EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?

[King of Mars]

Melee is great, but I'm ready for Smash 4.

 

[SmashChu]

This topic is about Evo, a fighting game tournament. It is not about MLG or other esports event. Smash 4 is not a successor fighting game to Melee. It is in fact very arguable if Smash 4 can be a fighting game at all, but it is certain that Sakurai did not develop it as one. The point is that you cannot apply how other fighting game communities embrace sequels to the case of Smash, because Smash 4 is not a fighting game successor to Melee.
I fail to see how Smash 4 is not a successor to Melee. Last I checked, both have "Super Smash Bros." in the title.

And I'm comparing Smash to other games. Really I'm comparing the community. You all ain't special snowflakes. It's odd when other communities are willing to try their hand at a new game in a tournament fashion but Smash players aren't.

You know what is the best message we could send to Nintendo? That they did not develop the competitive fighting game that we really wanted. Vote with your wallet.

Yeah, and Brawl sold 11 million and is still the best selling Smash game despite the community hating it. I don't think the wallet thing is going to mean much. And that's my point really. Nintendo doesn't have to give you guys anything. Brawl proved that they don't have to care and can make a game that appeals to a wider variety of gamers and make more money doing it. By not supporting Smash 4, you're telling Nintendo that your opinions don't matter.

And again, why is it such a big deal to have a new Smash Brothers game at a big tournament.

 

[gsninja]

I'm pretty mixed...Smash 4 will still be a new game without an established competitive scene, while Melee is Melee. If I have to choose, though, I'd say Smash 4.

 

[luketavius]

I think the issue is the Smash community can't let go. For every other game, everyone always jumped to the new game. Street Fighter 4 replaces 3S. Dota 2 replaced Dota. Starcraft 2 replaced Starcraft 3. Halo 3 replaced Halo 2. And so on. I don't see a good reason to stick to an old game.

All of the games you're listing are sequels. Melee already got its sequel, Brawl. And a lot of Melee players DID move on to the new game. However, many of those players, despite trying their best to enjoy this new game, just didn't like playing it as much as Melee. It lacked the competitive depth that Melee had to offer and favored more defensive play, which is far less exciting. It's taken years to build up the Melee community again and now it's bigger than its ever been.

With Smash 4 looming in on the horizon (I'm specifically referring to Wii U), many Melee players will try the new game, but don't want to see this community that's taken years to rebuild fall down again because of this new game. It's not that they can't let go - they have in the past - but that they don't want to lose their game and all of the favor it's had. People have played the new game, and while I agree there is still a LOT to discover, as of right now it doesn't appear to favor the same sort of offensive gameplay that Melee does. That's certainly subject to change, but this is just how it's been analyzed so far.

The Smash community has lived well recently with multiple games, as most tournaments offer at least Melee and PM, and the bigger ones offer Brawl and sometimes even 64. I'd like to see Melee and Smash 4 at EVO for this reason, and since Melee has had some really good numbers at EVO these past 2 years, I see good reason for them to host it

 

[SmashChu]

All of the games you're listing are sequels. Melee already got its sequel, Brawl. And a lot of Melee players DID move on to the new game. However, many of those players, despite trying their best to enjoy this new game, just didn't like playing it as much as Melee. It lacked the competitive depth that Melee had to offer and favored more defensive play, which is far less exciting. It's taken years to build up the Melee community again and now it's bigger than its ever been.

Smash 4 is a sequal to Melee as well.

So, OK, now you have Smash 4 which addressed those problems. So I fail to see what the problem actually is.

With Smash 4 looming in on the horizon (I'm specifically referring to Wii U), many Melee players will try the new game, but don't want to see this community that's taken years to rebuild fall down again because of this new game. It's not that they can't let go - they have in the past - but that they don't want to lose their game and all of the favor it's had. People have played the new game, and while I agree there is still a LOT to discover, as of right now it doesn't appear to favor the same sort of offensive gameplay that Melee does. That's certainly subject to change, but this is just how it's been analyzed so far.

I thought this was the Smash Brothers community. And it's not the exact same as Melee so you should not have Smash 4 in a tournament. This doesn't even make sense. SF4 was different than 3S yet they had no problem making that the main game. SF 4 is a lot more defensive than 3S. Again, I fail to see an actual problem.

The Smash community has lived well recently with multiple games, as most tournaments offer at least Melee and PM, and the bigger ones offer Brawl and sometimes even 64. I'd like to see Melee and Smash 4 at EVO for this reason, and since Melee has had some really good numbers at EVO these past 2 years, I see good reason for them to host it

Oh, so we're the Smash community now. I like how you change it to fit whatever you're trying to push.

And you make the point of Melee had good numbers. Great. Then put Smash 4 up there so it can get off to a great start. But let me guess, you don't want that because Smash 4 would be the new game and not Melee. See, that's the problem. It's not that you all want to support Smash, you want to support Melee and Melee only. See having Smash 4 at EVO would be great for the series, but it wouldn't be Melee and that's the problem. See, this is why people are hostile to Melee players. They don't want to let go. They want to live in 2001 forever. At least the community played Brawl. They didn't try to push it away like they are doing now.

I think it's safe to say Melee needs to die.

 

[pershona]

Smash 4. Melee is still great, but give the new game a chance.

 

[josh bones]

Smash 4 is a sequal to Melee as well.

So, OK, now you have Smash 4 which addressed those problems. So I fail to see what the problem actually is.


I thought this was the Smash Brothers community. And it's not the exact same as Melee so you should not have Smash 4 in a tournament. This doesn't even make sense. SF4 was different than 3S yet they had no problem making that the main game. SF 4 is a lot more defensive than 3S. Again, I fail to see an actual problem.


Oh, so we're the Smash community now. I like how you change it to fit whatever you're trying to push.

And you make the point of Melee had good numbers. Great. Then put Smash 4 up there so it can get off to a great start. But let me guess, you don't want that because Smash 4 would be the new game and not Melee. See, that's the problem. It's not that you all want to support Smash, you want to support Melee and Melee only. See having Smash 4 at EVO would be great for the series, but it wouldn't be Melee and that's the problem. See, this is why people are hostile to Melee players. They don't want to let go. They want to live in 2001 forever. At least the community played Brawl. They didn't try to push it away like they are doing now.

I think it's safe to say Melee needs to die.

THat's why we're all still playing street fighter cross tekken right? Because release dates are somehow more important then quality?

 

[Firestorm88]

Super Smash Bros 4 for Wii U obviously.

• Smash 4 should get them higher viewer numbers riding the wave of new players it will bring in.
• Smash 4 will see more entrants with the amount of people who have been waiting for the new game to start out.
• Smash 4 will be way easier to run as it won't require CRT TVs.

The only thing Melee has going for it is a more developed metagame. If that were still the case, Evo would still be playing Street Fighter II as its main game and have never grown beyond what it was. We wouldn't have had Ultra Street Fighter IV at Evo this year at all as it was even less time between release and the game.

If Smash 4 bombs then they can give it up but saying Melee at this point is just childish whining by people who don't understand how competitive video games evolve.

Nintendo was an Evo sponsor last year. They didn't do it to promote a 13 year old game. They did it to promote the new one and it's out now.

 

[SmashChu]

THat's why we're all still playing street fighter cross tekken right? Because release dates are somehow more important then quality?

That's a nice strawman there. You and I both know that Smash 4 is nothing like SFxT. The latter is literally broken and will even freeze when the knife touches any projectile.

 

[josh bones]

That's a nice strawman there. You and I both know that Smash 4 is nothing like SFxT. The latter is literally broken and will even freeze when the knife touches any projectile.

The point was that being new is not more important than being a good game, which smash 4 has not shown signs of (yet)

 

[Sparklepower]

And I'm comparing Smash to other games. Really I'm comparing the community. You all ain't special snowflakes. It's odd when other communities are willing to try their hand at a new game in a tournament fashion but Smash players aren't.

You're drawing a false equivalence. The sequels to Melee are a very unique case. Smash brothers was never designed to be played one on one with neutral stages with competitive rulesets. Melee was very successful at this simply because it was a deep game. Brawl and smash 4 simply aren't designed the same way. Other fighting games, and games like Dota and SC2, were still designed to have competitively play work in the same fashion, but when Brawl was created they simply didn't care about competitive melee, and smash 4 is quite obviously much more modeled after Brawl.

Yeah, and Brawl sold 11 million and is still the best selling Smash game despite the community hating it. I don't think the wallet thing is going to mean much. And that's my point really. Nintendo doesn't have to give you guys anything. Brawl proved that they don't have to care and can make a game that appeals to a wider variety of gamers and make more money doing it. By not supporting Smash 4, you're telling Nintendo that your opinions don't matter.

And again, why is it such a big deal to have a new Smash Brothers game at a big tournament.

I don't see how game sales are relevant, the poster you were replying to was saying that if smash 4 didn't appear at EVO, it would give them the message that they didn't design the kind of game we wanted, and would make it more likely that the next smash game actually is designed with more competitive depth. If I must poitn it out though, the Wii sold about 5 times as much as the Gamecube, and smash was much more well known at Brawl's release than Melee's. Sales don't indicate a game's quality, and especially not in this case.

As for why it's a big deal to have the new game at EVO:
1) A lot of people don't want to lose out on seeing Melee this year, when the new game is simply not going to be a interesting to watch
2) We have to bring in a question of whether or not the new smash is a game for EVO. I, among many other fighting game fans, could name tons of fighting games that would be much more exciting to see at EVO, but probably never will because they simply don't have the following that smash does. You have to consider if this is a game that would be exciting at EVO, if it's the kind of game that was designed to be at EVO, and if it's worth losing Melee over.

 

[luketavius]

I thought this was the Smash Brothers community. And it's not the exact same as Melee so you should not have Smash 4 in a tournament. This doesn't even make sense. SF4 was different than 3S yet they had no problem making that the main game. SF 4 is a lot more defensive than 3S. Again, I fail to see an actual problem.

[...]

I think it's safe to say Melee needs to die.

You're calling this the Smash Bros community, but then you say Melee needs to die? You make it sound like you're a supporter the Smash community, but you can't be if you want one of the games to die. That's more like the Smash 4 community, and while it's the newest game, it's only a quarter of this series.

My point was that Melee's growth IS growth for the entire Smash community. I believe Smash 4 deserves it's chance at EVO, but it's also important to note that if would never have had a chance if Melee wasn't the way it was. I want to see both games there, but I know that if one isn't there, the community will still thrive. We'll have Melee tournaments and Smash 4 tournaments for years to come. I look forward to having both together like we do for Melee and PM now (and I hope PM can stick around). We've lived as grassroots for a long time and if we have to we can keep doing it.

I don't want this community to tear itself apart again, and comments like yours are the ones that will do it.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Meleephobia is real.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're drawing a false equivalence. The sequels to Melee are a very unique case. Smash brothers was never designed to be played one on one with neutral stages with competitive rulesets. Melee was very successful at this simply because it was a deep game. Brawl and smash 4 simply aren't designed the same way. Other fighting games, and games like Dota and SC2, were still designed to have competitively play work in the same fashion, but when Brawl was created they simply didn't care about competitive melee, and smash 4 is quite obviously much more modeled after Brawl.

As evident by the treehouse and what Nintendo has added, they obviously cared a hell of a lot more than they did in the past. Otherwise we wouldn't be getting adapters and brand new first party GameCube controllers.

Smash 4 might be closer to Brawl but the care to take away all the jank that was bad in Brawl and readd better things for comp play is pretty clear in the game itself. If people don't like it, it's because it doesn't feel close enough to Melee. And I get and understand this.

The issue is when people want to try and see change happen, and to me, Smash 4 replacing Melee isn't going to happen without a lot of friction. That much is clear. And to be quite frank, I do not see it happening with a huge backlash in some form if Evo did boot it. Some people still want something new, which is unfortunate with the friction on change, but still makes sense given the rebirth of Melee recently.

PM is not the answer either, no mod will be and it would be insane to think Nintendo would endorse that as a main game.

I'm still 100% for both being there if possible, but again dunno how likely that is given how rare that has happened at Evo.

 

[vileguy]

THat's why we're all still playing street fighter cross tekken right? Because release dates are somehow more important then quality?

Release dates aren't more important than quality, but quality isn't determined 2-3 months before the game has even released. If in 4 months the community decides Smash 4 is unplayable, make the decision then, but nobody has played anything but a demo at this point of the Wii version, and the 3DS version isn't lacking quality. I think the way you're using the word quality is far too subjective.

Smash has 4 games (5 if you count the 3DS, which you shouldn't). Each one that comes out is a sequel to the next. It makes no sense to argue otherwise. The community made competitive Melee, but they didn't make Melee, Sakurai and team did. It's perfectly fair to consider Melee the closest to perfection and the new game inferior, but it's a sequel. The same mentality was directed at SF4 and Blaz Blue (inferior to their literal and figurative predecessors) but Evo adopted them as did the majority of the fighting game community. The Smash community doesn't have to move on from Melee like SF players moved on from Third Strike, but there are plenty of people who will.

Smash 4 should be considered equal to Melee in terms of the respect it deserves and the opportunity for it to be played competitively and featured at Evo. If people don't like it after 2015 and Melee remains the most popular game, then Melee should get its spot at Evo back. I don't plan to play Melee competitively, but I'm more than happy to support it. I just want to see Smash 4 at Evo at least once.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Evo is a long ways from now so we should see what comp Smash 4 looks like on the way too Evo, right now it looks very defensive heavy like brawl but it does have MUCH more potential. Hopefully by Evo we will have a better understanding of the games meta and how it can be played at a high level. As of right now with a lot of for glory I've played its based around rolling and downsmashing, hopefully the meta can evolve into something way more interesting.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Evo is a long ways from now so we should see what comp Smash 4 looks like on the way too Evo, right now it looks very defensive heavy like brawl but it does have MUCH more potential. Hopefully by Evo we will have a better understanding of the games meta and how it can be played at a high level. As of right now with a lot of for glory I've played its based around rolling and downsmashing, hopefully the meta can evolve into something way more interesting.

Low level play is playing like that.

When people actually learn how to punish rolls, think of it like playing against Brawl Lucario I guess, then it's really easy.

 

[Sterling Ford]

Because Melee is the much better competitive game. That's a fact

Have you watch Smash 4 tournament that came out after October 3rd, 2014

 

[Pumpinz]

love reading these giant walls of text about why smash 4 is infinitely better than melee and then looking over and seeing a 2014 join date.

 

[Firestorm88]

love reading these giant walls of text about why smash 4 is infinitely better than melee and then looking over and seeing a 2014 join date.

lol how do you join a community and make fun of those who joined just a year later as somehow having less valid opinions? Get over yourself.

 

[greenluigiman2]

Evo is a long ways from now so we should see what comp Smash 4 looks like on the way too Evo, right now it looks very defensive heavy like brawl but it does have MUCH more potential. Hopefully by Evo we will have a better understanding of the games meta and how it can be played at a high level. As of right now with a lot of for glory I've played its based around rolling and downsmashing, hopefully the meta can evolve into something way more interesting.

For Glory is not a good indication at all. Check out KTAR X, which happened yesterday. The only matches uploaded to Youtube are doubles, which was pretty dull, because doubles is a lot less developed than singles, but the singles matches were aggressive and intense. Especially all the matches involving Jtails. It's not Melee aggressive, but it's not Brawl defensive either. It seems like a very good balance. The Wii U version will be a good fit for the EVO audience I think.

 

[Diabolical]

Have you watch Smash 4 tournament that came out after October 3rd, 2014

Did you watch Big House 4?

 

[greenluigiman2]

Did you watch Big House 4?

Are you guys really comparing a major tournament for a game with a long established metagame to a makeshift tournament for a game that came out a month ago played on a handheld? Both you and Sterling Ford's arguments make no sense.

The jury's still out on how competitive Smash 4 will be compared to Melee, and even then it's a subjective matter. Everybody will have their own opinion, and any idiot that states an opinion as a fact shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Are you guys really comparing a major tournament for a game with a long established metagame to a makeshift tournament for a game that came out a month ago played on a handheld? Both you and Sterling Ford's arguments make no sense.

The jury's still out on how competitive Smash 4 will be compared to Melee, and even then it's a subjective matter. Everybody will have their own opinion, and any idiot that states an opinion as a fact shouldn't be taken seriously.

Hey guys remember 2008?

I remember 2008.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah I don't see this going anywhere positive anymore so Ker-lock.

 

[Juggleguy]

Also, I said "5 characters in the S/A tier" not "5 characters", so it's pretty clear that you didn't even read what I said before you spouted all that. I ignored your wobbling comment, because it's equally dumb. Nobody thinks wobbling is broken anymore except Juggleguy and people laugh at him for banning it at TBH all the time.

I don't think wobbling is broken at all.

Something doesn't have to be broken for it to be bannable.

Please don't put words into my mouth.