Evo 2k8 Brawl Finals

[Izaw]

Nooo! Keeen ;<

Items are even worse then Wifi <.<

 

[Deleted member]

all i will say is that i have watched the matches lol

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Item Haters vs Item Players

And?
Items are a part of the game. If you only train without them, you're going to be at a disadvantage if you play with them, and these matches illustrate that incredibly well. If Ken had known how to use items well, he would've stomped CPU without remorse, but he didn't. Seriously, he picked up a hammer against a freaking ROB.

Bobson. I completely agree with your thoughts. But don't you see? This is why there is always a war between Item Haters and Item Players. They wouldn't like us to post in every item-free tournament comments like" Hey dudes! You should play with Items! ". They would get angry if we do that. But.. When there is a "different" tournament for us Item Players to enjoy, based in our believes about item skills, etc. They just come and criticize, flame, and bother. You are not tolerant, you just want all tournaments to be Item-free, otherwise, you will flame it. Even if some other people want to enjoy it as an alternate way of competition, you will still mess with it. We respect your item-free tournaments, we watch them and would participate on them. You are not open minded. You are stubborn or your ideas make you reject item play. Then at least respect those who are different. You should stop that attitude and act more like grown-ups, really.


P.D. This is something I've said a million times, item haters just don't get it because they don't want to.
It is not skill about controlling the randomness of item appearing. That is not possible. What we are talking about is :

1. Both: Getting the item (it could need some skill or it could just be luck)
2. Offense: Using the Item ( if you are wise, you get the most advantage of it)
3. Defense: Avoiding the Item ( if you are wise, you will get the minimum damage from it)

The point is. Item create different situations you have to adapt to. In a long match, let's say 5 stock. The player who has the best overall skills ( hand to hand and with items, both defensively and offensively), would probably win. Those who plays with items competitively learn to adapt to weird situations. To run, hide, and fight while in disadvantage. It is much more complex and much more interesting. If you don't want to accept this , so you can at least respect those who like to compete this way. Then have some tolerance and respect and walk away.

 

[N M E]

.D. This is something I've said a million times, item haters just don't get it because they don't want to.
It is not skill about controlling the randomness of item appearing. That is not possible.

But the fact That Items spawn RANDOMLY Tips the match/stock in favor of the person closest to the item. I don't see anyskill involed in picking up an item.

An Bob-Omb spawn near me while trying to to do a smash attack at 60-80% i just lost a stock because of luck.

Or i get a smart bomb spawns (again luck) near me I and i throw it hits my opponant and dose 40 damage and even if i miss it still can do 40 damage.

There are so many ways item can screw you over, It's just sad.

Luck=/=Skill


I think i know why so many people are hatein on Evo.

1. They didn't listen to the community when making there ruleset.

2. Items were on (If items are played they should at least be put on LOW)

3. There stage choice was terrable. Sky world ,Nofair WtF!

4. the commentary sucked.

 

[MTD]

But the fact That Items spawn RANDOMLY Tips the match/stock in favor of the person closest to the item. I don't see anyskill involed in picking up an item.

An Bob-Omb spawn near me while trying to to do a smash attack at 60-80% i just lost a stock because of luck.

Or i get a smart bomb spawns (again luck) near me I and i throw it hits my opponant and dose 40 damage and even if i miss it still can do 40 damage.

There are so many ways item can screw you over, It's just sad.

Luck=/=Skill


I think i know why so many people are hatein on Evo.

1. They didn't listen to the community when making there ruleset.

2. Items were on (If items are played they should at least be put on LOW)

3. There stage choice was terrable. Sky world ,Nofair WtF!

4. the commentary sucked.

nothings wrong with norfair, skyworld i can understand

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

idk what to say.... what a joke brawl is.

 

[Retroking2000]

i wish CPU was a member on here

i would have loved to read his thoughts

14 year old man thats young already winning tourneys

the kids got talent

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

i wish CPU was a member on here

i would have loved to read his thoughts

14 year old man thats young already winning tourneys

the kids got talent

if it were a good game... i would be impressed... this however.... just wow... so pathetic

 

[Vall3y]

the reason items are never going to be competitive is because too many people dont want to play with items, doesnt matter if they take skill or if the luck isnt a big factor
LOL@ people in this thread
and dont worry for ken he is going to win many more tournaments in the future and im sure 2nd place got a nice prize too goooo ken

 

[Nintendude]

wow...wtf did I just watch...

 

[Mew2King]

Nope sorry, Helen told me Ken doesn't want to play Brawl anymore, and that he went to Evo Vegas for a vacation after being in China for a while.

 

[xxxn00b4lyf3817xxx]

Im sad to see ken leave brawl after only the first EVO, but if items are going to be used in the next one I don't blame him. Bobson, just the pure fact that something is random in a game is enough for people to dislike it. People don't like random events which can shift the tide of a match in any game by pure luck, they want to see strategy, mind games, win through pure skill etc. Im not saying that's not possible with items on but it severely hinders them in brawl since 1 thrown bumper can k0 someone at what 50%? 1 thrown item which is faster than most moves in brawl and having such k0 potential is anything but fair.

 

[Lobos]

lol Evo sucks....not only for having items on but because its only on the west coast....

 

[metaXzero]

Nope sorry, Helen told me Ken doesn't want to play Brawl anymore, and that he went to Evo Vegas for a vacation after being in China for a while.

For some reason, I lol'd.

 

[boss8]

wow CPU sucks

 

[Baky]

Looking on the SRK forums and seeing the massive amounts of ******** really frustrated me but now I see that the same percentage of ******* exist here.

Bias statements are overlooked merely because a majority of the population share the same opinion. In fact, many of the players here suggest that item play is far from competitive and know this for FACT. Well you arrogant pissheads, your way of playing is the most common way of playing competitively but is not the only way to play the game competitively.

Lets not consider one style or the other better but merely state that without items is the mainstream.

(I'm not an item player. I hate items being on.)

EDIT: Smashballs are a bit ridiculous. lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

i am going to try and be respectful here
imagine if you will this situation

the infamous daigo super parry video.
imagine if right before chunli initiated her super a small orb appeared over kens head that after he jumps to get it ken gains the abiltiy to auto parry any move used against him for 5 seconds. what would have happened?
the exact same thing that was in the vid would have happened, and daigo would have won, but it wouldnt have been the same, and argument could have been made (and very easily) that the better player didnt win, and those ppl would probably be right. because a random occurance gave daigo a powerup strong enough to cancel chunli's super and than turn right around and do 50% damage back to her.

if the parallel situation happened in smash even once (and i can promise that it has) than that is enough of a reason to never use items in a competitive environment

i have no problem using items when playing for fun, because thats what brawl is, a fun game, but random elements should be negated as much as possible, when a game is being played competitively, for money, will the EXPRESS purpose of finding out who is more skilled at the game

 

[echos]

i didnt even finish watching the first match.... time and items is not how this game should be played competitively. It's not how it was played in smash's previous predecessors it's not how it should be played now. Random elements will always take away from a games skill point of view. I don't care i know it's all opinion but i guarantee most people will agree with me that items + time = failure

 

[the_suicide_fox]

Looking on the SRK forums and seeing the massive amounts of ******** really frustrated me but now I see that the same percentage of ******* exist here.

Bias statements are overlooked merely because a majority of the population share the same opinion. In fact, many of the players here suggest that item play is far from competitive and know this for FACT. Well you arrogant pissheads, your way of playing is the most common way of playing competitively but is not the only way to play the game competitively.

Lets not consider one style or the other better but merely state that without items is the mainstream.

(I'm not an item player. I hate items being on.)

EDIT: Smashballs are a bit ridiculous. lol

You can't seriously believe a 14 y/o kid, who has NEVER been to a tournament before, legitimately beat one of Smash's elite. In an interview, CPU even admitted that he didn't practice much before the tournament and that items helped him to do better than he thought he could do.

Items add too much randomness too the game. In these vids, it seems as if Ken refused to use the items on most occasions, as he purposely ignored some biggies like Smashballs and the homerun bat. This obviously put him at a disadvantage somewhat, b/c CPU went for almost every item that popped up on the stage. However, when there were no items present you can clearly see Ken devastating CPU. He had a better spacing game, mind games, defense AND offense, killing CPU with standard attacks (mostly). CPU's KO's came mostly from items.

I guarantee you that if you had them replay the same stages w/o the items, Ken would 3-0 CPU and probably 2-3 stock him each match.

Items made the skill gap between Ken and CPU so insignificant that the result was random. Items should not be for tournaments, where the results reflect the skill of the player.

 

[Nick Nasty]

You can't seriously believe a 14 y/o kid, who has NEVER been to a tournament before, legitimately beat one of Smash's elite. In an interview, CPU even admitted that he didn't practice much before the tournament and that items helped him to do better than he thought he could do.

Items add too much randomness too the game. In these vids, it seems as if Ken refused to use the items on most occasions, as he purposely ignored some biggies like Smashballs and the homerun bat. This obviously put him at a disadvantage somewhat, b/c CPU went for almost every item that popped up on the stage. However, when there were no items present you can clearly see Ken devastating CPU. He had a better spacing game, mind games, defense AND offense, killing CPU with standard attacks (mostly). CPU's KO's came mostly from items.

I guarantee you that if you had them replay the same stages w/o the items, Ken would 3-0 CPU and probably 2-3 stock him each match.

Items made the skill gap between Ken and CPU so insignificant that the result was random. Items should not be for tournaments, where the results reflect the skill of the player.

I completely agree with this statement. It saddened me to think that the main reason that CPU could take stocks away from Ken was due to the fact that he was using items.

 

[Baky]

You can't seriously believe a 14 y/o kid, who has NEVER been to a tournament before, legitimately beat one of Smash's elite. In an interview, CPU even admitted that he didn't practice much before the tournament and that items helped him to do better than he thought he could do.

Items add too much randomness too the game. In these vids, it seems as if Ken refused to use the items on most occasions, as he purposely ignored some biggies like Smashballs and the homerun bat. This obviously put him at a disadvantage somewhat, b/c CPU went for almost every item that popped up on the stage. However, when there were no items present you can clearly see Ken devastating CPU. He had a better spacing game, mind games, defense AND offense, killing CPU with standard attacks (mostly). CPU's KO's came mostly from items.

I guarantee you that if you had them replay the same stages w/o the items, Ken would 3-0 CPU and probably 2-3 stock him each match.

Items made the skill gap between Ken and CPU so insignificant that the result was random. Items should not be for tournaments, where the results reflect the skill of the player.

1. It was legit. He won. There was no outside interference or hacks involved.
2. IT WAS AN ITEMS TOURNEY. If it was a tourney without items then I would also expect Ken to 2-3stock him every match.
3. In the interview CPU said that he had practiced with the EVO ruleset. He appeared to have had superior knowledge of items-on smash.

Yes its random but what you all need to understand is that tiers with items on are completely different than with them off. The basic techniques that we are familiar with while items are off do not play as large of a role. Mindgames are completely different.

Yes, with items off the game is less random and in fact more appropriate for competitive play, but items-on is not non-competitive.

SWF is just as arrogant about the game as SRK. The only difference is that we know more.

Regardless, arrogance is arogance. I also get the impression that we are elitist as well but I suppose the two tie in together.

 

[Samochan]

Imo, it wasn't as much due to items that Ken lost than the fact that he could barely punish CPU for his dodge spam and whatnot due to brawl's ridiculous dodge engine and his own relative inexperience with it. >_> It makes it so that Ken could hardly use his melee experience and mindgames against CPU, seeing as there weren't any holes to punish them with marth. Just buffer a sidestep and vòla, you dodge everything, from marth's forward b to down tilts. <_< It does sadden me though that ken didn't use a single counter, barely used fsmash tipper and comboed into it for the kill and that Rob is more capable of getting the smash ball and it's 10x times better than marth's. Add in the fact that CPU probably had more brawl experience and especially item experience as well and you have a winning combination. CPU hardly did any reading here, used lasers, items and gyros when far away and when Ken got close, loooootss of sidestep and dsmash spam, more items, final smash etc. I don't think I saw a single powershield or shieldgrab either. Funnily enough, if Ken had been to using character with lingering hitboxes, he'd have punished CPU every single time he spot dodged.

I do think that neither really deserved to win though. While Ken has tourney experience and whatnot, he lacked in brawl experience and what CPU made up with his brawl experience, he lacked in mindgames and that type of stuff. Wasn't there 1 person who was actually considered fairly good in Brawl as opposed to newbie and tourney virgin? <_< When it comes down to it though, CPU's brawl experience counts more than his lack of mindgames and I do think he deserved to win more than Ken did, but doesn't mean I think he deserved to win that amount of money usually reserved for way better players with this kind of performance. <_<

 

[Ethan.]

i didnt even finish watching the first match.... time and items is not how this game should be played competitively. It's not how it was played in smash's previous predecessors it's not how it should be played now. Random elements will always take away from a games skill point of view. I don't care i know it's all opinion but i guarantee most people will agree with me that items + time = failure

seriously?


They were using stocks, with a time limit. Your knowledge of smash is obviously limited.

 

[Baky]

Imo, it wasn't as much due to items that Ken lost than the fact that he could barely punish CPU for his dodge spam and whatnot due to brawl's ridiculous dodge engine and his own relative inexperience with it. >_> It makes it so that Ken could hardly use his melee experience and mindgames against CPU, seeing as there weren't any holes to punish them with marth. Just buffer a sidestep and vòla, you dodge everything, from marth's forward b to down tilts. <_< It does sadden me though that ken didn't use a single counter, barely used fsmash tipper and comboed into it for the kill and that Rob is more capable of getting the smash ball and it's 10x times better than marth's. Add in the fact that CPU probably had more brawl experience and especially item experience as well and you have a winning combination. CPU hardly did any reading here, used lasers, items and gyros when far away and when Ken got close, loooootss of sidestep and dsmash spam, more items, final smash etc. I don't think I saw a single powershield or shieldgrab either. Funnily enough, if Ken had been to using character with lingering hitboxes, he'd have punished CPU every single time he spot dodged.

Finally someone who can post a comment that doesnt **** ride the rest of SWF or a post that says "lol items".

The thing I was concerned about was the fact that Ken picked Marth the entire tourney. I suppose he only plays his favorite character but I would not expect Marth to do well with items. I would expect Falco to be one of the best choices but I'm not familiar with the items-on tiers. (Who is? lol)

 

[the_suicide_fox]

Yes, with items off the game is less random and in fact more appropriate for competitive play,(considering that money is involved), but items-on is not non-competitive.

You contradict yourself here. You say that items-off is better for competition but then say it's ok to have item-on in competitions.

You can have competitions with items on, but it doesn't mean that the best player will win. CPU did a good job of rolling away from Marth's FS on 2 occasions, I'll give him that. However, other than showing he was decent with items, he didn't show much skill in other areas, especially spacing and straight up fighting. In fact, CPU went for items more often than fighting and most of the damage/KO's were from items.

It's not a matter of SWF being elitist. It's a matter of balance. Items unbalances the game to the point that the outcome is significantly more random than with items turned off. Random outcomes =/= fair competition.

EDIT: To Samochan, Ken doesn't play Brawl. However, he has enough experience with the Smash series to know what to do and what not to do in most situations. Ken isn't stupid and it wasn't like he was playing an entirely different game like Halo or something. He still beat all the other competitors in the tournament, which goes to show his Smash skills exceed the average player's, regardless of whether it's Brawl or Melee (or 64?). He did make a lot of mistakes, and probably COULD have punished CPU better in most cases, but even so without the items CPU would have most definately lost.

 

[Samochan]

The thing I was concerned about was the fact that Ken picked Marth the entire tourney. I suppose he only plays his favorite character but I would not expect Marth to do well with items. I would expect Falco to be one of the best choices but I'm not familiar with the items-on tiers. (Who is? lol)

He probably did so cause marth plays fairly the same as his melee counterpart, his lack of character experience on brawl meant that picking other char than marth would have yielded worse results.

 

[Baky]

You contradict yourself here. You say that items-off is better for competition but then say it's ok to have item-on in competitions.

If you read my post I also suggest that items-on and items-off are nearly different games. There are different tiers and etc. I merely stated that if a variation of the game is chosen as mainstream then the most fair one would be most appropriate. You are saying that items are not for competition what-so-ever because they are not competitive. I'm saying that EVO items-on rules is competitive but items-off is better as the mainstream.

You can have competitions with items on, but it doesn't mean that the best player will win. CPU did a good job of rolling away from Marth's FS on 2 occasions, I'll give him that. However, other than showing he was decent with items, he didn't show much skill in other areas, especially spacing and straight up fighting. In fact, CPU went for items more often than fighting and most of the damage/KO's were from items.

Like I said before. Playing with items changes the game entirely from what we are used to. CPU's knowledge of item usage was apparent in the third match which gave him enough advantage to win. (Plus a Final Smash). Honestly, if the Final Smashes were out of the items-on rules then I'd expect people to accept the outcome. (I'd also expect CPU and Ken's matches to be close but Ken winning in the end).

It's not a matter of SWF being elitist. It's a matter of balance. Items unbalances the game to the point that the outcome is significantly more random than with items turned off. Random outcomes =/= fair competition.

I continue to say that the mainstream of items off is appropriate in comparison but items-on is far from unacceptable.

Yes, I appear on both sides of war on items but really I'm on neither side. I like tournies with no items and I like playing with no items. Tourneys with items do not affect me because I do not go. They do not affect you because you do not go. Yes they will have less people show but apparently its satisfying.

A 103 person item tourney is impressive. Good job EVO. (Yes I realized that the entry number would have doubled if items were off.)

EDIT: The point that I am getting at. Is that an items tourney is acceptable. An items tourney of EVO caliber is acceptable. 103 is satisfying to them. Mainstream rules are better for tourney of that caliber because it will most likely satisfy their players but like I said. 103 is satisfying to them.

Regardless, next year will be better.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

He probably did so cause marth plays fairly the same as his melee counterpart, his lack of character experience on brawl meant that picking other char than marth would have yielded worse results.

Not to mention that Marth is actually fairly unchanged from Melee compared to the other veteran fighters. It's even the same character model >.< or close to it.

EDIT:

I see what you mean Baky. The problem comes from people who believe it takes equal/more skill to win an items-on tournament compared to an items-off tournament. This is just untrue, as I pointed out earlier.

I have no problems with people running items-on tournaments. I won't goto them, like you said. Hell, they can run a 99-stock 2.0 damage ratio lightning Brawl tournament for all I care. I just wanted to point out that even though you can play with items-on it doesn't demonstrate you are truely competitive at the game. The mainstream methods are there for a reason, because they are the most fair and balanced, and thus are a true test of skill.

 

[Baky]

I see what you mean Baky. The problem comes from people who believe it takes equal/more skill to win an items-on tournament compared to an items-off tournament. This is just untrue, as I pointed out earlier.

I have no problems with people running items-on tournaments. I won't goto them, like you said. Hell, they can run a 99-stock 2.0 damage ratio lightning Brawl tournament for all I care. I just wanted to point out that even though you can play with items-on it doesn't demonstrate you are truely competitive at the game. The mainstream methods are there for a reason, because they are the most fair and balanced, and thus are a true test of skill.

Sorry if I appeared pro items and confused you.

And items-on does demonstrate something if you win. That you are decent with items on. (Assuming smashballs arent on. They are broke). Also, lets not consider anything a true test of skill. We shouldnt consider our beliefs absolutely true.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

I would actually consider the homerun bat more broken than most FS's >.<

When thrown, it can kill you at extremely low %, no matter who you are.

 

[Baky]

I would actually consider the homerun bat more broken than most FS's >.<

When thrown, it can kill you at extremely low %, no matter who you are.

but what about super sonic. D:

you wouldnt consider him more broke? D:

I mean...if you have perfected it you are capable of getting TWO stocks off a person in a 1v1.

 

[SLAYERCoLdKiLr]

You know what, I take back everything I said about how items ruin the game. I've been reading what people thought of Brawl at Evo and man, it is overwhelming.

If they turned off Items, brawl would be so boring to watch and they probably wouldnt take it back.

With items on, people see it more as entertainment than an actual competitive game.

So with that in mind, Keep Items on Evo. Without items, people would camp, make the game boring for the rest of the fighting community.

I'm very pro items right now. Lets just break every kind of respect for this game and let it bee seen with toy hammers, food items, and star rods. That will show em brawl is a competitive game!

 

[the_suicide_fox]

Right, which was the goal EVO was going for. However, if they hope to do more business in the future, they need to increase their fanbase and attendance. Bringing in more hardcore players would be a better choice, especially if they tweak the items (they can keep them on but just turn off some of the TOO powerful ones). Hopefully next year the rules won't be as unbalanced as full items-on but not as "boring" as standard competitive matches.

Though when you know everything about the game, it's exciting. I get bored watching some MvC2 vids, bc I have no idea what they are doing.

 

[Brightside6382]

i wish CPU was a member on here

i would have loved to read his thoughts

14 year old man thats young already winning tourneys

the kids got talent

No the kid doesn't got "talent". I can dissect his entire game just by watching these matches.

Spot dodge whenever they get close and punish. That's all he did and he won a pretty decent sized tourney. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. Brawl isn't a good game.

 

[ddonaldo]

not only did the better player clearly lose due to items, but brawl is losing even more respect. if they really insist on putting items on, remove invincibility and broken items -______-

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I will give a 2 simple facts to demonstrate that to win an item tournament is something great.

1. Most of you are SCARED a noob would win to you because of an item. In a 1 stock match you would be very careful not to loose to a noob and it could happen. The more stock, the less probable it is. So, why is that? You need to be MUCH MORE skilled than your opponent. If you are just a little more skilled you could loose. But if you are way ahead there is no possibility you would loose in a 5 stock match. Then, IT IS HARDER TO REMAIN DOMINANT IN A VARIABLE ENVIRONMENT.

2. Items add a whole new dimension of gameplay. As boxes, bombs, assist trophies, pokemons, etc are flying at the stage, you have to dodge, stay away from danger and continue fighting (this is more exciting in 4 player battles). Additional to mindgames, tactics, etc for hand to hand combat, you have the same for all related to items. And there are a lot of them! Sometimes two or more items create a situation you never saw before, and you have to adapt to that! That is very exciting. YOU HAVE TO BE SKILLED IN MUCH MORE ASPECTS and that plus point 1 makes it harder to remain dominant.

I proved this myself.: I went to an item tournament. There was like 5 rounds, 4 player FFA (less competitive as some say, but keep reading). The 4 best players I saw in there made it to the finals. Rounds were enough for that to happen. And, the champion was me. And guess what? I didn't loose a single round. I was first place in all of them. If item combat is so random, how did that happen? I was not THAT much skilled compared to the rest. But I was dominant. I remained winner. So, ITEM MATCHES ARE COMPETITIVE IN THEIR OWN WAY.


About Ken loosing. Yeah yeah.. he had more mind games, spacing, bla bla, but this was an Item Tournament, and no one pointed a gun to his head for him to compete. He also needed item skills, and while he was not bad with them, CPU was better. Both skills were needed to win.

About smashballs. The truth is that some Final Smashes are better than others for 1 vs 1. And some are better in some stages. This game is about 4 player battles after all. So you cannot criticize the game because it was not meant for what you want to turn it into.
And, you say, mr. X final smash is broken. Well, it is his final smash. It is his fifth move he have access to when he gets the smash ball. Falco has a better projectile than Mario and no one say it is broken.

There is also some strategy in getting the smash ball. You could just go crazy and run for it, but you could also punish your opponent first and then get it. You could be more precise and land a good strong move to get it. To reach it, to get it, to fight for it. You need some skills. When someone gets it, you can still get it away from them. Or, you could avoid him or take minimum damage. That also requires some skills. Every final smash (besides Sonic) can be avoided. So a final smash is not a free kill.

Also, you should consider that some characters benefit from item play (those with reflectors) and those who are good with weapons ( Ice Climbers, sheik, C. Falcon). On the other side, quick characters can get items more easily (not the smash ball) and avoid hazards more easily too. Skills like crawl, wall cling are useful to avoid disasters.

 

[Baky]

No the kid doesn't got "talent". I can dissect his entire game just by watching these matches.

Spot dodge whenever they get close and punish. That's all he did and he won a pretty decent sized tourney. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. Brawl isn't a good game.

Quit investing your time watching brawl vids if you hate it so much. GTFO

not only did the better player clearly lose due to items,

It was an items tourney. CPU was apparently better with items. If you watch the third match look at his usage of the items and notice how he used all items effectively.

CPU won. CPU is better than Ken in an item tourney.

Ken is better in a nonitem tourney. Just because non-item play is dominant and you prefer to play with them does not mean that you are qualified to determine who is the better player.

CPU won. CPU knows his items. CPU knows his Final Smash. Why continue to complain about this?

 

[Deleted member]

hahaha better with items lol

hopefully these matches will sway something to happen in the competitive/high competitive scene or...maybe theyll just keep adding more items lol

 

[Fonz]

That was actually kinda entertaining. Man normal tourney matches are god awful to watch.

 

[manacloud1]

vegas was fun , did i mention ken won a 30 dollar hand of black jack on the first try?