Fabulous Empire: The Marth and Lucina Game Play Coalition

[Gawain]

Would someone who has the game be willing to do some investigations on how exactly the side-b works with Marth in this game? We already have the percentiles for Lucina, and it's made me mighty curious.

Lucina's side-b dishes out 16-22% in total, and it seems pretty easy to connect the first hit and follow up with the rest. If you're losing 1-2% on every non-tipper strike with Marth, and getting a tipper during the sequence almost always breaks it, then that would be one thing Lucina does better.

That's true but the DED wasn't really used much in competitive play in the later years of melee. I have a sneaking suspicion that this game will end up being similar. It just doesn't feel as useful as either of their tilts to me. I haven't got the game but a buddy of mine does. If I get the chance I'll post the damages.

 

[Freelance Spy]

We had all better have secondaries to take out Duck Hunt Dog... that guy is the most nightmarish match-up I can imagine. Some people's projectiles, like Samus, we can just fair through, but not DHD's. He has spacing tools that will be really tough to get past. This will be exacerbated by having a bunch of FD's. On the Wii U version we'll have more stages though so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

You really think DHD will be a problem when you can rush him with side special 2? I feel like Marth can swat away most projectiles usually. To me it reminds me of the Marth vs Snake MU which was one of the funnest and my personal favorite.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I feel like comboability will be the deciding factor on whether I use Marth or Lucina more. Whoever has more guaranteed BnBs is going to ultimately be the better character in most instances.

 

[Gawain]

I feel like comboability will be the deciding factor on whether I use Marth or Lucina more. Whoever has more guaranteed BnBs is going to ultimately be the better character in most instances.

Well interestingly enough comboability doesn't seem to be the end all be all of this game. Some characters like Bowser are extraordinarily good despite having very few, very simple combos. Having good combos is just one thing; I feel like kill potential is a lot more important with this game due to the way recoveries work.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Well interestingly enough comboability doesn't seem to be the end all be all of this game. Some characters like Bowser are extraordinarily good despite having very few, very simple combos. Having good combos is just one thing; I feel like kill potential is a lot more important with this game due to the way recoveries work.

Interesting theory... Come to think of it that was sort of brawl's case... HOWEVER when you put it like THAT...

Tippers.

 

[Gawain]

Interesting theory... Come to think of it that was sort of brawl's case... HOWEVER when you put it like THAT...

Tippers.

Well it's different from Brawl simply because this game doesn't reward defensive play as much as Brawl did. It's really pretty balanced in terms of rewarding defensive or offensive play. That's what I've noticed from my large amount of time with the demo and from the limited time I've actually played the game.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Well it's different from Brawl simply because this game doesn't reward defensive play as much as Brawl did. It's really pretty balanced in terms of rewarding defensive or offensive play. That's what I've noticed from my large amount of time with the demo and from the limited time I've actually played the game.

Eh we are sliding a bit off topic from characters... I'd like to point out there's an entire new DI system people just figured out, and it may very well make a lot of those "guaranteed" combos we've been seeing obsolete. I like to take everything with a grain of slat however and I really do hope for the best for this game. Defensive play works, as Zero has demonstrated time and time again. Sure, the game is obviously going to be fun to watch and flashy, but the meta may evolve to be closer to brawl tan some people like.

If it's more defensive, Marth and Lucina will still be good, More offensive then they are probably good at that as well. The way Marth's style works pretty much keeps him in the better character's zone. He's fast, has auto cancelling moves, and can glide on the stage and air to get follow ups nicely. Doesn't hurt that he packs some great finishers too.

 

[Robertman2]

What's with people worrying about ?

 

[Qikz]

I hope this is the right place to put this as the OP mentions shared matchup discussions, but there's a few matchups that I personally am having some issues with and I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions/advice on how they play them as I feel like I must be missing something.

My main matchup I've been having trouble with online is vs Lucario with Lucina. I've not really tried Marth, but I find I have serious trouble managing to kill a good Lucario at high percents. I can get him to about 120%, but then due to his increased speed and good recovery I find it really difficult to kill him without either losing a stock or losing the game completely. A similar issue I have with Ness. I find it really hard to get into range against him due to PK fire and other Ness keepaway so I find it really hard to ever kill him. If this is the right thread, is there any advice any sages could give me on those matchups?

 

[Unicorn]

I don't know what kill move you've been trying to use, but Lucina's Up-Smash is really good. At 120% you should be able to whiff or roll punish Lucario (or most any character) and kill him with it. When trying to approach a projectile character the only advice I can give that is specific to this game is approach from the ground. This game has high ground speed but pretty floaty air speed in general, so keeping your feet on the ground unless you need to Fair through a projectile seems like a pretty good bet.

Of course, I haven't actually played the game beyond the demo, only watched so this is purely from observation.

 

[Gawain]

What's with people worrying about ?

His projectiles aren't negated by most of M/L's aerials. His projecticle are insanely fast. The can kills approach options. Seriously just watch some of M2Ks DHD gameplay. It's nuts.

 

[Qikz]

His projectiles aren't negated by most of M/L's aerials. His projecticle are insanely fast. The can kills approach options. Seriously just watch some of M2Ks DHD gameplay. It's nuts.

I'm not so sure about that, you can fair/bair/attack the clay pidgeon and the can. The only thing you can't fair (unless you're close enough to hit it) is the wild gunman from my experience. Saying that, it is rather risky to try and attack the clay pidgeon and most likely you're better off running and power shielding.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Still 2 weeks, I really wish to try Lucina already. Marth all the same too.

How are current impressions with both?

 

[Unicorn]

His projectiles aren't negated by most of M/L's aerials.

M/L's aerials. Thought you meant Mario and Luigi for a second... was really confused.

 

[Emblem Lord]

http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-marth-movelist-video-comparison.369087/

 

[Shaya]

Characters with really strong zoning control through hitboxes may be heavily susceptible to Counter.
Are aerials not able to swat away any of DHD's projectiles?

I think dash rolling (cancelling your initial dash with a roll), preferably using back roll, will let us bait around well in neutral where we could mix up dash in shield, counter or shield breakers, or even sporadically rolling in as an approach.


~~~~
Ness seems really good/solid in this game, and without anything dumb on him, it would definitely be harder. Design wise I think M/L beats Ness (at least by Brawl standards) due to outranging ness completely everywhere bar full hop forward airs. Off stage counter, unless the mechanics have changed, should be death for any recovering Ness (using his default PK thunder).

I think power shielding still reflects/kills PK fire, so that's important and will be easier once we get controlling our characters better (or in the WiiU version).

Walking jab still beats clanks PK fire/Thunder too right?

Typical zoning/approaching wise, well spaced neutral airs should be pretty sufficient in having a controlling/advantageous neutral.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just putting this here. Will post my thoughts later. NAKAT is currently considered the strongest Brawl player in NJ. His opponent Nairo is a tournament champion as well and has won an apex.

 

[Shaya]

M/L's vertical domination using jumps still seem to be key here.

(i.e. be in the air -> oh I'll jump right now into fast fall aerial, or ill just fast fall aerial, or i'll just fast fall into grab/dtilt).

 

[Raziek]

M/L's vertical domination using jumps still seem to be key here.

(i.e. be in the air -> oh I'll jump right now into fast fall aerial, or ill just fast fall aerial, or i'll just fast fall into grab/dtilt).

Definitely. Bair is still a wonderous edge guard tool.

Also counter is hella real.

 

[Freelance Spy]

My main matchup I've been having trouble with online is vs Lucario with Lucina. I've not really tried Marth, but I find I have serious trouble managing to kill a good Lucario at high percents.

A similar issue I have with Ness. I find it really hard to get into range against him due to PK fire and other Ness keepaway so I find it really hard to ever kill him. If this is the right thread, is there any advice any sages could give me on those matchups?

Against Lucario you can always counter. Counter is a viable KO move because Lucario's attacks get so strong at ko percents the amplified knockback and damage will probably kill him. Just try to make sure he doesn't catch on or else he'll try to side-b/rab you to death. Also don't use counters till high percents to keep it fresh and to make them harder to predict.

You have to lean when to approach and when to powershield/dodge those annoying long range characters. I think there are some old guides on how to learn ti approach projectile spammers in the melee, pm, and probably brawl sections.

 

[NAKAT]

I have a lot of lucina footage I need to upload for you all.

 

[Raziek]

I have a lot of lucina footage I need to upload for you all.

If you have some time, I'm curious to know your thoughts on her, her expected tier placement, and how she compares to Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I do not know who this young man is using Lucina, but he is truly fearsome. Probably the best display of spacing, control and being able to flow from situation to situation, that I have seen thus far.

Tell me, does this look slow? Does she look boring and ineffective just because she cant SHFF Fair? Is she camping? Is she defensive? No, no ,no and nooooooooooo.

She goes in, but she does it HER way. The way Lucina (and Marth by extension) are made too. With proper spacing and intelligent mix-ups.

Dat d-tilt though


DAT D-TILT THOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

 

[Shaya]

Down tilt has been the best move they have over all three games, I agree.

To greninja's credit, the player didn't know how to do anything other than attack while standing still and rolling.

I may be insane but fast fall down air has just as much lag as FF fair. God that's nice.

I would assume Lucina was True Blue, he was a Brawl Sonic main from Florida. I would say he knows how to play campy, and I think from the second stock onwards he was sandbagging kinda hard / playing campy for no reason (using his second jump to retreat without any reason to do so). That 88% death from a forward smash was like "what"?

 

[NAKAT]

I got you. I am actually playing on stream atm if you guys wanna watch live http://www.twitch.tv/nakat973

 

[Emblem Lord]

Being defensive when you have life lead is ok. It's called being intelligent.

 

[Unicorn]

If you have some time, I'm curious to know your thoughts on her, her expected tier placement, and how she compares to Marth.

Seconded. I'm mostly curious about how she compares to Marth. Everything I've heard says that Marth is crud and Lucina is goddesswaifuomg but I'm still holding out hope that well played tippers can give Marth the edge. Because I like Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

NAKAT doesnt play Marth

Also why do you need someone to validate you?

 

[Shaya]

Being defensive when you have life lead is ok. It's called being intelligent.

Choosing to not punish over punishing in a friendly seems like sandbagging.

 

[Unicorn]

NAKAT doesnt play Marth

Also why do you need someone to validate you?

I'm not asking for validation, I'm asking for the opinion of a highly skilled player who understands the mechanics of both smash in general, and Smash 4 far better than I do. But apparently the point is moot. If Marth was objectively worse than Lucina in terms of frame data than I probably wouldn't play him in a competitive setting. Luckily this is not the case.

 

[grandmaster192]

I have a question.

Does Lucina's f-air send people in a different direction than Marth's?

 

[NAKAT]

I have a question.

Does Lucina's f-air send people in a different direction than Marth's?

Nah it doesn't

 

[NAKAT]

I did play Marth at a competent level in Brawl, but by no means was I MR.R or Mikeneko. I can compare then, but I am being swamped with HW today so it will have to be later.

 

[Emblem Lord]

From vids I have seen their movement is equal. The only thing I'm concerned with is frame data on moves.

 

[NAKAT]

twitch.tv/rushhoursmash

 

[Emblem Lord]

My thoughts after watching the stream -

They are the same. Lucina and Marth and both looked good. There was nothing NAKAT was doing with one that he did not do with the other. Follow-ups were percent based as were all the combos, but they had the same set-ups. The traps worked the same for both characters. I could tell the bad controls of the 3ds affected his Marth play a little more. He seemed to be trying hard to space at the tip, but with Lucina he only spaced himself just well enough so he would be safe if he was blocked or airdodged. Good d-tilt action as well as DB punishes.

Once he had momentum both lords were a sight to see and graceful in motion.

They are the same. One has a sweetspot and one doesnt but if you can play one, you can play the other.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Whooooo, damn. Those were some nice videos.

I like the way Lucina moves. Kind of reminds me of Melee marth. Just kind of.

I missed the stream. I hope some of the content gets uploaded

 

[UberMadman]

So apparently a reddit user named kuraido_ has pointed out that there are more differences to Marth and Lucina than just their tipper related mechanics. He claims that, while their movement speeds and weight may be the same, the speed of their attacks varies. Some of Marth's attacks come out faster, while some of them are slower. Still not much, and I don't have the game myself so I can't back up his claims, but if true, it's something.

 

[True Blue]

I definitely wasn't sandbagging. 3DS controls are just sooo wonky for me. I use my c-stick for all my aerials so I was kinda derping especially doing smashes I wanted. Plus, I had played him earlier and was under the assumption that Greninjas dash attack was always safe since he seemed to always have time to spot dodge before I could punish. Actually, thought a lot of things were safe. That was like my second time playing. lol.
But definitely liked Lucina, and really wanted her in the game instead of Marth. So I played her for the first time that day. Her spot dodge is cool looking. lol
But you guys seemed to be looking into a lot of things, so will be jumping in here now and again to learn things.

On a side note: OMG SHAYA SEMPAI REMEMBERED ME! lol jk.

Edit: Also someone told me and wasn't sure if this is true, but they said Lucina had Hidden Tippers. Is that true?

 

[Shaya]

Lucina has a forward smash tipper flub.

Why would I forget you?
You're literally THAT GUY.

I can't think of a THAT GUY as that guy as you are true blue. Also should've beaten you in doubles all those millennia ago.