Fabulous Empire: The Marth and Lucina Game Play Coalition

[Emblem Lord]

Shaya does effortless Blade come out at the same speed as regular DB?

 

[Mono.]

Perhaps it's just me but it really feels easier to do dash pivots with Lucina than marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's nice

 

[Shaya]

Shaya does effortless Blade come out at the same speed as regular DB?

I really do need to check at some point, haha. I think an eye ball look indicated maybe not. But look where eye balling things have taken me before.

Perhaps it's just me but it really feels easier to do dash pivots with Lucina than marth.

Record yourself dashing to shield in 60fps and tell me if its any different than what I've listed on the previous page.

 

[Raziek]

Any idea dafuq is happening here?

 

[Locuan]

Any idea dafuq is happening here?

Let me start by saying what I thought initially. Lucina is ledgedashing!?
My objective thoughts:
It seems as though the player went for an U-Air after letting go of the ledge. However, the gif is incredibly fast so I do not know if the animation for that actually started and got cancelled into an U-smash when the player touched the ledge. I'm seriously not sure but it looks interesting and worthy of more investigation.

 

[Locuan]

Eh, double post... Why do I always find myself doing this? Anyways, it is completely unrelated to the above post that I had earlier. Anyways, I have some interesting observations regarding both Marth and Lucina. Alright so first and foremost, remember the DB1 into an aerial? Well both Marth and Lucina can perform Fair into DB1 as well. The next are two combos that can be performed by both Marth and Lucina.

Alright so there are two combos. The first is Falling U-air > U-tilt.
The table you will see indicates the start percentage when you can perform the combo and end percent is the highest percentage an opponent can have where the follow up will combo after the U-air. These were all tested against and the percentages can change depending on the character you are up against.

Falling U-air -> U-Tilt:

Character | Start Percent | End Percent
Marth (No Tipper) |

0​

|

56​

Marth (Tipper) |

0​

|

36?​

Lucina |

0​

|

45?​

As you can see from this first table, if Marth tippers the U-air the combo will not hit after 36%. However, if the U-air does not tipper you will be able to combo even when the opponent has 56%. In other words a full 11% over what Lucina can! This is due in part to Marth's height advantage.

The next combo has the same setup but a different follow-up, jab 1.

Falling U-air -> Jab 1:

Character | Start Percent | End Percent
Marth (No Tipper) |

0​

|

40?​

Marth (Tipper) |

0​

|

23​

Lucina |

0​

|

30​

As you can see, same story here more or less. If Marth performs the combo without the U-air being a tipper he can combo a full 10% above what Lucina can. However, with tipper it is 7% below what Lucina can do.

I want everyone to keep in mind, that these values will be different throughout the cast, with their values being modified depending on the weight, height, of the opponent.

I would love to have a thread that has these combos and the different percentages that they can be performed against the Smash 4 cast. I will little by little get more information for each character. However, if anyone gets to testing the setup against the other characters and finds the information feel free to contact me and we can compile what we have!

Combo setups.

• Aerial DB1 (string) > Falling U-Air > U-tilt or Jab 1.
• From ledge: Fair (string) > Falling U-Air > U-tilt or Jab 1.

As you can see there are ways to go around to performing this! Anyways, I think this was worth mentioning since I had not seen it before!

 

[Shaya]

Any idea dafuq is happening here?

I've been doing this accidentally for ages and I have no idea how to do it consistently, but it's basically just ledge drop jumping in such a way that you can just transition on stage laglessly. Funnily enough, I don't believe I've done it with any other character.

 

[Shaya]

So apparently there was a specific character change:

LUCINA
JAB 1 BASE KNOCKBACK : 60 ⇒ 50
JAB 1 KNOCKBACK GROWTH : 25 ⇒ 20

I would say... they either pushed it down to Marth's jab or... I don't know.
Either way, the Lucina niche of using jab more liberally just got culled... but it may actually stay as a set up move for a long time, who knows.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Was Marth always able to hit with the sides of Dair? I'm not sure, I play almost exclusively as Lucina.

Anyway, I'm a bit upset Lucina didn't really get benefited with this patch, she feels about as weak as ever...

 

[Emblem Lord]

She actually got nerfed. Her jab got less knockback which was the one poke she had over Marth.

Honestly if you want to be competitive there is NO reason to use her over Marth now.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, not sure if I'm a fan haha.

 

[DiggersBoy]

She actually got nerfed. Her jab got less knockback which was the one poke she had over Marth.

Honestly if you want to be competitive there is NO reason to use her over Marth now.

But waifu.

 

[Shaya]

Down Tilt and Up Smash have transcended priority

 

[Locuan]

Honestly if you want to be competitive there is NO reason to use her over Marth now.

Those have been my thoughts exactly. At least the transition is not that difficult. I do not understand the reasoning for the nerf but it is what it is.

@ Shaya what do you mean by transcended priority?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Down Tilt and Up Smash have transcended priority

Loooooool

Long live sakurai if this is true

 

[Shaya]

I'm pretty sure it's true, unless I've misinterpreted the hitbox parameter,

but yeah, default hitboxes are 0x2, while I believe transcended priority is 0x19, 0x19 exists on shieldbreakers/dancing blade/etc.

Transcended priority means it doesn't clash. It only interacts with hurtboxes (think falco's laser)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Meh. My dtilt clashed my friends fox. He used his own dtilt

 

[Shaya]

on wiiu or 3ds?

Down Tilt:  Element=0x19, Tripping=0x3EB33333, Hitlag=1.250000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0,  0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Forward Tilt:  Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0,  Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0,  0x1, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Shieldbreaker: Element=0x19, Tripping=0x0,  Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x0, unk_=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x1E, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Dash Assault:  Element=0x19, Tripping=0x0,  Hitlag=0.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x0, unk_=0x0, ShieldDamage=0xA,  0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

Here's the data for four moves. If Element 0x19 isn't transcended priority, than what is it? Hmmm very weird.

The only other difference is those two unk_ equaling 0/0 on the specials but 1/1 on the tilts.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wii u version

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, just tested, definitely not transcended priority on down tilt. HMMMM, mystery of 0x19.

But up smash tipper seems to be one though.

 

[The_Cardinal]

I briefly played around with Crescent Slash in 1.04. It SEEMS more legit, presumably because you can't just vector up anymore. Has anyone else tried it out yet?

 

[EternalFlame]

Eh, double post... Why do I always find myself doing this? Anyways, it is completely unrelated to the above post that I had earlier. Anyways, I have some interesting observations regarding both Marth and Lucina. Alright so first and foremost, remember the DB1 into an aerial? Well both Marth and Lucina can perform Fair into DB1 as well. The next are two combos that can be performed by both Marth and Lucina.

Alright so there are two combos. The first is Falling U-air > U-tilt.
The table you will see indicates the start percentage when you can perform the combo and end percent is the highest percentage an opponent can have where the follow up will combo after the U-air. These were all tested against and the percentages can change depending on the character you are up against.

Falling U-air -> U-Tilt:

Character | Start Percent | End Percent
Marth (No Tipper) |

0​

|

56​

Marth (Tipper) |

0​

|

36?​

Lucina |

0​

|

45?​

As you can see from this first table, if Marth tippers the U-air the combo will not hit after 36%. However, if the U-air does not tipper you will be able to combo even when the opponent has 56%. In other words a full 11% over what Lucina can! This is due in part to Marth's height advantage.

The next combo has the same setup but a different follow-up, jab 1.

Falling U-air -> Jab 1:

Character | Start Percent | End Percent
Marth (No Tipper) |

0​

|

40?​

Marth (Tipper) |

0​

|

23​

Lucina |

0​

|

30​

As you can see, same story here more or less. If Marth performs the combo without the U-air being a tipper he can combo a full 10% above what Lucina can. However, with tipper it is 7% below what Lucina can do.

I want everyone to keep in mind, that these values will be different throughout the cast, with their values being modified depending on the weight, height, of the opponent.

I would love to have a thread that has these combos and the different percentages that they can be performed against the Smash 4 cast. I will little by little get more information for each character. However, if anyone gets to testing the setup against the other characters and finds the information feel free to contact me and we can compile what we have!

Combo setups.

• Aerial DB1 (string) > Falling U-Air > U-tilt or Jab 1.
• From ledge: Fair (string) > Falling U-Air > U-tilt or Jab 1.

As you can see there are ways to go around to performing this! Anyways, I think this was worth mentioning since I had not seen it before!

Haha, seems both of us have very similar conclusions, and even this tech originated from Diddy/Falcon mains xD I did not compile the data percentages though, so perhaps the two of us can help each other out here. I have listed all of the stuff I've found for Marth (which is in the process of being edited towards Marth and Lucina), here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.372527/

 

[Dark RangerEX]

Started playing Smash 4 recently. I've played all of the previous Smashes, but I'm having a particular problem in this one, punishing dodge rolls (especially when they are used in neutral and especially BACK ROLLS). They seem very fast in this game, and all of the options I've been trying seem too slow to punish the recovery of a roll on reaction (even if I bait it out and try to punish the roll when I see it start up).

Now I CAN punish them if I straight up yomi dash > throw before the roll even comes out...but if they do anything else then I end up eating a huge punish. Hell most of the times I've punished rolls it's because I've predicted the option they do after the roll in addition to predicting the original roll.

Well anyways, what methods are you guys using to punish rolls?

 

[Shaya]

Punishing the action after the roll is actually the smart choice.
You see the roll, position yourself (however you can) that's most advantageous to you and knowing what likely their next option is (hold shield? do an attack? grab? spot dodge?) it's likely easier to punish the second choice.

Kinda like "how do I deal with X character fast falling an aerial into my shield!"
well chances are, they're getting you with an aerial into shield into a landing action, like a jab or tilt. How easy is it to also just shield the next hit and then punish that? 9 times out of 10 it's significantly easier.

just dashing extra forward assuming a double roll and you'll find yourself ahead of them in frame advantage before they are.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Was Marth always able to hit with the sides of Dair?

Reposting.


Just as a funfact I played Brawl the other day and I noticed I used Marth's Fair WAY differently than before: Much more calculated and less "I'll throw this wishing to fake you out and punish afterwards" and more "personal space, don't come here or I'll slice you". It was amazing, particularly because I wasn't depending on it as much as I used to.

 

[Shaya]

Yes

Marth's dair hitbox always covered close to 180 degrees; I would actually say it's less in this game. 150ish.

 

[Dark RangerEX]

You guys probably already know this, but Shield Breaker kills have to be the most satisfying thing ever. You have enough time to push your opponent to the edge of the stage and do another fully charged Shield Breaker. You can kill people at like 40%+. (Tipper SB with Marth can kill at around 25%.................but w/e).

They should make Marth's SB have a sourspot near the hilt/first half of the blade where it doesn't do massive shield damage, to at least give Lucina SOMETHING over Marth (and for consistency's sake).

 

[Random4811]

You guys probably already know this, but Shield Breaker kills have to be the most satisfying thing ever. You have enough time to push your opponent to the edge of the stage and do another fully charged Shield Breaker. You can kill people at like 40%+. (Tipper SB with Marth can kill at around 25%.................but w/e).

They should make Marth's SB have a sourspot near the hilt/first half of the blade where it doesn't do massive shield damage, to at least give Lucina SOMETHING over Marth (and for consistency's sake).

You think that is satisfying? try following up with a tipper F smash near ledge with rage. Get ready for a 20% kill. Is so sexy.

By logics sake, I would think that if it hit nearer to the hilt, it should break more, due to more of the sword being in the shield. I mean, tipper shield cracking is sexy.

Hey guys.

Spoiler

We should give Lucina Roy's sweetspots, and make her sour spot do less than Marth's...

 

[EnGarde]

Why does Lucina have a longer perfect pivot length than Marth when their movement frame data is identical?

Context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0

Perfect Pivot lengths (measured in squares on the side of omega Windy Hill Zone):
Marth: 3.5
Lucina: 4.5

 

[Shaya]

I spotted that and honestly didn't get it either. It could literally be a "bug" based around movement and models, and their slight differences allow it?
Or the testing was done poorly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Probably there is optimal pivot frames.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

My Lucina's the best.

 

[Vipermoon]

| Active | End | Invincibility | Invincibility (in the air)
Counter | 5 – 25 | 60 | |
Easy Counter | 5 – 30 | 59 | |
Counter Attack | 24~ | 51 | 1 – 23 |
Iai Counter | 3 – 15~ | 55 | |
Iai Attack | 14~ | 43 | 1 – 13 |

Dolphin Slash | 5~ | 23 | 4 – 6 | 1 – 4
Crescent Slash | 9~ | 36 | 8 – 10 | 1 – 10
Dolphin Jump | 0 | 43 | 11 – 13 | 1 – 10

| Active | End | End (ground)
Heavy Blade | 11 – 14 | 39 | 55
Dancing Blade | 7~ | 33 | 45

Shield Breaker | 19~ | 52
Storm Thrust | 19 – 37 | 67
Dash Assault | 19 – 39 | 65

I am slightly confused by the aerial Up B invincibility reporting. Why is no one making a big deal about Dolphin Slash in the air still having frame 1 invincibility?

So this makes it way better for breaking out of repeating jabs with DS rather than Uair? Does the fact that hits on frame 5 without invincibility (oddly, unlike grounded version) affect it's ability as a combo breaker? What exact frames were invincible in Brawl (I'm wondering if it went from, like, frame 1 till 6 for example? And if it was also different in the air in Brawl?)

I don't even get why it has different invincibility than the grounded version. This isn't a mistake right?

 

[Shaya]

MK's shuttle loop in brawl had no aerial invincibility while grounded invincibility frames 6-8.
It isn't that uncommon.

Problem with it really is what are you trying to up-b through? Jabs? Things which are below you as well as horizontally away from you (by virtue of how their hitboxes send you).
Hitting them with the up-b is hard, if we had SDI it would be a different story. Instead of upbing through something close to the ground facing them, you'll generally be doing so above the ground, and whilst you're 1-4 invincibility will allow you to 'escape' it's hitbox isn't likely to be hitting an opponent. Voila, free punish.

B-Stick may make it a more reliable thing to execute.

 

[Vipermoon]

MK's shuttle loop in brawl had no aerial invincibility while grounded invincibility frames 6-8.
It isn't that uncommon.

Problem with it really is what are you trying to up-b through? Jabs? Things which are below you as well as horizontally away from you (by virtue of how their hitboxes send you).
Hitting them with the up-b is hard, if we had SDI it would be a different story. Instead of upbing through something close to the ground facing them, you'll generally be doing so above the ground, and whilst you're 1-4 invincibility will allow you to 'escape' it's hitbox isn't likely to be hitting an opponent. Voila, free punish.

B-Stick may make it a more reliable thing to execute.

Yes mostly repeating jabs. Works on Little Mac perfectly or Ness's PK Fire. Sometimes I "SDI" too high and my DS whiffs but to counter that I try not to spam it so I don't get too high up. Usually I'm able to get the Up B but I try Up air too and sometimes get that. But I thought frame 4-6 invincibility also applied to aerial DS till I reread page 6. I'm thinking with frame 1 invinc, it's superior to other options like uair or counter.

Okay so aerial up B has the same invincibility as Brawl, 1-4? So vs up air or vs counter, Up B will have a better time breaking out of the faster stuff even if I'm not invincible during the hitbox?

 

[Shaya]

Brawl was 1-5.
Yeah I use up-b for both PK-Fire and Elfire.

 

[Vipermoon]

Brawl was 1-5.
Yeah I use up-b for both PK-Fire and Elfire.

Oh yeah that rings a bell. Thanks for fishing for this data btw.

 

[eshu125]

MK's shuttle loop in brawl had no aerial invincibility while grounded invincibility frames 6-8.
It isn't that uncommon.

Problem with it really is what are you trying to up-b through? Jabs? Things which are below you as well as horizontally away from you (by virtue of how their hitboxes send you).
Hitting them with the up-b is hard, if we had SDI it would be a different story. Instead of upbing through something close to the ground facing them, you'll generally be doing so above the ground, and whilst you're 1-4 invincibility will allow you to 'escape' it's hitbox isn't likely to be hitting an opponent. Voila, free punish.

B-Stick may make it a more reliable thing to execute.

Actually I hit people when being rapid jabbed all the time, e.g. little mac, captain falcon, diddy kong, sheik, etc. However, it does not work against up-tilt combos (such as mario, luigi, fox, etc) whatsoever.

 

[Shaya]

Continued rapid jabs, but I haven't seen consistent up-bing through people's regular minimum jab combos (would probably be character dependent).