EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?

[RanserSSF4]

Here's a couple of disagreements I have with your post:

1) Faster that Brawl by itself doesn't mean much at all if the movement options are still lacking.

2) I haven't even played the game and I can tell you with certainty that it isn't the case that the whole cast is viable in competitive play.

It's also quite frustrating seeing people this willing to drop Melee for an untested game, but it's not terribly surprising. It's understandable, but depressing.

i do think smash 4 needs a couple more movement options, but it's still faster than brawl. i do agree though that we should still give smash 4 more time!

 

[dizzkidboogie]

I think it's hard to say much about Smash 4 since it still hasn't come out for WiiU, and even the 3DS version won't have had enough time to be well enough understood by the time EVO selection comes around to warrant inclusion. I love Melee; I think it's highly competitive and very deep (I play as Ice Climbers, and even though they have some "unwinnable" matchups like Peach, I greatly enjoy working to improve my understanding of the game to increase my chances of winning any matchup.). If only one Super Smash Bros. game were to be included at EVO 2015, I would like for it to be Super Smash Bros. Melee.

 

[Tagxy]

For the record:
+Complaining that smash 4 will be filled with new people is the opposite of convincing
+No ones opinions on smash 4 gameplay is worthwhile, but particularly those attempting to minimize its 'competitiveness' in order to push their preferred game.
+Dont trust analysis of Brawl unless the player was actually competitive and decently good at it in the last couple years, again particularly those attempting to push their preferred game.

I understand its not everyone and am glad to see many being reasonable, but it's disturbing to see some people trash on something they don't play or understand. In general most attempting to trash talk the opposing game aren't particularly aware of the game, its value, or its scene.

Agreeing with most people actually supporting their game though.

 

[Senario]

Melee because I feel it has proven to have a lot of people come out to support the game at a big event like EVO plus it is still interesting to watch for many.

No offense to smash 4 fans but how many of you that say Smash 4 should go to EVO actually will GO TO EVO? Pay for the plane ticket if you don't live nearby? Pay the entry fee? Pay hotel costs? And any other costs you get for being in the area (if you get a rental car, go get some food, ect ect)? Bringing a game to EVO isn't simply just voting on your favorite, it has to have a big enough group of people who would do all of the above to make it popular.

And Melee only just got to be one of the biggest events at the Tournament. I feel that right now it is the better choice between the two since smash games take a while to establish a good concrete ruleset. They don't have a preset mode like other fighting games where it is automatically the final ruleset. Even Melee had a few years where the west coast still allowed items, and it took forever to get to a stagelist that didn't have stage hazards or the usual things we see as a problem now. Also it was initially a 5 stock game (possibly due to 64's stuff).

 

[Geoffrey Lee]

Definitely melee. Over the last few years our community proved how far it's willing to go out of love for the game. Melee fought for its spot at Evo and it should keep its spot. There's no reason why smash 4 should get to waltz in and reap the benefits of what the melee community built. Also we smash players are still sort of outsiders to the rest of the fgc. Better to put our best foot forward and show them gameplay we can really be proud of than risk another brawl fiasco and lose any semblance of respect we've fought for

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Melee because I feel it has proven to have a lot of people come out to support the game at a big event like EVO plus it is still interesting to watch for many.

No offense to smash 4 fans but how many of you that say Smash 4 should go to EVO actually will GO TO EVO? Pay for the plane ticket if you don't live nearby? Pay the entry fee? Pay hotel costs? And any other costs you get for being in the area (if you get a rental car, go get some food, ect ect)? Bringing a game to EVO isn't simply just voting on your favorite, it has to have a big enough group of people who would do all of the above to make it popular.

And Melee only just got to be one of the biggest events at the Tournament. I feel that right now it is the better choice between the two since smash games take a while to establish a good concrete ruleset. They don't have a preset mode like other fighting games where it is automatically the final ruleset. Even Melee had a few years where the west coast still allowed items, and it took forever to get to a stagelist that didn't have stage hazards or the usual things we see as a problem now. Also it was initially a 5 stock game (possibly due to 64's stuff).

I really don't have the option since its when my week long trip with my extended family is every year. I just wanna see something when I get home mostly.

If I had the option no matter which game was there, I would go.

Edit: Also can people stop saying vectoring ruins combos, it doesn't since the difference it makes below 70% is negligible. If you're going to talk down about smash 4, know what you are talking about.

Same with set-ups, that isn't a real issue.

 

[Vino]

So I was browsing Twitter earlier when I saw Mr.Wizard's tweet asking everyone what game they'd want at EVO, and among Smash games, the two most common replies were Melee and Smash 4.

Out of curiosity, I want to see the community's take on this.

If you could only choose one of the two Smash titles, SSBM or Smash 4, to appear at EVO 2015, which would it be?

Melee for sure. Smash4 needs more time to develop, Melee is a safe bet.

 

[soma ghost]

Hopefully the game that raised 95 thousand for cancer in 2013 and brought just shy of a 1000 competitors in 2014.

 

[BarDulL]

i hate the framing of this question; why not both? would be pretty sweet. i mean, evo had sf2 and sf4 a few years right? granted evo is really big on the 2d fighting game genre (sf, KoF, etc.), but they'd definitely be making a lot of money to include both games. i think it's arbitrary to assume that they'd ONLY take one game even though smash isn't historically their top priority.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Commitment and passion > New game hype

 

[quuser]

Melee.

If Mr. Wizard is truly looking for the game that is more wanted, as opposed to the game which will generate more money, then hopefully another vote for melee will help.

Smash 4 will have it's chance but EVO is not the stage to prove itself.

 

[Dawson Kremer]

So I was browsing Twitter earlier when I saw Mr.Wizard's tweet asking everyone what game they'd want at EVO, and among Smash games, the two most common replies were Melee and Smash 4.

Out of curiosity, I want to see the community's take on this.

If you could only choose one of the two Smash titles, SSBM or Smash 4, to appear at EVO 2015, which would it be?

I think smash 4 for sure. Smash 4 is the best.

 

[JFM2796]

I think having both would be the ideal situation, but if I had to pick one it would be Melee.

I think many people here don't realize that Smash is still a controversial game at Evo. This isn't a grassroots event, this is the biggest fighting game tournament of the year. It's hard enough to get one Smash game let alone two, and despite having changed a lot in the past few years there's still a notable amount of resentment among the traditional FGC of having what was conceived as a party game on their big stage. We've made great progress in showing that the series has enough merit to be played at this level, but there is still a degree of skepticism among the fanbase of traditional fighters. Just look at what some of them were saying during Armada and HBox's sets.

That's why I'd rather go with the game that has been proven to work and we can proudly showcase to a large audience and have be fun to watch (look at the stream numbers -- they speak for themselves) rather than taking a huge risk on new game that could go either way at this point. It's unlikely, but if it ends up going the way Brawl at Evo did in '08/'09 we may not see any Smash at Evo 2016. Why risk something the Smash community worked so hard for when the only payoff is the possibility that the crowd may enjoy Smash 4 more than Melee?

Keep in mind there's more that can harm a game's viability at an event like this than just "Is it a slow poke fest": Ruleset discrepancies are a big part of that. It's likely that a ruleset will be figured out by July but what if we get another Meta Knight situation where the community is split? There is a very real possibility that could happen, and even if Nintendo can be bothered to patch it said patch could introduce a new issue.

So it could go two ways:

• Melee remains at Evo. The game is generally well received, likely gets more viewers/attention and maybe more entrants than the previous year. Smash 4 is likely streamed as a side event, but has also remained relevant among established Smash games thanks to official Nintendo tournaments. Come this time in one year we should have Smash 4 figured out by now. If ends up being a viable competitive game but lacks what is needed to make it fun for spectators then lucky us, we didn't take the opportunity to show that to the skeptical FGC on their home turf. In the event that Smash 4 does end up being a better showcase of what high level Smash can look like while being better for spectators lucky us, we can put it in Melee's spot for Evo 2016.
• Smash 4 gets placed at Evo. There are many possible outcomes due to the uncertainty surrounding the game. The best case scenario is it has an extremely hype showing and raises likely a similar amount of viewers as Melee would have. The worst case scenario is that it is a complete disaster for whatever reason (the game is a pokefest/slow, the community is split on rulesets, one character is Meta Knight levels of dominant, etc.) and Smash is removed from the lineup at Evo 2016. Hell for all we know Nintendo could get super involved and make them run the tournaments in the Invitational/Comic Con style with FFA items. I'm sure the FGC would love that.

Is the risk worth the reward? Or can we wait and see what's going on with this game before we gamble our treasured spot at the biggest fighting game tournament?

As for what I expect to happen I think Smash 4 will end up being at Evo 2016 over Melee mostly because Nintendo's going to push it and because the "shiny new game" effect (that will likely be faded by this time next year) is going to make people want it on the center stage.

 

[baka4moé]

I want melee. Melees pretty dang hype.

 

[Project-]

Who outside of Melee's community cares about a 13 year old game

Stupid question when you take into consideration the number of people Melee JUST pulled in for Evo 2014.

I'm trying to see the other side of the fence here but I still haven't seen a single convincing argument for Smash 4, just lots of speculation on how the game MIGHT play and some "lol smash4 is betr xD"

 

[Auramaniji]

I'd like both, it would be an enriching experience between old and new.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Hopefully the game that raised 95 thousand for cancer in 2013 and brought just shy of a 1000 competitors in 2014.

Miyamoto could literally hand the Cannons (lol if you dont know who they are) 100 wii us AND a hundred thousand dollar charity check and not even batt an eyelash. So this point is worth less than nothing honestly.

And to the people talking about the massive stream numbers melee had at evo as a justification to let them keep the spot... how many stream viewers did the 16 man invitational tournament have vor smash again?

 

[Bones0]

If Melee hadn't earned its way back into Evo, would there even be a discussion for Smash 4's inclusion? Would there be any doubt about Melee's return if Smash 4 wasn't about to be released? If most Melee players were moving onto Smash 4, it'd make sense to revert to the newest game in the series, but that's not the case. Most Melee players, especially the skilled ones who have been playing for years, are not going to prioritize Smash 4 over Melee or even play it at all. Why then, would the Smash 4 community be entitled to REPLACE Melee at Evo? Let me emphasize this point: Smash 4 would not only be receiving a spot at Evo it did not earn, but it would be at the cost of a game and community that HAS earned it.

It's no secret Evo traditionally includes the most recent iteration of a series, but Melee has been an exception the past two years, and both Evo and Melee have enjoyed success from this return. If the Smash 4 community wants to play their game at Evo, I think they should have to earn it the same way every other community has. Obviously there is more overlap between Melee and Smash 4 than most games of different series, but I don't think there is enough overlap to consider the communities one in the same. They are very much distinct entities, and there's already a prominent community Melee players who do not plan on playing Smash 4, and vice versa. Frankly, if I was a Smash 4 player, I'd feel guilty and ashamed to take Melee's spot solely because my game was newer. At the core, this debate has very little to do with which game is better and much more to do with the communities behind the games.

If anyone truly believes the Smash 4 community, which hardly even exists yet, has earned a spot at Evo, not just compared to Melee, but with all of the other fighting games, then you should go ahead and vote for Smash 4. If, however, you share my perspective that Melee's spot should be reserved for Melee so long as the community continues to support the game they love and Evo every year, then I hope that you will vote for Melee. To the staff and organizer at Evo, I can only say that I have the utmost respect for their tournament's legacy, and I'd like to believe a game that has been supported to the extent Melee has earned more than to simply be discarded at the sign of a new game.

For the record, I hope both games are able to enjoy a proper Evo experience, however unlikely that may be. Despite all of my distaste for Smash 4 as a competitive game, I have no basis for depriving the Smash 4 community of a chance to prove their worth on the main stage as long as it's not at the expense of Melee. To me, it is no different than how I view Street Fighter or Skullgirls or Marvel. It's a community that wants to play their game at Evo.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

If Melee hadn't earned its way back into Evo, would there even be a discussion for Smash 4's inclusion? Would there be any doubt about Melee's return if Smash 4 wasn't about to be released? If most Melee players were moving onto Smash 4, it'd make sense to revert to the newest game in the series, but that's not the case. Most Melee players, especially the skilled ones who have been playing for years, are not going to prioritize Smash 4 over Melee or even play it at all. Why then, would the Smash 4 community be entitled to REPLACE Melee at Evo? Let me emphasize this point: Smash 4 would not only be receiving a spot at Evo it did not earn, but it would be at the cost of a game and community that HAS earned it.

It's no secret Evo traditionally includes the most recent iteration of a series, but Melee has been an exception the past two years, and both Evo and Melee have enjoyed success from this return. If the Smash 4 community wants to play their game at Evo, I think they should have to earn it the same way every other community has. Obviously there is more overlap between Melee and Smash 4 than most games of different series, but I don't think there is enough overlap to consider the communities one in the same. They are very much distinct entities, and there's already a prominent community Melee players who do not plan on playing Smash 4, and vice versa. Frankly, if I was a Smash 4 player, I'd feel guilty and ashamed to take Melee's spot solely because my game was newer. At the core, this debate has very little to do with which game is better and much more to do with the communities behind the games.

If anyone truly believes the Smash 4 community, which hardly even exists yet, has earned a spot at Evo, not just compared to Melee, but with all of the other fighting games, then you should go ahead and vote for Smash 4. If, however, you share my perspective that Melee's spot should be reserved for Melee so long as the community continues to support the game they love and Evo every year, then I hope that you will vote for Melee. To the staff and organizer at Evo, I can only say that I have the utmost respect for their tournament's legacy, and I'd like to believe a game that has been supported to the extent Melee has earned more than to simply be discarded at the sign of a new game.

For the record, I hope both games are able to enjoy a proper Evo experience, however unlikely that may be. Despite all of my distaste for Smash 4 as a competitive game, I have no basis for depriving the Smash 4 community of a chance to prove their worth on the main stage as long as it's not at the expense of Melee. To me, it is no different than how I view Street Fighter or Skullgirls or Marvel. It's a community that wants to play their game at Evo.

That was Beautiful.

 

[lokt]

Miyamoto could literally hand the Cannons (lol if you dont know who they are) 100 wii us AND a hundred thousand dollar charity check and not even batt an eyelash. So this point is worth less than nothing honestly.

And to the people talking about the massive stream numbers melee had at evo as a justification to let them keep the spot... how many stream viewers did the 16 man invitational tournament have vor smash again?

I think people are referring to the donations from ordinary people to get melee into evo as an example of the passion and commitment to the game, not about whether nintendo or the community gives evo better publicity.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Here's a couple of disagreements I have with your post:

1) Faster that Brawl by itself doesn't mean much at all if the movement options are still lacking.

2) I haven't even played the game and I can tell you with certainty that it isn't the case that the whole cast is viable in competitive play.

It's also quite frustrating seeing people this willing to drop Melee for an untested game, but it's not terribly surprising. It's understandable, but depressing.

My thoughts exactly. And I have played the demo, so #2 sounds legit

 

[SiSu]

If one had to be chosen I'd say Smash 4. We need to show Nintendo that we appreciate their attempt to make Smash 4 more competitive and them embracing the competitive community

 

[MudkipUniverse]

If one had to be chosen I'd say Smash 4. We need to show Nintendo that we appreciate their attempt to make Smash 4 more competitive and them embracing the competitive community

More competitive then what? they made it more competitive then brawl, but smash 64 and Melee are more interesting to watch, and are more competitive

 

[Zork]

I'm still questioning in what way Smash 4 is more competitive than Brawl based off what we've seen so far aside from no tripping. As I said in my previous post, you seem to have less options in Smash 4 than in Brawl while recoveries have been buffed and survival DI has been replaced by "just hold towards the stage every time".

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I'm still questioning in what way Smash 4 is more competitive than Brawl based off what we've seen so far aside from no tripping. As I said in my previous post, you seem to have less options in Smash 4 than in Brawl while recoveries have been buffed and survival DI has been replaced by "just hold towards the stage every time".

soo.... It would suite 5 year old me?

 

[SiSu]

More competitive then what? they made it more competitive then brawl, but smash 64 and Melee are more interesting to watch, and are more competitive

Regardless if Melee and 64 are more interesting, this is the game that Nintendo made with the competitive community in mind, we need to show them our gratitude and thanks. Melee has been around for almost 14 years, it will still be huge but it's time to share the spotlight a bit

 

[Zork]

soo.... It would suite 5 year old me?

Basically yeah. You no longer have to know about the opponent's kill moves and how to DI them. You have one method that works best for all. This is a major step back from all Smash games including Brawl. Oh newbies had trouble recovering? Let's remove ledge hogging and make it more free to do than ever before.

After all the talk of making Smash 4 a better competitive game I expected much more than what I'm seeing right now and this coming from an avid Brawl player. Heck they literally left in exploits from Brawl (such as Wario still being able to be grab released).

The only real great improvement I've seen so far is online because of less lag and For Glory mode giving people a competitive venue online without having to resort to forums like this to seek out players. Though even then to consistently face good players (the pairing seems to be random instead of being some sort of ladder system and we all know your average smasher is mediocre) you'd still probably have to resort to that.

 

[phokdapolees]

Regardless if Melee and 64 are more interesting, this is the game that Nintendo made with the competitive community in mind, we need to show them our gratitude and thanks. Melee has been around for almost 14 years, it will still be huge but it's time to share the spotlight a bit

We don't owe Nintendo anything. They've kicked the competitive community aside for years, and now that they're making a game that's only a little faster than Brawl and hosted a few tournaments, we're supposed to be thankful? Screw that, we should keep playing the game that WE pushed for to be at Evo.

 

[Nine]

Melee is the way to go
LET'S GO!!!

 

[SiSu]

We don't owe Nintendo anything. They've kicked the competitive community aside for years, and now that they're making a game that's only a little faster than Brawl and hosted a few tournaments, we're supposed to be thankful? Screw that, we should keep playing the game that WE pushed for to be at Evo.

And you're a perfect example of an ungrateful **** who doesn't deserve anything. This attitude will only show Nintendo that the community doesn't give a damn about their efforts and they could go back to making Smash like Brawl because we don't care. Good attitude buddy

 

[Galespark]

There is a poll in the Shoryuken website asking which game should be featured at EVO15, please vote:

http://shoryuken.com/2014/10/03/evo...super-smash-bros-melee-or-super-smash-bros-4/

 

[phokdapolees]

And you're a perfect example of an ungrateful **** who doesn't deserve anything. This attitude will only show Nintendo that the community doesn't give a damn about their efforts and they could go back to making Smash like Brawl because we don't care. Good attitude buddy

I'm not an "ungrateful ****", I'm just not going to blindly accept Nintendo going "yeah sorry, we ****ed you guys over for the past 13 years" and then making a game that's barely faster than Brawl.

 

[Zork]

There is no evidence to suggest Smash 4 is any faster than Brawl yet. If anything it seems slower.

Again go watch those Nietono vs Abadango matches. Or most sets from that tournament really. 4-5 minute matches on two stocks is slower than Brawl on average.

I think this is partially because while fall speeds might have been improved overall, there are bigger blast zone boundaries than ever before+vectoring and recovering being painfully easy.

 

[EmLeingod]

Smash 4. The Melee community needs to learn a lesson.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

More competitive then what? they made it more competitive then brawl, but smash 64 and Melee are more interesting to watch, and are more competitive

Smash 4 and Brawl have more depth than smash 64, I'd even say smash 4 is more interesting than Smash 64 or even brawl.

If people took Smash 64 seriously, it would be far worse than Brawl in terms of being campy and degenerate gameplay.

 

[Mpact]

Melee because I like watching Mango and Armada/Hbox duke it out in top 5. Oh and it's much more exciting to watch.

 

[Tagxy]

Still promoting both games, but making a statement against certain melee community segments trying to bash on Smash 4.

RE: Melee earned its spot at EVO over smash 4
Melee didnt earn a spot at EVO, the smash community did. Its ungrateful to steal all credit that was a community wide effort, to just push one game.

RE: The game is too new and undeveloped
A 13 year old game is the exception of EVO. Most games are new, I believe Injustice was added very quickly after its launch (USFIV too even though SSFIV:AE had been out longer and was more developed. Not as many significant changes, but you have to expect people didnt have as much familiarity). Im not sure why this is a big deal anyways if people enjoy it.

RE: Smash 4 isnt proven to be as successful as melee
One third of a million viewers, the number of people who watched the smash invitational and highest stream viewership record for a fighter, disagree. Smash 4 streams have been extremely popular and even reddit, the litmus test for a games popularity has been filled with smash 4. If the game wasnt doing great it wouldve been dismissed.

 

[2sÿ.4letterword]

Melee has one of the most developed meta-games of any fighting game and two years consecutively has pushed the limit for what was possible in terms of viewership for EVO. It fought its way in and has shown absolutely no signs of slowing down since. To now steal its brightest light on the coat-tails of its greatest year to give an up-in-the-air-at-best (literally not even out on console yet) fighter its slot is nonsense.

Part of those sponsorships everyone loved to see come in is the visibility of said sponsors. Gambling unnecessarily with the future of smash at evo should be laughed off.

And since obviously a lot of posters on smashboards don't follow the FGC, the inclusion of street fighter updates as a parallel to the justified replacement of melee is nonsense. It's the difference between 6.81 and 6.82 in dota vs the difference between dota/dota 2.

 

[Alien]

**** melee I'm sick of throwing my back out carrying those goddamn CRT's into the venue. The melee community is just afraid of change because most of those kids have been dumping a majority of their time into the game over the past 5 to 10 years and don't want to see it all go down the drain.If melee somehow gets in, have fun watching the same match-ups 3 years in a row, I know I'll be doing something better.If they both get in, totally cool. That would be preferred, but if I had to take my pick? Smash 4. Give it a chance, let the community expand out of the same set of players and character match-ups we've had for years. I play melee competitively, not as long as a lot of the "veterans" but I still love it deeply, but there's a point in time when you need to be ready to move on. These same condescending players have been **** talking smash 4 before anyone even got a preview of it at the invitational.And to all the melee players who are saying "oh someones gonna find a broken mechanic and ride their way to the top… etc"
You mean like wobbles did with wobbling? lol ok scrubs.

 

[2sÿ.4letterword]

**** melee I'm sick of throwing my back out carrying those goddamn CRT's into the venue. The melee community is just afraid of change because most of those kids have been dumping a majority of their time into the game over the past 5 to 10 years and don't want to see it all go down the drain.If melee somehow gets in, have fun watching the same match-ups 3 years in a row, I know I'll be doing something better.If they both get in, totally cool. That would be preferred, but if I had to take my pick? Smash 4. Give it a chance, let the community expand out of the same set of players and character match-ups we've had for years. I play melee competitively, not as long as a lot of the "veterans" but I still love it deeply, but there's a point in time when you need to be ready to move on. These same condescending players have been **** talking smash 4 before anyone even got a preview of it at the invitational.And to all the melee players who are saying "oh someones gonna find a broken mechanic and ride their way to the top… etc"
You mean like wobbles did with wobbling? lol ok scrubs.

Ironically you wrote a horrible, condescending reply.

Who takes anybody who tells melee players to "just move on" seriously? More than a decade after release it had its largest tournament year. Is that at all representative of a game that either players or spectators are interested in just dropping?