Fabulous Empire: The Marth and Lucina Game Play Coalition

[Raziek]

Elfire.

*narrows eyes*

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah rapid jabs, not usually the 1 2 jabs before that. But super important: we all know Falco's jab is amazing but you can up B him right before he starts his rapid jab.

I can imagine up B works on Mario Bros. uptilts but it wouldn't be smart because it might put us too high to be able to hit them. I would counter or up air which you may be able to do. Up air is nice because that leads into <insert falling up air combo here>

 

[eshu125]

yeah up-air gets out of u-tilt combos, but up-b surely does not. Only up-b if you want to get punished even more

 

[Shaya]

*narrows eyes*

All the Robins be wanting to get their dash grabs or up smashes, and BANG up-b.

 

[Locuan]

@ Shaya what @ Raziek meant was that he was narrowing his eyes menacingly at you because it's not elfire, it's ARC-fire.

 

[Shaya]

El fire is a much better name.
*whoops*

 

[Antonykun]

El fire is a much better name.
*whoops*

I prefer calling it Swag fire because of the glorious pose.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm wondering if Marth's tipper and non-tipper hitlag modifiers are the same as they were in Brawl? If so, then there are less freeze frames since he does less damage.

 

[Xisin]

For those that have complained about getting early dbs on sheiks % (way earlier in the thread) Something that actually works and combos is this: Dancing blade start up (red) -> Blue -> Green -> Red/Blue (blue is easier but red works.). This hits sheik reliablely until solid blues start working reliable at 25%ish. It registers combo in training mode too.

 

[Vipermoon]

For those that have complained about getting early dbs on sheiks % (way earlier in the thread) Something that actually works and combos is this: Dancing blade start up (red) -> Blue -> Green -> Red. This hits sheik reliablely until solid blues start working reliable at 25%ish. It registers combo in training mode too.

That's great thanks! My friend that I practice with mains Sheik.

I'd like to share on spacies (Fox, Falco), dancing blade up will usually combo into the 4th tipper during early kill percents for it.

 

[Macchiato]

I'd like to share this quote, especially the last paragraph

I don't think they're bottom. Their biggest issues are high commitment for low return outside of smashes(which are high risk/reward) and MUs that are generally 50/50's and losses to high tiers across the board. They can do fine given a high skill level but they just don't beat anyone outright which makes playing them an uphill climb for your entire tournament career.

I like crescent custom a lot, even though I kill myself far too often.

I haven't given up on Lucina yet, and I think a breakthrough will probably reveal itself in close ranged ground fighting rather than the aerial spacing Marth was used to, but I don't have anything worth mentioning yet. Lucina/Marth are two characters that could REALLY profit from RTAC if they could use it, but alas...

I think we're doing the wrong approach to Lucina's meta and we're trying to make her work like Marth too much. Due to having no tipper, she has a better close combat game. I think we should look at Lucina at a different perspective. Take this for example. In Melee, Dr. Mario and Mario have the same moves but alas their playstyles are different. I really think Lucina has potential.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I will tell you this straight up.

If you approach Lucina thinking she is "better" up close. You are in for a rude awakening.

I mean literally when you play you will be punished SEVERELY for hitting buttons in the wrong situations.

 

[Macchiato]

I will tell you this straight up.

If you approach Lucina thinking she is "better" up close. You are in for a rude awakening.

I mean literally when you play you will be punished SEVERELY for hitting buttons in the wrong situations.

Yes I know but what my point is that, I think her meta will be different than Marth. Those small differences will have a big change in their meta games. I just think that Lucina has much more potential then how she's being used atm.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm in the opposite camp. I think their meta is exactly the same but neither side is doing it correctly.

For example...spacing with aerials.

That is NOT a thing with either one of them. They are both bad at it.

 

[Macchiato]

I'm in the opposite camp. I think their meta is exactly the same but neither side is doing it correctly.

For example...spacing with aerials.

That is NOT a thing with either one of them. They are both bad at it.

I think that the fact that Marth fishes for tippers and his moves are safer on shield seperate them. Right now the only things I can think of that Lucina's is better is dancing blade, hurtbox, and Usmash. I truely think that both of their metas are wrong at the moment and that in the future both of their metas will be different.

 

[Vipermoon]

I think that the fact that Marth fishes for tippers and his moves are safer on shield seperate them. Right now the only things I can think of that Lucina's is better is dancing blade, hurtbox, and Usmash. I truely think that both of their metas are wrong at the moment and that in the future both of their metas will be different.

Her Upsmash is barely stronger than Marth's sour while Marth's tipper upsmash could be the strongest up smash in the game (maybe). I'll give Lucina the Fsmash that thing is so strong it's nearly directly in between non tipper and tipper for Marth. But then again, tipper Fsmash is soooo tasty.

I think I'll give her dancing blade as well because with Marth only specific characters (like Fox/Falco) can combo into the tipper up 4 at kill percents (edit: unless you only hit most characters with just up 3 and 4 - 1 and 2 must whiff, then you get the tipper at kill percents on much of the cast) and the only way to get side 4 tipper is if you do it at the ledge (where the ledge stops marth from moving as far in the 4th hit)

 

[Macchiato]

Her Upsmash is barely stronger than Marth's sour while Marth's tipper upsmash could be the strongest up smash in the game (maybe). I'll give Lucina the Fsmash that thing is so strong it's nearly directly in between non tipper and tipper for Marth. But then again, tipper Fsmash is soooo tasty.

I think I'll give her dancing blade as well because with Marth only specific characters (like Fox/Falco) can combo into the tipper up 4 at kill percents and the only way to get side 4 tipper is if you do it at the ledge (where the ledge stops marth from moving as far in the 4th hit)

I tested it, Lucina's Usmash kills ten percent earlier than Marth's Sourspot.

But yeah my point is that I don't think they should be played the same and their meta games are different due to their different mechanics. But only time will tell

 

[Vipermoon]

REJOICE EMIYA SHIROU
For we are frame data
View attachment 28316

Action | Active | End
Short Hop | 6 – 20 | 41
Full Hop | 6 – 30 | 61
Roll | 4 – 20 | 30
Spot Dodge | 3 – 19 | 26
Shielding | 2 - 11 | 18
Grab | 7 | 29
Landing | - | 4
Dash | | 16

Special | Active | End | Note
Shield Breaker | 19 | 52 |
Dolphin Slash | 5 | 23 | Invincible 4-6
Counter | 5 – 25? | 60 |

Dancing Blade | Forward | Upward | Down | End
First | 7 | - | - | 45
Second | 8 | 7 | - | 38
Third | 6 | 9 | 8 | 43
Fourth | 13 | 11 | 14 – 40 | 55 / 50 / 72

Aerial | Active | End | Landing | Auto Cancel | Note
Forward | 6 – 9 | 37 | 18 | 36 |
Upward | 5 – 9 | 44 | 15 | 36 | AC pre-move
Backward | 7 – 10 | 39 | 19 | 30 |
Downward | 9 | 59 | 28 | 59 |
Neutral 1 | 6 | 50 | 15 | 49 | AC pre-move
Neutral 2 | 15 | 50 | 15 | 49 |

Attack | Active | End | Note
Downward Tilt | 7 | 23 |
Upward Tilt | 6 – 12 | 42 |
Forward Tilt | 8 – 11 | 39 |
Jab 1 | 5 – 7 | 29 |
Jab 2 | 5 – 8 | 30 | Earliest: 21?
Dash Attack | 13 – 15 | 49 |
Upward Smash | 13~ | 58 | Including feet hitbox
Forward Smash | 9 – 12 | 51 |
Downward Smash | 6~ / 21~ | 64

Shaya, are the end lags here all IASA reportings? I noticed there are some A moves with IASA and I want to make sure what we have here is already IASA (dtilt obviously is). Do you know which attacks have IASA and which don't?

Thanks

EDIT:

I tested it, Lucina's Usmash kills ten percent earlier than Marth's Sourspot.

But yeah my point is that I don't think they should be played the same and their meta games are different due to their different mechanics. But only time will tell

Wow that was fast. It always seemed like 5-8% to me so that's pretty cool.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think anyone's sat down to figure out how long all these animations are, nor has anyone dumped animation data.
So yeah, they're all IASAs.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't think anyone's sat down to figure out how long all these animations are, nor has anyone dumped animation data.
So yeah, they're all IASAs.

Oh okay. Thanks.

 

[Macchiato]

I think they are close ranged fighters. First, what I mean by "close ranged". As it stands currently, neither are good up close. They simply don't have the frame data to let them play up close without getting punished for literally everything. At the end of the day regardless of your character you want to maximize your spacing. Despite distributed damage on her sword, Lucina wants to be in the same position as Marth, it's just that he is rewarded far greater for it.

 

[Vipermoon]

| Active | End | Invincibility | Invincibility (in the air)
Counter | 5 – 25 | 60 | |
Easy Counter | 5 – 30 | 59 | |
Counter Attack | 24~ | 51 | 1 – 23 |
Iai Counter | 3 – 15~ | 55 | |
Iai Attack | 14~ | 43 | 1 – 13 |

Dolphin Slash | 5~ | 23 | 4 – 6 | 1 – 4
Crescent Slash | 9~ | 36 | 8 – 10 | 1 – 10
Dolphin Jump | 0 | 43 | 11 – 13 | 1 – 10

| Active | End | End (ground)
Heavy Blade | 11 – 14 | 39 | 55
Dancing Blade | 7~ | 33 | 45

Shield Breaker | 19~ | 52
Storm Thrust | 19 – 37 | 67
Dash Assault | 19 – 39 | 65

Hi Shaya I used Easy Counter and it seems to have way more end lag than you show. Like at least 65 total frames. What do you think?

 

[Shaya]

Bizarre?
I always found it weird it ends 1 frame faster than regular counter. Maybe it got altered a little.

 

[Vipermoon]

Bizarre?
I always found it weird it ends 1 frame faster than regular counter. Maybe it got altered a little.

If what it feels like is true then this is very sad because it only counters 5 frames longer and does almost half the damage scaling.

But I doubt it was altered in a patch since Sakurai said he wasn't altering customs and that move is already bad.

 

[Shaya]

Customs have been touched in patches (Sonic's flaming spin dash). Just not widespread or consistent (like LInk's standard up-b got buffed, now it's around the same strength as the one designated to be the "slower but stronger").

 

[Vipermoon]

Customs have been touched in patches (Sonic's flaming spin dash). Just not widespread or consistent (like LInk's standard up-b got buffed, now it's around the same strength as the one designated to be the "slower but stronger").

Right. Yeah we've seen some weird stuff.

And with that said I did some of my signature caveman testing. Since counter lasts for a second (60 frames) I took out my iPhone stopwatch and did Easy Counter over and over and over and over and it lasts much longer than a second. I'd say anywhere between 75-85 frames +/- five frames.

Also has Marth always flashed light green while doing the Easy Counter? I'd find out with my older version 3DS but don't have Easy Counter unlocked on it. Lastly, it seems like the counter might be active for longer than frames 5-30 now but that I leave up to you or someone else to find out.

 

[Solutionme]

Oh, I don't think it's -that- fast, that it's faster than DB1 by itself, but it would be quite comparable.

(Sitting down to figure out the actual "forced" animations of each DB is a bit hard, but generally the moment the "swoosh" particle leaves is when frame 1 of the next attack could be coming).



You know this frame data really disappoints me, Marth is too slow, but I will say this though, were he faster or could provide more shield stun and hit stun on his tips, spacing would lead into some brilliant traps and combos. I saw your post on shields in Smash 4 and the fact that a 19 damage move only deals 7 frames of lag for the shield hurts Marth so much. However, I wonder if jab can be used as a possible frame trap if tipped on a shield of certain characters who have poor OoS options that are not quick.

 

[Nargacuga1212]

This was really useful!