and I still feel there is a lot to his tools that I'm not utilizing correctly. Could someone please explain to me what moves would potentially be good for footsies and what are good mix-ups besides "attack or grab." If I can get a better comprehension on how this game competitively flows, I feel like I'll be able to make a better contribution to forums than just asking for advice. Thanks for your time.

Of course! I like how your post is even stated. You do not see a lot of people use the term footsies in the Smash community. It's awesome to see it used.

Anyways, I play Lucina in Smash 4, Marth in Melee. If you are facing an opponent that has no projectiles then I prefer approaching cautiously and keeping the opponent at tipper range of my jab and down-tilt. The distance that I will be away from them is mainly close enough to threaten with those moves, but far enough not to exactly hit. Well you used the term footsies so I'm pretty sure you could determine that distance. Anyways, if the opponent decides to rush in you can simply f-tilt or jab and reset. Likewise, d-tilt can poke the opponents feet once the shield starts decreasing in size. If the opponent jumps you can u-tilt. If the opponent rolls away from you, you can dash grab. They roll into you or behind you, you can grab or d-smash, tilt in the opposing direction. Being at that range gives you all those options and of course the option of smash attacks. However, I do not use smash attacks unless otherwise necessary since they lag quite a bit and are punishable. You could also do aerials, but tilts would be the safer option.

Now it gets trickier if the opponent has projectiles. Think of Ryu in SF. Those characters will spam projectiles to see if you are weak to them. If you are, there's no reason for them to stop right? They will keep doing them to force you to either block, jump or dodge, and then punish accordingly. Well, Marth and Lucina both have the ability to cancel out projectiles with their jabs, f-airs, and f-tilt if I'm not mistaken. So that adds another layer to the various Yomi that can happen during this stage. Try to cancel out their projectiles while slowly getting in range. Once you are you can do what I said in the above paragraph. Of course, this will reset and repeat itself so you have to be patient. If you have any more questions regarding facing characters with projectiles let me know. My main sparring partner in Melee was a Samus player, and in Smash 4 a Link player so I'm rather used to these types of match ups.

Now the other very important aspect regarding this game is forcing your opponent to either shield, block, or roll. If you can get your opponent to do that then predict where they will be and tech chase accordingly. If you want to ask anything else let me know. I am not the most knowledgeable but I will try! I know I probably did not cover everything, or everything you would like to know.

edit: I forgot to mention that if you want to poke shields from the top (which adds another layer for mixups) you can perform a spaced aerial going backwards to conserve spacing. I like using n-airs due to the two hits.

edit 2: I had a typo, I said that, I do not see people use footsies in the smash community. What I meant was not a lot of people use the term footsies in the community.

 

[KP12]

Of course! I like how your post is even stated. You do not see a lot of people use footsies in the Smash community. It's awesome to see it used.

Anyways, I play Lucina in Smash 4, Marth in Melee. If you are facing an opponent that has no projectiles then I prefer approaching cautiously and keeping the opponent at tipper range of my jab and down-tilt. The distance that I will be away from them is mainly close enough to threaten with those moves, but far enough not to exactly hit. Well you used the term footsies so I'm pretty sure you could determine that distance. Anyways, if the opponent decides to rush in you can simply f-tilt or jab and reset. Likewise, d-tilt can poke the opponents feet once the shield starts decreasing in size. If the opponent jumps you can u-tilt. If the opponent rolls away from you, you can dash grab. They roll into you or behind you, you can grab or d-smash, tilt in the opposing direction. Being at that range gives you all those options and of course the option of smash attacks. However, I do not use smash attacks unless otherwise necessary since they lag quite a bit and are punishable. You could also do aerials, but tilts would be the safer option.

Now it gets trickier if the opponent has projectiles. Think of Ryu in SF. Those characters will spam projectiles to see if you are weak to them. If you are, there's no reason for them to stop right? They will keep doing them to force you to either block, jump or dodge, and then punish accordingly. Well, Marth and Lucina both have the ability to cancel out projectiles with their jabs, f-airs, and f-tilt if I'm not mistaken. So that adds another layer to the various Yomi that can happen during this stage. Try to cancel out their projectiles while slowly getting in range. Once you are you can do what I said in the above paragraph. Of course, this will reset and repeat itself so you have to be patient. If you have any more questions regarding facing characters with projectiles let me know. My main sparring partner in Melee was a Samus player, and in Smash 4 a Link player so I'm rather used to these types of match ups.

Now the other very important aspect regarding this game is forcing your opponent to either shield, block, or roll. If you can get your opponent to do that then then predict where they will be and tech chase accordingly. If you want to ask anything else let me know. I am not the most knowledgeable but I will try! I know I probably did not cover everything, or everything you would like to know.

edit: I forgot to mention that if you want to poke shields from the top (which adds another layer for mixups) you can perform a spaced aerial going backwards to conserve spacing. I like using n-airs due to the two hits.

Holy cow, thanks for all the help! This does help explain a lot at what I should be doing while in the neutral game, which I was very curious about. For me, neutral game was mainly poke with d-tilt and abuse f-air It seems that Marth and Lucina are supposed to be played as much more patiently and defensively(?) than I thought, but that's good because I actually prefer playing that way. I'm surprised at how much better the tilts are regarded compared to the airs for neutral game, I assume while the airs are all really good, they're mainly for combos and edge guarding, with the exception of fair possibly. I do need to utilize using jab and the others to cancel projectiles, I just need to find which projectiles that won't work against, like Zelda's f-b I'm guessing. I am liking how this style seems to be played, it reminds me of how Chun Li is in street fighter. I just really need to get a good sense of what to do and when to do it, but that's fighting games in general. Thanks again for the help!

 

[Locuan]

It seems that Marth and Lucina are supposed to be played as much more patiently and defensively(?) than I thought, but that's good because I actually prefer playing that way.

Patiently and defensively, yes. Although, that does not necessarily mean slowly. It could be incredibly fast if done right. The best way to learn that would be watching Melee videos. Why? Because it seems counter intuitive. Normally, one thinks Melee and we think hyper - aggressiveness. In reality, both players are defensive just in a different manner. For example, the neutral game in Melee goes by in a blink of the eye. Since there are true combos in Melee then it seems even more so that the game is aggressive. Yet, at every point high competitive opponents are both trying to bypass the others neutral game and capitalize heavily on it (combos).

If you want, as an exercise watch this match: Shiz(Falco) vs M2K(Marth) and try to figure out the moments were the neutral game occurred and when the opponents read each others mistakes. I like to think of it this way. In low level play the mentality is anything goes. In high level play Newton's third law of motion applies, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I do need to utilize using jab and the others to cancel projectiles, I just need to find which projectiles that won't work against, like Zelda's f-b I'm guessing.

Just remember that Link's bombs will blow up if you jab them anyways D:

Thanks again for the help!

No problem!

 

[Shaya]

Isn't this beautiful with every possible meaning?

Such lunge, very reach.
Much transcended, wow.

 

[InfinityCollision]

delicious lingering hitboxes

 

[Locuan]

I compiled some of the frame data that has been posted in the thread unto an excel table. This is what we know so far:
Credit to @ Shaya for basically all of that.
Any mistakes or corrections let me know.

Spoiler

 

[Shaya]

MOVE | Hitbox | End | Auto Cancel | Landing Lag | DMG1 | Hit Lag | DMG2 | Hit Lag | |
Fair | 6 – 9~ | 37 | 36 | 18 | 7 | 4 | 10 | 10 | |
Uair | 5 – 9~ | 44 | 36 – 38 | 15 | 9 | 4 | 12 | 11 | |
Bair | 7 – 10~ | 39 | 30 | 19 | 9 | 4 | 12 | 11 | |
Nair1 | 6 | 50 | 49 | 15 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 6 | |
Nair2 | 15 | 50 | 49 | 15 | 6 | 4 | 8 | 9 | |
Dair | 9 – 12~ | 59 | - | 28 | 11 | 5 | 13 | 11 | 14 | 9

So lots of "open ended" things here. I haven't perfectly tested the length of time the hitboxes are out for. Hence ~
The auto cancel on uair is between frame 36 to 38, I wasn't going to try to **** around with numerous more tries to get the "perfect jump" to land on frame 37 to see if it auto cancels, so ****.
Either way, it looks like its designed not to really auto cancel, but seems to be primed to do so if you're holding off uairing out of your jump squat for a little while longer (I would say timed to be relevant to battle field platforms + I guess a degree of leeway in his frame trapping air dodges or something).

I didn't test the auto cancel on dair yet.

Back air auto cancel follows the formula of "landing lag + end of hitbox = auto cancel". So, no special omega frame advantage gained by auto cancelling (it's adding 4 frames landing lag extra too it as well). Still, no reason to scoff at 10 frames of freedom. It'll come in handy.

Neutral air and forward air don't seem to have any auto cancels. Forward air definitely. Neutral air, I'm pretty sure. Hence 36 and 49 on their auto cancels means that's the frame the game states "auto cancelled on the next frame".