EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Geist]

I agree with the thread title.

 

[MeijinAkuma]

Hey I am having trouble getting back onto the stage once I make it to the ledge... I don't feel like I have a lot of options in the more important match ups.

More specifically, I got wrecked by Jace's Captain Falcon in my last tournament who camped bairs when i was trying to come up off the ledge... I tried WDing up into a variety of moves, straight into shield, or mixing in aerials/roll/jump but I felt like he was just reacting and connecting every time.

I think my best option is just to fluidly go from recovering to the ledge to WDing onto stage as fast as possible... any thoughts?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Try learning the uair cancel thingie so you can get a little invincibility on the landing. It's pretty hard though, so if you don't have it down you can just double jump and land, without wavelanding. You won't really get any invincibility, but Samus lands way sooner than most people think, which can throw off their "I expected you to waveland into my aerial" timing. Especially if you make it look like you're just dj'ing on the ledge to renew invincibility, then you jump just slightly higher and land into an immediate tilt or something.

 

[vadgama]

Try learning the uair cancel thingie so you can get a little invincibility on the landing. It's pretty hard though, so if you don't have it down you can just double jump and land, without wavelanding. You won't really get any invincibility, but Samus lands way sooner than most people think, which can throw off their "I expected you to waveland into my aerial" timing. Especially if you make it look like you're just dj'ing on the ledge to renew invincibility, then you jump just slightly higher and land into an immediate tilt or something.

Did u mean L-Canceling the u-air? If so, then L-Canceling is a great thing to pick up even though it's not that widely used for Samus players it is great for certain aerials with Samus like u-air, n-air, every other - air. I'd say if you were gonna practice L-Canceling practice fast-fall L-Canceling. Again L-Canceling is more of a big deal for spacies, marth, ect. but can help.

 

[Geist]

Nope, he means something different. Some moves in melee have a property that will snap you to a platform or a ledge when they're done at the right timing, with no aerial landing lag.
Can't find the video, but I'm pretty sure Phanna has something on it.

 

[vadgama]

wtf awesomeness! If you find a vid please send it my way. :]

 

[Geist]

found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUe49pwudg

Pretty much when phanna snaps to the platform, he's uairing right beforehand.

 

[vadgama]

found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUe49pwudg

Pretty much when phanna snaps to the platform, he's uairing right beforehand.

Bad-***! Sucks that there's not even a slight hitbox on it lol. Thanks for the finding the vid.

 

[ES Lite]

Hey guys i just came back from a tournament yesterday.
I did really well with samus, won a majority of my matches as long as I wasn't facing a really big pro or something.

Except for marths. I'm pretty sure I did perfectly well against them, but still manage to lose due to their spacing and tippers. I don't know if I should just get better at the matchup, or pick up a secondary just to eliminate any marths I come across in brackets.

Help?

 

[vadgama]

Sheik is pretty fun to play as a counter to Marths, but maybe that's just my personal preference.

 

[Geist]

Marth matchup requires you too keep just out of his range at all times. Marth is pretty easy to punish if he's whiffing moves left and right, so it's best if you keep practicing, learn the spacing like the back of your hand, and play it nice and carefully.
WDing back into dash attacks is a good way to counter a double fair approach. In fact dash attacks are pretty safe in general in this matchup provided you don't use them poorly. Mixing dash attack timings up vs marths that like approaching via the air can be really effective.
Your ftilts can be punished OoS, but the timing is really hard, and odds are people won't have a reaction time required as long as you're not too obvious with it, it's a pretty safe footsie move.

You'll need your wds oos in this matchup. As long as you keep the matchup going as horizontally as possible (try to stay grounded, plats put you at a disadvantage, and I really don't need to tell you what happens when you're above Marth)

 

[Rat]

uh how do you hit a retreating marth?

I can only intercept him, or get him when he's stationary. The only thing I have on retreating marth is taking his space.


Also I need sheik advice. Like mediocre sheiks are pretty easy, just like good players tend to switch to shiek and **** me. Any advice would be appreciate.

 

[Geist]

If you're trying to hit a retreating Marth that means you're approaching.
:[

Sheik is a hard matchup. I only have 2 types of experience with sheiks, vs bad ones, and vs KK
So I got nothing. Other than that you have to be very, very precise with your moves, and stay one step ahead with positioning and stage control.

 

[ES Lite]

So vs. Marth:

-use dash attacks when he approaches
-wavedash oos (in or out?)
-practice spacing with ftilts
-never approach the marth?

Would it be a bad thing to pick up shiek in general thou? She seems kind of fun to play :/

 

[Geist]

Do whatever you want, if you enjoy it then nobody's stopping you lol

Wavedash in or out depending on the situation. You can wd oos and attack if he fsmashes your shield, and I'm pretty sure you can also get off a shieldgrab. wd oos is pretty much the safest way of moving around, and moving is definitely what you want to do in this matchup.
You can approach, just be safe, wear protection, all that jazz.

 

[vadgama]

So vs. Marth:
Would it be a bad thing to pick up shiek in general thou? She seems kind of fun to play :/

Sheik is fun for a good while once you pick her up... but kinda gets dull after a while. There's only so many times where getting people caught in her ftilt, utilt, and dtilt pops to f-air combos is fun. Even though I used to main sheik I would say choosing a spacey if you have the skill to control em. Or maybe even YL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3tl8DUwna0.

Personally I'd just play whoever is the funnest to play. Right now that's Samus for me. Who cares if they're somewhat lower tier than marth, peach, sheik, puff, spacies, ect.. Get good enough and it won't matter.

 

[Pi]

marth has to approach you, throw all 3 of your projectiles at him, he'll mess up eventually, you won't
not like you're a spacie and there's a risk you'll side b off the edge or something

@vadgama
that's the reason most of us are playing samus
but still, when you get to the point where you really start realizing how much of an advantage certain characters have over samus it's a little disheartening

we still play here though, and don't let anyone or anything make you think it can't be done because it surely can
you just have to be better than your opponent by a wider margin

 

[Geist]

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Your ftilts can be punished OoS, but the timing is really hard, and odds are people won't have a reaction time required as long as you're not too obvious with it, it's a pretty safe footsie move.

For the Marths that can punish F-Tilt OoS, it's really a pain in the ***.


Also sometimes you should just let Marth go through his aerial advances until he lands. Just stay in shield for as long as he's in the air until his Fair/Bair/Uair spam has ended and WD away as soon as he tries to set something else up. (most likely a retreating aerial or his grab)

 

[Pi]

you can grab a poorly spaced utilt on your shield

 

[ES Lite]

I laughed hard.

-----------------------

Yeah i also heard that link was a really bad match up for marth. Im assuming so is YL...
For the sole purpose of destroying marths, however. No matter how hard I try, my samus can never beat a marth in a tournament set. Its not possible with the way the stages are picked; I am always left be above marth in a platform, getting tipped to my death.

-Shiek is fast, hard hitting, and supposedly THE counter for marth, if played correctly. But can get dull.

-Link is apparently marths WORST matchup. I read this on a germ vs. marth video. I've seen germ **** marths, but I'm not sure I can build a link as powerful as his.

-Young link is kinda the same, but im guessing is a little bit easier to master. You dont see a lot of young link players around here, same with link, so the chances of my foiling the marth's plan is obviously higher than with shiek.

I don't know if im taking this too seriously or not, but marth has always been killing me, both physically and mentally....
But from the looks of it, i think young link is the most appealing. He has a lot of nice options for approaching and whatnot. Can I get some experienced players who have played YL vs. Marth to confirm that he can counter marth?

 

[Pi]

YL has shorter range than link
and link is not marth's worst matchups
though it is one of links better ones

marth's worst matchup is shiek, hands down

the samus marth matchup is close to even once you start reading your opponent
and i don't mean just techs
once you know how he's going to approach, when he's going to jump, when he's going to side b, when he's going to grab, etc. samus has means to counter all of those things and make him start guessing, and guessing is 50/50

his safest guess is a retreating guess, which you don't have to fall into

 

[ThePrime]

the samus marth matchup is close to even once you start reading your opponent
and i don't mean just techs
once you know how he's going to approach, when he's going to jump, when he's going to side b, when he's going to grab, etc. samus has means to counter all of those things and make him start guessing, and guessing is 50/50

his safest guess is a retreating guess, which you don't have to fall into

This. Exactly this.

 

[vadgama]

once you know how he's going to approach, when he's going to jump, when he's going to side b, when he's going to grab, etc. samus has means to counter all of those things and make him start guessing, and guessing is 50/50

I'm at this stage now against a YL player who went to tourneys and won them. I believe but stopped going because people hated playing against him because they could never touch him.

Even with knowing what he's gonna do, finding a move that Samus has to counter with is a pain! YL's u-air is beast and his d-air covers his whole freaking body! wtf!?

 

[ThePrime]

I'm at this stage now against a YL player who went to tourneys and won them I believe but stopped going because people hated playing him cause they could never touch him. Even with knowing what he's gonna do, finding a move that Samus has to counter with is a pain! YL's u-air covers his whole freaking body! wtf!?

I'm kinda confused lol, the only YL players in WA that I know of were HeroSublime and Chip. Unless it's someone else? You guys should come to the next gameclucks in lynnwood on may 5th if you aren't busy.

But in general, you shouldn't be trying to rival most character's aerials in the first place. Samus is bad in the air because her attacks are too committing, old news here. Getting uaired a lot? Then just try to land to safety and be happy with that.

Also the one thing samus has over most low tiers is her crouch cancel, so abuse it.

 

[vadgama]

I'm kinda confused lol, the only YL players in WA that I know of were HeroSublime and Chip. Unless it's someone else? You guys should come to the next gameclucks in lynnwood on may 5th if you aren't busy.

But in general, you shouldn't be trying to rival most character's aerials in the first place. Samus is bad in the air because her attacks are too committing, old news here. Getting uaired a lot? Then just try to land to safety and be happy with that.

Also the one thing samus has over most low tiers is her crouch cancel, so abuse it.

It's someone else.

Sounds like fun, just need to see what's going on for me that day but I think I'm wide open. I'll have to talk to my friend and c if he's down too.

Yeah I notice I usually try to approach from the air with a nair or dair. Then since I don't L-cancel most of my aerials he grabs me. He can even grab me if I drop behind him, because YL's grab is wtf crazy like that.

Yeah when he gets me in the air, he juggles me a lot with uair. I try to fight him with d-air but that has ended up almost futile. So I usually try to fake him out with bombs.

 

[Pi]

yea, not everything can be counter attacked, knowing what moves & situations are safe to challenge is important
that's what allows us to win with lower tier characters is knowing when we simply cannot attack because of our characters weaknesses

 

[ES Lite]

I just need to know how to counter the "Im marth and my sword covers the whole stage while you blissfully float down to the stage again just to get fsmashed/ftilt/utilt/fair/bair/b'd again. whatchugunnado?" tactic.

Which of samus's move do i use to counters marth's range on any of those moves? Do i just run close to him the whole time so he cant get a tipper?

 

[Pi]

you're missing the fundamental key to beating marth

pit 1 move vs the other, every one of marths' moves is going to win vs. samus, that's just how it is

but as i said before, melee is too fast to reliably outspace samus 100% of the time

if marth is trying to space fairs, then look at how it's being done. He cannot reactively fair every one of your approachs, so you bait him to fair.

if he's full hop fairing, then you can chase him and punish him before he has time to recover from doing it, upair if he's above you, full hop fair if he's retreating it or doing it spaced where an upair won't hit him

if he's shffling fairs, then you know he is going to land, so dash dance and dash attack, if he's shielding then grab, or the tried and true method of CC dsmashing

if he starts to delay fair into shield to prevent you from CC dsmashing, then CC grab him (r+a)

if he's fairing (in a SH) as soon as he's leaving the ground, then you can punish that very easily, his fair is fast, but it's punishable

it's not about outspacing his attacks, because you can't, it's about baiting his attacks and punishing the whiffs

becoming good at samus, and at melee, requires you to know when you can punish and when you can't punish. the better the player is the more openings he see's compared to the lower level players

this comes with experience

if you need specific strategies to beat marth then you need to give specific instances in which you're being shut down, generic questions are hard to answer

 

[ES Lite]

you're missing the fundamental key to beating marth

pit 1 move vs the other, every one of marths' moves is going to win vs. samus, that's just how it is

but as i said before, melee is too fast to reliably outspace samus 100% of the time

if marth is trying to space fairs, then look at how it's being done. He cannot reactively fair every one of your approachs, so you bait him to fair.

if he's full hop fairing, then you can chase him and punish him before he has time to recover from doing it, upair if he's above you, full hop fair if he's retreating it or doing it spaced where an upair won't hit him

if he's shffling fairs, then you know he is going to land, so dash dance and dash attack, if he's shielding then grab, or the tried and true method of CC dsmashing

if he starts to delay fair into shield to prevent you from CC dsmashing, then CC grab him (r+a)

if he's fairing (in a SH) as soon as he's leaving the ground, then you can punish that very easily, his fair is fast, but it's punishable

it's not about outspacing his attacks, because you can't, it's about baiting his attacks and punishing the whiffs

becoming good at samus, and at melee, requires you to know when you can punish and when you can't punish. the better the player is the more openings he see's compared to the lower level players

this comes with experience

if you need specific strategies to beat marth then you need to give specific instances in which you're being shut down, generic questions are hard to answer

My eyes have been opened to the truth!
I understand everything now. Thank you wise one.

So for the first stock, I should be stalling, and watching how he fairs and when he reacts to grab, then use this against him for the rest of the match?

 

[Pi]

no, use it until he changes up, then change up accordingly
technically speaking whoever picks up on the first pattern should have the advantage
but we all know it doesn't go that way

 

[resTy]

Did u mean L-Canceling the u-air? If so, then L-Canceling is a great thing to pick up even though it's not that widely used for Samus players it is great for certain aerials with Samus like u-air, n-air, every other - air. I'd say if you were gonna practice L-Canceling practice fast-fall L-Canceling. Again L-Canceling is more of a big deal for spacies, marth, ect. but can help.

Is this post serious?

 

[Pi]

vadgama is so cute lol

 

[ThePrime]

^ I seriously lol'd haha, we love you vad

 

[Pi]

i found out one of my newer smash friends who plays primarily 64 has version 1.00!!!!
so i traded him my disc for his
huehuehue
UpB OP

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

i found out one of my newer smash friends who plays primarily 64 has version 1.00!!!!
so i traded him my disc for his
huehuehue
UpB OP

I hate you. Ver.1 Screw Attack is godly. I swear Samus goes up a tier with that move.

 

[vadgama]

Is this post serious?

Whoops, yeah...idk what I was thinking. haha

 

[Pi]

I hate you. Ver.1 Screw Attack is godly. I swear Samus goes up a tier with that move.

the best part is that if you ub someone who's trying to like gimp you or something, more likely than not it will put them behind you off the stage
jajaja

 

[Rohins]

i found out one of my newer smash friends who plays primarily 64 has version 1.00!!!!
so i traded him my disc for his
huehuehue
UpB OP

Uair OP too, lucky >[

 

[Violence]

Geist, next time you find the time to go to SFU Surrey, I think left my controller down there. It's silver and has a piece of duct tape wrapped around the cord near the plug.

If you could grab it, it'd be much appreciated.

I've been stuck practicing tech with my backup backup controller(I gave my backup to Brandon because of the ****ty excuse of a controller he'd been using, figuring I wouldn't need it anytime soon) and it's so annoying.

I can't ftilt 100% of the time... this makes me so sad...